Some days I'm a Catholic, some days a hypocrite

[DellieM]

I am an Atheist who happened to be a 'birth partner' for a friend. The baby was born and she is beautiful and both mum and the baby did very well. The father left the room for every contraction, every checkup for progress, the insertion of the cathedar, the epidural and it was me who was present for the c-section. I was the first person to hold her. You get it, I was involved.

3 days after the birth, I am told that I am going to be godmother. "Umm, no, I'm not, as I'm not only not a practising Catholic, I am an Atheist". I'm told it doesn't matter to them and that I should just go through the motions. I tell them that I would find that very offensive and not respectful to those who are devout. Then I find that the mother is still married to her previous husband, has this baby with the current partner but is a devout believer and a member of the Catholic church.

Ummmm ...... did I miss something? Is being a believer a changable sort of thing? :dubious:

[Darmund]

Get over yourself and be the Godmother. Who cares if you don't believe, if the mother doesn't? Be there for your friend. Why would you be offended on behalf of people who don't share your nonbelief?

-Darmund, the atheist

[hajario]

It's possible to believe and still fall short of perfection. That said, I wouldn't go through the ceremony if I had no intention of following through with what a godparent is supposed to do. Would you take up the burden of the kid's Catholic upbringing if the parents died?

[Inner Stickler]

Are the parents going to raise the kid Catholic? I rather doubt that. Also, if the mom is married to someone else then I find it highly unlikely that she'll find a Catholic priest who'd be willing to perform the baptism ceremony. I say don't sweat it. I don't know what the societal expectations for a godparent in Australia are, but in the US they mean a gift on birthdays, Christmas, and sacramental milestones.

[Tasteslikeburning]

I was recently asked to be the Godfather for friends' newest born. I told my friends that even though I'm technically Catholic, I identify as Agnostic and don't have any real love for organised religion. Despite that, they are still happy for me to be the Godfather because they view the role as being less about religion and more about being a mentor for their child.

Anyway, the reason why I tell you this is because as long as you are honest with them about your personal beliefs and they are ok with it, I think you should be flattered that they want you to be a part of the kid's life.

[The Second Stone]

I'm with you on this. It is not okay to stand as God parent in a Catholic Church if you aren't serious about it. (I am not a Catholic and do get offended on their communion stance, but that is another matter.) The Catholic ceremony means that you are ready to take on their education as a Catholic. A Protestant baptism usually means that you undertake the bringing up of the child as a Christian, which is much broader. You wanna be "Aunt Dellie", that is what you already are.

[Solfy]

The Catholic church is very clear on the point that both godparents need to be Christian, and at least one godparent needs to be a Catholic of "good standing." Good standing, as I understand it, means someone who belongs to and attends the church, with no cause for excommunication.
My brother had to get a letter of recommendation from his parish's pastor validating that he was a full member of his church to be godfather to my daughters. Their godmother is my SIL, who is not Catholic and only needed to affirm that she was Christian.

Ironically I don't know that we could work the same arrangement today should we have a third child. My brother came out and is in a very happy, loving, and commited relationship with his boyfriend. They've been attending a Presbyterian church that is much friendlier toward GLBTs. (just another one of my problems with the ol' RC church) My brother was just as gay five years ago, but as long as you're pretending to go along with their rules I guess that's okay with them.

[Uthrecht]

If the parents want you to be called "godparent", and that you hang around and be a member of the child's extended family, I don't see a problem with that. That's kind of how I always viewed them, but I'm not Catholic so don't know the intricacies.

If they're talking about having you show up at a Catholic ceremony, participate in it, make any kind of oaths about a religion you flatly don't believe in, and agree to help guide the child in a religion you don't believe in, then yeah, I'm not convinced you should be doing it. I mean, I can understand if you like the kid and they need help learning their catechisms and you sit down with them. That's private and between the two of you. You standing by them in a cathedral as their witness to something, to me would debase the fact that you don't believe in it. That's the job of those that believe in it.

I suppose it ultimately comes down to: is this a religious title? Would it have religious requirements? Do YOU think it compromises your beliefs to essentially be a practitioner of that religion, then?

[Hot Cross Buns]

I would kindly decline. She might be in a bind to find suitable candidates, but technically all she really needs is one godparent if she's going to have her child baptized.

In my experiences, the priest will want to meet with the godparents before the baptism. You do also have to make a promise relating to helping to raise the child up in faith. I can see how it potentially would make one uncomfortable and weird them out to go through that and know there's no meaning behind the words.

[3acres]

I agree pretty much with Uthrecht. I was godparent to a nephew (Christian, but not Catholic) despite the fact that I'm a known atheist. I went to the church ceremony, but there was no requirement for me to make any statement regarding raising him in the church. Heck, the parents knew I wouldn't teach the kid religion, if it had ever come to pass. I wouldn't have agreed if I had to promise the parents I'd raise him as a christian. (Now, if the parents told me flat out, in no uncertain terms: "Lie to the priest about the faith part", I would have done so.) At least in our family, the tradition was that a godparent was one who would raise the child if the parents died. Reliability and responsibility were important, but faith was not.

[Hot Cross Buns]

I found the script a Catholic priest follows when doing a baptism. You're welcome to read it through to get a sense of what one can expect during the ceremony and what the godparent says.

Baptism readings and prayers (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:BSEZ4h3lxvUJ:www.gsc.ac.nz/resources/Baptism%2520rite%2520generic%2520female.doc+the+ri te+of+baptism+readings+prayers&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari)

[Moon Dog]

Did everyone else miss this bit ?

Then I find that the mother is still married to her previous husband, has this baby with the current partner but is a devout believer and a member of the Catholic church.

What is the Catholic Church stance on this ?

[Solfy]

Did everyone else miss this bit ?



What is the Catholic Church stance on this ?

Presumably the same as a child born out of wedlock. From a Catholic church's booklet on baptism:

2. Can we have our child baptized if we are not married, or were married outside the Church, or if I am a single-parent?

Your child is always welcome to baptism, given a commitment to raising him/her according to the Catholic faith, and we welcome your entire family to our parish community. While the Church does not promote having children out of wedlock or having Catholics marry outside the Church in a civil ceremony or another denomination (without permission), this does not prevent children from being baptized, provided there is a reasonable assurance of being raised Roman Catholic.

The Church recognizes that, for whatever the reason, people will make choices in life that lead them in many different directions. The fact that you are here, reading this material, demonstrates that God is at work in your life. We would be most pleased to have the opportunity to discuss with you how we may be of assistance in facilitating your child's baptism and if there are other ways in which we may help bring God's love to you and your child.


From the same booklet:
Requirements for Godparents
They must be at least 16 years of age;
They must be practicing Catholics, registered in a parish;
They must be someone other than the parents of the child to be baptized;
They must be leading a life in harmony with the Catholic faith and the role they are about to assume.


As far as the church is concerned, anyone who was married in the church and has gone through civil divorce but has not obtained an annulment from the church is still married. Typically (from what I've seen) people only seek out annulment if they wish to be remarried in the church, so you end up with a lot of people that are still considered married to their ex while having children with a new partner, married or otherwise.

If a Catholic parent really wants to raise their child in the faith, I don't think the church is going to stand in the way of that. They may disapprove of the parentage, but that's not the baby's fault.

[Moon Dog]

Thanks. I truly am ignorant of the Catholic stance on these things.
So the baby to someone other than her husband while still married isn't an issue.
But the OP isn't truly eligible to be the Godparent then ?

[Solfy]

Thanks. I truly am ignorant of the Catholic stance on these things.
So the baby to someone other than her husband while still married isn't an issue.
But the OP isn't truly eligible to be the Godparent then ?

Not officially, though there are many people that are still registered to a parish because of former affiliation and might be able to squeak by. My parish has over 7,000 registered families. Generally ~40% of them show up on Sunday IIRC. If the mother has an eligible Catholic lined up for godfather, then the OP is mostly in the clear, provided she lies about being a believer. The priest isn't going to grill someone regarding their faith.

The odd thing to me is that if the baby's mother is as devout as indicated, one would think she'd want to play by the rules. The concept of an Atheist godmother makes as much sense to me as a vegetarian butcher.

[Uthrecht]

Well also, wouldn't this imply that the godparent is going to show up at services with the child during special events?

ETA: Don't mean to keep harping on it, but if true, I would view it as a bigger deal than a single lie to the priest.

[Zeener Diode]

Since this thread seems to be leaning towards the issue of godparents, I'll weigh in.
I was asked to stand in as godparent for the family which also selected me as Best Man at their wedding (they picked the entire wedding party as a couple). They were not active parishioners but both were raised Catholic and wanted to please their parents, who were also Catholic. When the second child was born, I agreed to stand in as the godparent, even though I had not attended regular services in years. The priest was okay with that.
The family today does not attend regular services, and they don't belong to any church. I doubt my goddaughter has ever been inside of a church since her grandmother's funeral ten years ago (she's 14 now). I've kept contact with them--- I'm a regular guest at meals and birthday parties--- but as a godparent my role has been largely ceremonial (and occasionally comical--- I'll do my Marlon Brando impression to elicit laughs). At first I was uncomfortable, because I knew as the godparent I should be emphasizing the role of religion in her life, but if the parents don't feel that way then I think I should abide by their decision.

[Solfy]

Well also, wouldn't this imply that the godparent is going to show up at services with the child during special events?


No. The godparents' presence is not required for any sacrement after baptism.
My godparents are no longer Catholic, no longer married, and I haven't laid eyes on them in about 15 years.

[Uthrecht]

Well, that's a bit boggling, but okay then.

[Randmcnally]

No. The godparents' presence is not required for any sacrement after baptism.

When I went through my first communion and my Confirmation they asked me if my godfather would go through the motions with me. Like many, I hadn't seen my godfather in years, so I just had my grandfather and brother, respectively.

[Solfy]

When I went through my first communion and my Confirmation they asked me if my godfather would go through the motions with me. Like many, I hadn't seen my godfather in years, so I just had my grandfather and brother, respectively.

It's not uncommon for a godparent to be a sponsor for Confirmation, but it's not a requirement. I had an uncle sponsor me. I've never heard of having one for communion. Interesting.

[the Lady]

I was my sister's sponsor for Confirmation.
I don't actually think mine or my middle sister's godparents are actually Catholic. Perhaps the Canadian RC's are different in that requirement.

[Eliahna]

I would never agree to be a Godparent because I have a problem with making promises I don't intend to keep, which means I could not in good faith vow to guide the child's spiritual development within the Catholic faith. I no longer even accept invitations to Christenings and Baptisms because I'm an atheist and don't think it's right to force religion onto a baby or a child.

Years ago, friends of mine held a naming ceremony for their daughter, conducted by a celebrant, with no religion involved. The celebrant formally bestowed the child's name, introduced her to the gathered family and friends, and named her uncle and I as her Guardians. We in turn promised to take care of her should anything happen to her parents. That was a promise I was comfortable making and a ceremony I was comfortable attending.

[spaceweft]

Since we're going toward godparental advice...

Potential godparent here, non-Christian. Am I allowed to be a godparent at all really? I have respect for people with faith so I'm terribly uncomfortable just "going through the motions" and flat-out lying to a priest about my faith and the renunciation of Satan etc.

I guess I'm wondering if it would be more insulting to my sister to turn down the honor, or to my brother-in-law to sin in his church?

- Weft

[Solfy]

Since we're going toward godparental advice...

Potential godparent here, non-Christian. Am I allowed to be a godparent at all really? I have respect for people with faith so I'm terribly uncomfortable just "going through the motions" and flat-out lying to a priest about my faith and the renunciation of Satan etc.

I guess I'm wondering if it would be more insulting to my sister to turn down the honor, or to my brother-in-law to sin in his church?

- Weft

Well, if you want to be a Catholic godparent, you have to be Catholic. Non-catholic "godparents" in the Catholic church actually have a different official title (Christian witness, I believe, which indicates a need to be Christian). I don't know what the rules are in other faiths.

Could you ask your sister why she wants you to be a godparent? I think it means different things to different people. Assuming you're comfortable with the role, I'd let them know where you stand regarding belief and let the parents decide. If you're uncomfortable, I'd like to think they'd respect that, too.

[Muskrat Love]

Has she made it clear that you are to be the "official" Catholic godparent? If not, that's fine (I've known a lot of people who weren't Catholic or even members of a church who had "godparents" for their kids), but if she wants you to attend the ceremony and essentially lie about your faith and your intentions to help raise the child as a Catholic, that is not right.

[spaceweft]

Could you ask your sister why she wants you to be a godparent? I think it means different things to different people.

I'm fairly sure my sister converted over to Catholicism for her husband's sake; I don't think her perception of "godparent" is anything I wouldn't be willing to agree to. Her husband however takes his religion rather seriously and will likely expect me to not give any ambiguous answers.

On the gripping hand*, Bro-in-law knows I'm not a good Christian but he hasn't objected to my sister's request. I suppose I shall suck it up and pretend for the ceremony.

- Weft

*That's a concept from "The Gripping Hand" by Niven and Pournelle, in case you aren't a scifi reader. Why yes, I am that much of a geek that I incorporate such things into real life.

[Muskrat Love]

*That's a concept from "The Gripping Hand" by Niven and Pournelle, in case you aren't a scifi reader. Why yes, I am that much of a geek that I incorporate such things into real life.

NITPICK - The phrase was first used in "The Mote in God's Eye".

[Moon Dog]

NITPICK - The phrase was first used in "The Mote in God's Eye".

I don't think the Moties are gonna fight about it, after all they have no spine.

Sorry. Going now.

[GreyCloud9]

ex-Catholic here, to chime in that my god mother flew in for my first Communion and my confirmation. In turn, when she and her husband were going through a divorce, my parents kept her kids for a week. And yet, we weren't close enough to the family to be informed of her death, and found out 2 years later.
We aren't Catholic, but have "God Parents" for our child, but the understanding is that they are to help keep her protected and make sure she is allowed to follow whatever religious path she wants to should we die.
We have also been named as "God Parents" of a fellow Heathen's child. The understanding there is that we will raise him if her boyfriend is unable to (not his son) and continue him on the path of the Heathen.
But no, I think I would personally decline if somone wanted me to lie in a holy sacrament.

[spaceweft]

NITPICK - The phrase was first used in "The Mote in God's Eye".

Gah! This is what happens when I try to post without first engaging my brain! Thanks for the catch.

- Weft