Questions for Atheists

[Doyle]

First let me say that most people I know who call themselves Atheist are very smart decent people. Also, most have put a great deal of thought into their decision to be an Atheist, probably more than most theists. I appreciate the consideration they have put into the subject and if that’s conviction they came away with, I respect it. With that said, I have a few questions.

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?


If you respond, please keep it civil and on subject. The purpose of this post is not to discuss the existence of God, but to help me understand the mindset and thoughts of

[blank]

I think the hostility comes from Fundamental Atheists- A bad lot just like Fundy Christians and Fundy Islamics.

[Muskrat Love]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?


1. I'm more along the lines of #2. I just stopped believing God was real around the time I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and I could no more change my mind and go back to believing than I could start believing in the Easter Bunny again. Since I believe it's possible our existence is simulated, I don't rule out the possibility of something akin to "gods" (though I don't believe the "real" reality that we might be a simulation of was created by an intelligence), but I don't see any evidence of them and tend to believe the simpler explanation.

2. I haven't read any books about atheism. I have seen some movies and read some articles about atheism, but it hasn't really done anything other than confirm that there are other people who think the way I do. I don't feel an urge to educate myself about atheism, any more than I feel an urge to educate myself on my disbelief in a flat Earth. It's not a philosophy, but an absence of one.

3. I'm not hostile towards organized religion as a whole. I'm a participating member of a Methodist church, and acknowledge that organized religion does accomplish some good things. I do believe that a total absence of religion would be a net benefit for the world - that there is less good coming from organized religion than bad. I think most organized religions and their followers do have a negative affect, but some do have a net positive.

4. I used to be pretty conservative in a lot of ways, though as I've grown older I've become much more liberal. Nine years ago I would have chosen Bush over Gore, though I didn't vote either way because I was unhappy about Bush's campaign tactics. I did not believe in AGW until about 4 or 5 years ago. I was anti-choice until I was about 20. Was a flat-tax supporter for a long while. I was against all forms of welfare until I was about 28. I was pro-death penalty for a long time, can't place exactly when my beliefs shifted on that, I think around my mid-20s. I thought of myself more as a libertarian than a conservative, though. To this day I am against affirmative action and gun control, but those are about the only conservative beliefs I still have.

One way I was always different from conservatives is that a lot of social conservatism that is based in religion never appealed to me. I never had a problem with gay marriage, premarital sex, pornography, or victimless crimes. I think that's what makes a lot of atheists liberal - they reject conservatism because of certain social conservative elements they can't comprehend because of their lack of religion. The others become libertarians.

[Victor Frankenstein]

Firstly, to be honest, I haven't given my atheist "belief" much thought. Simply, I find the idea of a superbeing in the sky hard to swallow. I believe gods to be an invention of man to explain things they don't or can't understand (or don't want to accept).

The concept of going on to an afterlife after you die is so much nicer then the thought that death is the end of "self". I can understand people leaning towards religion for that reason alone.


1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

It is both. Perhaps leaning more towards #2. I do not believe in a god because I find the concept highly illogical (to keep with my Spock avatar theme).

Even if I were to try, I don't think I could honestly convince myself a god existed.


It would be like a regular person try to convince themselves they can become invisible if they just hold a spoon to their nose (Let's call this Invisispooning). It makes no sense. So, consider this concept and ask yourself the same question and see which fits best.

1) Do you disbelieve or deny the existence of a Invisispooning.
2) The absence of belief in the existence of Invisispooning.

They both fit but not quite. How about this;

3) You do not believe Invisispooning is possible as it makes no sense.


2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

I don't normally read books or articles on atheism. Sometimes I'll read an article on the flaw within a religion (mostly based on something the religion claimed which was later proven to be false).


3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

If I have any hostility at all it would be directed at those which come to my house or bother me on the street and try to convince me to worship some magical being in the sky (or really anyone who says my belief system is wrong and I will suffer for it). Granted, if I felt like it was ok to stand in a pool of salt water while working on a live electrical breaker panel and someone told me I will suffer for it,.. I'm ok with that. It is a point being made based on fact and not based on something written thousands of years ago by simple people in a desert or jungle.

I don't go door to door or stand on the street telling people they will suffer forever if they don't convert to my way of thought.

I just find it highly offensive.


4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I consider myself fiscally conservative and socially liberal. When I lived in the states I registered as independent.

I'm sure there are lots of "conservative" atheists out there. In the states the Republican party is somewhat socially pushy. I would suspect there are a number of closeted Republican atheists. I would also suspect there are a number of regular church goers who are closeted atheists as well. Life in Smalltown USA reminds me of high school social cliques**. You have to fit in or people talk. If the town goes to church, you go to church.


**I've lived in large cities and two small rural towns - one small town for 6-7 years.

[Fromage A Trois]

To answer your questions as you asked them:

1. I'm best described by "absence of a belief". I do not find the evidence for belief compelling, therefore I do not believe. In The God Delusion, Dawkins puts forward the following classification (I've paraphrased a bit):

"I do not believe, I know".
"I cannot be certain, but I strongly believe in God and live on the assumption that he exists".
"I am uncertain, but inclined to believe God exists".
"God's existence and non-existence are equiprobable".
"I am uncertain, but inclined to believe God does not exist".
"I cannot know for certain, but I think the existence of God is very unlikely and I live on the assumption that he does not exist".
"I know there is no God, with the same conviction guy number 1 'knows' there is a God".

Dawkins puts himself in category 6, which is the same place I would put myself.

2. Most of the books I've read on religion actually have been written from a Christian POV. I've read The God Delusion, obviously, and I would recommend it to anyone who wants to understand Atheism. His tone is sometimes a bit, well, preachy - but if you can get past that, there's some good reading in there. What did I get from it? I learned about common religious arguments and what the atheist answers are, I suppose - and got some knowledge on which I could discuss these topics with other interested parties. I read a book from an agnostic point of view called In God We Doubt, which was interesting but (predictably) didn't draw any conclusions.

The best Christian POV book I've read is I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist, which is a bit like The God Delusion in that if you read it from the opposite POV you have to fight through the bits that you think "that's just plain wrong" to get to the good stuff on the other side. It was well-written and consistent, and put the case for Christianity (not just God) quite well - but obviously not convincingly or I would've selected number 1 or 2 in the list above! By contrast, the bulk of The Dawkins Delusion is essentially a list of Dawkins' points with "no it isn't" written next to them.

By reading Christian books, I come across statements or arguments which often the author takes for granted - and I see them and have to stop, and say "wait a minute, I disagree with your argument". I then think about it for a bit, and crystalise in my mind why I disagree. Which is much more useful if you ever have to discuss it with someone than just "I disagree". Without reading the book, the question would never have arisen and I would not have performed that exercise.

3. My main problem with religion is that you have to accept some things as true, no matter what. With an atheist perspective, you can be open to anything - even if it means you having to alter what you thought was true, but with a religious perspective you have to be closed to those things which challenge your beliefs. Opening your mind to the concept that no God has a plan for you, that you make your own destiny, that all the good you have done and everything you have achieved has been done by you, and not by God helping you (or whatever) can give you so much freedom. It's like the difference between getting that great job on your own merits, or because your dad is on the board of directors. And yes, an atheist can be open to the existence of God (see answer to question 1).

Organised religions have so much influence based not on the evidence that what they are saying is true but on their followers' faith that it is true. For example, the Vatican's stance on contraception in the third world. So many people will not make up their own minds (or even consider it an option) - they do what their religion tells them to. It's the mindset I dislike. I wouldn't describe myself as hostile, just disappointed.

4. Fiscally I'm reasonably conservative, but socially very liberal. I think the link between liberalism and atheism is the "as long as you're not hurting anyone, don't just follow authority - do what you want" ideology. I've simplified, but you probably see what I mean.

[Fish]

1. "The absence of belief in the existence of God" fits me better. I was never raised as a church-going lad, was never told what to believe. Believing in God was never high on the priority list for my mother. I would like to think that I have an open mind about the possibility, but frankly, it would take a miracle to change my mind, literally. I've studied too much history to think that God, or someone's idea of God, isn't just a sociopolitical bludgeon to be used to form government into one's liking.

2. I don't read books about being an atheist. There are no non-prayer meetings to attend, there are neither crackers nor juice, there are no special round hats to wear, no donations, and no required reading.

3. I harbor some hostility toward organized religion, but only when people in that religion are lying hypocrites, and no more than I harbor hostility toward people who are liars and hypocrites for non-religious reasons. People of all walks of life do insist on the right to think as little as possible, and as poorly as they can get away with. Religion doesn't bother me, per se. Hypocrisy, discourtesy, inefficiency, and illogic bother me. People who can't think for themselves really bother me.

4. No idea.

[blank]

Further to this- I'm possibly not an atheist as I do believe in a form of spirituality but one that I am intrinsically part of. It's a whole Gaia/humanity point of view. My beef with organised religion stems from the belief in the holy books- These have been reinterpreted so many times (usually to the benefit of the interpreter) and as these books point out- Man is fallible. That extends to the men that reinterpreted the books. Which means whatever honesty these books started out with, now no longer exists.

[timbicile]

If I can get some help can we do the 10 commandments of atheists.

In no order.

If their is a god why is he a dick?

Why do we need a god?

Why does he have to be so obscure and obtuse?

Why should I believe in something no one has evidence for?

[Doyle]

If I can get some help can we do the 10 commandments of atheists.

In no order.

If their is a god why is he a dick?

Why do we need a god?

Why does he have to be so obscure and obtuse?

Why should I believe in something no one has evidence for?

Thanks for not answering a single question posed and for completely disregarding my request.

[WednesdayAddams]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

The second. I tried to believe for a good chunk of my life mostly out of feelings of obligation to family and later husband. It didn't happen. I have always doubted and never been able to believe there is a god.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

Aside from a few books by philosophers who also happen to be atheists (Bertrand Russell, Sartre etc.) I have not read any books about being an atheist. Mostly it has to do with how to address philosophy and life with logic and reasoning and a minimum of spirituality/mysticism. As philosophy is all about learning and understanding, I find this a more positive approach than the fundamentalist atheist approach mentioned upthread. It is possible for religious and non religious people to be around each other without reaching the stage where they are spraying epithets and spittle in equal doses.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

I like Episcopalians for the most part. They're like, Catholic-lite.

From what I can tell, the hostility against organized religion is mostly against the political machine most organized religions insist upon turning into. If organized religions confined themselves to ministering to their flock, charity toward the needy and ministering to the sick and downtrodden I wouldn't have any issue with them at all. They do no such thing however. From what I can tell, there are a couple of approaches to humanity. One is observing people and thinking "This is the way people are. How do we deal with that?" The other is observing people and thinking "This is the way people should be. How do we make them that way?" Organized religion falls into the latter category which annoys many, me included.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I think that depends a great deal on your geographical locality. Certainly there are many atheist conservatives here in Texas who do not like the fact that the religious right is now the de facto base of the Republican party. Many of them are now Independents or Libertarians who believe in the core values of the Republican party: smaller government, fiscal conservatism, business friendly and personal freedoms. I keep encouraging them to take the party back from the church people but they seem disheartened.

Hope that helps.

[timbicile]

Lets try it like this.

1) there is no god.

2) there is no anti-bible i've read.

3) no hostility just a raised eyebrow.

4) what does religion have to do with me and my leanings?

5) blow me.

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

I'm going to post this one raw, without reading responses, so as to give the most honest, immediate answer I can give. While I'm not going out of my way to offend, I'm not going to pull any punches.

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

I don't like the word 'denies' -- I think it's loaded. I associated it with unthinking contrarianism or refusing to accept the obvious or trivial for political reasons (see: 'Holocaust denial'). 'Denies' need not have this connotation, but I think it has adopted it in its popular use.

Other than that, this is not a semantic debate I find myself caring too deeply about. The major thrust seems to be atheist-theist back-and-forths about trying to shift the perception of reasonability.

I'd call myself something of a 'Russel's teapot atheist.' Or, in a more important sense, an 'apatheist.' On the first, I find the concept of god so self-evidentally absurd that it shocks me that people would buy it, especially given what seems to me a transparent motivation behind the fabrication of various religions (I can get into this one more, if you'd like). I've tackled some theology over this, but I find it very unimpressive. Much of it seems to consist of tacking 'god can...' in front of a piece of nonsense or illogic and then sitting back and marvelling about it (call it 'stoner philosophy'). It also seems predicated on the necessity of a god (and some of it is, I accept that, but even those which purport to examine some non-specific 'god' in a broad, supposedly-logical sense are predicated on this).

As an apatheist, I figure along these grounds:
1. God(s) are not falsifiable.
2. God(s) either exists or does not exist.
3. God(s) either wants to be believed in/worshipped or do not.
4. If something is unfalsifiable, its likelihood is impossible to determine.

Now this is very similar to Pascal's wager, but please try to avoid vomiting (it's not as blatantly stupid): If god(s) do not exist, belief/worship does not matter. If god(s) do exist, but do not wish - or do not care whether - they are believed in or worshipped, then belief/worship is irrelevent. If god(s) do exist, and wish to be worshipped/believed in, then they are not worthy of worship.

Now you'll tell me: "Those two are totally unreconciliable: Either an unfalsifiable proposition can be likely or unlikely, in which case you're not justified in your second argument; or an unfalsifiable proposition cannot assessed as likely or unlikely, in which case you cannot call god 'absurd.'" I agree. The first is my gut reaction. The second is what happened after I thought more about it.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

We call those people 'arseholes.'

I assume that by 'books about atheism' you're referring to Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc. I call it 'pop-atheism.' I have not read all of these books, but I imagine the appeal is simply that people like their own beliefs being bolstered. It's probably appealing also in that a lot of people feel that atheism is a dirty little secret, so it's encouraging to see open, proud atheism. Or just to learn - intellectually - more about something you feel emotionally.

I have read books by atheists, though usually not strictly about atheism. My appreciation of Dawkins and so forth is that they basically go through a bullet-point list of 'standard Christian [and it's always Christian] arguments' and 'standard atheist refutations.' While there usually aren't anything wrong with these arguments (they're pretty time-honoured), it's not going to teach an experienced atheist much of anything. If you really want a primer of the subject, they might be worth it. I don't need to go over the same-old same-old.

I'd recommend picking up Russell and so forth before you buy another 'pop-atheism' book.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

It depends of what your definition of 'hostility' is.

I'm definately hostile towards some religous organisations. Various groups disgust me with their policies and actions so as to earn a permanent spot on my shit-list (see: Basically everything the Catholic Church does). Notwithstanding the inexplicable popularity (STILL!) of tele-evangelists, 'faith-healers,' etc., churches often advance causes that atheists find repellent for the simple reason that they're causes with no reason to exist other than religion (creationism in schools and so on).

You've also got to appreciate that many people - myself included - find religious beliefs absolutely snooker loopy. I don't see the logic in play that makes the Church of Scientology's absurd anti-psychiatry attitudes the harmful exploitation of the gulliable by a group of evil, greedy whackos, but makes the anti-homosexuality (and, in many cases, anti-sexuality in general) attitudes of so many religious groups a charming display of propriety and faith. It makes more sense when you stop thinking in terms of 'our beliefs are reasonable, those guys are nuts' and starting thinking in terms of 'all those guys are nuts.'

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I think this is a uniquely American phenomena. I'd be inclined to suggest it had something to do with social pressures. I find the overt religiousness of America and Americans to be pretty oppressive, at times (we don't get political pissing-matches over who loves baby Jesus more, we don't thank god at the end of speeches -- the whole concept is shocking to me). You establish an environment in which being an atheist is a quite literal 'coming-out,' with all the social repurcussions, and so you probably need a large concentration of principled irreverence. I suspect it's also a self-feeding beast, as the right has so thoroughly gotten itself in bed with religion that atheists will not be receptive to any other aspects of the right-wing movement. There's a similar situation with homosexuals: There's nothing inherently unreasonable about a homosexual being right-wing, save that the right has made anti-homosexuality as a tenant of their message. It's hard to support a movement or party that makes so much political capital execrating you.

As for Australia: I wouldn't feel comfortable to assume, based solely on someone's atheism, that I could guess anything about someone's political views. On the other hand, you would probably be safe assuming that a church-goer (especially a Catholic or a very conservative sect) would be a right-winger (I don't feel comfortable dignifying the mess of bigotry and stupidity of the Australian right as any sort of coherent 'conservative' ideology).

There is something of an attempt to start an American style 'religious-right' which has had... passable success. I think it's likely to remain niche and possibly not have much longevity.

Edit: Fuck me that's a long post.

[timbicile]

If i could put two sentences together I might say what max did.

[Jeff]

I was raised without religion. Identifying one's self by the absence of a belief makes no sense on a personal level, even talking about my lack of belief feels odd. I see theism and atheism as a dualism for which I possess no affinity or kinship.

I really feel like someone is playing a cosmic joke on militant atheists. I can understand religious belief, people do like believing in things. Being adamantly and rabidly opposed to something that, in your heart, you profess doesn't exist anyways reminds me of a small child adamantly insisting that there are no monsters in his closet or under his bed.

[Footsore Rambler]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?


I'm more #2, I guess. Although the distinction seems arbitrary. I'm an atheist because, although I'm willing to consider that there may be a god, there's no evidence to think so, and a lot of reasons to think that god as he/she/it is envisioned by most religions definitely does not exist.


2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.


I dunno. I haven't read any books about atheism. I do like to read books about science and skepticism, and it makes sense to me that other atheists might be into those -- if you think this world is all that's out there, then you have that much more stake in understanding it.


3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.


I've got no beef with religion as a whole. I even like bits of it. But I am critical of it. That's very different from hostile, and I hope you can appreciate the difference.


4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?


Don't know. I'm pretty liberal on most issues myself. I suspect that it has a lot to do with 'the culture war' and how it has defined conservatives recently.
All I know is that there are a lot of very religious liberals out there, so I suspect the reason is on the other side of the fence and you'll have to ask those guys. :)

[Sr. Siete]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

Actually that would depend on your definition of "disbelieves or denies". I consider mythological beings fictional, and I treat them as such. Would you consider "denying" if I said that I don't believe Zeus, the Smoke Monster from Lost or Peter Pan to be part of reality?


2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

Meh. I haven't learned anything I didn't already thought from the compulsive reading at the non-prayer meetings. Mostly we waste our time trying to prevent atheists who are not cool enough from finding out about us.


3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility toward tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

Although I'm not actually militant about it, I do think that a certain amount of rational thinking is good for society, and that some historical evils, like war, require a great deal of irrationality. That makes me dislike the idea of believing stuff without compelling evidence, the "magical thinking", wether we are talking about religion, tarot readings or UFO sightings.

People should first get the evidence, and then believe in something. But mostly everyone does that backwards.


4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

Same reason why global warming is a liberal issue. Pundits from a side will try to hijack an issue, and the other side will embrace the opposing point of view out of spite. Irrationality everywhere.

[Eliahna]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you? The second one is a better description, but I suppose both could apply.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.Fish said it well: 2. I don't read books about being an atheist. There are no non-prayer meetings to attend, there are neither crackers nor juice, there are no special round hats to wear, no donations, and no required reading.It's the absence of belief, not the presence of non-belief. I don't do carpentry; I don't read books on not being a carpenter.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.Mostly I take a live-and-let-live approach, but sometimes I get resentful of what I perceive as religious interference in my life, or hypocrisy, or imperialism. For instance, Christmas is a yearly event that turns simply doing the grocery shopping into an ordeal for the entire month of December as the shops become busy, parking is nearly impossible to find and symbols of Christmas are everywhere. Then on the actual day itself, all businesses are required to close, even those that belong to non-Christians. Now, I love Christmas and I don't really have a problem with any of this, until I see a bunch of Christians getting their knickers in a knot because the greeter at Target is saying "Happy Holidays!" instead of "Merry Christmas", and they begin calling for a boycott of the store and carrying on like they are being repressed. Their religious holiday takes over the entire country for the better part of a month and yet they take issue because a store has asked their greeter to say the more-inclusive "Happy Holidays!"? That really, really irritates me.

This is obviously not the most serious issue, but I'm sure how you could see a lifetime of these types of things building up into an irritation against religion and religious people. Factor in more important things, and it grows stronger.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?
No idea.

[mozg]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

You would probably term me as both. I do not have a belief in anything supernatural, and that includes any and all gods. I have concluded based upon the overwhelming lack of evidence for the existence of such things that they do not exist. When I was a kid, my family (religious) tried to make me religious as well. They took me to church and tried to get me to believe, but it was not possible for me. I needed evidence, and there was none.

This seems to be the most logical, rational position I can take. I would refer to myself as a Dawkins-6 on the scale.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

I read books on atheism such as The God Delusion, The End of Faith and God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything because I both find it interesting to read the views of other atheists, and because it gives me more material to use when debating the religious. I don't see how your question follows from your statement, however, and I don't agree that many posters are so eager to express their atheism that they do it when it has little to do with the discussion at hand. It is not off-topic to state that you are an atheist in threads about religion.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

I think religion is, to put it mildly, bad for humanity. It hampers the pursuit of knowledge and understanding, it is a dividing force between groups of people, and has throughout history been used as a tool of despots and tyrants for the oppression of millions. For all the bad that has been done in the name of religion, I have yet to see one example of a good act that could not be done equally well without invoking religion. I would like to see all religion become extinct as humanity, collectively, grows up and realizes that it no longer needs imaginary friends.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

You're probably going to find it difficult to locate socially-conservative atheists. The motivation to oppose things like same-sex marriage, or equal rights for gays, or the right to choice in reproductive matters seems to be extremely god-based. Those of us who don't adhere to the religious beliefs that say such things are wrong haven't got much reason to speak out or act out against them.

Probably the only issue where you will find any significant number of atheists and still say that it's a conservative position is regarding firearms. There are many atheist firearms owners who strongly support the Second Amendment. Other than that, many may be classically conservative with respect to a small, less powerful federal government, lower taxes, and limiting the financial scope of government in general.

Why do you think that I, as an atheist, should be socially conservative? Bear in mind that religious arguments will not attain any results.

[ArchTrout]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

#2 for me.


2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

I don’t read books on atheism. A lot of the philosophy books I read at university helped confirm my lack of belief as I had to think a lot about premises and conclusions and logical arguments etc etc


3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

I hold no hostility against organised religion. I just think its a bit stupid and that those who blindly follow dogma of any kind without questioning it are somewhat mentally challenged. I assume that many people that are religious do question the dogma though. Quite why they are still religious after doing so confuses me. I just don’t get it to be honest. Faith perplexes me.


4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I’m fairly right wing in some of my beliefs, although liberal in terms of personal freedoms.

[Doyle]

Thanks for all the great responses. A lot of what I thought was confirmed, but I also read some ideas I hadn't considered. I'm going to try respond to every poster, but I'm taking most of today off to go to my daughter's field day at school and no telling what the weekend holds.

Others, please continue to respond if you desire.

[jayjay]

I'm an agnostic apathetic. All things being equal, I don't know if there is a god and, frankly, I don't really care. Even if it were proved that there is a god, if he's anything like the God of the Abrahamic faiths, he doesn't deserve my worship anyway.

Now, I will get incensed if people start insisting that their religious beliefs are equivalent to scientifically tested facts. That's when I start flashing the Atheist gang signs (:D), though that's usually a side-effect of my argument against the unquestioned acceptance of something someone with an obvious interest in expanding and maintaining the influence of the priesthood wrote down several thousand years ago.

[Moon Dog]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

Honestly the difference between 'Disbelieves in the existence of God' and 'Absence of belief in the existence of God' is semantics to me. I hear theists use the term believe in no God as simply a way to pretend that atheism is just as much a belief as theism.


2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

I usually try not to bring it up unless the subject of religion has already been broached. Sometimes I fail and go militant. I have not really read any atheist books. I actually think Dawkins is a jerk from the few interviews I've seen. It annoys me a little that he is seen as indicative of the average atheist let alone the face of it.


3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

Yep. That is a good understanding. Another issue is only after you quit drinking do you realise how much alcohol use is ingrained in societal activities and how much social and peer pressure exists. The truth is the same for religion.


4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I'll leave the conservative atheists to answer that as my political views would probably be considered loony left by the American perspective.

May I ask what thoughts you already had have been confirmed and which are the thoughts you find new ?

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

The second one better describes me. An affirmative disbelief is contrary to the empirical worldview, and is no less toxic to my mind than an affirmative belief in something unprovable.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism.

I can't imagine actually reading a book on atheism. I browsed Dawkin's thing once, though I did this because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, and because an old professor of mine had been something of a disciple of Dawkins at one point. The book is written by an atheist for atheists, it serves as a reaffirmation of their non-faith. How many pages does it take to say "I suspect there is no god"? How many words to discuss a nullity? Quite a few, evidently. Cha-ching, I guess.


3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole?

I think this exists for several reasons, and I'm typically skeptical of people who say "I'm not hostile to religion" and then go out of their way to demonstrate contempt for religious belief. "Oh, no, I'm not hostile towards your belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you caveman." Whatever.

Reason one: young people are almost always hostile to something deemed to be establishment, and many educated young persons are atheists. Rage against the machine factor. Reason two: many atheists were raised in religious backgrounds, and think they have a score to settle. I was raised atheist, or at least agnostic, so I don't really have a need to revenge myself or declare my thoughts on the subject to anyone. Third: some religious people are either stone bugfuck insane (Phelps) or just dickheads using religion to behave like dickheads (my stepmother). A rational person won't have very nice things to say about them, regardless.

Personally I find the company of intelligent religious people far more pleasant and interesting than the militant, strident atheist. As long as you don't forget that their worldview is fundamentally skewed to something irrational, they're mostly like everyone else (nutso proselytizers excluded, of course).

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I've never really understood that either, other than the natural disposition of our cultural mindset in re: progressive vs. conservative (disregarding conventional political division). I'm fairly middle of the road politically, more apolitical than anything else.

[Moon Dog]

Atheist gang signs (:D),

You make a point there that I shouldn't really hijack this thread about.
( Continues to hijack thread anyway )
But the new breed of evangelical atheists and advertising campaigns by atheist organisations, hell the fact there are atheist organisations is bizarre to me.
It feeds into this idea that atheists are all the same, follow some sort rules, that they are actually just another form of religious belief.

The first and only rule of atheism is lack of belief in gods.
The second rule is see the first.

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

Also, a shoutout to all my Jesuit homies up in the 504. Yeah sure they're a little crazy, organized religios & etc. but they're smart people and pretty much top of the class when it comes to fighting the undead.

[bellybean]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

I guess the second. "Denies" sounds too active. I don't believe, but I don't spend any energy denying.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

I don't read books about atheism. I grew up a fundamentalist Christian and I used to read books on how to defend my beliefs. I do not feel the need to defend my non-belief. Also, I don't think I would enjoy reading anything by rabid atheists. I don't bring it up unless someone asks me, and even then I don't try to prolong conversations about it.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

I probably have less hostility against organized religion than one would expect, especially since I grew up in it and rejected it. I think it is because I have really good memories of the people in the church I grew up in, and my experience there was, over all, positive.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I think people have already covered this. In North America, social conservatism seems tied up with religious values.

Sgt. Max Fightmaster, that was an amazing post.

[ulfhjorr]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

I think the second would more accurately describe my thoughts even though they are a but stronger than that may reveal. I wouldn't say I disbelieve in gods, because that, to me at least, implies that there is a god-premise worth contemplating belief in. To use a rather tired cliche, I wouldn't say that I "disbelieve" in invisible pink unicorns, either.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

I think a lot of the reason for declarations of atheism stem from the rather profound rise in the publicity of religion in recent years -- from a church hosting a presidential debate, to the ridiculous assaults on science education by religious nut jobs, to personal witnessing, and to the rise of the religious right itself. All of that has left a rather bad taste in the mouths of atheists and agnostics alike.

As for reading atheist books, I really don't do much of this, personally. I've skimmed a few, and they strike me as rather useless to me. The attraction to others, however, may have to do with a desire to get validation for their beliefs in a society and a culture that is very pro-religion and anti-atheism. To read arguments in support of one's beliefs can be a sort of intellectual and/or emotional security blanket.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

I think a large portion of this has to do with the rise of religion and infiltration into the broader world, in this country at least, that I mentioned above. Yes, on any single issue it may be more defensible to target a specific subgroup, but on a whole, targeting the entire corpus of the religious institution may make sense as well.

My own hostility rises from several areas. First, organized religion is, to me, a conspiracy to perpetuate ignorance. Holding to ancient myths and fears, rather than seeking out knowledge and wisdom is anathema to me. Second, and this may seem somewhat hypocritical, I despise the fact that so many of these institutions will claim to hold the tenets of their holy scriptures, but then turn around and try to modernize their practices. Well, which is it? Is The Book the word of your god, or is it okay to ordain gay priests? While I applaud the modernization, it's about time to figure out the bigger picture. If it's okay to eat bacon, wear a cotton-poly blend, and (hopefully) be gay, then doesn't it make a bit of sense to realize that the rest of the book is crap too? Finally, there's a bit of the last paragraph in me as well. If religion is going to stick its nose in my (or others') business in the name of religion, then I'm going to strike back at it, as religion.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

Just conjecture here, but the major underlying theme of social conservatism is a desire to maintain the traditions and the status quo. Atheism is, in and of itself, a major challenge to that tradition. There will, therefor, likely be a substantially smaller portion of social conservatives among atheists. There is also plenty of room for fiscal conservatives who are more socially liberal in the Democrat and Libertarian tents, places which may also make it seem like the atheist population is more liberal than it may be. Finally, there is plenty of room in both of these parties and in atheism itself for holding some more conservative views (anti-aboriton, pro-death penalty, pro-gun rights, etc.) without also aligning the atheists with more clear-cut conservative + religious nonsense like the anti-gay agenda.

[Lanzy]

I'm a number 2 as well. But I really put no thought into it anymore. Nothing to think about really and I've never read atheist books, what would be the point? I already lack belief.

Organized religion? Can't answer, you asked to keep it civil.

[Lounsbury]

I think the hostility comes from Fundamental Atheists- A bad lot just like Fundy Christians and Fundy Islamics.

Ideological would be a better term.

Islamic by the way is an adjective - as in Islamic Architecture, etc, not a noun, Muslim, Moslem or similar nouns such as the archaic "Mohammedan" are the proper noun.

[Doyle]

Badtz Maru claims to have stopped believing in God around the same time he quit believing in the Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I'm going to assume this happend around 10 years of age, give or take a year. Did anyone else come to the same conclusion at such an early age? or at what age did you finally decide your were an Atheist?

[3acres]

I quit believing and quit going to church in fifth grade. My sisters kept going, but I'd just hang out at the house and read encyclopedias or something. My sisters are all still christians and I'm still an atheist.

[Muskrat Love]

Badtz Maru claims to have stopped believing in God around the same time he quit believing in the Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I'm going to assume this happend around 10 years of age, give or take a year. Did anyone else come to the same conclusion at such an early age? or at what age did you finally decide your were an Atheist?

It was around five or six, actually. Another factor was that I was reading the encyclopedia and saw that the article on gods showed a bunch of different ones and they all seemed made up.

[timbicile]

I don't remember being a theist. I went to church with the neighbors a few times as a kid. I guess it didn't take.

[mozg]

Badtz Maru claims to have stopped believing in God around the same time he quit believing in the Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I'm going to assume this happend around 10 years of age, give or take a year. Did anyone else come to the same conclusion at such an early age? or at what age did you finally decide your were an Atheist?

Santa Claus seemed much more plausible to me than god (there were presents under the tree, after all), and by the time I was five I had already found enough holes in that story to know that it was fiction.

I only know one person who believed in Santa Claus at the age of ten, and she was relentlessly made fun for it. Ten seems to be to be quite old to still believe in those kind of things.

[Fish]

I was instructed not to believe in God by the vast commie liberal pinko bolshevik conspiracy, at the age of 6. "Tell your friends," they urged me. "Power to the pipples revolution." Then they taught me the secret atheist salute.

[Doyle]

I hadn't even discovered masturbation yet and you had already discerned there was no God.

[WednesdayAddams]

Look at it this way: With masturbation you don't have to fake it. I pretended to be a Christian for way longer than I should have.

[Doyle]

Look at it this way: With masturbation you don't have to fake it. I pretended to be a Christian for way longer than I should have.

Until you were how old?

[The Superhero]

Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

My Dad might not self-identify as an atheist, but he's certainly agnostic, probably leaning towards the atheist side of things.

In fiscal terms, he's pretty Republican/conservative. He's for lower taxes, smaller government, the whole nine.

On the other hand, he's more on what I would consider the "liberal" side of the equation socially. He's for decriminalizing drugs, he's pro-choice and he was thoroughly embarrassed for many years to be represented in Congress by Marilyn "Defense of Marriage Amendment" Musgrave.

I think that in terms of "social" issues, the traditionalist/conservative view tends to be strongly influenced by the kind of moral absolutism that religious belief can often engender. Why oppose marriage equality unless you believe that it's against God's law? Atheism allows for a much more relativist sense of ethics that tends to align with liberal political views.

[The Superhero]

I hadn't even discovered masturbation yet and you had already discerned there was no God.

Why is the idea of doubting the existence of God at a young age any less plausible than believing in God at a young age?

[BlueBlazes]

To answer your questions as you asked them:

1. I'm best described by "absence of a belief". I do not find the evidence for belief compelling, therefore I do not believe. In The God Delusion, Dawkins puts forward the following classification (I've paraphrased a bit):

"I do not believe, I know".
"I cannot be certain, but I strongly believe in God and live on the assumption that he exists".
"I am uncertain, but inclined to believe God exists".
"God's existence and non-existence are equiprobable".
"I am uncertain, but inclined to believe God does not exist".
"I cannot know for certain, but I think the existence of God is very unlikely and I live on the assumption that he does not exist".
"I know there is no God, with the same conviction guy number 1 'knows' there is a God".

Dawkins puts himself in category 6, which is the same place I would put myself.

This is the thing about Atheism that has always puzzled me, especially when put forth by those claiming an 'absence of belief'. I put myself squarely in category #4 (Agnostic) because no other choice seems logical to me. If one cannot know for certain, how is the leap made to assumption (much less conviction) that either scenario is probable?

I've seen such incredible changes just in my lifetime that I'm hesitant to rule much of anything impossible without full knowledge of all the facts, and it's been proven too often, for thousands of years, that our inability to understand a thing doesn't mean it can't be true.

FTR, my parents were (still are) Christians, I went to church until I was about 16 years old, and this

Originally posted by Badtz:

I just stopped believing God was real around the time I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and I could no more change my mind and go back to believing than I could start believing in the Easter Bunny again.

pretty much describes what happened to me. That part of me that insists that it might be possible that a 'supreme being' exists is just as unsure about what form it might take. It's just as likely to be the Great Spirit or Cthulhu (or something our minds can't even comprehend) as the Biblical God.

And yeah, it's also just as likely that we'll just be worm-chow.

[BlueBlazes]

BTW, I thought this article was interesting (and highly entertaining):

The God Fuse: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On (http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-must-agree-on.html)

[Fromage A Trois]

Badtz Maru claims to have stopped believing in God around the same time he quit believing in the Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I'm going to assume this happend around 10 years of age, give or take a year. Did anyone else come to the same conclusion at such an early age? or at what age did you finally decide your were an Atheist?

I don't remember ever not being an atheist. My parents aren't religious (I think I'm right in saying that they are atheists), but I went to schools with religious assemblies etc. I just never really believed it. It wasn't until I got old enough to consider the philosophical implications (around 13, maybe?) that I realised that made me an atheist. I treated all the stories about Jesus etc I was taught in school the same way I treated the other stories (like about the tortoise and the hare, the dog called Spot) - just stories. And you can learn from them, but they are just stories.

This is the thing about Atheism that has always puzzled me, especially when put forth by those claiming an 'absence of belief'. I put myself squarely in category #4 (Agnostic) because no other choice seems logical to me. If one cannot know for certain, how is the leap made to assumption (much less conviction) that either scenario is probable?

With this argument, don't you have to put yourself in #4 for everything that can't be proven? #4 indicates you think that they both have a 50% chance of being correct. Maybe this does accurately portray you, but others rank themselves elsewhere on the scale because they don't consider either option equally likely. But you may not think that. Having read and thought a lot on the subject, I believe the probability that God (or gods, or spiritual essences etc) exists is very low. So I can't say I'm #4. However, I'm not hypocritical enough to assume that the low probability means it's impossible, so I rank myself as #6. The same is true of fairies at the bottom of the garden, and so on.

[BlueBlazes]

With this argument, don't you have to put yourself in #4 for everything that can't be proven?

Not necessarily. I think it's unlikely that 'Bigfoot' exists, even though some believe that it does. We've been all over its supposed domain and I know of no reliable evidence of its existence. The problem with applying that logic to God is that no one has ever visited his supposed domain and returned to report one way or the other.

On the other end of that spectrum we have the theory of everything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything). While it may be beyond our current ability to fully understand how something exists that 'explains and links together all known physical phenomena', that doesn't mean that the existence of such a 'something' is improbable. Even though it hasn't been proven yet, I think it's likely that one day it will be.

#4 indicates you think that they both have a 50% chance of being correct. Maybe this does accurately portray you, but others rank themselves elsewhere on the scale because they don't consider either option equally likely.

It does accurately portray my thoughts. Do you think it would appear more favorable to others if I said that both have a 50% chance of being unlikely? I can go with that if it'll make everyone feel better. :D

Having read and thought a lot on the subject, I believe the probability that God (or gods, or spiritual essences etc) exists is very low. So I can't say I'm #4. However, I'm not hypocritical enough to assume that the low probability means it's impossible, so I rank myself as #6. The same is true of fairies at the bottom of the garden, and so on.

Yet you assume this 'low probability' knowing that there's a piece of the equation that can never be resolved. I don't think it makes you hypocritical, necessarily, but I have to admit that I still don't quite understand it.

I suppose I also have to admit that there's a 50% chance that you just have a better understanding than I do. ;)

[BJMoose]

I'll limit myself to the fourth question.

If there is a correlation between religiosity and conservatism, perhaps it's because folks in both groups tend to accept what they're told. In our culture most of us have to work at becoming atheists or serious agnostics. We have to be willing to question the status quo and be open to new possibilities - defining characteristics of a "liberal" mind. So if atheists tend to be liberal, maybe it's because you have to be to get there.

(Fromage A Trois presents an interesting situation. In a subculture where atheism is the norm, atheism would be the default [conservative] position. Interesting.)

[WednesdayAddams]

Until you were how old?

24.

[Muskrat Love]

BTW, I thought this article was interesting (and highly entertaining):

The God Fuse: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On (http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-must-agree-on.html)

1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

Disagree. You cannot do terrible things in the name of atheism. You can do terrible things because you are against religion, but that is not synonymous with atheism.

2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying

Sorta agree. I do believe that there are people who believe what they are saying among theists and atheists, and that there are people who claim to believe in God who do not, and people who claim that there is no God who actually do. I think there are probably (for obvious reasons) a lot more theists who do not believe what they are saying than atheists. I don't think I've ever met one of those atheists who really believes in God and says they don't for attention or whatever, but I know I've met many people who claimed to believe in God who really did not.

3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different

Disagree. Every day I face reminders that the majority of the people around me believe in a judgmental supernatural force that affects everything around them. I am prevented from doing things I enjoy doing because of very real laws enforced by real police based on things an imaginary being supposedly said. I do not fear punishment for my thoughts or private actions, nor do I expect to be rewarded for keeping a certain mindset after I die. I believe my experience of life is very different from that of a religious person. I think this must make my experience of everyday life very different from that of a religious person.

4. There Are Good People on Both Sides

Agreed, no discussion required.

5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them

Not universally true. Not all religious beliefs are offensive to me, nor is lack of belief offensive to all religious people.

6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy

True for the assholes on both sides. How widely these assholes are believed varies significantly between theists and atheists, however. I don't see many atheists exaggerating about religious people, though overgeneralizing is common among some people - i.e. religion is responsible for a lot of deaths and torture, but not ALL religions share that responsibility. The reverse is not necessarily true - I've heard a lot of negative things about atheism that have absolutely no basis in fact.

7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too

This part of the article seems to address anti-religion crusaders as opposed to atheists as a whole. As I am not a member of that subset, I can't really understand a claim that I exaggerate about my own lack of belief.

8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid

I'm not sure what this means. I guess if everything you ever said about religion or atheism was negative and this was coming up in non-related conversations, that would be stupid, but who does that aside from a few wackos? I personally have only mentioned the negative examples of religion when discussing the values of religion, and when I am discussing my beliefs about religion (that, as a whole, I think it's caused a lot more problems than it's worth), why should I match everything negative with something positive? "I think religion is bad for humanity, many people have been tortured and killed for no other reason than religious belief, but hey, there's been some good religious people too!". I don't have to mention that, it's assumed the person I'm talking to knows that there are good religious people if they are debating that religion is good.

9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table

True. I believe goodness is a common human trait that has nothing to do with religious belief. But I agree with Steven Weinberg in this:

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion."

10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence

Not sure I believe this. One has to be taught to believe in God, and after a certain point in a person's life it can be nearly impossible to push someone into believing. I think that, if a large enough majority of people stopped believing, they could create a society where nobody believed in God, because they never even been exposed to the concept. I don't believe the reverse is true, because no matter how ubiquitous religion is, there will always be people who question it and decide that it is false (because it is). You cannot hide truth from everyone, but you can protect everyone from lies.

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

I just want to clarify that I've never licked bum. Even if I did lick bum, it was a long time ago. If it wasn't a long time ago, it was an accident.

I am also greatful to the writer of that article for telling me that I cannot love, and that I would be a puritan comparable with the PTC were I to get upset if my (hypothetical) special-lady fucks an entire football team.

And I would give up masturbation if religious people would stop using that 'Stalin killed for atheism' meme to justify religiously-motivated atrocities.

[Moon Dog]

And I would give up masturbation if religious people would stop using that 'Stalin killed for atheism' meme to justify religiously-motivated atrocities.

I wouldn't go quite that far. Maybe give up masturbation on weekends.

[Doyle]

Why is the idea of doubting the existence of God at a young age any less plausible than believing in God at a young age?

He didn't say he started doubting, he said he stopped believing.

[Doyle]

You're probably going to find it difficult to locate socially-conservative atheists. The motivation to oppose things like same-sex marriage, or equal rights for gays, or the right to choice in reproductive matters seems to be extremely god-based. Those of us who don't adhere to the religious beliefs that say such things are wrong haven't got much reason to speak out or act out against them.


Why do you think that I, as an atheist, should be socially conservative? Bear in mind that religious arguments will not attain any results.

First off, I never stated that that I thought you or any other atheist should be socially conservative. Many have replied that they are fiscally conservative, which is really just saying that government shouldn't be wasteful.

I disagree that gay marriage and abortion positions of social conservatives are completely religious based While most holding these positions will most likely identify their religion as why they feel the way they do, there are others who might have the same views, but not because of religion.

[The Superhero]

He didn't say he started doubting, he said he stopped believing.

Okay, fine.

Why is not believing in God at a young age any less plausible than believing in God at a young age?

[Fromage A Trois]

It does accurately portray my thoughts. Do you think it would appear more favorable to others if I said that both have a 50% chance of being unlikely? I can go with that if it'll make everyone feel better. :D

That's all I ask :D.

The scale 1-7 can be used to rate how likely you think the existence of God is, based on your own knowledge. Some of us are doing this with not much more than a gut feeling, others have considered it in some detail (and read religious/scientific/philosophical books on the subject). With the information I have gathered, I put myself in #6 because what I know on the subject makes me think that although by no means have all questions been answered, a godless universe is more likely. However, others, like you, reach a different conclusion either with the same data or with more or less.

Something else which affects how one ranks one's belief in God is the definition of God. Others have said this, and it's true. I find the all-powerful, all-loving God of Christianity less likely than some kind of powerful being. This is because with the all-powerful God philosophical problems like the existence of pain and suffering are hard questions to answer, but some god who is just more powerful than us is a much easier concept to stomach. This also affects how we score ourselves on the scale.

So, even though it was me that posted the scale at the top of the thread (and created the poll for it), I'm going to blame Dawkins for its deficiencies. Although it has got us talking, and I'm going to take credit for that :).

[Muskrat Love]

When defining "god", I don't automatically jump to the Christian God. If that was the definition we were working from, I'd be a 7.

One can't get to open in your definition of god, though, without including a lot of things that are not "supernatural". The universe is old, and it's entirely possible that there are intelligences in it that are so far beyond us in intelligence, knowledge, and power that they would have a lot in common with gods. Is there something out there that could create stars and worlds, that can have such complete knowledge of it's surroundings that it can accurately predict the future and know the thoughts of lesser beings, that is essentially eternal (yet not infinite) and act in ways that we cannot comprehend? With that definition, I would probably be a 4 or even a 3 on the 7 point scale. I can't be sure that something like that is out there (we may be the first life to evolve in the universe - SOMEBODY had to be), but if intelligence did arise billions or even just millions of years ago, it seems reasonable that it could reach such a state by now. A godlike entity that is the product of natural occurrences in the universe and acts within it's laws is possible.

The god that I don't believe in, who rates a 6 or 7 on my scale, is one that created the universe (or alternatively, is an intelligence that is the same thing as the universe, an organizing intelligence behind everything), that is omniscient (able to know EVERYTHING, not just a large but finite portion of reality), and that acts outside the laws of nature. The Christian God falls into that category, as do many other gods I do not believe in.

[hilarity n. suze]

1. I put a lot of thought into it when I was younger. I am a (2). Absence of belief. I tried. Everybody in my life believed wholeheartedly. I just couldn't get there.

2. I don't waste time on reading books on atheism. I have read books on philosophy, and most of them led me to the place of nonbelief.

3. When I was younger I was openly hostile to any religion because it just seemed dumb, and perpetuated dumb beliefs and dictated religious-centric social policies, not to mention laws. But I have a collection of church cookbooks, I have some friends who are very religious, and I've mellowed a bit. Obviously humanity needed something to help form them from animals into communities, and maybe religion was what did it.

4. Why are atheists leaning liberal? Because liberals are smarter. I hope this doesn't sound uncivil. It just seems like conservatives by definition don't want to open themselves to new thinking. I hope that's civil enough.

[Doyle]

As I had stated earlier, the purpose of this post was for me to learn. Having grown up in a Christian home and almost all my friends in the same situation, I would default to thinking most everyone else was raised Christian to a more or lesser degrees. Save, of course Jews, Muslims, etc. When Badtz stated he stopped believing in God at around 5 or 6, I found that hard to believe. But others mentioned that they were raised without any religion. When I looked at it from their perspective, I could then see how some one at an early age may not believe in God. Just bear with me.

[Muskrat Love]

Well, I wasn't raised in a very Christian home. My Mom believes in God but has some pretty varied beliefs that don't fit in with Christianity, and is not very enthusiastic about it. My Dad never talked about his beliefs but I always got the impression he was an atheist or agnostic. They were social church-goers most of their lives, but stopped around the time I was 4 because of a move from where they had lived a long time, and never started going again. My older brother is an atheist and more anti-religion than I am. One of my sisters never goes to church and seems non-religious though I never talked to her about it. Another sister does go to church and seems religious but is not fanatical about it. My youngest sister was probably the most involved in her church, contributing lots of time and money to various charities, but she was murdered when I was twelve and she was just 23, so who knows how her beliefs would have evolved. A lot of that was probably due to her husband, who was very religious.

So, my kind of upbringing has created a wide range of religious belief.

[Doyle]

How you were raised may have a lot to do with it.

My mother was Catholic, but I was raised in my father’s Episcopal church. I had a very pleasant experience growing up in the church. For those not familiar, the Episcopal Church tends to be the most liberal of Christian churches. No guilt, no hard and fast rules. I enjoyed the message, tradition and liturgy of the services. (Still do) Basically, take away from it what you will.

I too cringe at tele-evangelst and their ilk. They give the rest of us a bad name. If that were the only option, I might not go to church. To me, the sad thing is that the Pentecostal, Assembly of God, etc. denominations are the only ones growing, all other’s rolls continue to decrease.

[Who_me?]

I disagree that gay marriage and abortion positions of social conservatives are completely religious based While most holding these positions will most likely identify their religion as why they feel the way they do, there are others who might have the same views, but not because of religion.

I've never seen anyone against gay marriage that didn't have religious reasons. I'm not going to say non-religious gay marriage opponents don't exist, just that I've never seen one.

[Doyle]

I've never seen anyone against gay marriage that didn't have religious reasons. I'm not going to say non-religious gay marriage opponents don't exist, just that I've never seen one.

Not trying to make a point, but I have a question: Until the last ten years, has there been gay marriages at anytime in the world?

[Muskrat Love]

Not trying to make a point, but I have a question: Until the last ten years, has there been gay marriages at anytime in the world?


There have been gay marriages for much longer than that, it's just that most governments did not recognize them until more recently. Many churches have provided them before then, though.

[Who_me?]

Not trying to make a point, but I have a question: Until the last ten years, has there been gay marriages at anytime in the world?

According to MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20464004/), yes.

There are other cites/sites with information, but after looking at them... all seem biased on one side or the other.

[Moon Dog]

Not trying to make a point, but I have a question: Until the last ten years, has there been gay marriages at anytime in the world?

Yes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions)

The practice of same-sex love in antiquity often took the form of formal pairings of men with youths, which had many of the attributes of marriage but were limited in duration. (It is important to note, however, that marriages in Ancient Greece between men and women were also age structured, with men in their 30's commonly taking wives in their early teens.) There were also marriage between men, at least among the Romans, as this practice wasoutlawed in 342 AD by the Christian emperors.

[Revenant Threshold]

Badtz Maru claims to have stopped believing in God around the same time he quit believing in the Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I'm going to assume this happend around 10 years of age, give or take a year. Did anyone else come to the same conclusion at such an early age? or at what age did you finally decide your were an Atheist? For me, who was not raised in any particular religion, it wasn't so much a decision as just a general unconscious acceptance. It wasn't even a question for me as a child; that was how things were, and I didn't think about it.

It's only as I got older that I actually started really thinking about it, and coming to my thoughts on the matter. So really, I came to the conclusion in my teenage years, but before that, I was still an athiest - just an unthinking one.

[Doyle]

As I had stated before, I guess it's not nearly as big of a deal to become an atheist if you weren't raised in the church.

Anyone out there who a relatively good experience in a church as a youth and then became an atheist?

[absinthe]

I was raised fundamentalist pentecostal and I am an atheist. I'm not sure how that is so much more significant than someone that was not raised in the church. In my experience, it's just a conclusion people reach at some point.

[Doyle]

I was raised fundamentalist pentecostal and I am an atheist. I'm not sure how that is so much more significant than someone that was not raised in the church. In my experience, it's just a conclusion people reach at some point.

I'm sorry, I left out the part about age. My question was concerning the age you proclaimed to be an atheist. It seems people with no church in their youth would make their proclomation earlier, people with bad experiences in the church would be next, and people with good experiences would be the last. I'm seeing if that's true and am interested in hearing any exceptions.

[bellybean]

I'm sorry, I left out the part about age. My question was concerning the age you proclaimed to be an atheist. It seems people with no church in their youth would make their proclomation earlier, people with bad experiences in the church would be next, and people with good experiences would be the last. I'm seeing if that's true and am interested in hearing any exceptions.

I left the church and stopped believing at 22, having had good experiences. I wasn't leaving the church itself, but I had come to the conclusion that the god I had been taught about my whole life could not possibly exist.

[Doyle]

Thanks for the honest answer. What denomination did you grow up in?

[blank]

I left the church and stopped believing at 22, having had good experiences. I wasn't leaving the church itself, but I had come to the conclusion that the god I had been taught about my whole life could not possibly exist.

Something similar here, though my issues were with the church's relationship with god

[Duparc]

I was raised as a Scottish Presbyterian but married an English girl who was an Anglican. My three daughters are nominal Anglicans. I was raised to believe in Christianity and I guess as a youngster I was a believer or rather wanted to believe but with maturity the falsities of religion and religious dogma began to become apparent. Today, I do not regard myself as an atheist nor as an agnostic but I am anti-religious.

I cannot connect education to beliefs. I am educated (whatever this is intended to mean) but not formally. The world of academe is another form of religion which could be the discussion for another occasion.

The question now arising is, am I competent to reply to your question about atheism?

Now that I have started, allow me to finish.

There is no way I am able to conceive of a God; it is a man made concept. Anyone who cannot accept this then there can be no further argument. One either believes or doesn't believe; it all revolves around the question of need; the need to believe that there is something other than our secular existence but is it a God and what is meant by the term God? Is it one individual who listens to all our tales of woe and unluck? "Please God, can you help me to win the £110,000,000 on the Euro lottery this week"! If so, then he will probably need the men in the white coats to take him away! Its concept is illogical both intellectually and emotionally. Probably everyone recognises that a higher intelligence exists but let them be careful about personifying it in the image of man which the church does and, for what purpose? I see myself as a socialist but I am just a tad conservative about it and I cannot see any connection between my political views and religion.

To believe in Christianity is absurd. Its basic premise is that of a married virgin. Such creatures may exist but when Mary tells her husband Joe that she is pregnant and he says, “Well, I was going to keep you for another day dear” and she replies, “Well, a couple of months ago while in bed, this guy came to me in the night who said his name was Gabriel and his first name Angel. He was ever such a nice guy whom I think was in ‘spirit’ but he was so strong”! This is the premise of Christian belief. When the story of the bible thereafter unfolds it becomes more outrageous. It is a nice kindergarten story populated by secular tales from folklore but garnished by institutionalised religious thought. It is simply, and should be, unacceptable to the adult mind.

There is little doubt that religions are political bodies out to win the minds of people and their messages are propaganda and, end of story.

Having said this, may it be added, that I am psychic, and have had many paranormal experiences but none have had religious connections. I accept there is another existence but it has no relevance to religion whatsoever.

What I fail to understand is how my fellow beings are so gullible; their ignorance is beyond comprehension; indeed, it frightens me! Religions are stuck, in their beliefs, knee-deep in the primordial mud, but, why?

[Muskrat Love]

I was thinking about religion today and I remembered another reason why atheists often feel angry with religious people.

This is not universal, but a LOT of Christians feel that the existence of God is obvious, and that atheists are either in denial about the existence of God or being misled by others (whether other atheists or the Devil). This is important to them, because the idea that denying Jesus leads to eternal torment doesn't seem fair if everybody does not have an equal chance to believe in Jesus. The idea that a person could not believe in Jesus through no fault of their own is antithetical to their worldview.

People do not like to be told that they are lying about their own feelings about God, or that they have been tricked by evil people, and so atheists find a lot of Christians' beliefs insulting. Many atheists (myself included) do not believe that Christians are deluded or lying to themselves about their beliefs - we recognize that if you are brought up believing something is true, it's hard to shake that belief. There are many non-insulting reasons to believe in God even when presented with the evidence that leads atheists to not believe. There aren't many non-insulting reasons to not believe in God when presented with evidence of His existence from the P.O.V. of most Christians.

[Doyle]

I was raised as a Scottish Presbyterian but married an English girl who was an Anglican. My three daughters are nominal Anglicans. I was raised to believe in Christianity and I guess as a youngster I was a believer or rather wanted to believe but with maturity the falsities of religion and religious dogma began to become apparent. Today, I do not regard myself as an atheist nor as an agnostic but I am anti-religious.

I cannot connect education to beliefs. I am educated (whatever this is intended to mean) but not formally. The world of academe is another form of religion which could be the discussion for another occasion.

The question now arising is, am I competent to reply to your question about atheism?

Now that I have started, allow me to finish.

There is no way I am able to conceive of a God; it is a man made concept. Anyone who cannot accept this then there can be no further argument. One either believes or doesn't believe; it all revolves around the question of need; the need to believe that there is something other than our secular existence but is it a God and what is meant by the term God? Is it one individual who listens to all our tales of woe and unluck? "Please God, can you help me to win the £110,000,000 on the Euro lottery this week"! If so, then he will probably need the men in the white coats to take him away! Its concept is illogical both intellectually and emotionally. Probably everyone recognises that a higher intelligence exists but let them be careful about personifying it in the image of man which the church does and, for what purpose? I see myself as a socialist but I am just a tad conservative about it and I cannot see any connection between my political views and religion.

To believe in Christianity is absurd. Its basic premise is that of a married virgin. Such creatures may exist but when Mary tells her husband Joe that she is pregnant and he says, “Well, I was going to keep you for another day dear” and she replies, “Well, a couple of months ago while in bed, this guy came to me in the night who said his name was Gabriel and his first name Angel. He was ever such a nice guy whom I think was in ‘spirit’ but he was so strong”! This is the premise of Christian belief. When the story of the bible thereafter unfolds it becomes more outrageous. It is a nice kindergarten story populated by secular tales from folklore but garnished by institutionalised religious thought. It is simply, and should be, unacceptable to the adult mind.

There is little doubt that religions are political bodies out to win the minds of people and their messages are propaganda and, end of story.

Having said this, may it be added, that I am psychic, and have had many paranormal experiences but none have had religious connections. I accept there is another existence but it has no relevance to religion whatsoever.

What I fail to understand is how my fellow beings are so gullible; their ignorance is beyond comprehension; indeed, it frightens me! Religions are stuck, in their beliefs, knee-deep in the primordial mud, but, why?

That was a very interesting post.

[Doyle]

I was thinking about religion today and I remembered another reason why atheists often feel angry with religious people.

This is not universal, but a LOT of Christians feel that the existence of God is obvious, and that atheists are either in denial about the existence of God or being misled by others (whether other atheists or the Devil). This is important to them, because the idea that denying Jesus leads to eternal torment doesn't seem fair if everybody does not have an equal chance to believe in Jesus. The idea that a person could not believe in Jesus through no fault of their own is antithetical to their worldview.

People do not like to be told that they are lying about their own feelings about God, or that they have been tricked by evil people, and so atheists find a lot of Christians' beliefs insulting. Many atheists (myself included) do not believe that Christians are deluded or lying to themselves about their beliefs - we recognize that if you are brought up believing something is true, it's hard to shake that belief. There are many non-insulting reasons to believe in God even when presented with the evidence that leads atheists to not believe. There aren't many non-insulting reasons to not believe in God when presented with evidence of His existence from the P.O.V. of most Christians.

I can certainly understand how many atheist can be offended by some Christians. I like to think I practice a form that is offensive to no one. I know it's difficult to separate us, but consider the quiet ones sometime.

[Muskrat Love]

I can certainly understand how many atheist can be offended by some Christians. I like to think I practice a form that is offensive to no one. I know it's difficult to separate us, but consider the quiet ones sometime.


Well, it depends on your views of atheists.

[Doyle]

Well, it depends on your views of atheists.

Have I been anything but respectful and understanding?

[Duparc]

I recognise the need of people to believe; they need to believe that we do not exist in a vacuum; that there is, or should be, a purpose to life, yet they/we are not privy to its intention. It is an impertinence which we have difficulty at comprehending and the paradox is, that in this vacuum, we become malleable to the voices of authority. My problem with the converted is their constant need to convince others that they are compos mentis. They take every opportunity, whenever an audience is present, to prove this point in propagating their delusional beliefs when, in fact, what they are doing is recruiting for the political party to which they belong. The present day terrorists who hide under the umbrella of religion is evidence to this, yet the need to believe that a compassionate God exists is inextinguishable. This surely relays something of the human condition but why should we be deterred from continuing the search for truth rather than our minds being inexorably imbued by archaic fiction? A paradox indeed!

[Muskrat Love]

Have I been anything but respectful and understanding?

I don't know. :confused:

[bengangmo]

I would consider myself an athiest.

I have a few problems with theists in general, and find christians to be amongst the worst, although I would like to state that I would never hold it against anybody and don't go out of my way to say anything about it to them.

1) The belief that people should be "shown the way" to salvation, an acceptance of christ to be "saved". I don't need to be saved thank you very much and don't beleive that you way is the way even if I did need help
2) Double standards - I used to work with a Muslem who considered himself devout, yet he cheated on his wife, screwed people out of money and propisitioned his female co-workers. It just didn't fit for me
3) Meaningless rituals. Strangely enough I like the concept of saying grace, and also prayer. I think a way of formally appreciating what we have, and what we are thankful for is great. What I don't like is the concept that to score "religious points" you should only eat certain types of food, or you have to sing songs of praise. This strikes me as putting pointless barriers in my way that serve no purpose other than game playing. I mean seriously - how the hell does it make any difference to "god" if I do or don't eat pork?
4) The lack of thought that goes into much of it and the whole way that (many) Christians will pressure you to their way of thinking. My FIL will come to us and say things like "Grandchild HAS to go to church this weekend
5) Having to be careful of what I say around religious people for fear of causing offense
6) I live now in Singapore - there is a real mix here of Buddhist and Christian. I have attended Buddhist funderals and participated in the rituals, much as I have for Christian. I hate the "exclusionary" attitude of Christianity. I Christian would not be allowed to participate in Buddhist ceremonies (although they can attend). I don't agree with this, and don't think an individual should be placed into such a situation.

None of the above is meant to say any religion is wrong, its just why I don't like them

[absinthe]

I'm sorry, I left out the part about age. My question was concerning the age you proclaimed to be an atheist. It seems people with no church in their youth would make their proclomation earlier, people with bad experiences in the church would be next, and people with good experiences would be the last. I'm seeing if that's true and am interested in hearing any exceptions.I began to doubt somewhere around age 12 and probably fully stopped believing when I was 14 or 15. My church experience was unremarkable (though I did tire of wearing dresses all the time, but that wasn't any kind of impetus for my disbelief). I left the church as soon as I was old enough to overthrow my mother's will. :) So I guess I am one of the ones that had a church upbringing, did not have a bad church experience and did not believe in god at a fairly young age.

[Doyle]

I don't know. :confused:

On this board concerning matters of atheism.

[Ichigodaisuki]

I began to doubt somewhere around age 12 and probably fully stopped believing when I was 14 or 15. My church experience was unremarkable (though I did tire of wearing dresses all the time, but that wasn't any kind of impetus for my disbelief). I left the church as soon as I was old enough to overthrow my mother's will. :) So I guess I am one of the ones that had a church upbringing, did not have a bad church experience and did not believe in god at a fairly young age.

I suppose many young boys would feel the same way, while others would go to church more.:D

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

On this board concerning matters of atheism.

I wouldn't worry about it. You haven't told us we're incapable of love or that we're all immoral (yes, this happens often), so you're pretty high up on the pleasantness scale.

[absinthe]

I suppose many young boys would feel the same way, while others would go to church more.:DI'm sure I must be missing something very funny, but I don't get it.

[Moon Dog]

I'm sure I must be missing something very funny, but I don't get it.

Maybe about wearing the dresses ?

Anyways I was bought up Lutheran. Sunday school and the whole routine. Have no bad memories or experiences. My parents were fairly laid back about religion.
In my early teens I just started questioning what I was learning and found that not just my religion but also others didn't really have the answers. Just lots of rationalisations.
Science seemed the place where I could get answers and actually encouraged asking questions so I never looked back.
By my late teens I was an atheist and have never found anything since to convince me that God/s were nothing more than an invention of man.

[bellybean]

Thanks for the honest answer. What denomination did you grow up in?

If this was addressed to me, the answer is Pentecostal.

When that is what you have always known as Christianity, it can be quite a shock to hear people's reaction to it later. When I started reading the Dope, I was kind of surprised about how much Pentecostals (and other fundies) were vilified (I think my church must have been pretty moderate as far as Pentecostals go--maybe because we're Canadian :). I also found myself frequently surprised by the mere existence of more moderate Christians. I mean, some of them even drink alcohol! It has been an odd, and ongoing, exercise in redefining my view of Christianity.

[Doyle]

If this was addressed to me, the answer is Pentecostal.

When that is what you have always known as Christianity, it can be quite a shock to hear people's reaction to it later. When I started reading the Dope, I was kind of surprised about how much Pentecostals (and other fundies) were vilified (I think my church must have been pretty moderate as far as Pentecostals go--maybe because we're Canadian :). I also found myself frequently surprised by the mere existence of more moderate Christians. I mean, some of them even drink alcohol! It has been an odd, and ongoing, exercise in redefining my view of Christianity.

I doubt I would continue to attend church if I were raised Pentacostal. But who knows? I don't mean to sound smug, but it's so different from the Episcopal Church.

[bellybean]

But I didn't leave because it was Pentecostal. The theological problems I had (and have) have nothing to do with Pentecostalism, but are pretty basic to Christianity. So I am pretty sure that I wouldn't be going to church now, no matter what church I grew up in.

Actually, that might not be true. We were pushed/encouraged to read and study the Bible. Maybe if I had gone to a church where it was kept more superficial, I would have asked myself fewer questions, and I would still be there. Who knows?

[Anacanapuna]

Philosophically, here's where I am with my atheism:

I'm not anti-religion. I have absolutely no use whatsoever for the Roman Catholic Church because I believe it and its heirarchy can never, ever transcend the centuries of brutal oppression they practiced in complete betrayal of their alleged theology. Try as it may, the RCC will never again be a source of guiding wisdom and spiritual sustenance for humankind. Likewise, I have no use whatsoever for the "feel-good" literalists who practice a mindless devotion to a religion that can be deconstructed in about ten minutes by any curious sixth-grader.

On the other hand, there are millions of good, spiritual people who understand, in the deepest parts of their minds and souls, that there is more to this life than physical comfort, that there is something mysterious and metaphysical about the human experience, and they keep going to church just to stay connected to their fellow humans through that channel. For them I have love, respect, and community. In fact, one could say that I'm one of 'em.

I always thought religion and conservatism went hand-in-hand because both dwell on the fear of the unknown, while liberalism focuses on the possibilities of free minds and souls. I'm not emotionally attached to that position, however, and have been known to adjust my beliefs when faced with a superior argument.

[Clothahump]

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

I'm agnostic. My argument with religion is that it is a lie from start to finish, and I don't like being lied to. I was also raised Episcopal, but I had questions which no one would or could answer. I started trying to find the answers for myself, and that is when I discovered that the whole nine yards is nothing more than a giant con game.


4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

I'm conservative. To me, one of the worst mistakes the Republicans have made was to get in bed with the religious whackos. We need to get a whole lot of gone between them and us.

[Ken S.]

1. I wouldn't say that God absolutely can't possibly exist, but I wouldn't say wood nymphs can't possibly exist either. I think the probabilities are about the same.

2. I don't read much literature on atheism. I've read The God Delusion and Christopher Hitchens' book (mostly for entertainment), but I don't personally learn anything from reading atheist treatise. There really isn't anything TO learn. It's not a philsophy or belief system in itself.

3. Nothing against organized religion as a whole. I just don't like when it's politicized or weaponized. I don't like when it interferes with human rights or intellectual progress, and I don't like being preached at. Basically, as long as they leave me alone they don't bother me.

4. Karl Rove is an atheist.

[MrDibble]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?
Active disbelief. But as I've said before somewhere, I would be an atheist even if God (as usually portrayed) exists, because I am a Classic Atheist. I am not "without God", I am "against God".
2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.
I think most athesim I've encountered is of the Rational or Materialist sort, so I think the love of books/learning comes first, atheism second/concurrently. I mostly read atheist books which are written to counter bad religous arguments, so a lot of evolution stuff counts as atheist literature for me.
3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.
It's not how nice people are being while practicing what I regard as delusion that counts. As it is, I don't go out of my way to antagonise religous folks, hell, I'm married to one.
4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?
Both atheism and liberalism arise out of questioning the established order. It's no surprise they often flourish side by side.

[Katriona]

I doubt I would continue to attend church if I were raised Pentacostal. But who knows? I don't mean to sound smug, but it's so different from the Episcopal Church.

I grew up Episcopalian, and enjoyed it (at least, the youth group and social aspects - nothing like having your current crush as a "captive" audience every Sunday night), but really was a full-on unbeliever by about the time my parents were pressuring me to be confirmed (@ age 12). I caved and went through with it, but I really thought it all a crock. I guess I pretty much left for good when I went to college. For me, it had nothing to do with the denomination; I just couldn't believe in any of it.

[rivulus]

1. I’ve heard two different definitions for Atheist: 1) One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. 2) The absence of belief in the existence of God. Obviously you can be both, but does one better describe you?

Mine is more the absence of belief. I grew up heavily embroiled in church life, but eventually came to a realization that despite all the social and philosophical reasons that I might want to be a Christian, I didn't believe any of it. I experience a complete absence of the presence of God -- and given the irrationalities in the Bible and other accompanying teachings, I have no motivation for faith, even deeply doubting faith. There's nothing there. And I'm much happier for coming to terms with that.

2. Many posters are extremely eager to announce their atheism, even at times when it has very little to do with discussion. Tell me what you learn from reading books about Atheism. Many of you, as well a personal friends of mine, seem consumed on being well educated on being an atheist.

I rarely bring it up, unless a topic on atheism or religious belief is already up and running. I don't think I've ever read a book on atheism. I find religious studies more interesting, because I'm curious about religious experience -- lacking that particular thing myself.

3. Why the hostility against organized religion as a whole? For the most part, I grew up in the Episcopal Church and have a hard time understanding any complaints about it. I can appreciate hostility towards tele-evangelists, hard right-wing churches, etc. Also, if you’re gay, I can see your opposition.

I have hostility about the whole Christian bait-and-switch philosophy which first posits the concept of sin and then, conveniently, a way out of it -- providing you have faith and follow the right path. ('Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace that fear relieved.) I grew up full of guilt about my sinful, lying nature (if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us) and yet lacked the perception of grace that offered a pathway out of it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is hell. Not surprisingly, I have some resentment about a faith system that could put a child in such a torturous position.

Oh, yeah, and I'm a lesbian. So there's some resentment there. Beyond the obvious reasons in the political sphere, I am also angry at the faith system that causes my mother grief when she wants to love and support me as her daughter, and yet struggles with the condemnation from her church.

4. Are there any conservative atheists out there? There seems to be a strong propensity for Atheist to be liberal. Why?

Don't know. I was liberal before I realized I was atheist.

[Pamplemousse!]

WARNING: SEVERLY TL;DR POST AHEAD (it kind of got away from me)

I didn't truly become an atheist until my mid-20s, although I'd say I was agnostic pretty much from early childhood onwards. Actually, my doubt process started at about the same point as Badtz Maru, for similar reasons, but the outcome was different.

My mother is Anglican (aka Church of England) and my father is Catholic. They raised my brother and I as nominally Anglican: we went to Sunday School, and to church services on Sundays in the early years, and although both parents stopped going to church after a while they're both firm in their belifs.

My problem, I think, came around the age of maybe 6 or 7 when I learned more about the Greek and Roman gods. I was fascinated by them. As someone who, at that age, unquestionably believed in God and Jesus and angels - but someone who was also young and flexible of thinking - I figured that if they were gods once they were gods still (since gods are obviously eternal) and I slotted them in quite happily into a larger personal pantheon.

I didn't worship them (actually, I didn't really worship God either - I said my prayers of an evening but they were always like wishes that bad things wouldn't happen to anyone I loved) but I accepted that they existed. If I'd thought about it deeply (which I certainly didn't) I'd have probably had trouble reconciling 'There is One God' with 'there's a whole heap of 'em'.

At some point - probably around age 10 to 12 - I did start wondering about the multiple gods thing, and spoke with my mother. Her personal belief was that there is only one god, but that people have seen that god in many different personal ways over the ages, and in trying to make sense of something so infinitely vast, the Greeks and Romans chose to worship Him in aspects that they could understand.

Well, okay, that made sense. I'd settled more or less into a generally deistic attitude by then (which about where my mother is now) and was happy to accept that there was 'a god' and that no matter what you called Him, if you lived a good life and in ways that would make Him proud, you'd go to Heaven.

Except, I couldn't really believe in Heaven. It was a real sticking point for me. And what would be the fun of Heaven anyway? An eternity doing...what? It just didn't compute.

I also didn't believe in the Virgin Birth, but then neither did my mum - she pretty much said that she suspected a lot of the biblical drama was concocted by men and not God, and that it was Christ's intent that we should follow, not the words of men in the bible.

She believed unquestionably that Christ was god's son on earth; that wasn't debatable. But the fact that she didn't insist I believe in a book of religion that was clearly flawed on so many levels held off my atheism for years. I found a happy place of generally satisfied acceptance and stuck with that.

Then, when I was 19, I went to work at an Anglican private college. I started going back to church (it was kind of expected) and that was the beginning of the end.

I got to see, every day, the hypocrisy of the people who went to church. People who took a morally superior stance, but who treated others in ways that Christ would have deplored. Then they went to church every Sunday and ... all was forgiven?

It wasn't forgiven by me. And while I accepted that it wasn't my place to judge, I couldn't help but think that if I could see the problem with this, surely so could God?

It shook my faith a bit; faith I hadn't really seen as a central core until it got knocked around like that. I decided to do bible study and get Confirmed in the Anglican church. Surely that'd fix it.

So I read the bible. Properly. And I went to bible study. And the more I read, the more I learned about my religion, the more I realised it was inherently flawed. It didn't make sense - and not on an overwhelming god-level (which I'd have understood) but on simple groundroots level. The bible failed to deliver...anything.

Of course, my mother'd already taught me that I shouldn't expect perfection in the Bible; that it was made by men. But that's not what we're taught, y'know. We're taught that it's the word of God.

But the bible is wrong, and self-contradictory, and quite often... well, mean.

And I thought to myself, "Okay, so God doesn't really do miracles on earth these days" (which had bothered me all along) " but surely if he really wants people to follow him he could at least be arsed to make his holy book consistent. And have just one, actual real religion following him." Because of course by this stage I'd made a number of friends over the years in many different faiths. Catholic, Lutheran, Seventh-Day Adventist... they all thought they had the True Faith. They all had different ways of worshipping Him.

Surely God could make a half-arsed effort and just appear once (in this era of television and global news) and say 'Hey, the *insert religion here* have it right: their book is correct.' Instead, every civilisation on the planet had, at some point and in some way, been forced to war with someone who followed a different flavour of God.

It was Hard Thinking Time. I'd avoided doing that, because it was more comfortable not doing it. And, despite having seen a lot of different religions, I'd never met an atheist. Honestly! I didn't even know such things could exist.

I lapsed into definite Agnosticism territory. There was (probably) a god, but if so, he wasn't involved in this world. Maybe he'd made it and moved on to other things?

There was still the sticky "...is there a Heaven? Hell? At what point does 'misthought' become 'sin'?" mess going on in my brain, but I didn't know what to do with it so I pushed it to the side. If God wasn't interested in this world (as I'd come to believe) then why should he care what I thought or did as long as it didn't hurt anyone? And why was he so hung up on the gays? What were they doing to anyone? (By this stage, I'd actually met some gay folks and found them to be not at all evil and scary. Funny, that. They sure didn't seem like anyone I'd be damning to hell.)

When I was about oh, 23 or so, I met an atheist.

Oh. My. Go....d? A what? Seriously?!

It was like suddenly a lightbulb went off in my brain. Of course religion made no sense! Of course 'god' was capricious and weird and borderline evil at times! Because, simply, he didn't exist. My 'god' was just the collective fear of the dark and unknown of generations of people.

It was like being adrift at sea and finally seeing the shore. God, Jesus, the whole shebang didn't make sense because it didn't need to. Not because it was the 'ineffable will of god' but because it was cobbled together from the religions and fables that went before it. I'd noticed the similarities all through my studies of mythologies of other countries, and at the time I'd neatly slotted it away under the handy 'one god is all gods' theory (which hadn't worked perfectly, but it was good enough for me as long as I didn't stare at it too long or think too hard).

Realising I was, undeniably, an actual atheist was a tough time. I couldn't tell my family, because they'd be sure to think I was doomed to hell. And in accepting that I didn't honestly believe there was anything beyond the void, I lost the last hopes I'd had for life after death, 'a greater purpose'... I'd lost my buffer between me, and the enormity of the universe.

I didn't honestly want to get rid of those beliefs; they comforted me. When I believed in god (however tenuously) I'd believed I had a unique place in the world; that I was the creation of something greater than myself.

Losing that was hard. It was also inevitable. I couldn't hold on to it; it shredded away before me, and the truth was hard, cold and implacable. There. Is. No. God. There is no evidence for one god, or for many. There is no 'divine will' being applied to our world. There is only the good or evil that each person brings from their own life.

I felt a terrible despair that this was all we had. That there was no magical Get out of Gaol Free card, that if it all went to shit that god wasn't going to step in and save us, that one life was all we got and that when our loved ones died, that was the end of it.

Then I had another realisation, which has kept me from despair ever since. If this is all we have, then how much more important is it that we actually live our lives? We don't get a chance for a do-over. You don't get a chance in Heaven to tell your family how much you loved them: do it now, SHOW it now. This is all that matters. Love your family, enjoy the life you have, and don't throw it away by working insane hours, worrying about trivial things, or fearing that the mystical sky puppet is going to curse you for having read the wrong one of his/her/its many books.

I've been happily atheist - unconflicted and content - for over a decade now. I don't have any objection to religion - in fact, I find religions fascinating and always have (probably why I became agnostic so early). I'm happy to hear about anyone's religion and their personal interpretation of their god. Having come from a religious (not churchy, but nonetheless devout) background, I understand where they're coming from, and I'm happy that they're happy.

Just so long as they don't try to convert me, all's well in the world. If they do, I don't try to un-convert them, I just step back from the conversation.

I've tried reading some atheist books, but frankly they just bore me to tears. Just as I find 'morally superior' religious folk to be a pain in the ass, so do I find 'morally superior' atheists. Yes, I think I'm 'right' as an atheist - so what? I assumed Christianity was 'right' for a long time, too: it was how I was raised, and '... how could so many people possibly be wrong?'

I honestly figure that people won't see new perspectives on their religion until they're ready to - and if they die without ever seeing my perspective, well, that's probably because my perspective would never have been right for them.

As long as I'm not being pre-judged as Unholy and Evil, I'm okay with any religion.

I do get very, very annoyed by one of our friends who blithely asserts things like "..and (so-and-so) is a Christian, so you know they're a good person" - not so much because it implies I'm not a good person (I know he doesn't mean it that way), but mainly because it shows a complete lack of critical thinking on something that isn't even god-related. People are good, people are evil. Some of the nicest folks I know are religious, and also one or two total sociopaths as well - what religion they follow means nothing: people are people, in all their many strange varieties.

I have friends who are pagan, Born Again, Bah'ai (as far as religions go, I quite like this gentle one) and Lutheran, and family who are Anglican, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness and Presbyterian. Religion doesn't play a part in who I like or why I like them, and we all play nice together. (I think it's a bit of a strain on the Born Again guy and the Jehovah's Witness, but they manage to check their Witnessing at the door, and that's all I ask. :))

Sorry for the essay, but hopefully it's been useful to have yet another atheist perspective.

[Fish]

Mystical sky puppet. I love that. Good essay!

[Baldwin]

Nice civil thread. I'm an atheist when it comes to all the religions, for the reasons noted by several others. Given what we know about people, it makes perfect sense that all the religions are just made-up stories; mythology and philosophy together. They serve a purpose for people who believe them, but it doesn't mean they're based on a factual description of the universe.

As for the larger ontological questions, getting down to "Why is there something instead of nothing?", who the hell knows?

Know what worries me? God-like aliens. The universe is very old, and if there are other intelligent beings in it, they're likely to have been around much longer than we, with such advanced technology that they might as well be gods. Can't trust those assholes.