Patriotism v. Nationalism [Archive]

WednesdayAddams

5th July 2009, 08:00 AM

In this thread (http://giraffeboards.com/showthread.php?t=3766), several of us Yanks took to celebrating our country's birthday yesterday. A couple of other posters saw that celebration as 'nationalism.' While I was far too inebriated to debate the point last night, I did take umbrage at the term. There is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. As Metallic Squink so eloquently pointed out:

Supporting your country doesn't mean you support every single idea and action of that country. And on your own country's national holiday, do you not feel the least bit of gratitude for your home?

I'm one of the first out of the gate to criticize when our country or our elected officials do something I feel is wrong/unethical/hypocritical. That doesn't mean I don't love it. On the contrary, I love it so much I think it would be a disservice to keep my mouth shut and allow those elected officials to think that what they're doing is perfectly okay and I support those stupid actions.

Patriotism can lead to nationalism, but the xenophobia that's at the heart of nationalism is not found in patriotism. Rather it is the comfort and love of the place you know as 'home.' I have traveled a great deal and seen many places that I have enjoyed and loved. They still cannot match the relief and joy I feel when I touch down in my very own city and know that I am home.

It is perhaps a result of how we attained our country that results in our inordinate pride when we celebrate its birthday. But I will not cease celebrating it simply because others (who also love and appreciate their own countries) recognize that we've done bad things and don't approve.

Pencil

5th July 2009, 08:44 AM

You raise interesting points. We could quibble semantics, but I think, for the sake of this discussion, to distinguish between the two this way: Nationalism is patritism applied to (political) action. Whenever your hear a lobbyist, pol, pundit, rabble rouser invoke patriotism, you know there's some nationalism involved somewhere.

To many of us Eurotypes, the patriotism of Americans and the rethorical mannerisms of the political exchanges seem over the top, silly. I think so and I cringe a little whenever I hear the POTUS say "My fellow Americans". It seems a bit disingeneous (sp?), as there really isn't all that much "fellow" between the diverisity that is the US. Maybe the idea abolut America and patriotism is what keeps this giant mess of a country together and that's why you guys embrace patriotism.

Now, I can't type this without sounding as critique. I don't mean to look down on you, it's just that this patriosm thing seems so silly, but if you guys are happy with it, it's nothing that bothers me. There are a gazillion silly things that happen everywhere and if I were to be bothered by every one of them, I'd get an ulcer pretty soon. The patriotism/nationalism did bother me during the GWB era, since it got to be more nationalistic/jingoistic, and it affected so many people outside the US. But your flag waving on the 4th of July... Nah, no skin off my nose.

The reason I find it silly is that I can't fathom the reasons behind it. A person has no control over parentage or where s/he is born. I can't feel pride just because I'm born on one side of a line and not the other. National borders have a tendency to change and many times be the result of a guy with a ruler, many times, he worked for the British Crown. Belgium is a country because of a joint monarchy and some lines on a map. In practise, it's two federal states with nothing in common and with the EU, it's not as if it matters anymore.
I'm also sure that I have more in common with the Turkish Born headmaster of a Special Ed school in Copenhagen, that I know, than I do with fellow Swedish construction worker living 1k miles north of here, out in some rural part.

Finally, being born somewhere is not an achievement for me. No, I don't celebrate my birthday either. Getting a promotion, my local soccer club winning the league, graduating, getting married... Celebrating something achieved is fine by me. But I didn't achieve anything when I was born in Sweden almost 48 years ago.

KidVermicious

5th July 2009, 09:29 AM

When I celebrate the 4th, I'm acknowledging the sacrifices that others made in order that I can have the freedom and quality of life that I do. I'm proud of them for that, and I'm honored to be a beneficiary of their efforts. I think that to fail to acknowledge those who came before puts one at risk of taking one's blessings for granted, and that's one of the best ways not to deserve those blessings that I can think of.

I don't consider this patriotism.

Uthrecht

5th July 2009, 09:33 AM

My sense of patriotism isn't because I think I've achieved anything. It's because I'm proud of what other people have done to make this a significant and good place to live. And to me, patriotism means that you have a sense of duty to that country, to maintain it as a good place to live. This doesn't refer only to America, mind you, but any country of which you're a part. This is why I participate in politics, this is why I engage in volunteerism. Yes, there is a certain arbirariness in that I was born into this country, rather than chose it specifically. But it's a good one, and needs my input to keep working.

Bear_Nenno

5th July 2009, 09:39 AM

Getting a promotion, my local soccer club winning the league, graduating, getting married... Celebrating something achieved is fine by me. But I didn't achieve anything when I was born in Sweden almost 48 years ago.Why support your local soccer club over a soccer club from some other town? Your FC's victory means some other team had to lose. Why is your local team's victory make you happy, but the other team's defeat doesn't effect you?
It's natural for one to support his home team. American patriotism is simply that. Home Team!

bufftabby

5th July 2009, 09:45 AM

Pencil

5th July 2009, 10:57 AM

I think that to fail to acknowledge those who came before puts one at risk of taking one's blessings for granted, and that's one of the best ways not to deserve those blessings that I can think of.

I don't consider this patriotism.

Don't you guys have Veteran's day or some such? And remeber, some of those things you consider blessings made be seen as cursed damnations by others. I'll make it easy on myself and throw in freedom of speech. If you want to justify your celebration this way, fine. Just don't think it's a universal.

Why support your local soccer club over a soccer club from some other town? Your FC's victory means some other team had to lose. Why is your local team's victory make you happy, but the other team's defeat doesn't effect you?
It's natural for one to support his home team. American patriotism is simply that. Home Team!

But the worst that can happen ay a soccer match, a part from injured players, are some hooligans hitting each other over the head with beer bottles. When that passion grips a whole country over an issue such as religion, it's not as easy as saying "Go Team!", iss it now?

I shouldn't have done this. I've tried talking to Americans about patriotism for 25 years and we simply can't communicate. I cannot, in no way, comprehend the frame of mind Americans have or what they feel when Old Glory waves on the 4th of July. In the same way, I've never had an American comprehend (broad brush warning) the European frame of mind.

Uthrecht

5th July 2009, 11:02 AM

So, you're saying that the European frame of mind is that their own country isn't cool, has nothing to be proud of, nothing special or specific about it. The European frame of mind is that you're all just folks over there, nothing special about you. Why have borders? Why bother with which countries you let into the Union?

Well, I might be putting words in your mouth. If so, I apologize. Please, tell me what the European frame of mind is.

bufftabby

5th July 2009, 11:06 AM

I'm patriotic, but in some ways I'm a dirty hippie. I've got that whole One Love thing going on, too, and I don't see why I can't celebrate this Granfalloon at the same time.

KidVermicious

5th July 2009, 11:35 AM

Don't you guys have Veteran's day or some such? And remeber, some of those things you consider blessings made be seen as cursed damnations by others. I'll make it easy on myself and throw in freedom of speech. If you want to justify your celebration this way, fine. Just don't think it's a universal.

Sure we do, and on Veterans Day it's all about them. Ditto Labor Day, Memorial Day, Mothers Day, Arbor Day, I could go on, we've got a Day for most everything. For me, the 4th is about the whole schmeer, and I don't see anything wrong with taking a day to enjoy our quality of life, contemplate why we enjoy it, and, uh, blow some shit up and burn lotsa meat ;). I don't know why you object to this, or what you see as wrong about it. I don't know what you're referring to as "cursed damnations" or where you're going with that... I'm honestly confused.

Yeah, we've got some nationalistic rednecks/racists/jingoists that take the whole thing a bit too far, and we're not proud of them, and we're not alone in either of those things. We've also got some ultra-left radicals that choose to use the misbehavior and idiocy of a few retards as paint on the brush they're smacking the rest of us in the face with, and you know what? We're not alone in that either.

So, you're obviously of the opinion that the European frame of mind is better. I may be misreading you, but I'm getting a bit of a sense of contempt from your post. I'd like you to try me, and in return I promise to consider what you've got to say with an open mind. What is it that you think the "American" frame of mind is, and how is it inferior to yours?

WednesdayAddams

5th July 2009, 11:43 AM

Don't you guys have Veteran's day or some such? And remeber, some of those things you consider blessings made be seen as cursed damnations by others. I'll make it easy on myself and throw in freedom of speech. If you want to justify your celebration this way, fine. Just don't think it's a universal.

Don't we all have Veteran's Day? I thought it was shared by many countries.

But the worst that can happen ay a soccer match, a part from injured players, are some hooligans hitting each other over the head with beer bottles. When that passion grips a whole country over an issue such as religion, it's not as easy as saying "Go Team!", is it now?

No, it isn't. That's why on one day out of the year, we try to put that all out of the way and enjoy the one tenuous tie we have to each other. It isn't about being the best (at least it isn't for me) or about rubbing anyone's nose in anything. It's about being grateful for what we share. for the life of me, I cannot understand why that's bad.

I shouldn't have done this. I've tried talking to Americans about patriotism for 25 years and we simply can't communicate. I cannot, in no way, comprehend the frame of mind Americans have or what they feel when Old Glory waves on the 4th of July. In the same way, I've never had an American comprehend (broad brush warning) the European frame of mind.

Well at least you gave it a shot without poisoning the well. Thank you so much for not doing the whole preconceived notion thing. :rolleyes:

Moon Dog

5th July 2009, 11:51 AM

Bear_Nenno

5th July 2009, 11:59 AM

Don't you guys have Veteran's day or some such? And remeber, some of those things you consider blessings made be seen as cursed damnations by others. As I said: All of your FC's victories are another FC's defeats. There's always a bad for the good.

But the worst that can happen ay a soccer match, a part from injured players, are some hooligans hitting each other over the head with beer bottles. When that passion grips a whole country over an issue such as religion, it's not as easy as saying "Go Team!", iss it now?
I don't understand what you're saying here. We're talking about Patriotism, not religion. There is no national religion in America. There is a seperation of church and state for the specific purpose of preventing the whole country from getting united around a single religion. I lost where this had to do with patriotism.
Supporting one's own country is the same as supporting one's school, or one's Football Club. If your school is playing another school in the championship game, is there something wrong with supporting the school you go to and showing pride? Do Europeans not have school spirit?

I've tried talking to Americans about patriotism for 25 years and we simply can't communicate. I cannot, in no way, comprehend the frame of mind Americans have or what they feel when Old Glory waves on the 4th of July. I think it's clear that you are not comprehending something there.

In the same way, I've never had an American comprehend (broad brush warning) the European frame of mind.Oh please. I've lived in Europe for two years. I've lived in Southeast Asia for a year, and I've lived in the Middle East for a year.
There isn't the huge difference in frame of mind that you think there is.

Sgt. Max Fightmaster

5th July 2009, 11:59 AM

I also do not celebrate my birthday, so perhaps that might partially explain what kind of person I am.

I think there's really two componants to this: One is the 'patriotism/nationalism' divide and the other is the nature of American patriotism and how that is played out.

Charlie definately hit on one of the most pertinent points and that is that the 4th of July, draping yourselves in the flag, fireworks, etc. all seem ludicriously over-the-top and, yes, kind of silly. In Australia we have Australia Day (which, apart from it being a public holiday, no one really gives a shit about) and of course our requisite veteran/war-stuff, which is pretty solemn (and, again, no one gives a shit about). The former has a fictitous following that the government tries hard to promote, whereas the latter has more interest, but bothers me because of the unthinking support for war that is tacked onto it (I remember that little rat-bastard Howard invoking it for the Iraq adventure). Perhaps this experience has soured me, but I see sanctioned 'patriotism days' or 'patriotism events' as being exclusively the tool of governments (or, if you're as paranoid as me, 'the powers that be').

As far as the 'patriotism/nationalism' divide, I'm not yet convinced that there is a divide. Or, rather, I think that 'patriotism' is a term used by people disturbed by the word 'nationalism' (or, at least, 'mild nationalism'). It bothers me because I see 'country' as such an arbitrary and evanescent division. Maybe this comes from not living in this great superpower and having the somewhat European influence (the unstable bits, that is -- from friends and teachers and so forth) and, I suppose, living in such a comparatively young country. 'Country' does not seem real to me, and it is not something that I can feel pride in (not that I suspect I would anyway). 'Granfalloon' is definitely a term I'd apply in this case. I can support a system of government, but 'pride' would be the wrong word to use in that case.

I also find the concept of identifying with something to become incredibly dispersed with distance. I identify most intimately, obviously, with my house and, particularly, my bedroom. With my city, certainly - I have my various eateries and places that I've had important experiences. My state... maybe. My country? Certainly not. No more than I'd identify with any other (I'll admit) white Westerners. In a country as big as the USA... it's unthinkable.

Let me put this in the simpliest terms I can: I do not believe patriotism - 'American-style' or otherwise - serves a single positive function. It serves many negative ones, however.

I also fear that Charlie may be correct that I will pretty much will never understand America's 'thing' with patriotism, nor will they understand mine. This is becoming clearer and clearer to me at a rapid rate of knots.

KidVermicious

5th July 2009, 11:59 AM

And again we find a differing view by an outsider is obviously being Anti-American and apparently looking down on your mindset ?
Once again we find the same stoic defender deliberately looking to take offense at any viewpoint from another nationality as criticism and play victim.
I'm beginning to realise your self pumping grandiose patriotism is born of pure insecurity and a feeling the rest of the world is looking down on you ?
Why do you think Americans feel this way ?

Where the fuck did I do anything like that, cuntwaffle? I answered the OP, and when Charlie respectfully engaged me regarding my response, I respectfully answered him and asked a question in return. I dunno what the hell your problem is, but I'm starting to think it may have something to do with warts and goats and the undersides of bridges. Couldn't start enough shit in the other thread, thought you'd give it a try here?

I don't think I'd really noticed you around here before today. Think I just might try and keep it that way.

Moon Dog

5th July 2009, 12:03 PM

Where the fuck did I do anything like that, cuntwaffle? I answered the OP, and when Charlie respectfully engaged me regarding my response, I respectfully answered him and asked a question in return. I dunno what the hell your problem is, but I'm starting to think it may have something to do with warts and goats and the undersides of bridges. Couldn't start enough shit in the other thread, thought you'd give it a try here?

I don't think I'd really noticed you around here before today. Think I just might try and keep it that way.

I'm getting a bit of a sense of contempt from your post. I'd like you to try me, and in return I promise to consider what you've got to say with an open mind. What is it that you think the "American" frame of mind is, and how is it inferior to yours?

That's where. Nice debating style. Tantrums.

Is this what patriotism means to you ? Throwing a fit at an outsiders perspective ? Insecure much ? Why is that ? Americans current state of affairs ? The war, the economic crisis. Have you suddenly lost your security blanket of being in the bestest country ever that is the only superpower policing the free world ?

Zeener Diode

5th July 2009, 12:16 PM

Sgt, it might come as a shock to you but US citizens feel pretty much the same way regarding our world outside of our zip code. There are plenty of folk living within the US borders who feel their federal government fails to represent them fairly. You have the secessionists in Alaska and Texas; the deep-south who resent everything "Yankee-North"; the Aryan strongholds in northern Idaho; the obnoxiously parochial denizens of NYC and Jersey City; the "back-to-nature" folk of Northern California; and the Crazies who live in Los Angeles. I myself ascribe to certain level of isolationism with my low-level support of the creation of "Cascadia" (which is an utter pipe dream, like the other secessionist movements). There is not a lot of difference between us and other cultures. Most Americans firmly believe in and accept the division of Church and State, despite what our media tells us (and the rest of the world). We prefer to keep politics and religion out of public debate as it will inflame even the most level-headed participant.

Uthrecht

5th July 2009, 12:18 PM

I'm not sure the person throwing a fit is who you think it is, Moon Dog. Charlie seems to think the European frame of mind is superior to the American, as he has seen several believed issues with the American frame of mind as he puts it, but doesn't understand it. I think both KidV and I are probably a little ruffled by the framing, but are trying to engage him further to understand from where he comes.

Of course, that's my take on two others' perspectives, and could be wrong.

Sgt. Max Fightmaster

5th July 2009, 12:20 PM

KidVermicious

5th July 2009, 12:23 PM

Apologies for cherry-picking your post, it's a whole lot to quote.

Charlie definately hit on one of the most pertinent points and that is that the 4th of July, draping yourselves in the flag, fireworks, etc. all seem ludicriously over-the-top and, yes, kind of silly.

This is what I think may be part of the issue. I guess you really aren't aware that this is largely fiction? Yeah, we get our media giving us stuff like this, and I think your media must pick up the worst of it and run with it, but nobody sane actually drapes themselves in the flag (Kid Rock notwithstanding). I live in arguably the most conservative state in the US (Texas and Alaska might argue with that), and I'm telling you, the orgy of patriotism/nationalism that you keep referring to doesn't happen here. We had a country singer or two come out with a song about Afghanistan, it got some play in the south (which has more than it's share of rednecks, lets be honest), it's over. And we set off fireworks because it's fun, and in most states the fourth is the only time of year they'll let us buy them. There's nothing patriotic about fireworks.

Perhaps this experience has soured me, but I see sanctioned 'patriotism days' or 'patriotism events' as being exclusively the tool of governments (or, if you're as paranoid as me, 'the powers that be').

Politicians will do what politicians do. Personally, I'm sometimes torn between outrage that they think we're that stupid, and despair that maybe we really are. At the end of the day, though, I believe that saner minds will win out, and the rabblerousers will bugger off as they always do.

As far as the 'patriotism/nationalism' divide, I'm not yet convinced that there is a divide. Or, rather, I think that 'patriotism' is a term used by people disturbed by the word 'nationalism' (or, at least, 'mild nationalism'). It bothers me because I see 'country' as such an arbitrary and evanescent division. Maybe this comes from not living in this great superpower and having the somewhat European influence (the unstable bits, that is -- from friends and teachers and so forth) and, I suppose, living in such a comparatively young country. 'Country' does not seem real to me, and it is not something that I can feel pride in (not that I suspect I would anyway). 'Granfalloon' is definitely a term I'd apply in this case. I can support a system of government, but 'pride' would be the wrong word to use in that case.

This could be semantics. I don't have quite the same negative connotation of "patriotism" that you, but as I said upthread, I don't necessarily consider myself a patriot, either.

I will say that "country" is a definite thing in my world, and while I don't have the right to be proud to be born here, I think I can be grateful that I've got it pretty good. I think that when my government or country does something good, I can be proud of that, to the extent that I as a citizen of this country exercised my vote, made my opinion known, and played a part however small. I feel a shame and regret when we, as a country, do something poor, for the same reasons. Again, I do not consider this to be patriotism, but if it is, so what?

Zeener Diode

5th July 2009, 12:27 PM

Evey time I read a post from someone outside of the US border which points out a particular failing of our society or leaders, I take it in stride. I know some things that happen here are ridiculous, even outlandish by human standards. Everyone here cringed when dubya unleashed his "cowboy diplomacy." But we owned up to it, even as we satirized him and ourselves for going along with it.

I get that the US is the big player on the block. I get that others want to take us down a notch. I have no problem reading what others say against us. And I say there is no place I'd rather live. I love this country, and the opportunity it's given me to live the way I want. To support myself and others. To have the freedom to say what I want, go where I want and do (almost) all that I want.

Zeener Diode

5th July 2009, 12:29 PM

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to respond to with this post.

If I read you right, you claim to not have an affinity with your government beyond your immediate vicinity. I was saying that I feel the same way.

KidVermicious

5th July 2009, 12:30 PM

That's where. Nice debating style. Tantrums.

Is this what patriotism means to you ? Throwing a fit at an outsiders perspective ? Insecure much ? Why is that ? Americans current state of affairs ? The war, the economic crisis. Have you suddenly lost your security blanket of being in the bestest country ever that is the only superpower policing the free world ?

Tantrums? You're a riot. No, really.

I'll tell you what. You're obviously desperate for attention (http://www.giraffeboards.com/showpost.php?p=115052&postcount=128), and I do so hate to see another man beg. If you can find one other person on this board to, in good faith, characterize any part that post as a tantrum, or even aggressive, I won't put you on ignore. Deal?

WednesdayAddams

5th July 2009, 12:31 PM

I think there's really two componants to this: One is the 'patriotism/nationalism' divide and the other is the nature of American patriotism and how that is played out.

Well, as I said, I think it's pretty much the same regardless of where you go in the world. There are those who have a fierce sense of patriotism that crosses the line into nationalism. The only thing that changes is country of origin. A young Quebecoise of my acquaintance is so frothingly protective of anything that may 'water down' his culture that he resents television shows that may influence opinion. I'd consider that equally ludicrous to any nationalistic idea that comes from any other country, American or otherwise.

Charlie definately hit on one of the most pertinent points and that is that the 4th of July, draping yourselves in the flag, fireworks, etc. all seem ludicriously over-the-top and, yes, kind of silly. In Australia we have Australia Day (which, apart from it being a public holiday, no one really gives a shit about) and of course our requisite veteran/war-stuff, which is pretty solemn (and, again, no one gives a shit about). The former has a fictitous following that the government tries hard to promote, whereas the latter has more interest, but bothers me because of the unthinking support for war that is tacked onto it (I remember that little rat-bastard Howard invoking it for the Iraq adventure). Perhaps this experience has soured me, but I see sanctioned 'patriotism days' or 'patriotism events' as being exclusively the tool of governments (or, if you're as paranoid as me, 'the powers that be').

But not all Americans celebrate national holidays. Sure some do, and some do to a very great extent. Others use it as an excuse to celebrate the three day weekend, get out on the boat and do some grilling. So saying we ALL do one thing or we ALL say another is also silly. it's far too big and diverse a country to apply that broad a brush to everyone in it.

As to the 4th: It is a special day for us. We made a huge showy deal of telling an oppressive government to go fuck itself. Every year we celebrate that. So in a very real way, yes, it does tie into our identity. When your national message is a giant middle finger then sure, the rest of the world is going to take that as an insult.

As far as the 'patriotism/nationalism' divide, I'm not yet convinced that there is a divide. Or, rather, I think that 'patriotism' is a term used by people disturbed by the word 'nationalism' (or, at least, 'mild nationalism'). It bothers me because I see 'country' as such an arbitrary and evanescent division. Maybe this comes from not living in this great superpower and having the somewhat European influence (the unstable bits, that is -- from friends and teachers and so forth) and, I suppose, living in such a comparatively young country. 'Country' does not seem real to me, and it is not something that I can feel pride in (not that I suspect I would anyway). 'Granfalloon' is definitely a term I'd apply in this case. I can support a system of government, but 'pride' would be the wrong word to use in that case.

But that's you. Must everyone conform to your standards? It isn't about government. Or at least, not just. And I think there is a line. As I said: patriotism does not need to cross the line into nationalism. Xenophobia is not the same thing as being grateful for the things you have because you live in a specific country.

I also find the concept of identifying with something to become incredibly dispersed with distance. I identify most intimately, obviously, with my house and, particularly, my bedroom. With my city, certainly - I have my various eateries and places that I've had important experiences. My state... maybe. My country? Certainly not. No more than I'd identify with any other (I'll admit) white Westerners. In a country as big as the USA... it's unthinkable.

Says you. Again: as you said, it's a great big diverse country. Lots of people have lots of different opinions. One of the few things that binds us together is also the thing that underscores our diversity: we are allowed to have all those opinions and differences without being told by the government that we can't. IMO, that's something worth celebrating. That all of us can celebrate. I love that.

Let me put this in the simpliest terms I can: I do not believe patriotism - 'American-style' or otherwise - serves a single positive function. It serves many negative ones, however.

And I disagree (although not about the negative connotations). Everything has a downside. Some are more obvious than others. When we stop having good things to see in our government and what it stands for, then it is time to change it. Which many of us feel we did. But the guiding principles are things that we consider worth fighting for and celebrating. Obviously plenty of people agree; why else are there so many who emigrate here? So where does that leave us?

I also fear that Charlie may be correct that I will pretty much will never understand America's 'thing' with patriotism, nor will they understand mine. This is becoming clearer and clearer to me at a rapid rate of knots.

Well to be fair, it isn't as if you actually want to understand it.

Zeener Diode

5th July 2009, 12:34 PM

Moon Dog

5th July 2009, 12:34 PM

There is a difference though that I understand is not apparently visible when Australian politics isn't exactly on the worlds stage in level of interest or coverage, understandably so, only our near neighbours care about our foreign policies and how it effects them.
In discussing left or right wing, centrist or extremist we are actually talking about very different things. In Australia the USA centre seems pretty far to our right, our centre would seem pretty far to their left.
This means we both think we are coming from the same viewpoint when we talk about politics and nationalism but in reality we are both approaching it from different angles and wonder why it isn't meeting square on.
I think we'd have to define nationalism in such a way that we are all on the same page about where that line truly is before coming to common ground about which side of that line some things fall.

Moon Dog

5th July 2009, 12:36 PM

Tantrums? You're a riot. No, really.

I'll tell you what. You're obviously desperate for attention (http://www.giraffeboards.com/showpost.php?p=115052&postcount=128), and I do so hate to see another man beg. If you can find one other person on this board to, in good faith, characterize any part that post as a tantrum, or even aggressive, I won't put you on ignore. Deal?

Sorry. Were you talking to me ? I couldn't tell without the usual shouting.

Metallic Squink

5th July 2009, 12:39 PM

Some of this could be the result of the way Americans are portrayed in the foreign media. We aren't all draping ourselves in the flag, running and screaming through the streets with our faces painted - that would be a hockey game! When I read Sgt's posts, I think of China (where I lived for two years) where you had to go to government-sanctioned events celebrating your country and all it's military glory. It's not like that here. My city nor my state had any celebration. I don't even think people still throw parades on July 4th. It really is more about having a day to be grateful for what you have and to feel like you are part of a larger group where the only thing we may have in common is that we all live in the same country. It's not exclusionary (as someone I believe said in the other thread) because it's not about the USA being greater than everyone else. I feel the holiday is about being inclusive of all Americans because on most other days of the year, the average American is concerned about who is different.

I see patriotism as being a positive ideal. Like anything, it can be taken to an extreme and used as a reason for doing some very horrible things to other countries. However, that doesn't mean that it has lost all of it's positive value. It's analogous to religion.

WednesdayAddams

5th July 2009, 12:41 PM

I'd like to point out that our media, in particular the major network broadcasters (and narrowing down to FOX NEWS), have the ability to inflame an otherwise lackluster story with rhetoric set to push their rating through the roof. This is the true face of America that the world sees: a society full of COPS and America's Most Wanted news stories.

This is a good point. The vast majority of people don't have flags planted in their yard or cry every time the national anthem is sung or get offended just because France's president said his wife is prettier than our first lady. We're just these guys, y'know?

Bear_Nenno

5th July 2009, 12:41 PM

Let me put this in the simpliest terms I can: I do not believe patriotism - 'American-style' or otherwise - serves a single positive function. It serves many negative ones, however.I think any person would be hard pressed to find a positive functional component to patriotism. I mean, "it doesn't do anything." It's not like praying or clapping to save a pixie or something. Getting louder, drunker, or displaying more flags on the 4th won't fix the economy or help with foreign policy. But celebrations don't really need a functional purpose, and they make people feel better and closer to one another (albeit more distant to the rest of the world), and that's enough reason as any.

My home in Germany turned 900 this year. 900 years old!! That's a lot of history. There were large flags decorating the whole village. Every fest this year was a little bit bigger because of the 900th birthday. The crowd around the Maypole was huge, excited, and festive. Everyone felt alive and proud, and closer to each other. There was much to celebrate. But if you think about it, why should they celebrate. What did they do to make the city turn 900? Nothing.
They even had a parade! An hour long parade with floats showing every decade the town has existed. People wore the village crest and wore pins and displayed banners. They were proud of their village. That mindset doesn't seem so far off from the American mindset, does it?

Charlie, getting off of local clubs for a moment... do you watch the World Cup? Do you not vote for Sweden? If not, why? What about the Olympics? Do you cheer equally for all countries? Do you feel nothing when a Swede wins a Gold medal? If you don't, I think you are not representative of the "European Mentality". Why else would the Olympic Committee even keep records on how many medals each country has won? If everyone except Americans all have your mindset, then nobody would care how many medals a specific country has won. They're all individual and small team events, right? Shouldn't the person's nationality be irrelevant?

Everyone naturally supports Home Team first. And if you live somewhere and cheer for somewhere else, there's always a reason. Either you used to be from there, or you father was from there or something. Nobody cheers for every team equally. No matter if we're talking Olympics or local kids' teams. There is always pride and support for one's own team. I've seen it all over the world.

Even Islamic Arabs, who traditionally are not nationalistic, have pride for their home country. Did you see the reaction when Iraq won the Asian Cup in 2007? And this is a culture which is supposed to associate with religion over country. All the scholars will explain how an Islamic Iraqi feels closer to an Islamic Canadian than some Christian Iraqi. Yet they flipped the script when their country won something. It's all about Iraq, Iraq!! Flags waiving everywhere! Go Iraq! Ala who??

The mindset is similar all over the world. Those countries which have more victories to celebrate, just do it louder I guess.

bufftabby

5th July 2009, 12:45 PM

*wipes tear from eye*

Bravo, Bear, bravo.

*starts slow clap*

Zeener Diode

5th July 2009, 12:48 PM

This is a good point. The vast majority of people don't have flags planted in their yard or cry every time the national anthem is sung or get offended just because France's president said his wife is prettier than our first lady. We're just these guys, y'know?

There is a definite vocal minority that manages to capture the mainstream media's attention every week, and those ratings-driven corporations play them up to levels of obscene excess to the point that the casual observer will question their own beliefs. It is for that reason I gave up watching local and national news broadcasts long ago. (I'll add that when news of actual importance--- Katrina or 9/11--- occur, I'll tune in to watch coverage pertaining to that specific event.) I get my news off the web, without all the bombast and commercials.

Zeener Diode

5th July 2009, 12:52 PM

**Passes a Kleenex to bufftabby**

bufftabby

5th July 2009, 01:03 PM

Just call me Cry-Baby Walker.

sailor

5th July 2009, 01:30 PM

I'm a patriot, but I don't like nationalism. I think that I'd be just as patriotic to my homeland if I'd been born anywhere. All countries have problems (some more than others), but patriotism can take the form of trying to change the problems there. That's one great reason to celebrate what is good about your country, because it reminds you of all the reasons it's worth fighting to make it better. bufftabby, I am sure your intent in starting the other thread was above reproach and I apologise if my post there seemed uncalled for but please let me explain where I am coming from.

I am a great supporter of the principles on which this country was founded and all improvements made since. I am a great defender of Human Rights and general principles of Western Civilization. I think you and I and all the rest of everybody here would agree on that.

And, yes, we agree America has done many great things of which to be proud of. And one does not have to be American to celebrate those achievements any more than one has to be French to appreciate and celebrate French art.

What I take issue with is the fact that all these patriotic celebrations, whether you realise it or not, are part and parcel of America's jingoism and aggressiveness and are, whether you realise it or not, supporting them.

You may say that is not your intent and I believe you but the fact is that all these holidays serve the great cause of supporting American wars and aggressive policies. The shows on TV do not cease to remind us of those "who died defending our freedoms", etc. The shows are sponsored by military suppliers. The celebrations are intertwined with the military. Military bands etc.

Again, you can say it is not your intent but it is inevitable that it is perceived that way. This is like the debate over the confederate flag. Many say it is just a reflection of southern pride, not aimed against anyone, but can you understand how others feel it supports ideas they find obnoxious?

How about White Pride? They can say it is not aimed against anyone but can you see how, in fact, those outside see it differently?

Can you see how some people might be concerned about jingoistic manifestations in Germany or Japan? Specially if they were in the 1930s?

You say your thread was totally innocent of all this and I have absolutely no doubt of this. What I want to point out is that all these celebrations, whether you realize it or not, are playing into the hands of those who want to do and are doing things which are totally contrary to what you believe is good.

I have had this exchange with other people too. Socialists, people who only want what they think is best for people, but they do not realize that it can only be achieved by means which they oppose.

America is already way too aggressive in its policies and spends way too much on "defense" and these celebrations, whether you realize it or not, are geared to supporting that. Constantly we hear the military bands, about the heroism of the troops, etc.

Those troops were not wounded or died in the defense of anything honorable. They were wounded or killed in the commission of a crime committed by their government in the name of and with the support of the American people. They are the victims of American policies which are supported by these kinds of celebrations and toning it down would be beneficial for everybody.

It is the jingoism of the American people which made the invasion of Iraq possible and, whether you understand it or not, these celebrations serve and support that jingoism. It might not be your intention at all but they do.

I did not wish to rain on your thread or be confrontational, just tell you how I see things from where I stand.

Uthrecht

5th July 2009, 01:35 PM

Well, I can see where you stand sailor, but it seems as though you're saying that, because some people in America are being jingoistic and doing stupid things, to be supportive of the good things in America is to help them. That seems akin to saying that if I was supportive of Muslims I'm supporting the terrorists. It's possible to support one thing and yet not support something else, even if there are aspects in common. Just because I like nice white sheets does not mean that I support those that throw them over their heads.

bufftabby

5th July 2009, 01:43 PM

I can respect where you're coming from, sailor, although I disagree with your premise. I didn't celebrate the holiday in any way that contributed to commercialism or nationalism. I didn't even wear red, white, or blue, or buy fireworks. I think it's as unfair to say that we're contributing to jingoism as it would be to say that moderate religious groups contribute to religious extremism simply by supporting religion. We're like the Unitarians of patriotism here.

WednesdayAddams

5th July 2009, 01:56 PM

I apologize for how I'm about to slice up your post, and I promise I will try to keep it as in context as possible while answering your points.

What I take issue with is the fact that all these patriotic celebrations, whether you realise it or not, are part and parcel of America's jingoism and aggressiveness and are, whether you realise it or not, supporting them.

Could you please tell me how? I'm not saying you're flat out wrong, just that I don't understand how my back yard barbecue and fireworks translate to what you're saying it translates to.

You may say that is not your intent and I believe you but the fact is that all these holidays serve the great cause of supporting American wars and aggressive policies. The shows on TV do not cease to remind us of those "who died defending our freedoms", etc. The shows are sponsored by military suppliers. The celebrations are intertwined with the military. Military bands etc.

Absolutely. And more than a few of us have said that what is shown on those shows...isn't really representative of all or even most of us.

Again, you can say it is not your intent but it is inevitable that it is perceived that way. This is like the debate over the confederate flag. Many say it is just a reflection of southern pride, not aimed against anyone, but can you understand how others feel it supports ideas they find obnoxious?

How about White Pride? They can say it is not aimed against anyone but can you see how, in fact, those outside see it differently?

Can you see how some people might be concerned about jingoistic manifestations in Germany or Japan? Specially if they were in the 1930s?

Supports ideas they find obnoxious, certainly. But the same as endorsing slavery and white supremacy? No. I'm sorry, but simply because some may see it that way doesn't mean that perception is correct. There is a perception among many here that the Middle East is one vast desert wasteland without culture or education or beauty, only violence and oppression. Is that perception correct? Of course not. Should those living there constantly apologize for those elements of their governments and society over which they have no control? Again, of course not. Why, then, do some who live outside the US feel that if we show the slightest appreciation of our country, we must therefore be supporting every single thing our government does? We have no more control over those things than a peasant in China has over the building of the Three Gorges Dam. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to love our country, does it?

America is already way too aggressive in its policies and spends way too much on "defense" and these celebrations, whether you realize it or not, are geared to supporting that. Constantly we hear the military bands, about the heroism of the troops, etc.

Those troops were not wounded or died in the defense of anything honorable. They were wounded or killed in the commission of a crime committed by their government in the name of and with the support of the American people. They are the victims of American policies which are supported by these kinds of celebrations and toning it down would be beneficial for everybody.

And a large number of Americans do decry those policies and make demands for change. At the same time....No. I'm sorry, but no. Those celebrations that happened in homes across the country are NOT in support of those horrible things done by our government. I do believe you see it that way. I also think it's something on which we'll need to disagree. But I refuse to be held responsible for things I not only don't endorse, but have spent a lot of time and money working to fight against.

It is the jingoism of the American people which made the invasion of Iraq possible and, whether you understand it or not, these celebrations serve and support that jingoism. It might not be your intention at all but they do.

No. It was the jingoism of a corrupt administration that made it possible, and the knee jerk reaction from a people hurting from loss. That is not an excuse. What was done was wrong and should never have happened and many of us never wanted it. But continuing to hold a large number of people responsible when they had absolutely no voice in the matter is just closing your eyes to the facts.

And 'these celebrations' do not support jingoism. They support an idea. A very simple one: I'm grateful for my rights as a citizen of this country. That's it. A lot of people have equated them to mean a lot more than they do, both here and elsewhere, but that's what it comes down to. I'm not going to stop loving my country because you don't. I will continue to try to help improve it. Not because you (or anyone else) doesn't like it, but because I love it and want to see it stand for what it claims to stand for.

The thing is....ALL countries...ALL of them... have blood on their hands. To say any one country is much better than another because of what they do or don't do is closing one's eyes to that history. I'm not. Neither are most of the people who celebrated yesterday. it isn't about being "the best" or "better than" anyone else. It's about being. When the people of Iran protested against their government...did they stop being Iranians? Do you think they stopped loving their country? Does recognizing that their government did something underhanded and slimy mean they don't love their country? Please. They have their own reasons for loving their country, and whatever I have to say about it...it's up to them.

I did not wish to rain on your thread or be confrontational, just tell you how I see things from where I stand.

I appreciate your post. I hope you understand, while I do get why you feel the way you feel, I don't think it applies to all of us, or to all celebrations of the 4th.

sailor

5th July 2009, 02:56 PM

The thing is that you can't have it both ways: if you celebrate *America* then you are celebrating the good and the bad. You can't just leave the bad out. You can't say you have no control over what the government does and then say your love democracy here. You can't say you are proud of being an American when being an American is being one with those who have done and are doing awful things. You can try to separate these things but it is not really possible. Just like you can say you are only celebrating the achievements of the white race and it is not meant against anybody. You can sincerely want to do that but the fact is that the implications go farther and beyond your control.

If you want to celebrate democracy, human rights, rule of law and such things which America is supposed to stand for nobody will have any complaint. I will be right there with you. But you can't celebrate only the good things America has done while ignoring the bad things. Things come together. Or shall we celebrate the good things Hezbolla or Al Qaeda have done and ignore the bad?

But,again, I will join in any celebration of Human Rights, Rule of Law, Democracy, etc.

Uthrecht

5th July 2009, 03:03 PM

I will agree with you up to a point, sailor. Accepting something requires acknowledging both the good and bad. If we're going to celebrate George Washington, we should acknowledge the colossal mess he made while under Braddock's service. And the economic blunders he made because he wanted westward expansion.

However, just because I'm glad to be a part of this country, and feel a sense of patriotism doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge the negatives. In fact, that sense of patriotism means that I want to fix those negatives. I can celebrate my father on Father's Day without having to truck out a list of all the mean things he did to me. I spend most of the rest of the year grousing at the crappy job the government does, the state of most of the nimrods in my country, and various other issues I have. How about, for one day, I stop and remind myself why I like my country, and how I'd like it to be?

WednesdayAddams

5th July 2009, 03:05 PM

Actually... your second paragraph more or less nails it. For one day, I can celebrate the ideals my country is supposed to stand for. I'm not endorsing ignoring the bad and only concentrating on the good. I'm saying for one day a year, I'm going to celebrate the things I work the other 364 days to make true. And frankly, I don't think that asking for one day out of 365 to celebrate the things you mentioned is too much, so long as we don't turn a blind eye the remaining 364.

Zeener Diode

5th July 2009, 03:12 PM

You guys said that better than me.

sailor

5th July 2009, 03:41 PM

All that is fine and well, except that the tenor of the celebration, nation-wide, *is* jingoistic and militaristic so this is a bit like someone celebrating Nazi day by saying he is only celebrating the good stuff. Yes, it is theoretically possible but in practice he is just adding to the celebration.

The whole 4th of July thing is very jingoistic and militaristic. You can say your particular celebration has nothing to do with that and you may believe that but I do not believe it is possible.

I believe there is a very direct connection between all these celebrations (Memorial Day, Veterans Day, 4th of July, etc) and America's aggressive policies. It is no coincidence.

On Memorial Day you hear the same argument: we are not judging the war, we are only remembering those who gave their lives for the country. But the fact is that it is done in a way which *does* support the war and wars to come.

There is never a word about how wrong it is and there is always praise for those who "defend their country", etc.

It is possible to celebrate and promote peace, Human Rights, etc. and nobody would have any quarrel with that except those who would say it is "attacking America".

WednesdayAddams

5th July 2009, 03:49 PM

Are you saying the backyard barbecues are the same as the planned military and government demonstrations on the 4th? Don't you think that's going a bit far? No government agency is telling me I have to throw a picnic and invite all my friends and celebrate. No one is telling me I have to celebrate at all. I'm not required as a citizen to take part in the glorious people's demonstration of fealty to our blessed nation or anything. You're going a little over the top. Just as over the top as those people who say that any criticism is 'hating' on America.

Pamplemousse!

5th July 2009, 03:51 PM

Uthrecht

5th July 2009, 03:56 PM

Well Bytes, I certainly don't mean to be acting in a way that is giving you no slack. I have no problem with someone outside the US taking a dim view to it. The only point I have in these points is that I agree with the thought that there is a difference between pride in your country, and blindness to its faults and anger to all those who challenge it. I consider patriotism to be a positive thing: it makes you want to build up your country and fight against things that break it down. Nationalism is what makes people rename Freedom Fries and tell people that don't have to be our enemies to "Bring it on."

I agree with all your points, and have agreed with them from the beginning. I'm just trying to differentiate the positive attitudes from those negative ones.

Pencil

5th July 2009, 04:00 PM

I am not going to try to post something coherent while drunk. This is just to say that I'll try my best to respond tomorrow.

One thing though -
There are things American I don't understand, but that doesn't change my love for the country or its people. On the scale of pros and cons, the pros have a solid majority. But the issue here is patriotism, something I regard as unbecomming in my own country and thus regard with suspicious eyes in other countries. Obviously, this means that my frame of mind is skewed against patriotism. But the OP specifically wanted to find the dividing line between patriotism and nationalisdm in the light of the 4th of July celebration. And it's kinda hard to do that without discussing emotions, since it's a subject based on emotions.

Scanning the reponses so, and I'll do better after sleeping off the wine, it seems as if questioning patriotism per se is not an issue here- If thet's the case, then nothing I write will convince you guys that there are other ways to see things. Not better, just different.

See you in the morn.

KidVermicious

5th July 2009, 04:01 PM

(I'd like to add: biscuits and gravy! Fuck yeah!)

Excellent, a collaborationist. You may have extra rations.

Unless you're putting gravy on a cookie. That's just gross.

Pamplemousse!

5th July 2009, 04:04 PM

Well Bytes, I certainly don't mean to be acting in a way that is giving you no slack.Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were. I'm just trying to explain why there's a little bit of The Crazy over here, too. :)

ETA: I do miss biscuits (of the US variety) and gravy. I only got to have them once, and they were the Breakfast Food of the Gods. Damper'd be a reasonable substitute, but I'm not sure I could recreate the gravy. Maybe if I used chevapchivis instead of our kind of sausage.

Uthrecht

5th July 2009, 04:06 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were. I'm just trying to explain why there's a little bit of The Crazy over here, too. :)

No sweat, as I said I didn't take it negatively at all.

And sailor, I'd be happy to hear your take on things in the morning. If we're working on different definitions of patriotism, that could be what's holding us apart on this. Maybe we can come to a middle ground on the definition, or an acceptible alternate term.

Sgt. Max Fightmaster

6th July 2009, 09:45 AM

First of all, it's not like Nationalism is restricted to the US. Watch the news on Australia Day and you'll see people draping themselves in the flag (ugh), painting themselves with flag body paint or green'n'gold, and generally carrying on in totally embarassing ways and taking the aggressive "Australia: love it or leave it" attitude. We like to pretend those people don't exist in our country, but they do.

Exactly. I despise the same thing here. It's no coincidence that Howard bloated this sort of nonsense as much as he could: It was very productive to create a social taboo around daring to question our government (and plus it bought into the racism and divisiveness that he basically floated his entire career on).

When Bush was in charge,US nationalism did get out of control - and even you guys were disturbed by it, as the forums showed. Now you've got a great new president who isn't a psychotic loon, and we're pleased. But while Americans may have moved on, the rest of the world is still wary of any 'US Pride' activities, because we've learned to distrust it as a sign of Crazy. We don't know what it's leading into, but we've had plenty of reason and experience to assume something bad.

[...]

In our case, we pretty much came to see American Pride as a dangerous, crazy force that could be used to justify any kind of behaviour. Heck, much as I like individual Americans (a lot); I'm still not keen on America The Entity.

I do not I agree with all of this, but it is an important point. I remember an earlier thread about a lot of the hatred related to Japan coming from the disgust with their percieved celebration of their role in WW2. I do not have much stomach for American jingoism right now -- think of it like a Japanese 'patriotic event' (with distinct militaristic overtones) held in 1947 or so.

If I read you right, you claim to not have an affinity with your government beyond your immediate vicinity. I was saying that I feel the same way.

Sort of. I don't really connect it to 'government' like that. My attatchments are fairly superficial.

But not all Americans celebrate national holidays. Sure some do, and some do to a very great extent. Others use it as an excuse to celebrate the three day weekend, get out on the boat and do some grilling. So saying we ALL do one thing or we ALL say another is also silly. it's far too big and diverse a country to apply that broad a brush to everyone in it.

I think this thread and the American blow-up pretty much proves that it isn't fiction. We're talking in generalities, sure. What do you expect?

I mean, look, dude, I can only take the experiences of my father, of Americans that I've met, of my appreciation of US pop culture and US politics and so forth. It is postively grotesque. Now I'm sure you're going to have a different tolerence for such nonsense than I will, but all I can say is that I see it as particularly grotesque. As I mentioned, no one here really gives a shit about Australia Day, save a group of angry young men that will get sloshed and beat up some wogs for the green and gold. It's barely even mentioned on television.

As to the 4th: It is a special day for us. We made a huge showy deal of telling an oppressive government to go fuck itself. Every year we celebrate that. So in a very real way, yes, it does tie into our identity. When your national message is a giant middle finger then sure, the rest of the world is going to take that as an insult.

It has nothing to do with that. Everyone thinks they're special.

But that's you. Must everyone conform to your standards? It isn't about government. Or at least, not just. And I think there is a line. As I said: patriotism does not need to cross the line into nationalism. Xenophobia is not the same thing as being grateful for the things you have because you live in a specific country.

Of course it's about government. Without government, you're a lump of dirt. I can't think of any way to acknowledge it has significance without specific reference to government.

It's very easy to write off negatives as some transient perfidious influence or attempt to hijack some event, but is unsatisfying: The very event exists to serve such interests. And you see the success in these discussions, as [please don't make me look up who posted it] says more-or-less that they take the 4th of July as an encouragement not to think about the sore points of America.

It very deliberately is used to erect a big social taboo around criticising and to enforce a notion of groupthink. And I think we've seen time and time again how that can be effective. Getting back to pop-culture, I see people consume the most absurd things - and being encouraged to consume the most absurd things - in the name of appeals to patriotism and so forth.

Says you. Again: as you said, it's a great big diverse country. Lots of people have lots of different opinions. One of the few things that binds us together is also the thing that underscores our diversity: we are allowed to have all those opinions and differences without being told by the government that we can't. IMO, that's something worth celebrating. That all of us can celebrate. I love that.

Obviously says me. That's why my username is above my post.

I don't really give a rat's what you find worth celebrating. The question is more fundamental: Why does the whole institution exist? You see, if you ask yourself what you're celebrating then you've already skipped over the most important question.

I have my own sort of 'events,' if you will. I'm skeevy on the whole idea of themed holidays for the reason that I wonder why they're there. Another concern is the fact that I think it's all a load of bollocks. We have a veteran's/war-holiday that gives a day to pretend we give a shit about dead soldiers, which in theory assuages our guilt for the rest of the year, during which we neither give a shit about nor pretend to give a shit about dead soldiers. I have no desire to pretend that I believe things for social convenience, and faux-patriotism is a particularly odious category here.

I think any person would be hard pressed to find a positive functional component to patriotism. I mean, "it doesn't do anything." It's not like praying or clapping to save a pixie or something. Getting louder, drunker, or displaying more flags on the 4th won't fix the economy or help with foreign policy. But celebrations don't really need a functional purpose, and they make people feel better and closer to one another (albeit more distant to the rest of the world), and that's enough reason as any.[etc.]

You bring up soccer and so forth, but I think that's invalid: Soccer serves, at worst, a commercial purpose.

As for religious celebrations, I still have to cite militarism as being the important distinction. While they're as divisive and so forth as any manufactured patriotism event, they're not inextricably tied into the mythology of war (of course, this is going to depend on the group in question). I wouldn't say that there's any other celebration we can liken to manufactured patriotism.

WednesdayAddams

6th July 2009, 10:03 AM

I do not I agree with all of this, but it is an important point. I remember an earlier thread about a lot of the hatred related to Japan coming from the disgust with their percieved celebration of their role in WW2. I do not have much stomach for American jingoism right now -- think of it like a Japanese 'patriotic event' (with distinct militaristic overtones) held in 1947 or so.

So then it's possible you're not the most objective of witnesses?

I think this thread and the American blow-up pretty much proves that it isn't fiction. We're talking in generalities, sure. What do you expect?

Not to be generalized. But...tell you what. Talk to Moon Dog about the entire discussion he and I had this morning. I said it then and I'll say it again: My sole reason for getting pissed off was the fact that you both insisted on thread shitting. If you want to slam the US (or any other country) over what they've done wrong (plenty), go ahead. I have no beef with that. I started this thread specifically in order to discuss the entire thing. That wasn't good enough. It was necessary to stay in that thread and keep on pissing. Obviously you do have strong feelings about the US in specific because although Bytes pointed out and you agreed that nationalism isn't restricted to the US, that's where you steered it right back to.

I mean, look, dude, I can only take the experiences of my father, of Americans that I've met, of my appreciation of US pop culture and US politics and so forth. It is postively grotesque. Now I'm sure you're going to have a different tolerence for such nonsense than I will, but all I can say is that I see it as particularly grotesque. As I mentioned, no one here really gives a shit about Australia Day, save a group of angry young men that will get sloshed and beat up some wogs for the green and gold. It's barely even mentioned on television.

Then that's how you see it. I very much doubt anything I can say or do is going to change that, but I would greatly appreciate it if you would not ascribe motivations to me that I don't have. That's something else that gets on my last nerve. You don't know me, you're probably never going to. Don't tell me what I mean and what I intend. Now, you are more than welcome to question my intentions and I will give you a completely honest answer. Up to you whether or not you accept that answer.

Of course it's about government. Without government, you're a lump of dirt. I can't think of any way to acknowledge it has significance without specific reference to government.

Then I think you're missing something. It isn't about government. It's about country. Two entirely different animals. I realize it may sound like splitting hairs, but 'country' is a concept completely separate from government. At least for me. I may hate my government from time to time, but I will always love my country.

It's very easy to write off negatives as some transient perfidious influence or attempt to hijack some event, but is unsatisfying: The very event exists to serve such interests. And you see the success in these discussions, as [please don't make me look up who posted it] says more-or-less that they take the 4th of July as an encouragement not to think about the sore points of America.

No. As I said, and have said in this very thread, it was about celebrating the birth of my country. That I will happily fight against the oppression and bullshit inherent in the government, but on the 4th of July, I am celebrating what it means to me to be an American. Please don't mis-characterize what I said just because you don't like my country.

It very deliberately is used to erect a big social taboo around criticising and to enforce a notion of groupthink. And I think we've seen time and time again how that can be effective. Getting back to pop-culture, I see people consume the most absurd things - and being encouraged to consume the most absurd things - in the name of appeals to patriotism and so forth.

Because we're all such complete idiots that we all fall for that kind of thing. Every single one of us without exception.

I don't really give a rat's what you find worth celebrating.

Then why are you even bothering asking questions? No, really. If all you want is to say "This, and no exception and you're wrong, period," why bother? Get a blog. I started the thread so that the issue could be discussed. Are you interested in understanding, or just telling me how wrong I am? I'm good either way, I just want to know if I should stop wasting my time.

WednesdayAddams

6th July 2009, 10:24 AM

You bring up soccer and so forth, but I think that's invalid: Soccer serves, at worst, a commercial purpose.

Sorry, meant to address this earlier. I think this statement flies in the face of facts. Football (soccer) serves to stir up nationalism for a LOT of countries. For citations see here (http://uscpublicdiplomacy.com/index.php/newsroom/specialreports_detail/060803_the_world_cup_global_unity_and_nationalism/), here (http://www.harvardir.org/blog/?p=99), here (http://lilt.ilstu.edu/critique/FALL2007DOCS/Alexander_Nelson_pdf.pdf), here (http://www.nationalismproject.org/NewBooks/Comparative.html) and here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/28/britishidentity.deniscampbell1).

Sgt. Max Fightmaster

9th July 2009, 08:05 AM

So then it's possible you're not the most objective of witnesses?

This is like when you disagree with someone's taste in movies or something and they come back with "well, that's just your opinion!" No shit it's my opinion.

What's 'objective' and who can be said to be it in regard to the most powerful country on Earth (not anyone living on Earth, I suppose)? It's like saying 'you have an opinion, ergo your opinion is invalid.'

Not to be generalized. But...tell you what. Talk to Moon Dog about the entire discussion he and I had this morning. I said it then and I'll say it again: My sole reason for getting pissed off was the fact that you both insisted on thread shitting.

The thread was created with the title of a song that poked serious fun at the US, at the end of a film which partially took aim at US militarism. It's a serious stretch to say it was obviously an unironic America-worship thread.

Obviously you do have strong feelings about the US in specific because although Bytes pointed out and you agreed that nationalism isn't restricted to the US, that's where you steered it right back to.

Get the fuck over yourself, please.

Then I think you're missing something. It isn't about government. It's about country. Two entirely different animals. I realize it may sound like splitting hairs, but 'country' is a concept completely separate from government. At least for me. I may hate my government from time to time, but I will always love my country.

This seems to me the kicker and the part you're just not getting: Government defines country. Especially when you're talking about something on the 4th of sodding July, it seems a little curious to straight deny anything to do with government.

The only comparison I can think of here is to some sort of Catholic celebration or ceremony and claiming that it celebrates the religion but not the church, which would be an absurdity for the reason that Catholicism is defined by the church. Which is not a perfect analogy, I'll concede, but I hope it gets past the blinkers. I don't know what it means to love a country, but I've loved a person and I know damn well I'd've follow them barefoot into hell. If you called them a cunt, even if they were a cunt, I'd blow up.

Imagine we start up another... I don't know, a new Inquisition or something. And time comes and some guy trots off to some ceremony/celebration/whatever. Now I think it's pretty fucked up and I say something. He replies "it has nothing to do with the church and we're just celebrating the good bits of our religion." I think I'm well within reason to call that a pretty hollow justification, especially if this ceremony commemorates some defining moment in the church's establishment. And this is exactly how I'm taking your claim.

Sorry, meant to address this earlier. I think this statement flies in the face of facts. Football (soccer) serves to stir up nationalism for a LOT of countries. For citations see here (http://uscpublicdiplomacy.com/index.php/newsroom/specialreports_detail/060803_the_world_cup_global_unity_and_nationalism/), here (http://www.harvardir.org/blog/?p=99), here (http://lilt.ilstu.edu/critique/FALL2007DOCS/Alexander_Nelson_pdf.pdf), here (http://www.nationalismproject.org/NewBooks/Comparative.html) and here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/28/britishidentity.deniscampbell1).

This is why we need :smug:

I'm not sure a). why you assume I don't know this and b). what point you seem to think it serves. Save :smug:, of course.

WednesdayAddams

9th July 2009, 08:40 AM

This is like when you disagree with someone's taste in movies or something and they come back with "well, that's just your opinion!" No shit it's my opinion.

What's 'objective' and who can be said to be it in regard to the most powerful country on Earth (not anyone living on Earth, I suppose)? It's like saying 'you have an opinion, ergo your opinion is invalid.'

Maybe you thought I was being snarky. I wasn't. I was hoping you'd recognize that your opinion may be jaded by certain events that clouded your judgment somewhat. Not a slam, just pointing out that while you're entitled to your opinion, it isn't necessarily an entirely accurate one.

The thread was created with the title of a song that poked serious fun at the US, at the end of a film which partially took aim at US militarism. It's a serious stretch to say it was obviously an unironic America-worship thread.

Really? News to me. Are we talking about the GBB thread or the Pit thread? I didn't participate in one, and the other I was just happy to have you gone from. As I said to Moon Dog, I don't care what you say about my country so long as you don't do it all over our birthday celebration. If you hate the place that much, have fun frothing about it. But not in that thread, thanks.

Get the fuck over yourself, please.

Dude, I'm not even under myself. I think you're taking this way more seriously than I am.

This seems to me the kicker and the part you're just not getting: Government defines country. Especially when you're talking about something on the 4th of sodding July, it seems a little curious to straight deny anything to do with government.

*shrug* Again, difference of opinion. To me, since our government is changeable, it does not define country. But I thought I explained that, and I'm not going to beat my head against a brick wall disagreeing with you. However, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

This is why we need :smug:

I'm not sure a). why you assume I don't know this and b). what point you seem to think it serves. Save :smug:, of course.

Um. Because you said back up there that:

You bring up soccer and so forth, but I think that's invalid

I wasn't being smug, I was disagreeing. As has been pointed out in this thread, nationalism is not confined to the U.S., even if your hardon for the US military complex won't allow you to see that. And nationalism, IMO, is worse than the commercialism of a world wide sport.

Fish

9th July 2009, 11:13 AM

sailor

9th July 2009, 01:33 PM

I think the point here is that when Americans do it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fourth_of_July_fireworks_behind_the_Washingto n_Monument,_1986.jpg), it's bad, but when Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lotto_Skyworks_Applecross.jpg) does it, it's not worth mentioning.Well, I can only speak for myself but I see a *huge* difference (maybe because I have never been to Australia).

America is different from Australia. America has a *huge* military budget and is extremely aggresive in its foreign policy. Australia, on the other hand, has a tiny military budget compared to America and does not have a history of starting wars, meddling in other countries, etc.

So I have no complaint against fireworks but I might have complaints when the fireworks celebrate things I do not like and I might support fireworks which celebrate things I like.

American nationalism and militarism is something I do not like.

WednesdayAddams

9th July 2009, 02:20 PM

Again; I'm not understanding. And no one has responded to any requests for clarification. How are fireworks displays done at the fairgrounds by private companies for people who aren't required to show up proof of indoctrination and support of a militantly aggressive foreign policy? Other than by those who choose to view it that way?

4th of July means this: the anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. The day we declared our freedom from an oppressive government. No more, no less. I can understand that others from different countries may perceive it as otherwise, but it really does not mean anything else.

There seems to be a rather odd opinion floating about that when it comes to our foreign policy, Americans are either a) gun totin' knuckle dragging ditto heads marching in lockstep behind our warhawk leaders or b) hopelessly deluded fools who are unaware of how we've oppressed and bullied our way to the top of the pack and just as dangerous and pathetic as the first group. My question is: why am I not allowed to be as offended at these stereotypes as anyone else from any other country is about stereotypes about theirs? It's a big country. Full of people from all over the world. They all bring different perspectives and attitudes. Opinions on how we treat other nations are as varied as cultures represented in our society.

I know that it's all too easy to view a country we dislike in broad general (and unflattering) terms. But to make the kind of comparisons made in this thread about fireworks and backyard barbecues is like rushing into a fertility clinic and telling the patients that what they don't understand about the treatments they're undergoing are all part of a big eugenics experiment and they're just too stoopid to see it.

sailor

9th July 2009, 02:58 PM

You may say it means no more but the fact is that you are going along with celebrations which on TV and everywhere are about nationalism and militarism, even if you do not want to recognise it.

Yes, I could go along a white pride parade with a swastika and claim it is nothing more than an eastern symbol of spirituality and we are just celebrating the good things of the white race without supporting racism, etc. How far do you think that argument would take me? And, if I really did not see the implications of what I was doing how naive would you say I was?

If you do not see the implications of all America's nationalistic celebrations I think you are somewhat naive.

WednesdayAddams

9th July 2009, 03:48 PM

I don't see it because you haven't really drawn the correlation between A & B. Could you please explain how you get there from where I start (celebrating my country's birthday)?

And again, I think it's rather offensive to compare a country celebrating its independence to a movement that celebrates the attempted extinction of an entire race of people. Why does your dislike of my government's policies translate to the necessity of my never celebrating what I love about my country?

sailor

9th July 2009, 04:06 PM

So I take iy you really believe white supremacists are only about celebrating the white race and have no other motives? Would you say that even though some may be genuinely thinking that way there is just no way to separate them from supporting tho9se whoi arte racists?

You can say whatever you want. The fact is that these celebrations are all about supporting the military, the troops, the war, etc. and you can say you have nothing to do with that but you and millions of others who say the same conveniently celebrate with others who are openly militaristic and your celebrtation and silence on thise issues lends them support whether you like it or not. If you do not understand it then I cannot explain it better.

Now I will go and celebrate all good things about Hitler and I am sure no one will have any objection. Let us put the bad things aside and celebrate his moustache.

WednesdayAddams

9th July 2009, 04:44 PM

But you aren't stating fact, you're stating your opinion. You're projecting your perception onto the motives of millions of people. How is that valid?

Once again. Please explain the correlation, and how you get from "I celebrate my country's independence on the 4th of July" to being the same as supporting my country's military aggression. I see how YOU feel about it. But you are ascribing motivations that don't exist because of policies you don't like by my government.

Please tell me, with citations if possible, how the 4th of July celebrates military aggression. And no, your comparison to Nazis is not valid.

KidVermicious

9th July 2009, 05:08 PM

Sailor, you're not coming anywhere near proving what you think you're proving. I don't think anybody is interested in debating with you whether or not US foreign policy has been misguided and dangerous, that's a no brainer. But barbeque and beer in my back yard is no more supportive of that on the 4th than on any other day I might choose to have some friends over.

sailor

9th July 2009, 05:53 PM

Yes, I am repeating myself and you are repeating yourselves. And those who say they display the Confederate Flag only because they are proud of their (good) southern heritage and it has nothing to do with the bad things are also repeating themselves. And except for a few very naive people and those who want to hide their unconfessed support for racism nobody believes it.

You can say you are just having a barbacue and that is fine and well but then you say and we all know that it is about celebrating America. And that would also be fine and well except that the whole nation is celebrating the same thing in very nationalistic terms and, again, whether you realise it or not, whether you like it or not, you are celebrating nationalism. A nationalism which is having very negative consequences. Maybe you do not see it but I see it and the rest of the world sees it.

Just like nationalism in Germany in the 1930s was not only about killing Jews, about which most Germans did not know what was being done, but by celebrating German superiority in very general ways they were enabling and supporting German aggresiveness. And anyone who does not see this link is just blind.

Anyone who does not see the link between American backyard celebrations on these holidays, with American military celebrations on the same day, with military contractors supporting and endorsing these celebrations and mentioning the "heroes" who "defend" the freedom of America, etc. well, I don't know what to say because to me it is clear as the middle of the day.

And most of the rest of the world does not have or need this degree of nationalism or militarism and it is reflected in the way they celebrate their holidays.

WednesdayAddams

9th July 2009, 06:04 PM

....

Maybe you're having difficulty understanding my request? Timeline. Just tell me when 4th of July stopped being about celebrating America's independence and turned into what you see it as. I'm not denying you see it that way. I totally get that. You haven't produced any of what we like to call evidence.

I'm sorry. "It is what it is because I say it is and everyone sees it but you, you're just blind and won't see it because you don't want to." is not evidence. Try to look past your ideology long enough to recognize that you're applying some very inappropriate analogies to something that, at the base of it, is not what you want it to be.

KidVermicious

9th July 2009, 06:18 PM

Well, ok. I don't agree with you, and I don't believe the rest of the world agrees with you. Where you see nationalism, I see a bunch of freaking out over nothing, and your godwinization of the issue isn't helping your cause.

Until you can articulate exactly why it's wrong to celebrate the US Independance Day, beyond "the germans did it", you're not going to win anybody over.

Martini Enfield

9th July 2009, 07:08 PM

Most (all?) countries have a National Day, and rightly so. As has been pointed out, there's a lot of Political Baggage attached to those National Days in many places- America's is viewed as a "America: Kicking Ass Since 1776!", Canada's apparently involves the Francophone populuation crying "Aide, aide, Je m'étant opprimé", Australia's has- in some areas- developed an unpleasant undertone of "Love it or get the fuck out", New Zealand's involves a lot of unpleasantess about the Treaty of Waitangi and people on both sides insisting it's dividing the country... the list goes on.

I'm sure there are people in Switzerland who find something controversial about Swiss National Day, too...

sailor

9th July 2009, 07:36 PM

What evidence? The TV ads for Boeing, Rockwell, etc. with plenty of American flags and inspiring phrases about defending freedom, America, etc? The military bands playing military music? The constant mention of those who "defend our freedoms"?

I mean, come on, I am not stupid. What do cars or beer have to do with sexy women? And yet advertisers know what sells. Not only the 4th of July but Memorial day and other National celebrations are designed to maintain a nationalistic feeling which supports ... nationalism. If you do not see that these are nationalistic celebrations I do not know what to say.

And you just dismiss all the other examples I give because only in America celebrating the National day is totally unlinked to any kind of nationalism. But if I give examples of other nationalistic cultures you dismiss them because they are bad and America is good.

Well, I do not see it that way. For me nationalism is bad everywhere and America has way too much. And a greta part of the problem is that many Americans do not realise it. As is obvious in this thread. They think American non-nationalism and American aggressiveness are just coincidental. I do not think so.

KidVermicious

9th July 2009, 07:39 PM

The fact that we disagree with you proves that you're right?

Got it. Thanks.

Defenestrator

9th July 2009, 09:48 PM

Then I think you're missing something. It isn't about government. It's about country. Two entirely different animals. I realize it may sound like splitting hairs, but 'country' is a concept completely separate from government. At least for me. I may hate my government from time to time, but I will always love my country.

I think this bears repeating. It's not about the government. It's about the people, the country, the culture of a place. I don't see how you can conflate the two. Obviously they influence each other, but just because I like my country doesn't mean I am supporting the distasteful (to put it lightly) actions of my government.

For the record, I did not do anything to celebrate 4th of July, but comparing celebrating the 4th to being a Nazi or white supremacist is a bit much. I think there are some people who take it too far (a minority) and become nationalistic and think America can do no wrong, but it is not a majority. Most people don't care, they just want an excuse to barbecue and watch fireworks.

Pamplemousse!

10th July 2009, 04:54 AM

I'm sure there are people in Switzerland who find something controversial about Swiss National Day, too...Oh, c'mon, that is TOTALLY a tool of the warmongers! Anyone who can't see what Swiss National Day really stands for is just fooling themselves.

Do you really think they just use it as an excuse to eat chocolate and blow flugelhorns* with their neighbours?

Just admit right now, Martini Enfield, that you know exactly what Swiss National Day is about! Don't pretend you haven't seen those little multi-purpose knives those slimy, war-crazed Swiss bastards make! :verymad:

* Item 2,457 in Things That Sound Sexy But Aren't: blowing your neighbour's flugelhorn

WednesdayAddams

10th July 2009, 05:08 AM

I mean, come on, I am not stupid. What do cars or beer have to do with sexy women? And yet advertisers know what sells. Not only the 4th of July but Memorial day and other National celebrations are designed to maintain a nationalistic feeling which supports ... nationalism. If you do not see that these are nationalistic celebrations I do not know what to say.

Veteran's Day is celebrated by countries other than the US. It started off as Armistice Day* and morphed to Remembrance Day (I think it is still called that in other countries) and is a very solemn holiday honoring all the fallen soldiers of WWI. Yes, that is a military holiday recognizing the sacrifice all those men and women made for our country (and others). Considering we got to that war late, it's hard to see it as a "war of US aggression" in the same way the Iraq war is viewed. Memorial Day was named after the Civil War ended. It has nothing to do with celebrating our military so much as a reminder of what happens when our divisions threaten to tear us apart. Again, I can see why it's viewed as 'nationalistic' by someone who doesn't really understand the history behind those holidays, but it isn't about celebrating the military.

And you just dismiss all the other examples I give because only in America celebrating the National day is totally unlinked to any kind of nationalism. But if I give examples of other nationalistic cultures you dismiss them because they are bad and America is good.

No, I dismissed them because they're all anecdotal and confirmation bias. What your dad, mates and you personally have seen of Americans does not do anything but reinforce an opinion you already had. It's easy to see what you want if you're looking for it. Prime example: can you show me one place in this thread where I said "America is good" ?

I'm not refusing to look at evidence. I've requested it. You expect me to accept your accusations just on your word? It doesn't work that way. I even threw you a soft ball. When (in your opinion) did July 4th stop being about celebrating a country's independence and turn into nationalism? That doesn't even require a citation, just an opinion.

Well, I do not see it that way. For me nationalism is bad everywhere and America has way too much. And a greta part of the problem is that many Americans do not realise it. As is obvious in this thread. They think American non-nationalism and American aggressiveness are just coincidental. I do not think so.

Yes, but you seem to fall into the same trap a lot of my countrymen also fall into. We tend to think in a free society that just because we're all equal in the eyes of the law, that must somehow mean all our opinions are equally valid. They aren't, of course. Some opinions are more valid than others. I'm happy to view yours as valid if you can produce something other than "because I say so." Until then, all you're producing is preconceived prejudice.

*Cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day):Armistice/Remembrance Day was enacted by the British king, George V. It's celebrated not only by the US and England, but also France, Germany, Italy Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, & Ireland.