When did we lose personal responsibility?

[Zack Lee Wright]

Serious question, when? Lawsuits over your own stupid fault trip and fall on a sidewalk they should have told you it was bumpy WTF you have eyes use them! Walking through the WalMart parking lot in the middle of winter, slip on some ice, sue Walmart WTF? Have consensual sex, get pregnant and expect insurance to abort the fetus WTF? Smoke cigarettes, get cancer, sue WTF?

Then you have people blaming everything but themselves for everything from the inability to stop slamming down fatty foods and blaming it on metabolism to not being able to hold a job and blaming it on some mental health problem. Always have exceptions to everything, but not the majority that make those claims.

Full disclosure, I smoke and will likely die of cancer, Phillip Morris didn't force me to smoke. I also do not talk to one of my close relatives because he claims his child has some problem and collects SSI for him. When everyone that has spent anytime with the boy knows he is just a spoiled brat who doesn't listen because he doesn't have to. And it pisses me off.

[Baldwin]

What about corporate responsibility? Cigarette companies engaged in a decades-long conspiracy to lie about what they knew was a lethal product. Why the hell shouldn't they be sued?

[Zack Lee Wright]

What about corporate responsibility? Cigarette companies engaged in a decades-long conspiracy to lie about what they knew was a lethal product. Why the hell shouldn't they be sued?


If cavemen knew enough to make the fire at the exit of the cave because smoke in lungs bad, I can safely assume anyone with two brain cells to rub together would know this as well.

[Zack Lee Wright]

Baldwin if I may, what about fast food? Point me to the line were it stops being the "corporate devils made me smoke/eat/sniff/spill/look/see the object" and not your own damn fault?

[sailor]

I have also thought about this. If you check neither Bush nor any other senior officials of his administration have accepted any responsibility for the disaster that was their administration. With regards to Iraq the explanation kept changing and blaming bad intelligence etc but no one has accepted any responsibility for any of the mess.

I think it may have started with Reagan's "mistakes were made".

[Islander]

One of my personal faves: the bartender, or the host of the party, is to blame if you get drunk on their property. Another WTF?

[Zack Lee Wright]

I have also thought about this. If you check neither Bush nor any other senior officials of his administration have accepted any responsibility for the disaster that was their administration. With regards to Iraq the explanation kept changing and blaming bad intelligence etc but no one has accepted any responsibility for any of the mess.

I think it may have started with Reagan's "mistakes were made".


No it was before Bush, and even before Reagan. It is a society issue not a political one. My personal belief is that law schools churned out more lawyers then problems. So problems became manufactured so those lawyers had something to make money from. But that is probably not true.


I do find it amusing though that not only you, but others here assume I am some right wing fundie or some shit. When in fact I am to far left for any republican to like me and to far right for any left wing fundie to like me. I have supported, both monetary and time to local pride campaigns. I donate monthly to Planned Parenthood (though not for the last few months due to being unemployed) Stronger separation between church and the government.
Though I am about personal responsibility. Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country style. Limited government, state rights, immigration control. So that makes me an independent, someone who thinks society as a whole can decide how to help those that need it not more government taxation.

[Uthrecht]

I would say that personal responsibility extends not only to the folks that choose to smoke, but the folks that choose to manufacture, sell and advertise the product. Same goes for gambling. Hell, it extends to someone that helps hook up a married man with a gal at a party during a convention.

There is responsibility for beging the one DOING the act. There is also responsibility for helping to ENABLE the act. This does not reduce the amount of responsibility that the person doing it has. Just because big bad corporate marketer decides to put out signs for Marlboro doesn't mean that I'm free to go ahead and smoke. But because each of those smokers is a thinking person doesn't absolve them.

[sailor]

Society as a whole decides how to help those that need it by voting for those programs they believe will work. That is exactly the role of the political process.

[Zack Lee Wright]

I would say that personal responsibility extends not only to the folks that choose to smoke, but the folks that choose to manufacture, sell and advertise the product. Same goes for gambling. Hell, it extends to someone that helps hook up a married man with a gal at a party during a convention.

There is responsibility for beging the one DOING the act. There is also responsibility for helping to ENABLE the act. This does not reduce the amount of responsibility that the person doing it has. Just because big bad corporate marketer decides to put out signs for Marlboro doesn't mean that I'm free to go ahead and smoke. But because each of those smokers is a thinking person doesn't absolve them.


And I agree, but I have a problem with pushing the blame on the company. every. fucking. time. Maybe Philip Morris should sue the tobacco growers since they grew it! Deception does make it murky but smoke in lungs = bad that is simple and not disputable. The only agreement you will get from me is that when they purposely made it more addictive they deserve some responsibility but not millions per dead/dying smoker.

Asbestos lawsuits are another huge problem, don't believe me, ask around. Talk about a mountain from a molehill. Lawyers once again, once they run outta money from any company even remotely related to asbestos they will move on to fast food.

[Zack Lee Wright]

Society as a whole decides how to help those that need it by voting for those programs they believe will work. That is exactly the role of the political process.

So you agree with the national referendum for major bills? I am glad we found something to agree on!

[sailor]

So you agree with the national referendum for major bills? I am glad we found something to agree on! I agree with representative democracy as implemented in western countries. Whether a national referendum should be required on "major" bills is something open for discussion and the first thing to discuss is the definition of "major".

In my view it is very clear that health care reform is not as major as invading a country which has done nothing to America so I would have favored a referendum on that before I favored a referendum on health care. In any case it is clear that the people can be easily manipulated and referendums can have any result those who organise them want. Hold a referendum in Palestine or Syria or Iran or Iraq about killing a few Americans and see what results you get. Democracy is way overrated.

[sailor]

And I agree, but I have a problem with pushing the blame on the company. every. fucking. time. Maybe Philip Morris should sue the tobacco growers since they grew it! Deception does make it murky but smoke in lungs = bad that is simple and not disputable. The only agreement you will get from me is that when they purposely made it more addictive they deserve some responsibility but not millions per dead/dying smoker. They are not being sued because tobacco is bad but because they had evidence which showed it was bad and they lied about it. As someone has asked, whatever happened to bearing responsibility for your own actions?

[Sybarite]

My personal take on this is that we in North America have have created this idea of no personal responsibility by developing a system of rights with no corresponding responsibilities. You can't have one without the other.

[WednesdayAddams]

No it was before Bush, and even before Reagan. It is a society issue not a political one. My personal belief is that law schools churned out more lawyers then problems. So problems became manufactured so those lawyers had something to make money from. But that is probably not true.

It began long before any of that. Hell, it began before this country even existed.

Part of the problem we have is that people insist that there once was a shining time that was better and people were more polite, more honest, more honorable and everyone followed the rules. There was no such time. Not in this country or any other. People are bastards. Bastard covered bastards with bastard filling. Always have been, always will be. The 50's were full of racial and sexual tension that exploded in the 60's. Each decade before and after that had equal social issues.

As for corporations being the benevolent force that saves this country: GTFO with that Ayn Rand masturbatory crap. The only reason the industrial revolution was so successful was because there was no such thing as OSHA or child labor laws and they exploited the fuck out of poor people.

[Veb]

My personal take on this is that we in North America have have created this idea of no personal responsibility by developing a system of rights with no corresponding responsibilities. You can't have one without the other.
I think you nailed the biggest part of it, feather. A pernicious two-sided sword has also taken its toll, IMO, specifically a cult of victimhood that insists that somebody has to be at fault for anything that goes wrong or someone doesn't like. There's a widespread blindness to the fact that sometimes shit just happens. This is probably really a subset of the lack of personal responsibility you cite but I'm badly fed up with the automatic finger-pointing and blame game that's so pervasive.

This is a purely American aspect but the right was limited to the pursuit of happiness, not a promise that happiness was owed to anyone, handed over on a silver platter. If you want something, you're guaranteed the right to work toward your goal. It doesn't mean somebody else is to blame for the perceived lack and therefore is obligated to meekly hand over the goods, make it all better, whatever.

The passivity of it all bugs the hell out of me. Most often when somebody complains about something my initial reaction is, "Okay, that's a start. Now...what are you doing about it?" It extends from the most mundane everyday things all the way through big things like politics, the economy, the whole shebang.

[Scruff]

I think the rot started when people realised you could sue someone for your hurt feelings/victimhooditude and there was almost no downside. If you won (or if the company/target settled before going to court), you made mad money. If you lost, you were out either nothing or a very small amount.

My Sister in Law (an example anecdote) is somewhat obese. When the Fenn-Phen class action suit was announced, she was trying to get some of the tablets so she could join in. Her line was that it was better than the lottery.

Now one anecdotal data point does not make a trend, but I think that we have built a society where many people realise that they can get rich by being a victim. Plus they get to be on TV or in the papers, and have a certain amount of mini-celebrity just for being stupid. You can't lose.

[Zombies!]

I'd just like to know what the objection to asbestos lawsuits is?

[Zack Lee Wright]

I'd just like to know what the objection to asbestos lawsuits is?


Here is some info


But some go further, questioning the legitimacy of the claims in the first place. They insist the plaintiff rolls are padded by untold thousands of people who have no real clinical evidence of exposure to asbestos.
"The majority of evidence is bogus," said Lester Brickman, a law professor and asbestos expert at Yeshiva University's Benjamin Cardozo Law School.
"It's a scam. It's the biggest scam in the history of the universe. There's nothing bigger, never was."
Brickman's opinion is supported in part by a recent study in the professional journal Academic Radiology in which researchers at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore asked six independent reviewers to re-examine 492 X-rays submitted by plaintiff lawyers to support their clients' claims of lung scarring. The initial X-ray readers had reported lung abnormalities in 95.9 percent of the films. The independent reviewers found them in 4.5 percent.
" 80-90% of asbestos claimants have no asbestos-related illness recognized by medical science." Asbestos litigation has so far bankrupted over 70 corporations and cost $70 billion; studies show that companies bankrupted by asbestos have slashed an estimated 60,000 jobs, failed to create 128,000 new jobs, and foregone an estimated $10 billion in investment. This damage is expected to escalate. Experts predict that total claims could reach 1.3 million to 3.1 million. If current estimates of the eventual payout prove accurate, the final price tag of asbestos litigation could be $200 billion to $275 billion, with an additional $33 billion in foregone investment and 423,000 jobs not created. The American Bar Association states that a growing number of claimants do not, and may never, suffer from asbestos illness. Because of the fear of a running statute of limitations, many people file claims who are not presently ill, but have had X-rays that show changes 'consistent with' asbestos disease.Because of the legal doctrine of joint and several liability, companies that survive the asbestos crisis could be ordered to pay the share of companies who might be more responsible for damage but are no longer around or have been absolved of legal responsibility through bankruptcy.
"Is a distributor as culpable as (the asbestos manufacturers)?" Kazan said. "Not in a religious or moral sense, but legally they are. Then the distributors disappear. So you go after installers and applicators. Then come the retail hardware stores."
http://www.pointoflaw.com/asbestos/overview.php

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/clp03-10-04.htm

http://www.mesotheliomaweb.org/apr200924a.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/nj/taylor2002-10-01.htm

http://www.mesothel.com/asbestos-cancer/lawsuits/chronicle.htm

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG162/

[Joey P]

One of my personal faves: the bartender, or the host of the party, is to blame if you get drunk on their property. Another WTF?

I'll see that, and raise you...Many years ago a guy bought some beer, brought said beer to a party where a minor drank it, became drunk, smashed her car and died. The parents sued the store where the beer was purchased*, so now, at that store, if you look kinda college aged they make you sign a book saying you won't give the beer to a minor**

*At that point, why don't they sue Miller.

**Not interested in a debate over that, just stating the facts.



Also, regarding the OP, at my store a person tripped over her own damn feet, they even came out and took pictures showing that the area where she tripped was perfectly smooth and there was nothing to catch your feet on...our insurance company settled for $30,000. And I still have to fight with my employees every single day to keep stuff out of the aisles, heaven forbid a customer would back up and trip over a milk create that an employee set down (in which case, yes, it would be our fault, I'd just be scared of how much we'd be sued for then).

[Sybarite]

You have the right to walk in a store free of unexpected trapdoors into alligator pits. You have the responsibility to look where you're going. :D

[Zombies!]

Thanks for the cites on Asbestos suits Zack.

It seems over in the US it's a bigger business here in Aus. There is current ongoing legal brouhaha regarding asbestos exposure and damage/scarring, but that's a group of ex-employees aimed at an asbestos products manufacturer, so it seems to be a more direct link (and more proof of damage) than some of the suits over in the US.

[Illuminati Primus]

Can I point out that not all asbestos cases are bogus - my uncle died from it.

[Zack Lee Wright]

Can I point out that not all asbestos cases are bogus - my uncle died from it.


For sure and I know it is deadly. What is happening now though and in the links you can read above, is that the legitimate asbestos injured are some of the biggest fighters against these frivolous lawsuits. It dilutes the impact when you have hundreds of thousands of people suing when they show no symptoms while you are on oxygen, or going through chemo therapy.

[sailor]

A legal system gone awry and a society losing personal responsibility might be related but are very different things.

[Eliahna]

The average length of survival after diagnosis of mesothelioma is 10-11 months, so while there are undoubtedly many opportunists looking to cash in, a lot of those law suits will have been filed in the belief that they may run out of time before they ever make it to court.

Locally, we have a rate of mesothelioma seven times that of the national average thanks to the widespread use of asbestos in the construction of our power stations. The lifetime risk of developing mesothelioma among power station workers from the 50s through to the 70s is 11.8%. We get a lot of news coverage of sufferers who died before their case was heard, or soon after it.