Of the Palins and long dead issues

[bengangmo]

I am not democrat, I am not even American so don't go down that road in abusing me, but.....
two quesitons I am still curious about.
1. Whatever happened to the Clotheses of Charity? Did they ever get donated, are they still in someone's basement, were they cut up as cleaning rags?
And all of the related issues around this - is there a tax liability for Sarah (as I heard mentioned somewhere), will this come back again to haunt her in the future or is it dead forgotten and buried.
2. Bristol was supposed to get married to Levi right? Whatever happened to that - and has there been any serious fallout that she is now not? And related to that, there were accusations flying that political influence was used to get him that apprentiship position - how did that end up panning out. I haven't heard anything.....

[running coach]

The marriage was called off several months ago.
I seem to remember that redneck hockey player lost his apprenticeship.
I think the clothes are still in limbo.

Working from memory.

[Islander]

I don't belong to either major party and I don't do the celebrity worship thing. Consequently I'm not much help on these burning questions.

However, I did read that Levi called off the wedding, claiming that he wasn't "ready to be a dad." Probably the smartest thing he's done. I also heard or read somewhere that Sarah was fully aware of what the two were doing in Bristol's bedroom. How does that aphorism go? "Silence gives consent"?

I admit I was born well back in the previous century...but putting two teens together in a bedroom? What message does that send? What exactly was mom expecting?

[WednesdayAddams]

1. Last heard, she was going to donate them to charity. No word on whether or not this actually happened. Am thinking not.

2. It was called off. Very few reasons were given, then things started to get nastier and nastier, culminating in Gov. Palin's press conference calling the subject verboten after Levi went on Tyra Banks' talk show. He claimed he's not being allowed to see his son, his sister said that Bristol was very jealous because Levi was such a pimp in school... lots of redneck schedenfreude. Gov. Palin hurled some nasty invective at Levi and then said something so ridiculous that I still can't believe it came out of her mouth: that she would never allow a "kid to shack up with my teenage daughter." Cite (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/10/sarah-palin-levi-would-ha_n_185822.html) in case Contrapuntal should come huffing in and insist on one.

[Muskrat Love]

Has she ever provided a birth certificate for Trig? I know that the hypothesis that she didn't actually give birth to Trig is considered wacko, but there's so many suspicious and questionable things about that pregnancy (Bristol being sent away for a few months and taken out of school, Sarah not showing until the 7th month and supposeldy flying 12 hours after entering labor to give birth in a remote hospital, etc.) that I'd like to see that cleared up.

[Khampelf]

I saw a bit of a kerfluffel redux recently. It seems David Letterman did a joke about Gov. Palin attending a baseball game during a trip to NY, and her daughter being impregnated by Alex Rodgriguez (A-Rod) between innings. However, the joke writer didn't check his facts. It was the 14 year old daughter who was with her at the game, not the single mother daughter. Huffy indignation from the Palin camp about how dare Letterman joke about statutory rape, etc. Letterman explains it was meant about the older daughter, invites them on show, Palin camp says they wouldn't want to give him the ratings.. Blah blah blah.

[ASAKMOTSD]

... Letterman explains it was meant about the older daughter, invites them on show, Palin camp says they wouldn't want to give him the ratings.. Blah blah blah.

But did they invite Dave to come to Alaska to see Russia from there? Nooo-ooo-ooooo ;)

[Muskrat Love]

I saw a bit of a kerfluffel redux recently. It seems David Letterman did a joke about Gov. Palin attending a baseball game during a trip to NY, and her daughter being impregnated by Alex Rodgriguez (A-Rod) between innings. However, the joke writer didn't check his facts. It was the 14 year old daughter who was with her at the game, not the single mother daughter. Huffy indignation from the Palin camp about how dare Letterman joke about statutory rape, etc. Letterman explains it was meant about the older daughter, invites them on show, Palin camp says they wouldn't want to give him the ratings.. Blah blah blah.

Dave explained that he didn't think either daughter was with Sarah Palin - he thought it was just Palin and Giulani. His joke didn't mean to imply that one of Sarah Palin's daughters was literally at the game or that she was knocked up while at the game. Apparently Willow joined Sarah later on during the game, was not there when she first arrived. This was not part of the news story and I personally haven't seen any documentation that she was actually at the game, though I'm sure there's some proof (I don't think Ms. Palin is so brazen to make that up just to score points on Dave).

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

I think some people never quite get over not having the media belt down their door to talk to them.

I went through a period when people would call me up and offer me film jobs for a while. It made me feel very special -- it made me feel excited that people would wanted me enough to actively seek me out. The Palin media circus must've been like that multiplied by a billion, and it all immediately stopped about two or three days after the election. A lot of the peripheral figures in that whole mess seem to have been making noise lately and I can't help but think they're all feeling a bit neglected.

As an aside, I've lost pretty much all patience for 'manufactured outrage' lately. It embarasses me how easy it is to rile up impotent indignation and offense in an attempt to make X personality/group/programme/network kowtow to you. And these audiences fall for it again and again.

[Eliahna]

Has she ever provided a birth certificate for Trig? I know that the hypothesis that she didn't actually give birth to Trig is considered wacko, but there's so many suspicious and questionable things about that pregnancy (Bristol being sent away for a few months and taken out of school, Sarah not showing until the 7th month and supposeldy flying 12 hours after entering labor to give birth in a remote hospital, etc.) that I'd like to see that cleared up.

Tripp Johnston was born December 30 2008 weighing a reported 7lb 4oz. His uncle, Trig Palin, was eight and a half months old at that time (born April 18). I suppose Bristol could have been the mother of both, but the timeline is really tight and the reported birthweight (if correct) is typical of a baby close to, or at, full-term (my six-days overdue daughter was also 7lb 4oz).

I guess the bizarre aspects of the Trig Palin pregnancy must therefore be explained by his mother being an utter moron who made some bad, bad, bad and stupid choices during her pregnancy.

[bengangmo]

2. It was called off. Very few reasons were given, then things started to get nastier and nastier, culminating in Gov. Palin's press conference calling the subject verboten after Levi went on Tyra Banks' talk show. He claimed he's not being allowed to see his son, his sister said that Bristol was very jealous because Levi was such a pimp in school... lots of redneck schedenfreude. Gov. Palin hurled some nasty invective at Levi and then said something so ridiculous that I still can't believe it came out of her mouth: that she would never allow a "kid to shack up with my teenage daughter." Cite (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/10/sarah-palin-levi-would-ha_n_185822.html) in case Contrapuntal should come huffing in and insist on one.


Wow really? It seems like the family is a walking diasaster area for stories like this...it seems that there will be a lot to come back and haunt if another run is made at president.

Do you think we will ever hear what happened to the clothes, or is the matter just forgotten. It seems like everyone moved on before the matter was "finished" which is what bugs me to bring up again.

[Uthrecht]

No, no, we need to see the real birth certificate! Not some picture on the TV or some kind of processed form from the hospital! The certificate, with embossing and footprints and a lock of hair! Otherwise, we'll never know if the baby was born to Sarah in Nigeria in a secret muslim ceremony!

[The Superhero]

I think some people never quite get over not having the media belt down their door to talk to them.

This is definitely part of it. I also think that someone out there has convinced poor Sarah Palin that she's actually a legitimate 2012 Presidential candidate. So now she's doing whatever she can to keep herself in the public eye, I guess under the "there's no such thing as bad publicity" hypothesis. I can't think of any other explanation for her telling anyone who'll listen, "I'm so stupid that I don't understand how late night talk shows work and I can't parse a joke. Furthermore, I'm totally unwilling to accept an honest apology."

I mean, c'mon. Did anyone who saw that show think that Letterman was actually making a joke about a 14-year-old girl getting knocked up by A-Rod? Or did they assume that it was a joke about Bristol, who has, y'know, a history of getting knocked up, and who has been in the public eye recently babbling nonsensically about abstinence-only education?

As an aside, I've lost pretty much all patience for 'manufactured outrage' lately. It embarasses me how easy it is to rile up impotent indignation and offense in an attempt to make X personality/group/programme/network kowtow to you. And these audiences fall for it again and again.

I donno - this one seems to be falling flat. Palin's mostly just coming across as dumb and shrill and unpleasant. Letterman has admitted that the joke was in poor taste, and apologized for it. Palin keeps shrieking about it and calling Letterman a pedophile. Were I Letterman, I'd be asking my attorneys about my chances suing Palin for slander.

[Muskrat Love]

Tripp Johnston was born December 30 2008 weighing a reported 7lb 4oz. His uncle, Trig Palin, was eight and a half months old at that time (born April 18). I suppose Bristol could have been the mother of both, but the timeline is really tight and the reported birthweight (if correct) is typical of a baby close to, or at, full-term (my six-days overdue daughter was also 7lb 4oz).

I guess the bizarre aspects of the Trig Palin pregnancy must therefore be explained by his mother being an utter moron who made some bad, bad, bad and stupid choices during her pregnancy.

We don't have any proof that Trig was born on the date they claimed. The hospital he was supposedly born at does not have a record of the birth on that date.

Birth weights don't exactly prove anything, either. I was born two weeks late and was only 7 lbs. 2 oz. My daughter was born two days late and weight 8 lbs. 11 oz. Just some quick googling found babies born one month premature and weighing 7 lbs.

[WednesdayAddams]

I watched Letterman the next night expecting him to blast Palin for her histrionics. He didn't even mention her. I think Dave has made an excellent example of something many people (self included) have trouble putting into practice: DNFTT. The woman wants publicity and drama. Good on Dave for not giving it to her.

As for Trig: She was here in Dallas when she went into labor. She then stayed at the conference for another few hours and, instead of stopping at one of the four hospitals on the way to the airport (Baylor is RIGHT THERE, fercryinoutloud), insisted upon boarding a plane* for a 7 hour flight (source: expedia.com, non-stop flight time between Dallas, TX & Anchorage, AK) during which other passengers stated she was in no distress whatsoever and suffered no ill effects due to the pressurized cabin despite being "in labor" with her fourth child. Not having given birth, I have no idea if the assertion that births and labor get easier and shorter after each child is true, but it certainly seems so for a large number of women. Mostly, it makes me wonder why she would delay the birth of a Down Syndrome child for ten hours when there was a world class hospital not five miles from her location at the conference if as she said her primary concern was her child.


*I had thought that airlines do not accept women on planes in their third trimester.

[Uthrecht]

Well, Letterman's been doing this for 30 years now. He's had MORE than his share of people trolling him. I'd expect him to be getting good at it by now. Then again, even if Palin starts stalking him at home, he still has experience there...

On the other hand, was enjoying the heck out of Jon Stewart running along with Morning Joe, playing into the "feud". That's where people get into a real disadvantage with playing around with comedians: they can go the high road and be lauded for it, or go the low road with their staff of writers and comedic timing (and they're comedians in the first place, so they won't take the same kind of heat for it).

[Muskrat Love]

As for Trig: She was here in Dallas when she went into labor. She then stayed at the conference for another few hours and, instead of stopping at one of the four hospitals on the way to the airport (Baylor is RIGHT THERE, fercryinoutloud), insisted upon boarding a plane* for a 7 hour flight (source: expedia.com, non-stop flight time between Dallas, TX & Anchorage, AK) during which other passengers stated she was in no distress whatsoever and suffered no ill effects due to the pressurized cabin despite being "in labor" with her fourth child. Not having given birth, I have no idea if the assertion that births and labor get easier and shorter after each child is true, but it certainly seems so for a large number of women. Mostly, it makes me wonder why she would delay the birth of a Down Syndrome child for ten hours when there was a world class hospital not five miles from her location at the conference if as she said her primary concern was her child.


*I had thought that airlines do not accept women on planes in their third trimester.

Not only that, once she arrived in Alaska, they drove past a first class hospital to deliver in a smaller hospital closer to Wasilla.

Here is some details I found online:

April 17th - 4 a.m. Central Time - 1 a.m. Alaska Time - Gov. Palin calls physician to report signs of labor, specifically that she was leaking amniotic fluid.
April 17th - 12 noon (approximate) Central Time - 9 a.m. Alaska Time - Gov. Palin gives "luncheon" speech.) Leaves in such a hurry for the airport that the governor of Texas thought she was having the baby right then.
April 17th - 2:30 P.M. Central Time (11:30 - A.M. Alaska Time) (This is speculation, based on CURRENT Alaskan Airline schedule.) Flight leaves Dallas for Seattle.
April 17th - 4:40 PM Pacific Time (3:40 P.M - Alaska time) Flight arrives in Seattle. Since they gained two hours, this is actually a 4 hour and ten minutes flight.

April 17th- Numerous web sites state that Gov. Palin arrived in Anchorage "around 10:30." Based on current schedules, there are two flights that go from Seattle to Anchorage, one that leaves at 7 PM and arrives at 9:46, the other that leaves at 8 PM and arrives at 10:47. This gives a layover in Seattle of either two hours, ten minutes OR three hours ten minutes. It's impossible to say whether the schedule has changed since last April, but this is probably pretty close to what was in existence then. Departure times are in Pacific time, arrival times in Alaska Time. This is a 3 hour 45 minute flight.

April 17th - Approximate 10:30 Alaska time. Arrives Anchorage. This is now approximately 21 hours after initially calling her physician. Total time in air: 7 hours 55 minutes PLUS either a two hour or three hour layover in Seattle.

April 18th - Approximately midnight. Arrives Mat-Su Regional Center in Palmer Alaska, 23 hours after initially calling her physician.

April 18th - 6:30 a.m. Trig Paxson Van Palin is born weighting 6 pounds 2 oz.

To be fair, in my wife's third pregnancy she was in labor for 14 hours, but for all but the last 4 hours or so you wouldn't know it, except for her wincing when the contractions hit - she felt driven to clean the house, some kind of nesting instinct I think. But her water didn't break until pretty close to the baby actually being born, and Sarah claimed to be leaking 23 hours before she supposedly gave birth.

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

This is definitely part of it. I also think that someone out there has convinced poor Sarah Palin that she's actually a legitimate 2012 Presidential candidate. So now she's doing whatever she can to keep herself in the public eye, I guess under the "there's no such thing as bad publicity" hypothesis. I can't think of any other explanation for her telling anyone who'll listen, "I'm so stupid that I don't understand how late night talk shows work and I can't parse a joke. Furthermore, I'm totally unwilling to accept an honest apology."

I mean, c'mon. Did anyone who saw that show think that Letterman was actually making a joke about a 14-year-old girl getting knocked up by A-Rod? Or did they assume that it was a joke about Bristol, who has, y'know, a history of getting knocked up, and who has been in the public eye recently babbling nonsensically about abstinence-only education?

This is one that I wonder about. I can see the Oprah-type crowd honestly not getting it (that is, not understanding the whole 'late night' persona and the associated humour), but I'm having trouble accepting a political crowd - even viewers of talking-head stuff - as not getting it. This is pretty standard fare (frankly, I think it's a pretty lazy and obvious gag).

I donno - this one seems to be falling flat. Palin's mostly just coming across as dumb and shrill and unpleasant.

To you. The sad thing is that this stuff has its audience. I'll fully admit I'm pulling my case study from something totally different, but give this one a shot. This happened very recently in Australia. I'm presuming you haven't heard of it, so I'll try to give a brief (even though I know all about your American manufactured outrages). This basically concerns two programmes: The Chaser's War on Everything and A Current Affair/Today Tonight (competing programmes, but more-or-less exactly the same show on exactly the same timeslot -- sometimes they do stories at the same time demonising different parties in the same 'issue').

The Chaser is a sort-of socially/politically-concious satirical skit show combining commentary and stunts/skits -- think a cross between The Daily Show and Jackass. ACA/TT are ostensibly current affairs, but it's basically 'tabloid trash: the television show' - thinly-veiled promos, celebrities, diet stories, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAAAADDD, evil local councils being mean to OUR VETERANS, sob stories followed by supposed victims confronting snake-oil salesmen (sometimes after earlier stories promoting them), etc. To my mind, they're the single worst programmes on television and have a seriously deleterious effect on public... everything. The Chaser agrees and have spent around two seasons taking the living piss out of them. Of course they bit... for the longest time, they'd pretty much do a Chaser story every day ("have The Chaser gone too far?"), usually trying to generate outrage by deliberately misunderstanding the satire ("Has Mr. Swift gone too far? Mr. Swift caused outrage this week by his disgusting encouragement of cannibalising children").

They did a skit recently called 'Make a Reasonable Wish,' which I take as being a comment on silliness of 'feel good' charities in general. The basic gag was them going to hospital wards, children asking to go to Disney World or meet a celebrity and being told it's too expensive and the hosts suggesting that they might enjoy a pencil case instead. ACA/TT went with this story: CHASER GONE TOO FAR? 'COMEDY' SKIT INSULTS DYING CHILDREN. And their viewer base exploded in impotent, middle-aged fury. The network's radio station was filled with old women with tremulous voices in utter outrage over a programme they never watched and a skit they never saw, nor did they give any indication they understood. The show was suspended for two weeks and the network's comedy director was fired. The fucking prime-minister had a go at them. The important thing to appreciate is that they do skits dealing with controversial issues all the time and that the stink could've been kicked up over any one of them (the 'Do They Know it's Christmas?'-type parody with poor African children donating for a private school to buy a new kayaking shed, for example).

At any rate, the point I'm trying laboriously to get to is this: The capacity for certain audiences for unreasonable and unthinking outrage is unlimited. These audiences were born without any sense of irony or proportion and are easily driven to reaction by (often crude) techniques of emotional manipulation. In most cases, these audiences don't need to see what it is that has attracted their ire (I have heard that some sources have paraphrased the joke as explicitly mentioning the 14-year-old, but I really don't care enough about this particular 'issue' to look). These audiences trust these sources sufficiently and will be outraged on their behalf, and this sort of thing is especially magnified when you emphasise the individual (Palin, Oprah and so forth).

I find the whole phenomenon both interesting and depressing, and this particular case as just another instance of it (though I doubt it'll be as successful as our little embarassment).

[susan]

So now she's doing whatever she can to keep herself in the public eye, I guess under the "there's no such thing as bad publicity" hypothesis.Sarah Palin/Tonya Harding in 2012!

[Moon Dog]

They did a skit recently called 'Make a Reasonable Wish,' which I take as being a comment on silliness of 'feel good' charities in general. The basic gag was them going to hospital wards, children asking to go to Disney World or meet a celebrity and being told it's too expensive and the hosts suggesting that they might enjoy a pencil case instead.

The Chasers - Make A Realistic Wish Foundation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS36ZuCW-7c)

Do not watch if you are;

A: Easily offended.
B: A right wing talk show jerk.
C: An Australian current affairs show host.
D: Mr Sheen The Australian Prime Minister.
E: The boss of the head of ABC comedy department.
F: Completely oblivious of the concept of;
1: satire
2: irony
3: dark humour
4: any combination thereof.

I watched it live. I laughed :eek:

[Muskrat Love]

The Chasers - Make A Realistic Wish Foundation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS36ZuCW-7c)

Do not watch if you are;

A: Easily offended.
B: A right wing talk show jerk.
C: An Australian current affairs show host.
D: Mr Sheen The Australian Prime Minister.
E: The boss of the head of ABC comedy department.
F: Completely oblivious of the concept of;
1: satire
2: irony
3: dark humour
4: any combination thereof.

I watched it live. I laughed :eek:

I can't view Youtube at work, so I can't see the video, but I have to ask - were actual terminally ill children who were not in on the joke asked what they wanted and then told they couldn't have it? If that is the case, I would find it tasteless and cruel. I wouldn't be outraged over it, but I couldn't laugh at dying children being teased for amusement purposes.

[Muskrat Love]

I mean, c'mon. Did anyone who saw that show think that Letterman was actually making a joke about a 14-year-old girl getting knocked up by A-Rod? Or did they assume that it was a joke about Bristol, who has, y'know, a history of getting knocked up, and who has been in the public eye recently babbling nonsensically about abstinence-only education?


The claim that the joke was about Willow has been made even more ridiculous by the fact that there don't appear to be any photos of Willow actually at the game. All the photos show just Sarah and Rudy. Someone on another forum pointed out that Sarah did not claim that Willow was with her at the game, but that she accompanied her on her trip.

[Doyle]

Everthing Palin does has legs (no pun intended) because she's frankly pretty good looking. If she were just average, the press, comedians, etc. would pay her no attention.

[WednesdayAddams]

It's partly that, but not all. Janet Reno is a far shot from what I'd call "pretty" and the same crowd LURVED her. A trainwreck is a trainwreck. Carrie Prejean's replacement is equally good looking but not nearly the brain dead nut job. People don't even know her name. Looks ain't all that keep you in the headlines of the "look what that idiot broad did this time" section of the news.

[Doyle]

It's partly that, but not all. Janet Reno is a far shot from what I'd call "pretty" and the same crowd LURVED her. A trainwreck is a trainwreck. Carrie Prejean's replacement is equally good looking but not nearly the brain dead nut job. People don't even know her name. Looks ain't all that keep you in the headlines of the "look what that idiot broad did this time" section of the news.

I don't remember anything about Reno after she was no longer AG.

Didn't I read Carrie Prejean's replacement thinks marriage should only be between man and woman also?

[WednesdayAddams]

Did she? I hadn't heard. But that isn't why Prejean continued to make news. She posed topless and signed a contract saying she hadn't, she joined a political fringe group, she was a prima donna and didn't show up for photo shoots/publicity stuff, made the state of Cailfornia pay for her implants and would. Not. Shut up. About the gay marriage thing. If her replacement (you know, whatsername) has the same position, she certainly hasn't gone out of her way to make sure it's front page news for a few weeks.

[Doyle]

Did she? I hadn't heard. But that isn't why Prejean continued to make news. She posed topless and signed a contract saying she hadn't, she joined a political fringe group, she was a prima donna and didn't show up for photo shoots/publicity stuff, made the state of Cailfornia pay for her implants and would. Not. Shut up. About the gay marriage thing. If her replacement (you know, whatsername) has the same position, she certainly hasn't gone out of her way to make sure it's front page news for a few weeks.

Prejean did get way too political to remain Miss CA. No one seemed to care, including herself, when she was removed. She's making the most of her 15 minutes of fame. She made a career decision.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tami_Farrell)

Tami, like her controversial predecessor Carrie, oposses same sex marriage.

[Victor Frankenstein]

Wow really? It seems like the family is a walking diasaster area for stories like this...it seems that there will be a lot to come back and haunt if another run is made at president.

W. Bush has a closet full of skeletons. They came to light during his first run but zero traction.

[Uthrecht]

Old skeletons can generally get brushed aside. It's when it's relatively new stuff that it can gain traction. And if it's ongoing? Not good at all. What should be most worrisome to the Palins is her ability to make gaffes on demand. This stuff that's happening now could quite well be forgotten in 2010 and later. The crazy stuff she does IN 2010 will be harder to forget.

[The Superhero]

To you. The sad thing is that this stuff has its audience.

Yeah, you're right. Given this (http://www.firedavidletterman.com/), I'm inclined to agree with you.

Their rally in front of the Ed Sullivan Theater presumably just ended as I write this - I've seen no word so far of what their numbers were like.

UPDATE: The Village Voice is reporting a turnout quite literally in the dozens. (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/06/new_york_anti-l.php) Maybe as many as 100 entire people. I'm sure Letterman's days are, um, numbered or something, I guess.

[Eliahna]

We don't have any proof that Trig was born on the date they claimed. The hospital he was supposedly born at does not have a record of the birth on that date.

Birth weights don't exactly prove anything, either. I was born two weeks late and was only 7 lbs. 2 oz. My daughter was born two days late and weight 8 lbs. 11 oz. Just some quick googling found babies born one month premature and weighing 7 lbs.

I know close to term babies can easily be 7lb (particularly if the mother has gestational diabetes) but the Palin camp claimed all along that Tripp was due in late December and he was born right on schedule on December 30. If they were lying about how far along she was, they were either lucky she had him when she did or they had her induced prematurely to shorten the age gap between the two babies.

Even if Trig's birthdate is wrong, it's got to be something close to that, probably no more than a month earlier (when Sarah announced her pregnancy). That would require Bristol to fall pregnant again nearly instantly... I know it's possible, but I'm not convinced that a teenage girl having two babies nine or ten months apart including one with Downs is statistically more likely than Sarah Palin simply being a halfwit.

Supposing that Trig is Bristol's child... one wonders why Sarah only announced her pregnancy a month before his birth and made no effort to look pregnant. I wonder if the plan was to have the baby in secret and put it up for adoption, only to have Bristol change her mind when he was born, requiring a Plan B.

[Muskrat Love]

I know close to term babies can easily be 7lb (particularly if the mother has gestational diabetes) but the Palin camp claimed all along that Tripp was due in late December and he was born right on schedule on December 30. If they were lying about how far along she was, they were either lucky she had him when she did or they had her induced prematurely to shorten the age gap between the two babies.

The first exact due date claimed for Bristol (by Levi Johnston in October of 2008) was December 18. McCain claimed on September 1 that Bristol was "about five months" pregnant, which implies a late November/early December due date. I know it's possible for a baby to be born nearly two weeks late (I was two weeks late) but it is my understanding that this is not allowed to happen anymore, and that labor is induced well before then.

We have no proof that Trig was born on April 18, 2008, or that he was 1 month premature.

We do know that Bristol was pulled from school in December '07 and sent to stay with an aunt for 5 months. This was supposedly due to severe mononucleosis. She was supposedly still suffering from mono in April 2008 when she was supposed to have been impregnated by Levi.

My hypothesis is that Trig was born to Bristol in early April. He may have been born premature, which could have caused problems for Sarah who was planning on claiming that the baby was hers. When Sarah Palin flew back to pretend to have the baby, Bristol was already pregnant again, with a due date in early January. Seeing an opportunity to cover for the first pregnancy, the Palins and the McCain campaign lie about when Trip is due, claiming she is due in early December. When they lose the election, the motivation to continue the charade is reduced, and fortunately Bristol gives birth a couple of weeks early in late December.

[Khampelf]

*Update* As I type this, I'm seeing another piece on the Palin/Letterman fracas.

Dave has made a more sincere apology, and Palin has accepted, it a blatantly feminist/flag waving support the troops fighting for our freedom sort of way.

[susan]

"Feminist" she is not, whatever words drip out of her mouth.

[Moon Dog]

I can't view Youtube at work, so I can't see the video, but I have to ask - were actual terminally ill children who were not in on the joke asked what they wanted and then told they couldn't have it? If that is the case, I would find it tasteless and cruel. I wouldn't be outraged over it, but I couldn't laugh at dying children being teased for amusement purposes.

No and no.

[Eliahna]

The first exact due date claimed for Bristol (by Levi Johnston in October of 2008) was December 18. McCain claimed on September 1 that Bristol was "about five months" pregnant, which implies a late November/early December due date.This article (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/republican_race/2008/09/01/2008-09-01_bristol_palins_pregnancy_was_an_open_sec.html) from September 2nd references Sarah Palin's admission the prior day that Bristol is pregnant and due "late December". All the other articles I can find from around that time mention "late December", not early or mid.

I know it's possible for a baby to be born nearly two weeks late (I was two weeks late) but it is my understanding that this is not allowed to happen anymore, and that labor is induced well before then.I'm not American so what I've got to say doesn't apply under your health system, but over here they will let you go two weeks over, no more. However just six weeks ago my co-worker's wife went more like three or four weeks over her due date because within a day or two of her original due date they revised it, saying the original due date they'd given was too early. That's not the only time I've heard of that happening.

We have no proof that Trig was born on April 18, 2008, or that he was 1 month premature.That's true. He was looking pretty sturdy for a premature baby born less than 24 hours prior in these photos (http://tpzoo.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/trig-paxson-van-palin-less-than-a-day-old-and-already-a-celebrity/).

We do know that Bristol was pulled from school in December '07 and sent to stay with an aunt for 5 months. This was supposedly due to severe mononucleosis. She was supposedly still suffering from mono in April 2008 when she was supposed to have been impregnated by Levi.Mono doesn't usually last that long, it's true, but it can. And it's still possible to get pregnant while suffering from Mono :)

My hypothesis is that Trig was born to Bristol in early April. He may have been born premature, which could have caused problems for Sarah who was planning on claiming that the baby was hers. When Sarah Palin flew back to pretend to have the baby, Bristol was already pregnant again, with a due date in early January. Seeing an opportunity to cover for the first pregnancy, the Palins and the McCain campaign lie about when Trip is due, claiming she is due in early December. When they lose the election, the motivation to continue the charade is reduced, and fortunately Bristol gives birth a couple of weeks early in late December.
It's distinctly possible. Palin's shown time and again that she's of poor character; I can believe she'd do this. I can't understand why she didn't make more of an effort to present herself as a believably pregnant woman during the months before Trig's birth. Is she too vain to wear loose clothing and try to look like she's bulked up a bit?

While obviously not conclusive either way, statistics would suggest that the 44 year old woman is more likely to be the mother of a Downs child than the 17 year old woman.

[Muskrat Love]

While obviously not conclusive either way, statistics would suggest that the 44 year old woman is more likely to be the mother of a Downs child than the 17 year old woman.

75% of children with Downs syndrome are born to women under the age of 35. Of course, this is largely because women are much more likely to have babies before they are 35. 91% of children are born to mothers 35 or younger - so the 9% of older mothers are producing 25% of the Downs babies. A woman at the age of 44 has about a 1 in 35 chance of having a Downs baby.

As to why Sarah did not try to make herself look pregnant until her 7th month, there's a few possibilities. She may have been planning on a secret adoption and at around 7 months Bristol decided she was going to keep it. If they knew early that the baby had genetic problems, they may have been hoping for a miscarriage or an abortion - at 7 months, that second option was cut off. Or it could just have been procrastination. A certain set of people tend to put off things they don't want to do until the last moment, and Sarah Palin seems a lot like the people I've known with that trait.

[Muskrat Love]

No and no.

Then the outrage is pointless. They actually had their show shut down for a while because of that? Sheesh.

[WednesdayAddams]

As to why Sarah did not try to make herself look pregnant until her 7th month, there's a few possibilities. She may have been planning on a secret adoption and at around 7 months Bristol decided she was going to keep it. If they knew early that the baby had genetic problems, they may have been hoping for a miscarriage or an abortion - at 7 months, that second option was cut off. Or it could just have been procrastination. A certain set of people tend to put off things they don't want to do until the last moment, and Sarah Palin seems a lot like the people I've known with that trait.

Or they didn't feel comfortable giving up a child with a disability for someone else to raise. I would actually admire her some if that were the case.

[Eliahna]

75% of children with Downs syndrome are born to women under the age of 35. Of course, this is largely because women are much more likely to have babies before they are 35. 91% of children are born to mothers 35 or younger - so the 9% of older mothers are producing 25% of the Downs babies. A woman at the age of 44 has about a 1 in 35 chance of having a Downs baby.

That's right. The risk for a teenage mother is 1 in 1250. So if there's one baby with Downs and two potential mothers, one aged 17 and the other 44, then the odds are in favour of the older woman being the mother.

My co-worker was the one in 1250, having a Downs baby when she was 18, so I know it can and does happen. I still consider this one of the points that favours Sarah being the mother.

Unless someone leaks the paperwork, we'll never know I guess.

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

Then the outrage is pointless. They actually had their show shut down for a while because of that? Sheesh.

Yes, the children were actors. The manufactured outrage was specifically about percieved insults to terminally ill kids.

Yeah, you're right. Given this (http://www.firedavidletterman.com/), I'm inclined to agree with you.

Their rally in front of the Ed Sullivan Theater presumably just ended as I write this - I've seen no word so far of what their numbers were like.

UPDATE: The Village Voice is reporting a turnout quite literally in the dozens. (http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/06/new_york_anti-l.php) Maybe as many as 100 entire people. I'm sure Letterman's days are, um, numbered or something, I guess.

Hahahaha. Yes, the outrage brigade don't do this stuff in person. Show them an internet to bitch on, a radio show to complain during or a network to send a letter to and they will do so, but they do not do 'IRL' work.

I see this a lot from Americans (not all, obviously, but it comes up often)... this sort-of back-and-forth manufactured outrage about various comedians and media personalities. None of it is actual offense so much as an attempt to paint the left/right as being vulgar, often - as in this case - deliberately parsing statements in an absurd way. It's fucking pathetic, really.

I love the "I see idiots from my house" and "I'm a right-wing lunatic," BTW.

[Muskrat Love]

That's right. The risk for a teenage mother is 1 in 1250. So if there's one baby with Downs and two potential mothers, one aged 17 and the other 44, then the odds are in favour of the older woman being the mother.

My co-worker was the one in 1250, having a Downs baby when she was 18, so I know it can and does happen. I still consider this one of the points that favours Sarah being the mother.

Unless someone leaks the paperwork, we'll never know I guess.

I've reached a point where I question the truth of practically everything that leaves Sarah Palin's mouth. I've wondered if it's true that the baby actually has Downs Syndrome, as well. There's a lot of speculation that it may be fetal alcohol syndrome, that has some similarities in outward symptoms. Bristol was known to be a heavy drinker. A lie about it being Downs would serve three purposes:

1. To cover for FAS.
2. To make Sarah's anti-choice even in the face of defective fetus stance more justifiable.
3. To make it seem more likely that she was the mother instead of Bristol.

Someone in Alaska needs to steal a blood sample from that baby and do some testing on it!

[Fromage A Trois]

The Simpsons captured it well, I think:

Imploring people I never met to pressure a government with better things to do to punish a man who meant no harm for something nobody even saw.

[Uthrecht]

Well, are we even sure that it's a real baby? Isn't it possible they created some kind of animatronic doll and bring it out for limited political exposures? They probably wanted Palin to have more of a motherly image, and a baby delivers that more than older kids. But wait... are they really HER kids at all? Perhaps she's been stealing them in infancy from people living alone, upstate, where they can't defend themselves! And she probably did this with her newest! The humanity! This predatory nutjob MUST BE STOPPED!

[WednesdayAddams]

:p

I think that's why people aren't pushing harder about Trig. It sounds so conspiracy theorist to say "I'm sorry, Mrs. Palin, but I think you faked your pregnancy a la Desperate Housewives (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/947380/Bree-gets-fork-stuck-in-fake-pregnancy-bump-in-Desperate-Housewives.html).

[susan]

I'll be they're Russian babies. I hear they wash up near her house.

[Uthrecht]

I'll be they're Russian babies. I hear they wash up near her house.

You've one-upped me. Point!

[Doyle]

:p

I think that's why people aren't pushing harder about Trig. It sounds so conspiracy theorist to say "I'm sorry, Mrs. Palin, but I think you faked your pregnancy a la Desperate Housewives (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/947380/Bree-gets-fork-stuck-in-fake-pregnancy-bump-in-Desperate-Housewives.html).

The woman has been maligned by the press like no woman in US history. If they had any real evidence that Trig was not hers, you don't think they'd report it?

[WednesdayAddams]

Like no woman in US history? Okay, now who's going overboard?

[Doyle]

Like no woman in US history? Okay, now who's going overboard?

OK, I may have jumped to that, but I really can't think of anyone else. Can you think of someone else?

[WednesdayAddams]

Hillary Clinton
Margaret Sanger
Alice Paul
Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Betty Friedan
Geraldine Ferraro
Eleanor Roosevelt
Nancy Reagan

And those were just political activists & politicians. Not even getting into cults of personality like Oprah Winfrey (disclaimer: I loathe the woman, but there's no denying she has some serious clout).

[Doyle]

Hillary Clinton
Margaret Sanger
Alice Paul
Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Betty Friedan
Geraldine Ferraro
Eleanor Roosevelt
Nancy Reagan

And those were just political activists & politicians. Not even getting into cults of personality like Oprah Winfrey (disclaimer: I loathe the woman, but there's no denying she has some serious clout).

I may give you Hillary Clinton, but the rest, no.

[WednesdayAddams]

Seriously? Margaret Sanger? She was touted as Satan and a serial killer and the worst thing that ever happened to our country, and she was coming for YOUR baby, so lock up your pregnant wife NOW!

Nancy Reagan took so much heat over the thing about the psychic in the White House and the kerfuffle with Mrs. Gorbechev she barely spoke unless it was a prepared statement afterward.

As for the early women's rights advocates: the press loved to hate them. "The downfall of American Womanhood."

In all fairness, if Sarah Palin would just shut the hell up and concentrate on running her state, the attacks would probably go away. But she won't. She's addicted to the attention. Even when it is unflattering.

There will always be someone on the radar garnering lots of unkind attention, either substantive or immaterial. We tend to forget how bad it was in the past and say "wow, no one has EVER been criticized that harshly" when really it happens all the damn time. It's just that now the media is so prevalent in everyone's lives it's difficult to escape.

[Doyle]

Seriously? Margaret Sanger? She was touted as Satan and a serial killer and the worst thing that ever happened to our country, and she was coming for YOUR baby, so lock up your pregnant wife NOW!

Nancy Reagan took so much heat over the thing about the psychic in the White House and the kerfuffle with Mrs. Gorbechev she barely spoke unless it was a prepared statement afterward.

As for the early women's rights advocates: the press loved to hate them. "The downfall of American Womanhood."

In all fairness, if Sarah Palin would just shut the hell up and concentrate on running her state, the attacks would probably go away. But she won't. She's addicted to the attention. Even when it is unflattering.

There will always be someone on the radar garnering lots of unkind attention, either substantive or immaterial. We tend to forget how bad it was in the past and say "wow, no one has EVER been criticized that harshly" when really it happens all the damn time. It's just that now the media is so prevalent in everyone's lives it's difficult to escape.

Due to 24 hour news services, it almost has to be someone in the last twenty years. Now there's dozens of media outlets, not just the big three. But, did you even know who Sarah Palin was up until 18 months ago? I didn't, but I hate politics. Nancy Reagan didn't take the heat Palin has in her 8 years plus in the limelight. Like I said, I'll give you Hillary for cumulative criticisms. I agree Palin brings a lot of it on it herself and like you I wish she would just go away.

[Muskrat Love]

The woman has been maligned by the press like no woman in US history. If they had any real evidence that Trig was not hers, you don't think they'd report it?

Really, she is not being accused of anything terrible or evil in this case. If the conspiracy is true, what she did was actually admirable and not that unusual. Mothers claiming to be the parent for their grandchildren to save the reputation of their teenaged daughters is an old practice that can be seen in birth records going back to the 19th century and earlier. Geneologists often come across a situation where a woman has a few children in her teens and twenties, then no more children for a long time, then they have a surprise baby in their late thirties or early 40s, around the time her older daughters become sexually mature.

I actually think the explanation that she was not actually pregnant and was helping Bristol keep her baby in the family is a lot better than the story she put forth - that she was leaking amniotic fluid during premature labor for a child that was known to have Downs syndrome and chose to wait several hours, give a speech, drive right past one of the best hospitals for premature deliveries in the NATION, and spend about 12 hours on two plane flights back to her home state to give birth in a small hospital.

The problem for her, of course, is the lack of honesty this shows, and it also indicates poor judgement. The alternative shows more honesty but even worse judgement. This does not make her a bad person, but someone poorly suited for politics.

[Muskrat Love]

Due to 24 hour news services, it almost has to be someone in the last twenty years. Now there's dozens of media outlets, not just the big three. But, did you even know who Sarah Palin was up until 18 months ago? I didn't, but I hate politics. Nancy Reagan didn't take the heat Palin has in her 8 years plus in the limelight. Like I said, I'll give you Hillary for cumulative criticisms. I agree Palin brings a lot of it on it herself and like you I wish she would just go away.

Do you not remember the outrage when it was found that Nancy Reagan was affecting Ronald's executive decisions based on advice she got from an astrologer? I was just a teenager back then, but the impression I got from the news stories about Nancy Reagan was that she was a practically insane kook who was the power behind the scenes for her senile husband. Do you fail to remember the mocking she received for the "Just Say No" program? I'm no fan of the Reagans, and even I believe that Nancy Reagan got an uncalled for amount of criticism from the media.

[Doyle]

Do you not remember the outrage when it was found that Nancy Reagan was affecting Ronald's executive decisions based on advice she got from an astrologer? I was just a teenager back then, but the impression I got from the news stories about Nancy Reagan was that she was a practically insane kook who was the power behind the scenes for her senile husband. Do you fail to remember the mocking she received for the "Just Say No" program? I'm no fan of the Reagans, and even I believe that Nancy Reagan got an uncalled for amount of criticism from the media.

I didn't say she didn't catch a lot of shit. I was in my twenties then and fairly politically aware and it was nowhere near as much as Palin has received in such a short time.

[Doyle]

Really, she is not being accused of anything terrible or evil in this case. If the conspiracy is true, what she did was actually admirable and not that unusual. Mothers claiming to be the parent for their grandchildren to save the reputation of their teenaged daughters is an old practice that can be seen in birth records going back to the 19th century and earlier. Geneologists often come across a situation where a woman has a few children in her teens and twenties, then no more children for a long time, then they have a surprise baby in their late thirties or early 40s, around the time her older daughters become sexually mature.

I actually think the explanation that she was not actually pregnant and was helping Bristol keep her baby in the family is a lot better than the story she put forth - that she was leaking amniotic fluid during premature labor for a child that was known to have Downs syndrome and chose to wait several hours, give a speech, drive right past one of the best hospitals for premature deliveries in the NATION, and spend about 12 hours on two plane flights back to her home state to give birth in a small hospital.

The problem for her, of course, is the lack of honesty this shows, and it also indicates poor judgement. The alternative shows more honesty but even worse judgement. This does not make her a bad person, but someone poorly suited for politics.

I know this is your passion and it frankly doesn't interest me. Like any conspiracy theory, (which I believe in none) I use common sense. To pull off something like this she'd have to keep hundreds of people quiet. People will sell their souls to the devil for 10K. I think they might have rooted one out by now.

[SmartAleq]

Let's not forget Madalyn Murray O'Hair, that woman is still used to scare conservatives, like invoking Bloody Mary in the mirror or something.

[Doyle]

Let's not forget Madalyn Murray O'Hair, that woman is still used to scare conservatives, like invoking Bloody Mary in the mirror or something.

I might give you that one too. She was around for a long time, but rarely if ever was the lead story on the national news.

[WednesdayAddams]

She's definitely loathed in Texas.

I didn't say she didn't catch a lot of shit. I was in my twenties then and fairly politically aware and it was nowhere near as much as Palin has received in such a short time.

Okay, I didn't realize we were talking about a relatively short time period. Dunno. Lemme think about it.

[Uthrecht]

So we're talking volume, speed and national level of exposure here, correct? As in, multiple negative stories/attacks/slanders/whatever, in a relatively brief time (several months) on a national (or then-national) scale?

I seem to recall Mary Todd Lincoln getting a lot of flak, but it was mostly low-key and over time. Ferraro might be a candidate for it, I'll have to look up what specific kinds of things they hit her with.

[Doyle]

She's definitely loathed in Texas.

Talk about overboard. As I recall McCain/Palin won Texas.

[WednesdayAddams]

Huh? No, I was talking about Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

[Doyle]

Huh? No, I was talking about Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

That makes a lot more sense. Sorry I misread it.

[WednesdayAddams]

No worries. We're cool. :)

[Doyle]

Y'all keep forcing me to defend someone I didn't support and don't even like. Just take a look at the tag.

[SmartAleq]

Y'all keep forcing me to defend someone I didn't support and don't even like. Just take a look at the tag.

Wait a moment, we're forcing you? Is that like when they say, "I don't wanna hit you, but you make me so mad?" :p

[Doyle]

Wait a moment, we're forcing you? Is that like when they say, "I don't wanna hit you, but you make me so mad?" :p

You'll never see me pile on somebody and one of us has to be contrary.

[SmartAleq]

You'll never see me pile on somebody and one of us has to be contrary.

Well all right then, carry on! :p

[Muskrat Love]

You'll never see me pile on somebody and one of us has to be contrary.


We know it's because she looks like your wife. :)

[Doyle]

We know it's because she looks like your wife. :)

Yes and they're both hot. Mrs H has bigger boobs though.

[WednesdayAddams]

AND they're real.

[Doyle]

AND they're real.

Oh yeah.

[mozg]

Tripp Johnston was born December 30 2008 weighing a reported 7lb 4oz. His uncle, Trig Palin, was eight and a half months old at that time (born April 18). I suppose Bristol could have been the mother of both, but the timeline is really tight and the reported birthweight (if correct) is typical of a baby close to, or at, full-term (my six-days overdue daughter was also 7lb 4oz).

I guess the bizarre aspects of the Trig Palin pregnancy must therefore be explained by his mother being an utter moron who made some bad, bad, bad and stupid choices during her pregnancy.

That's if Trig Palin was actually born on April 18th. Since there's no hospital record, no birth certificate, and no birth announcement on the hospital website (although there is one for a different baby with different parents on that day), there's been nothing to corroborate that as the actual DOB for Trig.

It's also odd that Bristol Palin's pregnancy was used to prove that Trig wasn't her baby, since a hospital record would've done that quite well. It's also very impressive that Bristol was exactly the right amount of pregnant to not be showing but also have gotten pregnant 'early enough' to make it not possible for her to be Trig's mother. </conspiracy theory>

I actually think the explanation that she was not actually pregnant and was helping Bristol keep her baby in the family is a lot better than the story she put forth - that she was leaking amniotic fluid during premature labor for a child that was known to have Downs syndrome and chose to wait several hours, give a speech, drive right past one of the best hospitals for premature deliveries in the NATION, and spend about 12 hours on two plane flights back to her home state to give birth in a small hospital.

It's amazing enough that her doctor let her get on a plane at all when she was that close to delivery, let alone that she did so as an advanced-age mother in a high-risk pregnancy with a Downs baby, and that even while in labor and leaking amniotic fluid not a single flight attendant or airline employee noticed her condition.

She's a real trooper for the 12+ hours on two separate flights to get back to Anchorage where she then got in a car and drove to the tiny hospital in Wasilla, bypassing the larger hospital that was actually equipped to handle a special needs birth like that...

The story is absurd on its face!

[Islander]

Cancel...didn't see page 2!

[Muskrat Love]

It's amazing enough that her doctor let her get on a plane at all when she was that close to delivery, let alone that she did so as an advanced-age mother in a high-risk pregnancy with a Downs baby, and that even while in labor and leaking amniotic fluid not a single flight attendant or airline employee noticed her condition.

She's a real trooper for the 12+ hours on two separate flights to get back to Anchorage where she then got in a car and drove to the tiny hospital in Wasilla, bypassing the larger hospital that was actually equipped to handle a special needs birth like that...

The story is absurd on its face!

What I don't understand is why this story is not questioned more. There's no solid proof of a conspiracy, but as you said, the story she gave is absurd. Yet questioning whether Sarah Palin is the real mother of Trig is treated the same as suggesting that the WTC was brought down by demolitions instead of the planes crashing into them, even by many liberals. It's not like there is one or two suspicious details, the entire story falls apart under the slightest examination.

The claim that Bristol is the mother, though a likely explanation, does not have as much evidence for it. The way I see it, I am 99% sure that Sarah Palin did not give birth to Trig, and about 80% sure that it was Bristol's baby. I think it's more likely that Obama was not actually born in Hawaii than that Sarah Palin is the mother of Trig.

[Gordon Freeman]

The Chasers - Make A Realistic Wish Foundation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS36ZuCW-7c)

Do not watch if you are;

A: Easily offended.
B: A right wing talk show jerk.
C: An Australian current affairs show host.
D: Mr Sheen The Australian Prime Minister.
E: The boss of the head of ABC comedy department.
F: Completely oblivious of the concept of;
1: satire
2: irony
3: dark humour
4: any combination thereof.

I watched it live. I laughed :eek:

As someone not easily offended, but at least nominally attached to the RIGHT WING, I found this to be one of the funniest fucking things I've seen in a long time. Thanks to whoever pointed out this show, I now plan to get drunk and watch several hours of youtube.

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

As someone not easily offended, but at least nominally attached to the RIGHT WING, I found this to be one of the funniest fucking things I've seen in a long time. Thanks to whoever pointed out this show, I now plan to get drunk and watch several hours of youtube.

Their songs are some of their funniest stuff. Try the 'Eulogy Song' (though you probably won't recognise some of the personalities) and the Doctor Who song.

[Eliahna]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3SfNANtig) is my favourite Chasers stunt (Trojan Horse).

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

Yeah, that one was hilarious.

Remember that episode of The Simpsons where Marge protests that television programme and all the new episodes about them offering each other lemonade and hugging? I hope they do a whole episode like that when they come back this week. Possibly even several.

/end hijack

[mozg]

What I don't understand is why this story is not questioned more. There's no solid proof of a conspiracy, but as you said, the story she gave is absurd. Yet questioning whether Sarah Palin is the real mother of Trig is treated the same as suggesting that the WTC was brought down by demolitions instead of the planes crashing into them, even by many liberals. It's not like there is one or two suspicious details, the entire story falls apart under the slightest examination.

The claim that Bristol is the mother, though a likely explanation, does not have as much evidence for it. The way I see it, I am 99% sure that Sarah Palin did not give birth to Trig, and about 80% sure that it was Bristol's baby. I think it's more likely that Obama was not actually born in Hawaii than that Sarah Palin is the mother of Trig.

There's no proof that Trig is Bristol's kid. That is totally separate from the absurdity of the story that Sarah Palin told about the circumstances of the pregnancy and birth.

The first of the absurdities:

A 44 year old mother pregnant for the fifth time
Downs pregnancy
Traveling by plane at 35 weeks

I can't imagine any competent OB saying that was OK, much less what happened after that:

Leaking amniotic fluid/having ruptured amniotic sac
Waiting at least ten hours to give a speech
Embarking on two flights (TX to WA, WA to AK)
Driving several hours

And even if you believe that's true, you also have to accept that:

The OB who had privileges at a large, modern hospital with a NICU, close to the airport in Alaska where Palin's flight landed, and the capacity to deliver and care for a special needs baby delivers Trig in a small, local health center that does no high-risk births at all.

The OB actually went along with this, from beginning to end.

Nobody Palin encountered after her amniotic sac ruptured noticed that anything was wrong or that she appeared to be in labor during those 22 hours, including during the speech, the plane flights, and the layover.

I don't know who Trig's biological mother is, but I cannot accept based on that story that Sarah Palin told the truth.

[Muskrat Love]

There's no proof that Trig is Bristol's kid. That is totally separate from the absurdity of the story that Sarah Palin told about the circumstances of the pregnancy and birth.


That's why I assign Bristol being the mother a significantly lower likelihood in my opinion. All we have for that is rumors that Bristol was pregnant (that were common in Alaska from before Sarah's candidacy) , Bristol being pulled from school for 5 months and sent to stay with an aunt, and the wipe of Bristol's livejournal entries that happened around the time Sarah claimed she was pregnant. It seems fishy, but no solid proof. There MUST be some kind of deception involving the official Trig Palin birth story.

[bengangmo]

There's no proof that Trig is Bristol's kid. That is totally separate from the absurdity of the story that Sarah Palin told about the circumstances of the pregnancy and birth.

The first of the absurdities:

A 44 year old mother pregnant for the fifth time
Downs pregnancy
Traveling by plane at 35 weeks

I can't imagine any competent OB saying that was OK, much less what happened after that:

Leaking amniotic fluid/having ruptured amniotic sac
Waiting at least ten hours to give a speech
Embarking on two flights (TX to WA, WA to AK)
Driving several hours

And even if you believe that's true, you also have to accept that:

The OB who had privileges at a large, modern hospital with a NICU, close to the airport in Alaska where Palin's flight landed, and the capacity to deliver and care for a special needs baby delivers Trig in a small, local health center that does no high-risk births at all.

The OB actually went along with this, from beginning to end.

Nobody Palin encountered after her amniotic sac ruptured noticed that anything was wrong or that she appeared to be in labor during those 22 hours, including during the speech, the plane flights, and the layover.

I don't know who Trig's biological mother is, but I cannot accept based on that story that Sarah Palin told the truth.

I agree - plenty to doubt.

Is there any prospect of finding "de truth" or alternatively, what, in your mind would serve as proof if the story is indeed accurate?

Given that she has very publicly made unequivocal statements in public, is htere any way to force the matter (eg: DNA tests?)

[Sgt. Max Fightmaster]

I demand Palin release the certificate of live birth.

[Muskrat Love]

I agree - plenty to doubt.

Is there any prospect of finding "de truth" or alternatively, what, in your mind would serve as proof if the story is indeed accurate?

Given that she has very publicly made unequivocal statements in public, is htere any way to force the matter (eg: DNA tests?)

Being the head of the state government, I would not trust a birth certificate alone. DNA testing showing her to be the mother would do it, though I would still doubt elements of the official story (I would doubt the timeline of when she gave birth, though I can't think of a reason she would lie about that).