To Bern or not to Bern?

[Anacanapuna]

That is the question Iowans must decide today. If they go with Sanders, will they Bern down their chances to beat Trump (who will need only to chant, "Socialism, socialism, socialism!" repeatedly for six months to win re-election?) What say you, O Raffers of Political Acumen?

[Sputnik]

I agree. trump would have no problem defeating Sanders and his AOC socialism. He'll make Republican's rejoice.

[What Exit?]

I'm not so sure, Sanders despite being older than dirt motivates young people. He polls far higher than any other candidate with the under 30 crowd. He keeps polling higher than Trump by a few percent overall.

Biden is not a shoe-in to beat Trump. In fact he has about the same chance in the end. Biden is also ancient but oldsters like him (over 60) and African American support him strongly. It really looks like it will be an old white guy going up against an old white (orangy) asshole. The only strong wildcard left is Bloomberg who is 77. So all 3 would be the oldest person ever elected POTUS.

Warren is fading and the others never really were top contenders.

The DNC wants Biden it looks like and doesn't like Sanders at all.
The big donor class like Biden or Bloomberg but doesn't hate Sanders the way they seem to hate Warren.

Blue states will vote for Bernie or Biden so the socialism won't matter. The Rustbelt will probably respond well to both Biden (took the morning train for years) or Sanders (a union kind of guy).

[AuntiePam]

I caucused for Bernie in 2016 and would do it again if I was caucusing this time (health issues keeping me home).

I do think that wavering Trumpers are more likely to go for Biden than for Bernie. Biden and Trump have some similarities. Both are gaffe-prone, and Biden can be seen (if you want to see it) to have some dirt sticking to him. The dirt might make Trumpers more comfortable.

[Ludovic]

The dirt I agree with - I don't think any truly wavering Trump-Biden voter will be put off by whatever he's done since they've already been proven to overlook it in Trump. (Which isn't to say some people wouldn't be more likely to use supposed corruption as an excuse to vote against Biden, but those same people would use socialism as an excuse to vote against Sanders.)

The gaffes I'm not so sure about. Up until your post made me think about it more I'd have agreed, but now I remember that quite often when they interview a "person-on-the-street" Trump supporter they say "well, he's embarrassing at times, but I still support him". Those particular people might be more likely to support a non-gaffer, all else being equal.

[Metal Years]

Most people didn't think bitch-ass Donny T-Rump could become the president. A lot of people think Bernie can't become president. I think he can. Who knows? I'm very much looking forward to voting for him twice this year!
Auntie Pam, I hate that you can't go and participate in that caucus thing. I hope you feel better soon.

#yearnie4Bernie2020
#fuckDonnyT-Rump2020

[SmartAleq]

Bernie is killing every other candidate on donations--raised well over 30 million dollars with almost 2 million individual donors and over 5 million donations and his donors are about 99% under the limit so can continue to contribute right through the general. His ground game is insane--Bernie volunteers set a goal to make 10 MILLION calls in January and met that goal, along with knocking on 500,000 doors in Iowa--and Bernie buses are already on their way to New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina. He had over a million volunteers signed up well before primary season and it's getting even more hot and heavy.

For example, this shot from an Iowa field office. That's just volunteers. (https://twitter.com/swalker06/status/1224030176591433733)


And one of the revelations in the Parnas tapes was a leaked recording that shows Trump was nervous that HRC would pick Bernie as VP. (https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-said-it-wouldve-been-tougher-win-2016-if-clinton-had-picked-bernie-sanders-vp-1484074)

Trump would mop the floor with Biden, who can't even be trusted to answer questions from reporters any more and has resorted to passing out xerox copies of talking points instead. Biden is as wambly and incoherent as Trump is, but Trump has quite the mockery game going on--it's mostly all he has but if you think Biden could hold up in a slanging match with Cheeto Jesus you're delusional. Bernie, on the other hand, is unflappable and sticks to policy and substance and makes Trump look like the idiotic bully he actually is.

Factor in how weak Biden is to combat the true allegations of his willingness to cut Social Security (that's one of the top Google searches in the next few primary states) and his, shall we say, questionable record on corruption in regards to Hunter and the Ukraine and Trump has a fucking playground to frolic in while Unca Joe flubbers and his eye fills up with blood. Not a good look. Does not inspire confidence.


9xYk-kU8sAM

[PSXer]

better to lose with Bernie than pick another milquetoast D who might win the election but then enact no meaningful change anyway

[Sputnik]

better to lose with Bernie than pick another milquetoast D who might win the election but then enact no meaningful change anyway

Did you happen to touch that poop on your back porch, then put your fingers in your mouth?

[Slate]

When I look at Sanders I see George McGovern and Jeremy Corbyn. I see losing. Biden sucks too. Fuck this election. This is the best we could do?

[AuntiePam]

Elizabeth Warren, at a campaign event in Cedar Rapids, said her Department of Education nominee would have to be approved by a nine-year-old trans child before being considered for the position. She wouldn't appoint anyone who couldn't pass that test.

I won't argue that many nine-year-olds show better judgment than many adults, but a statement like that isn't gonna fly. It comes off as pandering, IMHO.

[Solfy]

I see losing. Biden sucks too. Fuck this election. This is the best we could do?

This.

[JackieLikesVariety]

He polls far higher than any other candidate with the under 30 crowd. He keeps polling higher than Trump by a few percent overall.

yes, and yet so many people "know" he can't win.

of course he can win. he is the ANTI- Trump:
competent, hard working, smart, motivated to help people, knowledgeable, understands how things work, etc.

[Slate]

He polls far higher than any other candidate with the under 30 crowd. He keeps polling higher than Trump by a few percent overall.

yes, and yet so many people "know" he can't win.

of course he can win. he is the ANTI- Trump:
competent, hard working, smart, motivated to help people, knowledgeable, understands how things work, etc.

I happen to agree with much of what Bernie advocates, but I also know he doesn't have any chance of getting his agenda through an American Congress. So I envision a one-term president who is seen as ineffective and consequently flipping the presidency back to the mouth-breathers.

I'll vote for him. Maybe he can win. Dunno. After 2016, I don't dare make a prediction.

[Sputnik]

Remember, if trump loses the a$$hole will probably run again in 2024. A$$holes like him never die, they live forever.

[BJMoose]

No, they don't.


Let me throw out a question: to what extent will Sanders' electability depend on his choice of running mate?

[AuntiePam]

Let me throw out a question: to what extent will Sanders' electability depend on his choice of running mate?

I can see him winning moderates with Amy Klobuchar.

It's too early to predict, but so far, Biden isn't viable in Johnston, a Des Moines suburb. Biden should be viable anywhere in the state, if we can believe the polls.

"Viable" means 15% of the total caucus attendance are caucusing for you.

[etv78]

The Democrats nominating Bernie TERRIFIES ME! I can't believe Democrats are dumb enough to step on our collective dicks!

[What Exit?]

What does the constitution say about caucuses?

It doesn't. And checking my own notes, they are silly. To be fair Primaries are not covered either. In fact they really only started in the early 1900s. The caucuses are actually closest to the early method. There are actually no provisions in the Constitution for Parties, so nothing about primaries & caucuses.


The Democrats' problems in Iowa are not a good way to start the primaries. If Biden somehow ends up on top, a lot of people are going to cry shenanigans. I hope they resolve this soon. Early vote checking & polls show it will be Sanders or Buttigeig. When the Iowa Caucus people finally get their collecting heads out of their asses who will they declare?

[What Exit?]

No, they don't.


Let me throw out a question: to what extent will Sanders' electability depend on his choice of running mate?

It should be a younger person. Under 60 probably. Kamala Harris, Cory Booker & even Amy Klobuchar (who can hopefully bring Minnesota with her) are solid choices. They all add something to the ticket.

Warren is too old for Sanders and won't add to the ticket. Especially compared to another woman candidate.

A bit of a surprise pick that is being talked about at least would be Stacey Abrams. She is not currently in office though. She almost won the Governorship of Georgia and delivered last year's State of the Union Response.

I would go with Kamala over her though. Kamala would be a strong conciliation move for the moderate part of the party. I would hope would help Bernie with Women & African Americans. He doesn't need help in California, lets face it, California will vote for a bowl of rancid noodles over Trump.

Booker is not as moderate but the DNC likes him. Also doesn't deliver any states as NJ would also vote for those rancid noodles over Trump.

Amy Klobuchar is not a populist, so would be a concession to the middle. She may deliver an actually swing state, this is important.

I just don't see Mayor Pete helping anyone. The rest of the pack add less.


Or Bernie could pick some largely unknown and forgettable person for VP, you know like last time with the Democratic pick.

[SmartAleq]

I'm betting Bernie's VP pick will be Tulsi or Nina Turner. Both WOC, both strong and vocal progressives who'll do well working with him. Whichever one doesn't get VP will likely get Secretary of State. Bernie is not gonna compromise with the DNC over his VP pick because he knows they're gunning for him and would fuck him over if he allowed their hand chosen VP pick because it would basically sign on the dotted line for his quick suicide.

The current fuckery in Iowa is a taste of what's to come--ONLY Buttigieg was pulled into a meeting with the DNC honchos, his campaign partially funded the fucked up app that's the reason there are no official results of the caucus yet and he gave that weird messed up "victory" speech--none of which makes sense unless he truly believed the fix was in. Meanwhile, Bernie's campaign used their own app (which works) to report results and have released their unofficial numbers (https://theintercept.com/2020/02/04/sanders-campaign-release-caucus-numbers-iowa-buttigieg/). They were also texting photos of the hand tabulated vote sheets as they came in as a backup to any expected numbers that didn't jibe with the actual vote sheets from each caucus location. Bernie's campaign had an experienced precinct captain in EVERY caucus location too, something no other campaign bothered to do so I'm inclined to say that Bernie's numbers are solid. On account of having an actual, verifiable paper trail to back them up. Something the DNC magically does not have. Hmmm.

ETA: Forgot to include that Buttigieg was responsible for the venerable De Moines Register poll being spiked (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/us/politics/des-moines-register-polls-iowa-caucus.html) for the first time in over 75 years because ONE polling employee allegedly mispronounced Mayo Pete's name to ONE responder. Yet polls have regularly been treated as gospel that actually did NOT include Bernie as one of the contestants. Yeeeeahhhh...

[SmartAleq]

Regarding that app--company that produced it is called "Shadow Inc" which seems rather telegraphed but whatever.

Recent work history of some of their honchos:

https://i.imgur.com/6Ee2VrQ.jpg

Some more interesting sourced information re Shadow and its ties to Mayo Pete (https://old.reddit.com/r/WayOfTheBern/comments/eynj7h/there_are_conspiracy_theories_and_then_there_are/).

Noam Chomsky's take on the campaign:

https://i.imgur.com/m5Td683.jpg

[Sputnik]

Didn't Bernie just blow 50 million on the Iowa vote? 50 million with nothing to show for it?

[SmartAleq]

No, Bernie has spent 50 million TOTAL on the campaign so far, with about 18 million still on hand. You're thinking of Bloomberg, who's spent 150 million so far on ads for his fantasy campaign and he wasn't even IN the Iowa caucus.

[What Exit?]

Didn't Bernie just blow 50 million on the Iowa vote? 50 million with nothing to show for it?

Did he spend $50m? Should be easy to verify.
How can you say he has nothing to show for it when the results aren't in yet?

Are you Dale420 on the Dope or something?

[Borborygmi]

While it may have been underhanded, on a certain level you have to admire the DNC for anticipating so far in advance that Sanders would be one of the top delegate-getters in Iowa and developing an app to make their Iowa affiliate shit all over itself to serve as a distraction. Possibly the slickest gambit advanced by the Democrats since Dukakis drove that tank or Hart dared reporters to follow him around. It seems not all the 5-dimensional chess players are working for the Republicans.

[SmartAleq]

Right? Shadow Inc got paid something like $200,000 total to develop an app that can't manage to count up a couple hundred thousand bits of data spread over 1700 polling locations. FFS, I'm quite sure there are high school students who've done a better job for free just to keep track of sporting events at their school. It takes talent to fuck up that epically but even MORE talent to insist with a straight face that it was a "mistake."

DNC needs to change their mantra to "Vote Blue, Unless It's The Jew." At least they'd be honest FOR ONCE.

[Sputnik]

Didn't Bernie just blow 50 million on the Iowa vote? 50 million with nothing to show for it?

Did he spend $50m? Should be easy to verify.
How can you say he has nothing to show for it when the results aren't in yet?

Are you Dale420 on the Dope or something?

There's a derp mod online so I can't tell you right now. Wait until he logs off.

[What Exit?]

62% counted in Iowa:

__________Percent Delegate Votes
Pete Buttigieg 26.9% 363 27,030
Bernie Sanders 25.1% 338 28,220
Elizabeth Warren 18.3% 246 22,254
Joe Biden 15.6% 210 14,176
Amy Klobuchar 12.6% 170 13,357

[Anacanapuna]

Faux Snooze is now reporting (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/app-used-in-iowa-democratic-caucus-fiasco-linked-to-former-clinton-campaign)that the people who developed the infamous app are "linked" to Hillary's campaign.

[Slate]

Sanders/Gabbard? I will confidently predict Trump not only winning, but also taking the popular vote. What a disaster ticket.

[JackieLikesVariety]

While it may have been underhanded, on a certain level you have to admire the DNC for anticipating so far in advance that Sanders would be one of the top delegate-getters in Iowa and developing an app to make their Iowa affiliate shit all over itself to serve as a distraction. Possibly the slickest gambit advanced by the Democrats since Dukakis drove that tank or Hart dared reporters to follow him around. It seems not all the 5-dimensional chess players are working for the Republicans.

I don't think I do have to admire the DNC. My parent both voted D all their lives and would be ashamed of what their party has become.

[BJMoose]

Meanwhile, Bernie's campaign used their own app (which works) to report results and have released their unofficial numbers. (https://theintercept.com/2020/02/04/sanders-campaign-release-caucus-numbers-iowa-buttigieg/)

That story notes that Sanders numbers were based on about forty percent of the total precincts. It adds that Buttigieg claimed numbers based on about three-quarters of the precincts showed him ahead.

Any particular reason you skipped those details?


Faux Snooze is now reporting (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/app-used-in-iowa-democratic-caucus-fiasco-linked-to-former-clinton-campaign)that the people who developed the infamous app are "linked" to Hillary's campaign.

Of course they are reporting that; bless their dear little spleens.

[SmartAleq]

Oh, you prefer the cherry picking the DNC did? (https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1224852351078498304)

ETA: Also, more fun re the Shadow app (https://twitter.com/AdrienneRoyer/status/1224796527392108545). My gods, could these people BE any more idiotic?

[etv78]

Sanders/Gabbard? I will confidently predict Trump not only winning, but also taking the popular vote. What a disaster ticket.

If Democrats are stupid enough to run that ticket (and they certainly are), I predict a 48 state curbstomping.

[Jaglavak]

better to lose with Bernie than pick another milquetoast D who might win the election but then enact no meaningful change anyway

Dude. Anybody but Trump.

[Sputnik]

Many people voted trump in 2016 because they couldn't stand Hillary. This year they can't stand trump but the thought of voting for an old white socialist is even a worse option for them. Sanders guaranties another 4 years of the loin muppet's rule.
We need someone closer to the center to pull in those folks. Buttigieg/Harris might be the winning ticket.

[etv78]

Sputnik: the voter we need to court WILL NOT vote for a "queer" AND a black woman! Anyone who doesn't see that isn't paying attention!

[Borborygmi]

I looked down, mildly confused until I realized I was looking at a buttigieg.

[AuntiePam]

Sputnik: the voter we need to court WILL NOT vote for a "queer" AND a black woman! Anyone who doesn't see that isn't paying attention!

Video on my FB feed this a.m. of an Iowa Democrat who caucused for Pete and then she found out he was gay. She was asking the precinct chair how she could change her vote. (There's a rule that once your candidate is viable, you can't change your vote.)

The precinct chair attempted to explain that homosexuals are humans too, but this Iowa Democrat wasn't having it. "It's in the Bible! Men can't marry men!"

My daughter (a staunch Democrat) also didn't know Pete was gay. She must have finally heard something though, because she texted me this morning to ask.

I didn't believe that people wouldn't know, but I don't think it's come up in the debates, Pete's ads don't mention it, and I haven't seen it mentioned on FOX or OAN.

[SmartAleq]

The best takeaway from the Iowa caucus is the stake through the heart of Biden's "electability." If he can't reach viability in an old, conservative, white state then he's pretty much dead in the water.

[Glazer]

Why does the Democratic Party even hold Primaries? It's obvious that letting people vote on who they want to be their Candidate only irritates them.

[SmartAleq]

Pure gatekeeping, just like closed primaries and the remarkable resistance to ranked choice voting. Gotta keep the sheep corralled and only voting for those the bosses want in charge don'tcha know. It's why there are superdelegates and the electoral college, to stop hoi polloi from actually controlling the government.

[mjmlabs]

Disclosure/background: After a lifetime of registering "Unaffiliated" (to avoid incessant fundraising importunations) and voting Dem/Working Families* religiously, I changed my registration to "Dem" in 2015 just so that I could vote for Bernie in the Dem primary. Having said that ...

I really hope Bernie isn't the nominee. The oppo file the RNC has on him is insane, and I can't think of anyone the Charlatan-in-Chief would rather smear in the general campaign. As the editor of The Progressive Populist (http://www.populist.com/) recently opined (full editorial, well worth reading here (http://www.populist.com/26.03.edit.html)):

While Trump and the Republicans will engage in character assassination against whoever ends up with the nomination, they’re undoubtedly eager to target Sanders, who got comparatively gentle treatment in 2016 from the media and Hillary Clinton’s campaign. Geoffrey Kabaservice, a center-right activist, wrote in The Guardian Jan. 16 (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/16/bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-donald-trump) that he got a glimpse of the Republican opposition research book on Sanders, “which was so massive it had to be transported on a cart.” Newsweek reporter Kurt Eichenwald, who got to see some of its contents, declared in 2016 that “it was brutal. The Republicans would have torn [Sanders] apart.”

According to Eichenwald, the book includes damning material such as the fact that Sanders was on unemployment until his mid-30s, that he co-sponsored a bill to ship Vermont’s nuclear waste to Texas where it would be dumped in a poor Hispanic community, that he honeymooned in the Soviet Union, and that he appeared at a 1985 rally in Nicaragua at which Sandinista supporters chanted “Here, there, everywhere / the Yankee will die,’’ while President Daniel Ortega condemned “state terrorism” by America. Sanders said, on camera, supporting the Sandinistas was “patriotic.” Then there’s Sanders’ fictional 1972 essay he wrote for an alternative newspaper in Vermont in which he described a woman fantasizing being raped by three men.

Unfair? Distorted? Taken out of context? You can count on it. And Trump will have plenty of money and Fox “News” to smear Sanders 24/7. Instead, let Bernie be our Moses.

I like Bernie. I like his politics, I like his character. He's the reason I'm a registered Democrat. But if he's the nominee this year, we'll have four more years of Grifter-in-Chief without even re-election holding him in check, I believe and fear.

*When a candidate is cross-endorsed by both the Democratic and the Working Families Party, which happens a lot, I vote for them on the WFP line. Helps the WFP qualify to be on the ballot automatically next time.

[SmartAleq]

Peter Daou, a former Clinton strategist and adviser, a person who has seen ALL the oppo there is to be seen on Bernie, rather fervently disagrees (https://twitter.com/peterdaou/status/1222527791314407425) that there's any oppo out there with anything approaching legs. It's all been thrown out in the open and rebutted over and over--which is why HRC only had the tired recycled bullshit she used against Obama first to throw at Bernie.

[mjmlabs]

Well, I hope that turns out to be true, then.

[stormie]

When I look at Sanders I see George McGovern and Jeremy Corbyn. I see losing. Biden sucks too. Fuck this election. This is the best we could do?yeah, agreed. This is why newrichguy jumped in

[mjmlabs]

FWIW, Bloomberg has publicly committed to spending $1B of his pile to defeat Trump, whomever the Dem nominee turns out to be. Can't be too unhappy about that. (Even if he is just running in order to thwart Warren's wealth tax, as some have speculated.)

[Glazer]

There is a deep distrust of the Establishment in this Country. Trump used it to beat the Republican field last time. It almost got Bernie nominated last time. But the Democrats need somebody who is famous outside of politics. Someone with a reputation for telling it like it is. But most of all someone people like and trust. Ladies and Gentlemen I give to you the next President and Vice President of the United States of America...


Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert!!!!!

Stewart Colbert 2020

[SmartAleq]

Uh yeah...Bloomberg backed Republican Senator Pat Toomey (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/26/us/politics/michael-bloomberg-republicans-donations.html) to the tune of almost 12 million dollars, causing him to win his Senate race by two points against a progressive challenger, Kate McGinty, in '16. This gave the Senate a GOP majority, which is why we have Kavanaugh on the SCOTUS. I'm sure that's gonna play well to the "anyone but Trump" crowd, and his fucked over "stop and frisk" and other massively racist policies as mayor of NYC ought to put a stake through the heart of his campaign. The fact that he is virulently anti-weed legalization is just the cherry on the sundae. If he wants to blow a billion dollars on it, though, I'm sure the people he's paying will appreciate the money.

[What Exit?]

There is a deep distrust of the Establishment in this Country. Trump used it to beat the Republican field last time. It almost got Bernie nominated last time. But the Democrats need somebody who is famous outside of politics. Someone with a reputation for telling it like it is. But most of all someone people like and trust. Ladies and Gentlemen I give to you the next President and Vice President of the United States of America...


Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert!!!!!

Stewart Colbert 2020

I would vote for it, but I'm pretty sure Stewart will not go for it.

[SmartAleq]

Bernie raised $25 million in JANUARY (https://twitter.com/adamkelsey/status/1225373570492010497), more than any of Biden/Buttigieg/Warren's '19 QUARTERS. Every time there's a dirty trick, we give Bernie more money. It's a way of channelling the anger of being ratfucked over and over and over again. And that was from 648,000 donors, 219,000 of whom were NEW DONORS.

What was that "electability" thing again?

ETA: The commemorative meme!

https://i.imgur.com/BiftXnr.jpg

[What Exit?]

Biden has been sounding snippy this week. As I don't really like him, I find it funny. If Buttigieg does well in NH, he'll probably be fine financially. But no one wants to support Biden while he is the front runner and a favorite of the Doner Class.

Very Interesting!

[AuntiePam]

My big problem with Biden is that he's behaving like he's entitled -- shades of HRC.

I watched that documentary showing the NY Times editorial board interviewing all the candidates before making their endorsement. Biden was the only one who got up and left the table on his own, before anyone said "Thank you for your time", etc. They weren't done. It came across as condescending, like they should have been grateful to him for legitimizing their effort.

They ended up endorsing Warren and Klobuchar.

Actually, I expected to be more impressed with these people. Some of their questions were kinda dumb.

Oh, and in the elevator leaving the NY Times offices, the elevator operator is an African-American woman, and she tells Joe that she's supporting him. She seems excited to be next to him -- she may have been just as excited if she carried the other candidates -- but anyway, Joe says "Do you want a selfie?", and that came across as noblesse oblige, a bit patronizing. Yes, we know black people like you. Lord knows why!

[SmartAleq]

Hey, wonder what Bloomberg thinks of Bernie--whaddaya know, there's a clip for that (https://twitter.com/organizingpower/status/1225458615735193606).

[AuntiePam]

Hey, wonder what Bloomberg thinks of Bernie--whaddaya know, there's a clip for that (https://twitter.com/organizingpower/status/1225458615735193606).

How far down do we have to scroll for that? I'm not on Twitter so maybe I just don't know where to click.

[SmartAleq]

It's the top of the thread and should actually start autoplaying, if not click on the pic of Bloomberg sitting in a chair.

In other news, "A half-dozen women of color have departed Elizabeth Warren’s Nevada campaign in the run-up to the state’s caucuses with complaints of a toxic work environment in which minorities felt tokenized and senior leadership was at loggerheads (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/06/elizabeth-warren-campaign-nevada-111595)."

So, does that make her NV campaign staff more sexist or racist? I'd say "por que no los dos?" but since they likely don't have anyone on staff who speaks Spanish any more...

[Sputnik]

This is kind of scary...

Republicans: Want to reelect Trump? Vote for Bernie

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/480827-republicans-want-to-reelect-trump-vote-for-bernie

[SmartAleq]

No, it was scary the first time, when Hillary and Podesta thought up the Pied Piper strategy with their galaxy brains and picked Trump as their piper. Now it's just fuckin' funneh because nobody learned the lesson from the last time which is--watch out for what you ask for because you just might get it. Voters, sick of the results of oligarchy, wanted a populist last time and when the oligarchs cheated Bernie out of the nomination they went for Trump, who'd picked up on the mood (better than Hillary did, which tells you ALL you need to know about HER) and made populist noises and it worked. Now let's see how his empty bullshit works against a REAL populist after four years of the absolute hash Trump's made of the economy as it pertains to working class people and minorities.

One of the satellite caucus sites in Iowa was held in a mosque, and it went 100% for Bernie. That's a whole bunch of Muslims voting to elect a Jew. Think about THAT for a minute.

[Jaglavak]

This is getting to be a better snark mine than the snark thread.

[Slate]

This is kind of scary...

Republicans: Want to reelect Trump? Vote for Bernie

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/480827-republicans-want-to-reelect-trump-vote-for-bernie

It wouldn't surprise me to find inaccuracies in that opinion piece, but at the heart of the matter is the price tag. If he doesn't explain how it all adds up, then nominee Bernie is toast. And if he does, honestly, he's toast then too. Meanwhile, Trump will be screaming about skyrocketing taxes and economic doom. Scaring the shit out of whitey* worked once and it can probably work again.

*Some people think that millennials will be different, our saviors. Maybe some will, but guess who won white mellennials in 2016. Yep.

[SmartAleq]

Fortunately, the Congressional Budget Office is required to score all proposed legislation for budgetary requirements. Here, start with the text of the bill (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text). Then the CBO report (PDF link) (https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-05/55150-singlepayer.pdf). Then some (https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/05/04/new-cbo-report-medicare-all-serious-and-positive-contribution) analysis (https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/congressional-budget-office-looks-impact-medicare-all) of the CBO report.

The bottom line is that it will all be paid for the same way the tax cuts for the wealthy, corporate subsidies, Wall Street bailouts and infinite wars are paid for--the question is simply that, if a large amount of our productivity is going to be spent by the federal government, is it a better investment to funnel it to the already obscenely wealthy, to use it to facilitate extractive industries that worsen climate change or to bomb people in other countries or would it be better to spend the money on making the country cleaner, safer, more pleasant and productive for its citizens?

A person would have be be incredibly stupid not to realize that all that money for, say, "defense" comes from somewhere--but it's never challenged and is automatically rubberstamped every goddamned year. Things like bombers that don't really fly or more aircraft carriers because of course we need a gazillion more of the fucking things or making more and better nukes or dropping bombs all over the world. I think it's just as reasonable to take that money, those resources, which belong to ALL OF US and use them to benefit us regular people. If anyone actually thinks that's terribly out of line then no, Bernie's message will not resound for them. I might speculate that it's because all reason is drowned out by the voices in their heads but that's neither here nor there.

We do not have a shortage of resources or money--we have a distribution and allocation problem. Bernie Sanders, and all the other progressives in this country, are fighting to realign the enormous expenditure of our wealth and resources back into making our society a better and more egalitarian place to be. If we fail then the planet is, not to be too dramatic, doomed. Climate change and endless regime change wars will make the planet unfit to live on, things will get shittier and shittier and millions of people will die in unpleasant ways. To argue that it's better that a neoliberal Democratic party be in power because that will slow the rate of mass death by a few years is meaningless. If we don't make major changes, SOON, it won't fucking matter if Trump wins or Biden wins because everyone that you and I and everyone we know cares about will suffer and die. And so it goes.

I'm just not in any mood for trendy cynicism and inculcated received knowledge from oligarchs who've been restructuring every social system we have for decades to suit themselves. They're basically aliens terraforming our planet into whatever hellscape they prefer and people are letting them do it and abetting them at every turn no matter how much it hurts them personally or increases the aggregate misery level of the world. My view is that either people will be smart, wake up and fix shit or they won't. I know which I prefer, but I'm a small being in a large universe. :shrug:

[What Exit?]

...

*Some people think that millennials will be different, our saviors. Maybe some will, but guess who won white mellennials in 2016. Yep.
Can you site this somehow please. PEW Research (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/) doesn't have this breakdown. I know Clinton did worse with youth votes than Obama, but one of Sander's charms as candidate is he does motivate the youth vote. Even with the Hillary drop in Young voters (under 30); they voted 55%-36% for HRC. I expect a higher percentage if Sanders gets the Nom. Actually I think most Dems except maybe Biden or Bloomberg would get a higher percentage.


OK, CNN Exit polls have it (https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls). Trump won the white young vote 47% to 43%. I'm pretty sure that he will not win it this time. Especially is the Dems nominate Sanders.


Current Polls show it might be time for Warren, Klobuchar, Gabbard, Yang & Steyer to start playing nice as they have nearly no chance now and I'm assuming they hope for the VP slot.


Biden still holds the national polls, but Sanders & Buttigieg are doing very well in the early primaries and will probably build some momentum and Bloomberg is a wildcard that is rising quickly but might then drop as quickly. Warren is just dropping.

[Glazer]

Fortunately, the Congressional Budget Office is required to score all proposed legislation for budgetary requirements. Here, start with the text of the bill (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1129/text). Then the CBO report (PDF link) (https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-05/55150-singlepayer.pdf). Then some (https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/05/04/new-cbo-report-medicare-all-serious-and-positive-contribution) analysis (https://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/congressional-budget-office-looks-impact-medicare-all) of the CBO report.

The bottom line is that it will all be paid for the same way the tax cuts for the wealthy, corporate subsidies, Wall Street bailouts and infinite wars are paid for--the question is simply that, if a large amount of our productivity is going to be spent by the federal government, is it a better investment to funnel it to the already obscenely wealthy, to use it to facilitate extractive industries that worsen climate change or to bomb people in other countries or would it be better to spend the money on making the country cleaner, safer, more pleasant and productive for its citizens?

A person would have be be incredibly stupid not to realize that all that money for, say, "defense" comes from somewhere--but it's never challenged and is automatically rubberstamped every goddamned year. Things like bombers that don't really fly or more aircraft carriers because of course we need a gazillion more of the fucking things or making more and better nukes or dropping bombs all over the world. I think it's just as reasonable to take that money, those resources, which belong to ALL OF US and use them to benefit us regular people. If anyone actually thinks that's terribly out of line then no, Bernie's message will not resound for them. I might speculate that it's because all reason is drowned out by the voices in their heads but that's neither here nor there.

We do not have a shortage of resources or money--we have a distribution and allocation problem. Bernie Sanders, and all the other progressives in this country, are fighting to realign the enormous expenditure of our wealth and resources back into making our society a better and more egalitarian place to be. If we fail then the planet is, not to be too dramatic, doomed. Climate change and endless regime change wars will make the planet unfit to live on, things will get shittier and shittier and millions of people will die in unpleasant ways. To argue that it's better that a neoliberal Democratic party be in power because that will slow the rate of mass death by a few years is meaningless. If we don't make major changes, SOON, it won't fucking matter if Trump wins or Biden wins because everyone that you and I and everyone we know cares about will suffer and die. And so it goes.

I'm just not in any mood for trendy cynicism and inculcated received knowledge from oligarchs who've been restructuring every social system we have for decades to suit themselves. They're basically aliens terraforming our planet into whatever hellscape they prefer and people are letting them do it and abetting them at every turn no matter how much it hurts them personally or increases the aggregate misery level of the world. My view is that either people will be smart, wake up and fix shit or they won't. I know which I prefer, but I'm a small being in a large universe. :shrug:

All of that is well and good. But bombing people in other countries. You got to admit, that pretty sweet.

[SmartAleq]

Nope, not a fan of the bombing, sorry. I was in Japan during the height of the Vietnam war and got confronted on the regular with what happens to nice young men who get bombs dropped too near them or bullets through their bodies. Then I spent the next couple decades dating and being friends with guys who were massively fucked up by what happened to them during the war. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not awesome examples of urban renewal. Beirut used to be a gorgeous vacation destination--now, not so much, and same for many other cities in the ME. Some of the guys who make me tacos were refugees from some of our experimental coups in Central America. I'm tired of it all and think there has to be a better way to settle things than endlessly dropping depleted uranium and white phosphorus on people we're feeling miffed about because they have the effrontery to live on top of oil and want a fair market price for it, and maybe not pay for it in dollars. That seems to be a poor reason to blow up schools full of children and hospitals full of sick people.

[etv78]

Exit: I DEFINITELY think Klobuchar is playing the veepstakes. She's a pretty good pick too. She'd have many of the pluses Brown has, plus a few more. The ONLY negative I can think of: she's supposedly not particularly nice to her staff.

[Pencil]

Beirut used to be a gorgeous vacation destination--now, not so much,


Ahem

https://www.rooftopguiden.se/takbarer-i-beirut/Bilder/iris-beirut-1.jpg

https://www.lebanoninapicture.com/Prv/Images/Pages/Page_212743/beirut-waterfront-skyline-beirut-lebanon-djimyc-4-23-2019-8-21-18-pm-l.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/f4/49/f7f4499b2182347b5226d94564b756ea.jpg

[George Kaplin]

Exit: I DEFINITELY think Klobuchar is playing the veepstakes. She's a pretty good pick too. She'd have many of the pluses Brown has, plus a few more. The ONLY negative I can think of: she's supposedly not particularly nice to her staff.

According to this ( https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/us/politics/amy-klobuchar-staff.amp.html) NYT article, she’s a total cunt. She’s a tyrannical bully with a serious anger management problem. That’s why she’d be an electoral liability. She’s not mean in the grandiose Bond villain way that someone like Trump is. She’s mean in a way that’s really easy to understand, and that everyone can relate to. Everyone knows what it’s like to work for a total piece of shit boss, and most people would cut their own throats before voting for a ticket with someone like that on it.

[Jaglavak]

If that's as good as she can hide it, she's not professional enough to be in the white house.

[SmartAleq]

She literally throws things at people and screams when she's in a mood. Yikes. Do not need more toddlers in the WH.

[Sputnik]

Bernie Sanders in 1972: 'I don't mind people calling me a communist'


“I think he’s a communist,” Trump said. “Look, I think of communism when I think of Bernie. You could say socialist, but didn’t he get married in Moscow? That’s wonderful. Moscow’s wonderful.”

Trump was then corrected by Hannity, who explained that Sanders only honeymooned in the Soviet Union in 1988.

Trump is going to seize on this comment and never let it go, thus pushing Bernie even further from the middle. This is too much for the Democrats to bite off and have any hope of winning.

Please Dems, give us at least one normal candidate.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/bernie-sanders-in-1972-i-dont-mind-people-calling-me-a-communist

[AuntiePam]

This is too much for the Democrats to bite off and have any hope of winning.



One could have said the same after "Grab 'em by the pussy", but Trump's people didn't care. Hell, they could see a real pee tape and his people wouldn't care.

I don't think any of it is going to make a difference. Democrats aren't going to jump ship and vote for Trump because Bernie flirted with Communism in the 80's.

[George Kaplin]

Sputnik: the voter we need to court WILL NOT vote for a "queer" AND a black woman! Anyone who doesn't see that isn't paying attention!

On the contrary, go to YouTube and look at the comments on any videos of Mayor Pete on FOX. The ratio of positive to negative comments is about 20 to 1. Centrists and moderate Republicans love the guy. I think a lot of people on the left underestimate how many Trump voters were voting against Hillary, rather than for Trump. These people are desperate for someone articulate and Presidential. The way they respond to Pete is quite remarkable. Here’s an example:

FOX Town Hall (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3sr0RtIfgI&t=15s)

I know this is hardly scientific, but I have to assume most of the people who’ve commented on this video are Republicans, or at least right leaning. The comments are basically a thousand page long Mayor Pete love fest! It seems to me that the people who really hate the guy are all on the progressive left!

[Sputnik]

I don't think any of it is going to make a difference. Democrats aren't going to jump ship and vote for Trump because Bernie flirted with Communism in the 80's.

That's not who we have to reach. We need all those people who really didn't like trump, but hated Hillary so they voted for trump. We need those people to feel that voting for a democrat won't result in the end of the world.

Trump's base won't budge, but his fringe might. We need that fringe.

[Katriona]

She literally throws things at people and screams when she's in a mood. Yikes. Do not need more toddlers in the WH.

It sounds like this might be something Biden is considering. I just got a survey from Act Blue asking if I’d support a Joe/Amy ticket.

I’d have to hold my nose to do so...well, Biden and anyone would be a nose-holder for me.

[etv78]

George: I had always wondered how many Trump votes were anti-HRC, rather than pro-Trump. I just wonder if Pete is too new/inexperienced to make the jump.

To be clear, I WILL crawl over broken glass to vote for the Democratic candidate.

[What Exit?]

There was a lot of anti-Hillary voting. There was also a feeling in the rust-belt that Hillary wasn't concerned with their concerns at all and at least Trump put lip-service to their concerns.

Roughly along these lines, "We know Trump doesn't care about us and probably won't do anything for us but Hillary said drop dead and he is talking about us."

It was enough to cost HRC the Electoral votes she needed. Her campaign strategy was awful. Her VP pick was of no value. To come across as unlikable as Trump was quite the achievement in futility by a nominee.

[Zeener Diode]

To come across as unlikable as Trump was quite the achievement in futility by a nominee.

I'm no Hillary apologist, and she certainly failed in getting her message across to white middle class voters, but she was also subjected to multiple slanderous accusations by Russian disinformation specialists.

[mjmlabs]

To come across as unlikable as Trump was quite the achievement in futility by a nominee.



I'm no Hillary apologist, and she certainly failed in getting her message across to white middle class voters, but she was also subjected to multiple slanderous accusations by Russian disinformation specialists.Also, Comey. Don't forget that he announced that the Feebs were reopening their E-mail-gate investigation 11 (? I forget exactly) days before the election. Helped the "Lock Her Up!" chants raise doubts, presumably.

[Glazer]

Hillary lost any chance at becoming President back when Bill still was. Her Vast Right Wing Conspiracy rhetoric fed the persecution complex of the vast right wing flock.

[SmartAleq]

Not to mention the whole racist "superpredator" thing and her flat declaration that single payer will never, ever happen. She's so out of the loop of what's going on in this country she singlehandedly had to contrive the whole RUSSIARUSSIARUSSIA narrative to cover her own embarrassment at losing to a game show host she set up as her sock puppet opponent. Neoliberal Third Way Dems suck so fucking hard.

[PSXer]

BernieBros made a big fuss about #PetesWineCave but I just heard that in his first 100 days of office Sanders plans to invite every American billionaire to the White House cellar to taste a pipe of amontillado

[George Kaplin]

BernieBros made a big fuss about #PetesWineCave but I just heard that in his first 100 days of office Sanders plans to invite every American billionaire to the White House cellar to taste a pipe of amontillado

Bezos being like “Hmm, I guess he’s finally gotten over that insult I ventured upon him that one time”.

[SmartAleq]

Holy cow, MORNING JOE is feeling the Bern (https://twitter.com/CaseStudyQB/status/1226916863160070145)? I think we're through the looking glass, people. Watch both clips, very illuminating. :astonished:

[What Exit?]

So the 3 most recent national polls (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/) all put Bernie up front, Biden is slipping quick. I'm curious to see if he will try to throw his support to another candidate or just sink into irrelevance without trying to help someone.

I seriously doubt he will throw support to Bernie, but Buttigieg & even Bloomberg are possibilities.

[SmartAleq]

He absolutely will not endorse Bernie and regardless of various fuckery Mayo Cheat doesn't stand a chance since he polls literally at zero with minorities in not a few states. They're holding Bloomberg up as their last chance so that's where Biden will go. They're trying to set up a brokered convention where they can coronate whoever they want--good luck with that, if the DNC pulls that off it'll make Chicago '68 look like the Ascot Derby.

[stormie]

Ahhhh! The primary is coming up and I don't know who to vote for. The Iowa caucus suggests that Dems may not like Warren or Bern enough to vote for them. Inadequate Dem turnout permitted Trump. We cannot do that again.

[What Exit?]

The Socialist/Progressive choices are a tough sell, but in many states I think they'll pull out more young voters. Warren might help energize the women vote more than Hillary did.

When does Illinois have their Primary? Before or after Super Tuesday? New Jersey is so late, we almost never matter.

Biden has strong African American vote but Buttigieg & Bloomberg have less than Sanders. Bloomberg supported stop and frisk and that is a big hit in the African American community.

[What Exit?]

As expected, Sanders is leading NH and Buttgieg is not far behind. Somewhat surprising Amy Klobuchar is around 19.6% & Warren & Biden are both under 10%.


Yang suspended his campaign. Not surprising. I think Warren might be done. This is a really poor showing for a nearby state. I'm hoping Biden loses in South Carolina and bows out. His support is already slipping a lot.

[Mr. Plumbean]

A Sanders victory in the primary will be an utter fucking disaster but perhaps it is a disaster we need, what with the climate change and packed supreme court and people dying of typhus while billionaires cackle.

[Zeener Diode]

Sanders is claiming Russia is boosting his numbers. Earlier, he asked other candidates to join him in supporting the eventual nominee, no matter who wins, to defeat Trump.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. Whichever candidate wins, I'll vote for them, just to boot out the indumbent. So Bernie is a socialist; so what? He's not going to turn America communist overnight. I'll wager his policies will still be awaiting Congressional approval by the end of his first term. Anyway, the focus should be on removing the current GOP majority in Congress so we can get rid of this fucking gridlock.

[Mr. Plumbean]

He isn't claiming so much as admitting. It is a known fact. Russia is intefering with our elections and we have to know that or we're doomed.

I'd vote for a burning bag of dogshit over Trump but the fact that Sanders and his supporters seem determined to alienate and offend any ally in his small coalition is not encouraging.

[stormie]

I don't really have a dog in this fight. Whichever candidate wins, I'll vote for them, just to boot out the indumbent.This. And I don't know who it means
Warren would be a good candidate if she were a guy. We still do not support, as a nation, women candidates
Biden is not wearing well.
The new guy and that mayor person are maybes; would they get the conservative Dems and liberal Reps?
Another damn person said under so-and-such situation he would not vote rather than vote for any candidate other than Bernie. He's still going to get the vote of people who would stand on principle and have a president that causes children to die. Are Berns a larger part of the voting group than middle-of-the-roaders?
A lot of nonBerners did not vote because of a general dislike of Hilary, which does change the general outlook.

[Mr. Plumbean]

We're doomed.

[stormie]

So, who's accepting immigrants? Denmark? Guatemala?

[Mr. Plumbean]

The future sucks everywhere. This is the last chapter.

[What Exit?]

The future sucks everywhere. This is the last chapter.

We're not done yet. Our parents and/or grandparents survived the insanity of WWI & WWII with the depression in between. Our despots* aren't as bad or as entrenched. Climate Change is going to cause a lot of problems and chaos but less than the World Wars or a Nuclear War would have caused. Hey, Morgan Stanley research arm produced a report that called Climate Change the most serious issue of the day and acknowledged their own hand in it. So maybe things are changing.


* OK, Trump is possibly our worst President, but no one rises to the level of Hitler or Stalin or even Tojo. I guess Putin is maybe as bad as Mussolini. With just a little luck Trump will be out of his job shortly. Lord I hope so.

[AuntiePam]

We need to keep reminding people that "socialism" includes things like Medicare and Social Security, anything to take the ammunition out of that word. I see memes daily on the anti-Trump FB pages, and I hope it's helping.

We also need to make sure that our right-thinking friends and relatives are registered to vote. Download voter registration forms for them. Give them stamped addressed envelopes. Make sure they get to the polls, or that they request absentee ballots.

I think we all agree that turnout is the key.

Trump's getting nuttier by the day. It's amazing to me that his supporters don't see the crazy.

[Mr. Plumbean]

If the gamble is on a lot of Americans learning basic facts like that I'm not optimistic

[What Exit?]

If the gamble is on a lot of Americans learning basic facts like that I'm not optimistic

You know last time out, I saw a lot of confidence that Hillary was going to beat Trump but I saw where she could lose enough states to blow it. I think this time around people are giving the Trumpites too much credit. Bernie is going to swing states that Hillary shouldn't have lost.

[Slate]

It's going to be so easy for the right to turn Bernie into the money-gobbling bogeyman: HIGHER TAXES FOR EVERYONE!!! And let's face it, the Sanders agenda doesn't happen by only taxing the shit out of billionaires. It would mean sacrifice and caring about your fellow Americans to reach that dream. Good luck with that in the Disunited (I've Got Mine) States of America.

Man, I hope I'm wrong. It's almost too late to go in any other direction, anyhow. The Cult would be bitter enough to sit it out or swing it to Trump if the geezer isn't anointed.

[SmartAleq]

Bernie does not hold nor demonstrate contempt for any American citizen (aside from a few random billionaires) and people pick up on that. Her Heinous' rampant disdain for the majority of those she proposed to rule over was glaringly on display every time she was forced to interact with any of them in any way. It seems to escape the tools of the elite rulers that contempt and disdain are not likely to foster trust, acceptance or cooperation in those who are the targets of it. Bernie will sit down and listen to anyone, even chowderheads, and he's genuinely concerned about bettering their lives in as many ways and to as great a degree as it's possible for him to essay. I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand Bernie's appeal but Stockholm Syndrome is a real thing in the world so there's that.

[AuntiePam]

Man, I hope I'm wrong. It's almost too late to go in any other direction, anyhow. The Cult would be bitter enough to sit it out or swing it to Trump if the geezer isn't anointed.

Where are they showing up though? I admit that I don't get out much. I see lots of statements from people worrying about Bernie Bros. But I'm not seeing Bernie Bros. Mostly what I see is "anyone but Trump".

Maybe I'm not reading/watching the right places. ??

[What Exit?]

Slate & SmartAleq, either Hillary or Sanders would be far better Presidents than Trump.

The Left leaning, The Trump hating, The Socialists, The Greens (me), need to stop tearing down non-Trump candidates and remember any of them are better than 4 more years of Trump. Warren, Biden, Buttigieg & the rest are all more fit to run the country and would all help reverse the damage Trump has done and hopefully start making some improvements. There are so many areas of improvement. There really isn't one worse than Trump.

AuntiePam, great point, whoever or whatever the "BernieBros"* are, they are not numerous enough to really matter. It is not close to 16% of voters. Some of the chatter is probably Russians or Republican Trolls.

* The term BernieBros should just go away, it is only helpful to getting Trump re-elected.

[Slate]

Slate & SmartAleq, either Hillary or Sanders would be far better Presidents than Trump.


Well hell, of course. I just don't think he can win. Period.

A Sanders presidency would be entertaining as hell. He won't get a single piece of legislation through Congress, but he can at least undo the shithead's odious executive orders and appoint sane, qualified people to the judiciary and elsewhere. And that piece of orange garbage and his crime family will slither back into irrelevance. So that's all good. I'll pull the lever with enthusiasm...and watch this trainwreck make the Corbyn defeat look like a fender bender.

[Sputnik]

I would vote for Sanders over trump, that's just common sense. But I believe he would be as bad a president as trump is, maybe worse.

[AuntiePam]

I would vote for Sanders over trump, that's just common sense. But I believe he would be as bad a president as trump is, maybe worse.

How? What do you think he would do that would make him as bad as/worse than Trump?

[What Exit?]

I would vote for Sanders over trump, that's just common sense. But I believe he would be as bad a president as trump is, maybe worse.

Seriously? How? He won't be encouraging hate, he will be Green, he will be less embarrassing with foreign leaders, he'll be better on education (clearly & easily), probably differently bad for the military, etc.

[Sputnik]

He's way too socialist for me. His comment about needing to nationalize the electrical power industry proves he's intent on transforming our economy from capitalism to socialism. That's why I don't think he can beat the pig lord in November.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Sanders might be ineffective but there's no way he even comes close to Trump.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I am more optimistic after Nevada that people I thought would never vote for a "socialist" are not buying that Sanders is Vladimir Lenin.

[JackieLikesVariety]

I am more optimistic after Nevada that people I thought would never vote for a "socialist" are not buying that Sanders is Vladimir Lenin.

hell, yes.

[AuntiePam]

He's way too socialist for me. His comment about needing to nationalize the electrical power industry proves he's intent on transforming our economy from capitalism to socialism. That's why I don't think he can beat the pig lord in November.

I'd be fine with that. Capitalism hasn't been that much of a success for at least 60% of the population.

People who work shouldn't have to worry about feeding their kids. It's as simple as that.

[JackieLikesVariety]

and people with "health insurance" shouldn't have to worry about going bankrupt from medical bills.

[Sputnik]

This is what scares me about Sanders.

For now, Trump's standing against Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, the Democratic front-runner, mirrors his approval ratings. Sanders holds about a 4-point lead in the average poll out this week. That is far from a dominant advantage and suggests Trump could win the popular vote.

For comparison, Trump is doing better against Sanders now than he was at any point in the 2016 general election polls once the primary season started.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/23/politics/donald-trump-2020-poll-of-the-week/index.html

[SmartAleq]

Yes, because privatization has worked SO WELL at maintaining our national electrical grid, which is basically an embarrassing Third World nightmare. We allowed electrical utilities to be privately owned and left them to keep up the grid and what happened? PG&E burned down half of California because they wouldn't spend a penny of stockholder dividends to maintain and improve power lines to withstand, y'know, WIND and now they're trying to go bankrupt to avoid paying for what they did by not doing. I say fuck those goddamned rentiers--basic services should NEVER be privatized, they are publicly owned resources that should remain firmly in the commons in perpetuity. Socialism is NOT a bad word, it's how civilizations get built and anyone who maintains it's all rugged individualism and bootstraps that Make America Great has a bridge to sell you and is likely a fucking sociopath to boot.

[ellipses]

So....basically the voters in Nevada just told the mainstream media that "you're not the boss of me!" while at the same time telling the DNC "you're not my real dad!" LOL...

[SmartAleq]

So....basically the voters in Nevada just told the mainstream media that "you're not the boss of me!" while at the same time telling the DNC "you're not my real dad!" LOL...

That's so nice it needs to be said twice! :rebo:

Also, this is really good:

pjHn4l1stDU

[Sputnik]

Yes, because privatization has worked SO WELL at maintaining our national electrical grid, which is basically an embarrassing Third World nightmare. We allowed electrical utilities to be privately owned and left them to keep up the grid and what happened? PG&E burned down half of California because they wouldn't spend a penny of stockholder dividends to maintain and improve power lines to withstand, y'know, WIND and now they're trying to go bankrupt to avoid paying for what they did by not doing. I say fuck those goddamned rentiers--basic services should NEVER be privatized, they are publicly owned resources that should remain firmly in the commons in perpetuity. Socialism is NOT a bad word, it's how civilizations get built and anyone who maintains it's all rugged individualism and bootstraps that Make America Great has a bridge to sell you and is likely a fucking sociopath to boot.

Trump has already started calling Bernie a Communist. He started in a Super Bowl ad. Now, prepare to hear "Bernie is a Communist" from trump every time he speaks. That's not going to pull votes from the center that the Dems desperately need to win this. And to those in the center, socialism and communism are cousins.

Trump spend all that effort to smear Biden, even getting impeached for doing it. Don't think the pig lord is going to go easy on Bernie.

[SmartAleq]

No he won't, but he sounds deranged when he says "the sky is blue" so all I'm seeing is that there's gonna be this insane blowhard dickhead that every person in this country has watched unravel in real time going up against the smart, organized, policy driven, sensible, kind Bernie and let's face it, only an insane person could fail to see which one is the better bet, especially with four years of history to look back and reflect on. No, the crazy ones won't change their minds, just like the crazy diehard neoliberal Dems won't change their minds--but what is truth, and what is becoming more and more obvious with every single day, is that those crazy people are IRRELEVANT. They are old, they are dying out and they are numerically overwhelmed by younger, more energetic, more diverse people who are fucking tired of living in a world that only benefits the old crazy rich people. And rightly so.

[BJMoose]

So....basically the voters in Nevada just told the mainstream media that "you're not the boss of me!" while at the same time telling the DNC "you're not my real dad!" LOL...


Which is, of course, as it should be.

[What Exit?]

...
Also, this is really good:
[ YOUTUBE]pjHn4l1stDU[/YOUTUBE]
That was good. I was surprised.

[SmartAleq]

Yeah, Joy has been a real pill all along, nice to see her finally coming out of her neoliberal derangement syndrome. Mind you, I don't think it's any sort of actual seachange for her but those assholes always trim to the prevailing winds so when they start coming around (or when Tweety starts freaking out about Nazis and guillotines in Central Park) it's a big clue that changes are afoot. I'll take it! MSDNC is owned by Comcast and they're rabidly anti-Bernie so when Morning Joe and AMJoy start breaking ranks it's telling.

[Sputnik]

From CNN today RE: his 60 minutes interview.

So, here's what we now know about Sanders' plans for America:

1) He isn't sure how much they will cost.

2) He isn't totally sure how he will pay for them.

3) It's likely they will be paid for by an increase in taxes on the middle class.

I think he just lost the middle class.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-2020/index.html

[AuntiePam]

I think he just lost the middle class.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-2020/index.html

Only if they do what you did and just read the headline, or even just read the article (biased to make Cooper look better) -- but not if they watched the actual interview. I like Cooper but in his attempt to trip Bernie up -- to not make CBS/CNN look like a shill for the Democrats -- he failed to listen to what Bernie was saying. There were a lot of clumsy cuts in that interview. Shame on CBS.

One good point that Bernie made is that no one ever asks how will we pay for the defense budget, or the tax breaks for the 1%, or farm subsidies that were necessary because of Trump's tariff wars.

[SmartAleq]

Bernie understands MMT but is forced to dumb it down to deal with morons who think "But how ya gonna pay for it, huh? HUH? I don't want my taxes paying for [whatever the stupid person dislikes]!" is a compelling riposte. It's becoming unbearably obvious why expanding and improving education is so high on Bernie's priority list.

[Zeener Diode]

FWIW, John Oliver made a convincing argument for Bernie's plan: *

On paper, free coverage sounds great. But the cost is what scares people, and the proposed trade-off of higher taxes versus no medical costs EVER doesn't seem to resonate with the great unwashed. The Hospital and Insurance industries will fight such plan to their death, and while hospitals will survive the other won't, which raises the specter of jobs lost. Of course the GOP will oppose it, and likely pull more than a few Democrats to their side. And others will float proposals like Mayor Pete, which seems to simply mollify anxious voters while doing nothing to improve the health care crisis.

Getting the ACA passed was no small feat. Getting Social Security and Medicare passed was no small feat. But they did, and we are none the worse for it. Oh, and btw: the latter proposals were presented to the American public by FDR, a Socialist Democrat who was elected president four times in a row.


*I can't get Youtube to load. You can search for John Oliver Medicare.

[BJMoose]

This is a good time to drag Bernie himself into the thread. The comments were made tonight and largely bear on matters that keep coming up here.


hYmlzB7AIWM

[SmartAleq]

The only reason the cost of single payer scares people is that they are both innumerate and are being lied to regarding the cost. I mean, never mind that Yale Medical School study proves out that M4A will not only save half a trillion dollars over what we're paying RIGHT NOW, it would also save almost 70K lives per year and prevent the over half a million medical bankruptcies that currently happen every goddamned year. Even a complete idiot who nonetheless managed to make it past 5th grade math can figure out that [current income level] - 29,000 exempt income x .04 comes out to LESS THAN WHAT THEY PAY RIGHT THIS MINUTE not to mention there would be no copays, no deductibles, no out of network charges or out of pocket charges and there's a firm (and very low) cap on all prescription drug costs. Add in not having to pay for dental insurance (covered) and vision care (covered) and mental health care (currently barely covered by most insurance plans--covered by M4A) and you have, no matter how you twist and wring it, a substantial cost savings for everyone. Except for the insurance companies, who are the ONLY beneficiaries of the current system but who've captured legislation to the point where they write all the laws that control their behavior--and at some point we have to ask ourselves when it was that any of us agreed to be wholly governed by the insurance industry.

[Mr. Plumbean]

The quintessential terror of the white American is that a single tax cent will ever benefit a black fella.

[What Exit?]

The quintessential terror of the white American is that a single tax cent will ever benefit a black fella.

I really don't think that is true even in humorous terms. Maybe in Alabama, but not it general.

[Sputnik]

Bernie lacks support with moderate Democrats. Without it, not only will ne not beat trump, he'll cost blue votes down ticket. That's why I did not vote for him. But I did vote a straight blue ticket.

Young Americans don't give a shit about healthcare. Not until they get sick then they want if for free because it's not their fault they got sick.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Any time I say something like that I'm called condescending, contemptuous, and an asshole.

[Mr. Plumbean]

The quintessential terror of the white American is that a single tax cent will ever benefit a black fella.

I really don't think that is true even in humorous terms. Maybe in Alabama, but not it general.

It's no joke.

[JackieLikesVariety]

Getting Social Security and Medicare passed was no small feat. But they did, and we are none the worse for it. Oh, and btw: the latter proposals were presented to the American public by FDR, a Socialist Democrat who was elected president four times in a row.

QFT!

if people understood what being a Socialist Democrat (https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/) actually means we'd all be better off.

[Sputnik]

Any time I say something like that I'm called condescending, contemptuous, and an asshole.

You're not an asshole. IMHO. I think people need to see the voters as three camps. One camp will vote for trump, regardless. One will vote for the left, regardless. It's all those voters in the middle that have to decide which is better. And if you've noticed, trump's handlers have dialed him back post impeachment victory, making him appear to finally get it. If the Dems are only smart enough to run a moderate, they have this. If not, we might well be screwed.

I'll vote blue regardless, but this election really scares me with where it's heading.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Ah, after being off Facebook for a few days my blood has cooled a bit. If it wasn't such a dire emergency to get Trump out of office, I would enjoy Sanders pushing the party back to the left after years of rightward drift.

[AuntiePam]

You're not an asshole. IMHO. I think people need to see the voters as three camps. One camp will vote for trump, regardless. One will vote for the left, regardless. It's all those voters in the middle that have to decide which is better. And if you've noticed, trump's handlers have dialed him back post impeachment victory, making him appear to finally get it. If the Dems are only smart enough to run a moderate, they have this. If not, we might well be screwed.

I'll vote blue regardless, but this election really scares me with where it's heading.

No, I haven't noticed. If anything, he's gotten worse. Watch OneAmericaNews -- they broadcast all his rallies.

Does cleaning house in the Intelligence community sound like he's dialing it back? How about the pardons?

[Mr. Plumbean]

Yeah, he's been given free reign by the Republican Senate and feels accountable to no one.

[Sputnik]

I'm not defending trump. He's a national disaster. But his approval rating is going up, albeit slightly, and that's bad for us in an election year. (see tracker at 538)

This isn't science but Vegas odds still favor trump winning 2020 over all others. Means nothing except some people are putting money on trump winning over any of the field of Dems..

[BJMoose]

Probably guys who can afford to waste money after the tax cuts.


. . . Facebook . . .


There's your first mistake. ;)

[SmartAleq]

One aspect of this campaign that came up while my BFF the therapist and I were bullshitting is that she thinks that Trump, being the deranged narcissist that he is, is nonetheless aware that he's on super thin ice with all his shenanigans coming home to roost. There's no way he'd accept losing to a POC or a woman but he might just consider it acceptable to "put up a good fight" but lose to the overwhelming movement Sanders is creating. This would allow him to retire from the field able to declare himself a "winner" and he might go so far as to lose in the general, have "health problems" that require him to step down before the inauguration just in time to get his get outta shit free card from interim president Pence then jet off to Mar-A-Lago to boast and hold court for the rest of his life. That would be a quintessentially Trumpian thing to do because, quite frankly, I think he's not finding this president gig to be nearly as much fun as he thought it would be. Sure, he's racked up a ton of cash in his term, a sorely needed infusion to the coffers and the kids have also grifted a goodly pile so this would actually be a very smart move for him. He retires a "successful" president according to his slobberingly loyal fanbase AND he fucks over everyone in the GOP he thinks have been disloyal to him. Time will tell, but I think as a theory it has legs.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Oh, I think he'll do as much damage as lame duck as he can. Like pre-emptively nominate the next ten supreme court justices, fire anybody known to have or suspected to have a moral fiber in their body, and pardon any convicted felon who have the resources to pay him back upon release.

[SmartAleq]

Sure, but that'll be done by the weekend after the election and he'll just get bored after that. There's even precedent, Bush basically wandered off after Obama won, dropping the whole mortgage bubble mess in his lap and disappearing. Obama was basically running things before his inauguration--Trump might just do the same.

[Jaglavak]

And the party on the left
Is now the party on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

[etv78]

I clicked the link in post #136. They lost me at the notion that people work for "fulfillment" or whatever word they used. They work to put a roof over their head and food in their mouth.

[Slate]

I'm pessimistic as hell, but...

That fucking Trump convention in 2016 was one of the ugliest and most depressing parades I've ever had the misfortune to witness. I still can't believe how soulless and cowardly a huge swath of America has become. But fuck it...if they can do something crazy and evil, maybe we can do just the opposite.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I clicked the link in post #136. They lost me at the notion that people work for "fulfillment" or whatever word they used. They work to put a roof over their head and food in their mouth.

Assuming you mean this:

We don’t agree with the capitalist assumption that starvation or greed are the only reasons people work. People enjoy their work if it is meaningful and enhances their lives. They work out of a sense of responsibility to their community and society. Although a long-term goal of socialism is to eliminate all but the most enjoyable kinds of labor, we recognize that unappealing jobs will long remain. These tasks would be spread among as many people as possible rather than distributed on the basis of class, race, ethnicity, or gender, as they are under capitalism. And this undesirable work should be among the best, not the least, rewarded work within the economy. For now, the burden should be placed on the employer to make work desirable by raising wages, offering benefits and improving the work environment. In short, we believe that a combination of social, economic, and moral incentives will motivate people to work.

Note use of passive voice.

[Lounsbury]

Well I see you sodding cretins and delusional Left idiots are going to replicate Labour's fiasco and go with an American Corbyn. Bloody cretins. Shall now have to price in second Trump.

Bloody delusional Left, normally I am quite happy with your collective incomptence and self-deluding blithering on. Except in these past four years.

And to think I thought 2018 would have shown you lot a proper path. No, first you have to do your moral tilting at windmills with a pointless failure of impeachment, as obvious a loser as Don Quixote's windmills, and now Amero-Corbyno.

You bloody useless gits.

[Glazer]

Been pretty good myself. How bout you Lounsbury? Everything thing been alright in your world? How's the kid?

[JackieLikesVariety]

Trump, being the deranged narcissist that he is, is nonetheless aware that he's on super thin ice with all his shenanigans coming home to roost. There's no way he'd accept losing to a POC or a woman but he might just consider it acceptable to "put up a good fight" but lose to the overwhelming movement Sanders is creating.

I wish I could see this happening but I don't believe he is anywhere near able to think things through like this. I think he continues to believe he is invincible.

and staying off facebook is an excellent plan for anyone who is stressing over politics.

[BJMoose]

Looks like Louns has finally cornered the market on bile. Congratulations.

Tedious twit.

[Jaglavak]

Although a long-term goal of socialism is to eliminate all but the most enjoyable kinds of labor, we recognize that unappealing jobs will long remain. These tasks would be spread among as many people as possible rather than distributed on the basis of class, race, ethnicity, or gender, as they are under capitalism. And this undesirable work should be among the best, not the least, rewarded work within the economy.

Uh huh. And who decides all that, again?


You bloody useless gits.

Hey Lounsie. Nice to see you too. How's business?

[eleanorigby]

Slate & SmartAleq, either Hillary or Sanders would be far better Presidents than Trump.

The Left leaning, The Trump hating, The Socialists, The Greens (me), need to stop tearing down non-Trump candidates and remember any of them are better than 4 more years of Trump. Warren, Biden, Buttigieg & the rest are all more fit to run the country and would all help reverse the damage Trump has done and hopefully start making some improvements. There are so many areas of improvement. There really isn't one worse than Trump.

Hear, hear. I am so sick of being told that I'm some sort of fascist because I'm a moderate Dem and supported Hillary.*The far left has made her into just as distorted a caricature as the far right. She's not running. Leave her out of this. (*not here; on FB and Twitter). And let me tell you, the Bernie Bros are a toxic horrid mess on Twitter. I've locked my account due to them and their "snark". They are damaging Sanders to a great degree, and his milquetoast responses to reining them in are not working. It's good that the one a-hole (have forgotten his name already) was fired, but the Bros were defending his vile homophobia. Smh.

From CNN today RE: his 60 minutes interview.

So, here's what we now know about Sanders' plans for America:

1) He isn't sure how much they will cost.

2) He isn't totally sure how he will pay for them.

3) It's likely they will be paid for by an increase in taxes on the middle class.

I think he just lost the middle class.


That's not enough, in these strange days, for him to lose the middle class (if, indeed he can be said to have the middle class. I know plenty of middle class Latinx, especially Cuban immigrants/refugees from Castro who openly loathe Bernie). It's that combined with his comments on Cuba/Castro (yeah, I get the nuance. Don't come at me with Obama said the same thing; Obama does not and did not have a history of admiring communism, honeymooning in the USSR etc. Context matters. That and the fact that nuance has gone on life-support in this Stupid Age of 24/7 "news" and hype/drama passing for actual information).
But his Castro comments have lost him Florida--my white relatives in FL say that categorically.

Well I see you sodding cretins and delusional Left idiots are going to replicate Labour's fiasco and go with an American Corbyn. Bloody cretins. Shall now have to price in second Trump.

Bloody delusional Left, normally I am quite happy with your collective incompetence and self-deluding blithering on. Except in these past four years.

And to think I thought 2018 would have shown you lot a proper path. No, first you have to do your moral tilting at windmills with a pointless failure of impeachment, as obvious a loser as Don Quixote's windmills, and now Amero-Corbyno.

You bloody useless gits.
Good to see you. Yes, I do see your point, but refuse to be that pessimistic. Y'all thought Trump would be a useful idiot, and to some extent he was, but howler monkey is now driving the crazy clown car and even some of his cult members are seeing it for the disaster it is. But hey, a few people made money on the suffering of others, so it's all good, right?

I heartily dislike the ineffectual leader that is Sanders. He is not a leader. He has one stump speech. He does not know the details of his own "plans". He has an irrational hatred of Wall St (I'm all for regulating it; I'm all for taxing the shit out of the 1%. We did that under Eisenhower and built an entire highway infrastructure and our public schools were all a mess etc.), but mostly he does not work well with his colleagues. Cue the snark re Senators are corrupt etc. Enough of that shit. Some Senators are, and some are as thick as 2 planks, but we have got to stop with the contempt freely expressed by Americans to those offices and the people who serve them. By that, I don't mean start to revere them either, but basic civility should still be a thing. I'm more than tired of the screeching and the mob rule of internet opinions=righteousness and "justice".

Anyway, I see Sanders as a one-trick pony, and an unappealing one at that. I find him sexist and racist, and lacking in emotional intelligence. He is given a pass, as if wagging fingers in the faces of women and cutting them off as they speak is acceptable. It is racist to whine that you've mentioned Africa-American 50 times, so what is the problem? It is simplistic thinking to hold the premise that class divides all in this nation; it most certainly does NOT. It is just as naive to espouse that eliminating class divides removes racism, misogyny, xenophobia and homophobia from America. These are simple examples becaues I don't have time to write a treatise. In a word, I dislike and distrust Bernie and do not want him for POTUS.

I am however open to other progressives such as Warren. I have not made up my mind yet as to who gets my blue state vote, but IF I have to, I will hold my nose and vote Sanders. Anything, anybody but Trump. BUT I will hold Bernie under a microscope for 4 years (if he makes it; doubtful) and support his challenger, of whom there will be many.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Good post Riggs.

[SmartAleq]

Looks like there are also middle class Cuban-Americans who can correctly parse Bernie's meaning and sentiments and don't have a problem with his stances. (https://www.latinorebels.com/2020/02/25/cubanamericanbernie/)

[stormie]

The thing about single payer that concerns me is the ability of the payer to limit care. Medicare does this, MediCal does this. Your doctor wants 4 more physical therapy appointments, the insurer says no, and there you are. A person would either need ancillary insurance or cash. Both are expensive. (My PT costs between 80 and 100 dollars and that's with her special she-knows-I'm-broke discount.)
My insurer determines whether I will get a licensed drug or the generic drug. We are now finding that some generics are not made to standard. Pharmacies are starting to buy drugs from the lowest seller at the time. If the pharmacy only has generics from India, particularly known for low quality, I get generics from India.
Physicians and insurers are terrified of pain meds now. What if a national policy is put in place to further limit access to class scary pain meds? It will be unavoidable.
As you can see, these problems exist now. I am concerned that they will get worse, based on Medicare and MediCal limitations. Federal health insurance is the best in the country. I suspect 95% of members of Congress haven't faced limits on their health care in decades, if at all.


ps, if Congress is both the House and the Senate, why do we call members of the House Congressperson?

[Sputnik]

ps, if Congress is both the House and the Senate, why do we call members of the House Congressperson?

Congress refers to both Senate and HR as one body. They adopted Senator and Congressperson as names to help identify whether they were Senate or HR. Like Sen. Nonny from Minnesconsin or Congressman Jones from the awesome state of California.

[JackieLikesVariety]

The thing about single payer that concerns me is the ability of the payer to limit care. Medicare does this, MediCal does this.

every single insurance company does this. this is how they make a profit, limiting care.

[stormie]

Ah. So, worst case, no change.

[SmartAleq]

Since every competing insurance company has a great big department of people whose entire job in life is figuring out loopholes to refuse to pay for treatment, getting rid of those large departments would almost have to mean a reduction in treatment refusals.

[Solfy]

Since every competing insurance company has a great big department of people whose entire job in life is figuring out loopholes to refuse to pay for treatment, getting rid of those large departments would almost have to mean a reduction in treatment refusals. coming up with reasons for refusal would become a federal department job instead.

FTFY

I don't understand why a) people stubbornly keep trying to apply free market capitalism to health care and b) systems that work in other countries are rejected in our country. An imperfect but better system is still better. Our current healthcare system is demonstrably broken.

[mjmlabs]

One quibble with the Single-Payer vs. Status-Quo analysis: A private insurance company has incentive to deny care in order to increase profit, even if doing so leads to greater expense down the road for that patient; Wall Street and annual bonuses look at recent numbers, not the big picture, and maybe Patient X's future expenses will be Some Other Company's problem anyway. But in a single-payer system, paying up now to prevent paying more later is a sound financial decision, and better aligns the payer's interests and the patient's.

[Mr. Plumbean]

If we had government-sponsored healthcare we wouldn't need to subsidize this entire multibillion dollar insurance industry and those fuckers could get real jobs.

[Solfy]

One quibble with the Single-Payer vs. Status-Quo analysis: A private insurance company has incentive to deny care in order to increase profit, even if doing so leads to greater expense down the road for that patient; Wall Street and annual bonuses look at recent numbers, not the big picture, and maybe Patient X's future expenses will be Some Other Company's problem anyway. But in a single-payer system, paying up now to prevent paying more later is a sound financial decision, and better aligns the payer's interests and the patient's.

Re: maybe the problem will be another company's later - I feel like the data from the implementation of the affordable care act should suffice to show the real economic impact of paying now to reduce expenses later. It's not always "later" enough for the added expenses to be someone else's problem. Someone health care company bean counter HAS to have done the economic analysis on it. I don't have the data, but I have to believe that early/small problems are always cheaper than later/bigger problems.

My mother turned 40 before companies were required to cover routine mammograms. Her doctor prescribed one, noting "lump suspected" on the form. He assured her that he felt no such lump, but by lying and putting that on the form the test would be covered by her insurance.
Someone had to do the math and figure that paying for breast cancer treatment was more affordable than paying for screening. Blows my mind.

[Jaglavak]

Someone had to do the math and figure that paying for breast cancer treatment was more affordable profitable than paying for screening.

Healthy people don't generate business.

[mjmlabs]

More to the point, before the reforms of the ACA, insurance companies were all in favor of screening ... for other companies' patients. Because then that would be a pre-existing condition that they would never have to pay out for if that patient one day became their patient. But if one of their patients was diagnosed, then they're on the hook for coverage. So public statements praising screening programs in general were often belied by resistance when the time came to actually make screening No-Cost, or otherwise more convenient and therefore more likely, for their enrollees.

Health insurance, even in the Bad Old Days, isn't like most capitalist endeavors where greater volume = greater profits. Fixed revenues of $X per patient per year (adjusted yearly), minus [whatever costs those patients incurred that year]. Finding out someone in your coverage pool had an expensive condition was not a plus; quite the opposite.

[eleanorigby]

Since every competing insurance company has a great big department of people whose entire job in life is figuring out loopholes to refuse to pay for treatment, getting rid of those large departments would almost have to mean a reduction in treatment refusals. coming up with reasons for refusal would become a federal department job instead.

FTFY

I don't understand why a) people stubbornly keep trying to apply free market capitalism to health care and b) systems that work in other countries are rejected in our country. An imperfect but better system is still better. Our current healthcare system is demonstrably broken.

Exactly, Or the least expensive option would be to blanket-statement/boiler-plate treatment refusals entirely. No meds for X condition until Y symptom displays, for example. Or zero reimbursement for routine CTs for all head injuries except these 3 (list). This is disastrous. Plus, it's a few million people so employed. I'm not saying keep the dysfunctional system so that people have work; I am saying that the sheer size of the healthcare industry means we need to move slowly and deliberately and with sensible steps towards betterment.

Medicine is both art and science; certainly some standardization regarding approaches to care is warranted (treatment and its costs can vary widely depending on where you live, and I don't mean poor/uninsured vs well off/insured. I mean your gall bladder surgery can cost $10K in one region and $20K in another--this is insane, but true), but cookie cutter, rigid algorithms serve no one. We aren't widgets; people respond differently to meds, treatments etc. One BP med most certainly will not fit all.

Solfy is correct: we can do this and deliver quality care to almost everyone (there will always be a tiny percentage of people who refuse care) ala France or Germany or other European models. It's a matter of priorities. Right now we'd rather sink our money into bombs and missiles.

I want universal health care; have wanted it for decades. I am not enthused about single payer. ACA was a good start. People are screaming for Medicare 4 all. It makes me laugh. Medicare only pays 80%. I want Medicaid for all, but with (like with NHS) the ability to opt out and pay for private care, if desired.

[Solfy]

Healthy people don't generate business.
For insurance companies healthy people are cash cows until they start incurring costs.

More to the point, before the reforms of the ACA, insurance companies were all in favor of screening ... for other companies' patients. Because then that would be a pre-existing condition that they would never have to pay out for if that patient one day became their patient.
That's one of the things that gives me the heebie jeebies about giving one of those DNA screening companies my cheek swab. What's to stop them from selling my info to insurance companies and having them decide 15yrs down the line that based on my genetics I'm high risk and jacking up my insurance costs accordingly? Science is developing to the point where it's possible to really break down previously aggregated populations into tightly defined risk pools. I'm not saying we should, but I wouldn't put it past them.

I want Medicaid for all, but with (like with NHS) the ability to opt out and pay for private care, if desired.I agree. The biggest criticism I've heard of that plan is that it creates a two-tiered system of the haves and the have nots where those of means get to see great docs when they want and those on the government program have long waits for lesser care. We already have a two-tiered system, only the have-nots don't get care until it's dire and they're in an ER racking up higher costs that get passed along to everyone else.

Probably preaching to the choir here. I just find it so frustrating. It must be even worse working in the medical field.

[Sputnik]

Good news for non-Berners. 538 now puts a "no-majority" convention more likely than a Bernie wins convention. A non-majority convention allows delegates being reassigned to another candidate giving him/her the majority. And it's pretty obvious the Dems don't want Bernie, or his bros, at their convention.

[Lounsbury]

Been pretty good myself. How bout you Lounsbury? Everything thing been alright in your world? How's the kid?

Well other than Trump and Boris, really actually quite good. My renewable energy financing empire is expanding, putting actually money to work for that for real good, quite satisifying to work on, particularly when I think about every Euro invested putting Trump voting coal miners out of work, it brings a bit of warmth to the heart. Wee Lad fine, although seems he's on a kind of Gentlemen's C track, which disappoints, but on the Track & Field team and other jockish things so perhaps he shall be in management. [this is humour for those who missed it]

Although a long-term goal of socialism is to eliminate all but the most enjoyable kinds of labor, we recognize that unappealing jobs will long remain. These tasks would be spread among as many people as possible rather than distributed on the basis of class, race, ethnicity, or gender, as they are under capitalism. And this undesirable work should be among the best, not the least, rewarded work within the economy.

Uh huh. And who decides all that, again?

Wiser Heads... You know the usual Sov style thing


You bloody useless gits.

Hey Lounsie. Nice to see you too. How's business?

My RE business is banging along although the delays on panels out of China... Hmm well we shall see diversification post Covid19 I think.


But his Castro comments have lost him Florida--my white relatives in FL say that categorically.

Corbyn, an American Corbyn. Of course the Special Pleading cues up from the hard Left and the hemp heads about how it's not really true, drawing on fuzzy headed anectdote. But once those Sov era videos are put in attack ads...

Well I see you sodding cretins and delusional Left idiots are going to replicate Labour's fiasco and go with an American Corbyn. Bloody cretins. Shall now have to price in second Trump.

Bloody delusional Left, normally I am quite happy with your collective incompetence and self-deluding blithering on. Except in these past four years.

And to think I thought 2018 would have shown you lot a proper path. No, first you have to do your moral tilting at windmills with a pointless failure of impeachment, as obvious a loser as Don Quixote's windmills, and now Amero-Corbyno.

You bloody useless gits.
Good to see you. Yes, I do see your point, but refuse to be that pessimistic. Y'all thought Trump would be a useful idiot, and to some extent he was, but howler monkey is now driving the crazy clown car and even some of his cult members are seeing it for the disaster it is. But hey, a few people made money on the suffering of others, so it's all good, right?

You all?

My dear, none of us (speaking of my field and circles) ever had any positive feeling, even as Useful Idiot for that Orange Cretin, the oranguatang adjacent vulgarian.

Now some of the knuckle dragging Staten Island & Outer Long Island dwelling middle market financial market scammers, well, perhaps amongst them, but they're all one generation away from being mafiosi.


Looks like there are also middle class Cuban-Americans who can correctly parse Bernie's meaning and sentiments and don't have a problem with his stances. (https://www.latinorebels.com/2020/02/25/cubanamericanbernie/)

Et voila the self-deception starts.

Just like bloody Labour activists.

[Glazer]

Wee Lad is still young. There's time for that bloodthirstyness to develop. With your stiff indifference to guide the way.




More humor.

[Borborygmi]

Good news for non-Berners. 538 now puts a "no-majority" convention more likely than a Bernie wins convention. A non-majority convention allows delegates being reassigned to another candidate giving him/her the majority. And it's pretty obvious the Dems don't want Bernie, or his bros, at their convention.I'm a non-Berner but this sounds horrible. Not the prospect of a contested convention per se, but the prospect of a battle all the way to the convention. I'm hopeful that there's already clarity one way or the other coming out of Super Tuesday. For my part, I'm already doing my best to make peace with and be supportive of a nominee Bernie.

[Sputnik]

That doesn't even include the super delegates and what they might do to keep him out.

[What Exit?]

Good news for non-Berners. 538 now puts a "no-majority" convention more likely than a Bernie wins convention. A non-majority convention allows delegates being reassigned to another candidate giving him/her the majority. And it's pretty obvious the Dems don't want Bernie, or his bros, at their convention.

Look, believe it or not, you are rooting for Trump to win. If the Dems have a non-majority convention it probably spells doom. I don't care who wins, the party has to unite behind even a "socialist".

[Jaglavak]

Healthy people don't generate business.
For insurance companies healthy people are cash cows until they start incurring costs.

Yes, but they are useless to everyone else in the medical racket. Insurance companies are not the only players here.



My RE business is banging along although the delays on panels out of China... Hmm well we shall see diversification post Covid19 I think.

Excellent!

If the shitgibbon wins again, how do you feel about sponsoring a refugee? I'll live in a shed and do your gardening while I learn the lingo.

[What Exit?]

Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, at least it’s an ethos. Seriously though, if purged of the racial animus and rooted in an national pride based not on morally ambiguous eugenics or genetic considerations but on mutual respect of every individual’s service to the republic and the unique diversity that our principle of acceptance of all who choose to work for and defend freedom and liberty allows.

WTF?

[Borborygmi]

WTF?Don't worry; that's just placeholder text.

[Ludovic]

I think there's some confusion as to whether a complex noun is always just the sum of its parts. Of course, in this instance, National Socialism is not simply Socialism with a Nationalist character.

[stormie]

I don't understand why a) peopleI can't believe you're still trying to understand. You should know better by now.

I spoke to, then screamed at, a Berner who said he would not vote if the primary was decided by anything but a vote of those people who go to the convention. As recently as my personal memory there were fights on the convention floor until there was an actual winner, so it should be done that way.

But you know he refused to vote last time for High Principles. If any democrat, independent, green, or whatever refuses to vote against that wicked man, they will have bloody hands, if they don't already (that was the scream part).

ps I would be perfectly happy if the ACA was repaired and expanded. It allowed me to qualify for public health insurance. Maybe it was not as good for other people.

[Mr. Plumbean]

The reason people are so insistent that 25% of Democratic primary voters is "the will of the people" is precisely because it's such utter horseshit. This isn't a revolution. He hasn't even won the hearts and minds of most Democrats, let alone the country. Since it's hard to argue with math, they tend to get emotional and call names.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/24/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-voters.html

[BJMoose]

Would you rather go back to having bosses and barons cherry picking convention delegates?

As to your specific complaint, I would suggest the emandation, "25% of the voters is the will of the people who actually bother to vote." Get more people to vote and the plurality necessary for victory will increase accordingly.

[Solfy]

Yes, but they are useless to everyone else in the medical racket. Insurance companies are not the only players here.





But they’re the ones denying coverage.

[Solfy]

I don't understand why a) peopleI can't believe you're still trying to understand. You should know better by now.





Oh absolutely. Life got so much nicer when I quit expecting anything to make sense. I don’t understand, but I’m not trying to either. It’s nonunderstandable.

[Jaglavak]

Insurance companies are not the only players here.

But they’re the ones denying coverage.

Of course if an exemption is spelled out in the contract, then it is what it is. But a lot of these coverage debates revolve around administrative decisions about details that aren't spelled out.

Hospitals have two billing agents for every three beds, who's entire job is to chisel on the insurance companies. The AMA sets standards of diagnosis and treatment. Pharmaceutical companies are very enthusiastic about making sure their products are covered. Everybody has lobbyists and lawyers. Heck, once in a blue moon even the patient will win. Insurance companies can only push their interests so far.

[SmartAleq]

On another note, Tulsi Gabbard drops her heavy pimp hand on the neo-McCarthyist bullshit flying around this election. This is why I love this woman, she is fierce (https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/485051-tulsi-gabbard-presidential-candidates-must-also-condemn-election).

[George Kaplin]

Sanders/Gabbard 2020!

[Glazer]

But they’re the ones denying coverage.

Of course if an exemption is spelled out in the contract, then it is what it is. But a lot of these coverage debates revolve around administrative decisions about details that aren't spelled out.

Hospitals have two billing agents for every three beds, who's entire job is to chisel on the insurance companies. The AMA sets standards of diagnosis and treatment. Pharmaceutical companies are very enthusiastic about making sure their products are covered. Everybody has lobbyists and lawyers. Heck, once in a blue moon even the patient will win. Insurance companies can only push their interests so far.

Ok I lost any point you might have had.

[Solfy]

Ok I lost any point you might have had.

I think it goes back to post 168 where Jag asserted that healthy people don't make money for the hospital. He's listing all the other areas where excess costs are added to the act of providing health care for people, while I was only talking about why insurance companies make decisions the way they do.

I don't disagree that the whole system could be more lean to keep overall costs to patients lower. The thing is, and this is the crux of the issue, people don't choose to need health care. It's an inelastic demand. There will be sick people incurring costs whether they get their preventative care or not, so the hospitals and pharma companies don't need to "allow" people to develop advanced illness to generate profits. But the insurance companies make more money from healthy people than from sick people, so it's in their best financial interest to cover preventative care and screening.

Let's try a different analogy - auto body shops stand in for the hospitals and car insurance instead of health insurance. Car insurance companies would like none of their clients to get into accidents. Auto body shops depend on people getting into accidents so they have business. Hypothetically, insurance companies could nanny everyone to the point where everyone was such a safe driver that they never got into an accident. Then auto body shops would fold. I think that's where Jag is going.

Where the analogy falls down is that WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE. No matter how much preventative care we get, no matter how much sugar we cut out of our diets, just about everyone is going to need health care at some point. (sure, there are the rare exceptions of your 99yr old great grandpa who smoked a pack a day and had steak and eggs for breakfast every day and died peacefully in his sleep never having darkened the door of a hospital; the rest of us will get cancer / have babies / need back surgery no matter how vigilant we are with our annual physicals and regular colonoscopies)

[Pencil]

re: Health care

According to the CIA World Fact Book the U.S. health care is 17.1 per cent of the GDP (2016). In the rest of the OECD countries* it's in the 10-12 per cent range.
My bet (and this is a WAG) is that the whole insurance industry is what is adding cost. All those people needs to be paid and the companies need to make a profit.


*All of them have some kind of single payer health care, and I double-dare you calling UK, Germany or Japan 'socialist.'

[Solfy]

The argument I've heard is that developing expensive technological advances have made it such that the U.S. healthcare system is subsidizing providing those advancements to the rest of the world, and that's why our costs are so high. I don't believe or disbelieve it because I don't have transparency/data that would convince me one way or another. I do 100% believe that there is a significant amount of non-value-added extra costs that do NOT relate to designing the next best MRI/HIV drug/robotic surgery technique.

Sorry if I'm contributing to a hijack of this thread. I feel like health care discussions and Bernie go hand-in-hand.

We had an interesting class discussion with the Greek prof of one of my MBA classes about the pitfalls of free college education. Everyone in Greece can get a free or extremely low-cost education. Now you have to have a PhD to stand out in the job market because B.S. degrees are a dime a dozen. The added value to the overall economy is questionable.

[Pencil]

Everyone in Greece can get a free or extremely low-cost education. Now you have to have a PhD to stand out in the job market because B.S. degrees are a dime a dozen. The added value to the overall economy is questionable.

That's Greece. My GP is from Greece and he moved here, learned Swedish and got a job. There are no college graduates working McJobs in Sweden, and we don't pay for tuition.

There are a lot of things to admire in the U.S. The prestige universities charge high tuition fees but the also crank out Nobel laureates to a higher degree than any other unis. But there is no way that R&D is the reason for the higher costs. Here are some other Big Pharma and Med Tech companies that are not based in the U.S. but in countries with single payer care: Philips, Siemens, Beyer, AstraZeneca, Ferring, Roche.

[Sputnik]

Biden wins South Carolina by a very large margin. Good news for Biden ahead of Super Tues.

[BJMoose]

It really isn't news if everyone expected it.

[Glazer]

Olds?

[mjmlabs]

Unsettling premonition, with silver lining: Bernie = the progressive AuH2O. Or maybe the progressive Moses, leading us to the Promised Land but never finding it himself.

Landslide defeat, but major leftward shift of the Overton window for a generation or more.

[Fenris]

Slightly off-topic, but I don’t want to start a new thread. Boo! Mayor Pete dropped out and I thought he was potentially an awesome candidate. I’m pleasantly surprised he got as far as he did.

[mjmlabs]

Slightly off-topic, but I don’t want to start a new thread. Boo! Mayor Pete dropped out and I thought he was potentially an awesome candidate. I’m pleasantly surprised he got as far as he did.

I'm also surprised at that; I suspect he may have an inside track on the Biden Veepstakes, with a smoke-filled-room deal on the down-low.

That might be a pretty good ticket to beat Trump, so, okay.

I wonder what Joe's team could offer Sen. Amy in exchange for clearing out the moderate/establishment lane? Sec./State?

[SmartAleq]

Steyer also stepped off, lowering the billionaire content of the campaign by 50% so there's that.

A bit more on topic: [Bernie] announces he raised $46.5M in February from more than 2.2M donations, including contributions from more than 350,000 people who donated to the campaign for the first time. Saturday he raised $4.5M, the best one-day haul since the launch of the campaign. (https://twitter.com/edokeefe/status/1234072150279147520?s=21)

[What Exit?]

I suspect Mayor Pete worked a deal with Biden & Bloomberg for the VP slot if he cleared the moderate path.

[BJMoose]

Buttigieg bailed? One would think he would have hung on till next Tuesday at least. Maybe he looked at the polls and can't stand the thought of being eleven times a "loser". Or maybe he's just flat broke.

So, effectively, we are down to Sanders, Biden, and Bloomberg. The battle will be between the latter two, who are splitting the same piece of the pie. If they both stay in the race till the end, Sanders should be in a good position at the convention. I would suggest that everyone start getting used to that idea.

[Glazer]

Did Warren bail?

[BJMoose]

No. But, alas, she has consistently polled at the "also ran" level. Which is a shame since she's my personal favorite. Sharp, determined, and feisty. (Mongo like feisty.)

[SmartAleq]

Nah, but she's making it pretty clear her only reason for staying in is to pick up as many delegates as possible to make things more complicated in a contested convention (https://twitter.com/MikePrysner/status/1233928934112129024). Fuckin' snake.

[BJMoose]

I dunno. All delegates want to gain as many delegates as they can, and she says nothing about her motivation, so the imputed motive appears to be no more than a wild-ass guess. (One might add that the range "California to Texas" encompasses nothing more than Super Tuesday.)

Besides, even if she does control enough delegates to make a difference, wouldn't she simply be doing what any one else in the same position would do?

[mjmlabs]

Yeah, if we're headed for a brokered convention, which seems at least plausible and perhaps likely, delegates = bargaining power.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Sanders/Warren ticket, though, so maybe she can offer Bernie more if she has more delegates to commit.

[SmartAleq]

Not anyone who's actually interested in having their party win the presidential race. All plausible deniability went out the window when the PAC Warren swore she didn't have and wouldn't take money from dropped millions for a Super Tuesday ad buy on her behalf. (https://mobile.twitter.com/krystalball/status/1233699326326603776) It's titanically clear that Dem leadership would rather have ANYONE except Bernie, and that includes four more years of Trump. Another term with Trump won't hurt them a bit, they'll continue to fundraise off him and benefit from his corporate deregulation and tax policies. Never mind all the regular people who'll suffer and die due to oligarchy politics as usual. Fuck us, we don't matter.

And there's no chance of a Warren VP offer because the only thing keeping Bernie from an Epstein style "suicide" is a VP the oligarchy hates more than him--and that means Nina or Tulsi.

[Fenris]

I suspect Mayor Pete worked a deal with Biden & Bloomberg for the VP slot if he cleared the moderate path.

But Pete had something like 20 electoral votes, Biden has mid-40s and Sanders has mid (or high) 50s. Pete was still within reach of pulling it off (granted, it would be a long-shot, but possible).. The more electoral votes he snags, the more valuable of a bargaining chip he has. Even if he's 100% broke, why not just wait it out until after Super Tuesday and see if he can grab a ton more votes and then parlay them into a Veep slot.

BTW: Did the Dems do something about the Superdelegates thing from last time?

[mjmlabs]

BTW: Did the Dems do something about the Superdelegates thing from last time?
Yup; they don't get to vote on the first ballot, unless there's already absolutely no doubt about the outcome. Once the second ballot kicks in and all delegates become "unpledged," they can vote.

from 270toWin.com (https://www.270towin.com/content/superdelegate-rule-changes-for-the-2020-democratic-nomination):

Democratic Superdelegate Rule Changes for 2020

Unpledged delegates, better known as superdelegates* will make up about 16% of Democratic Party delegates in 2020. These party insiders are part of each state's delegation, but are not committed to vote based on the outcome of the state's primary or caucus. This has caused considerable friction over the years. This came to a head in 2016 when many superdelegates announced early support for Hillary Clinton, creating the perception that the party was putting its thumb on the scale in her favor against Bernie Sanders.

As a result, the party has made a significant change for 2020. Superdelegates will no longer vote on the first ballot at the convention unless there is no doubt about the outcome. To win on the first ballot, the frontrunner must secure the majority of pledged delegates available during the nominating contests (primary and caucus) leading up to the Democratic Convention. There are 3,979 total pledged delegates, with the total required being 1,991. (Here's why it's not 1,990 (https://www.270towin.com/content/delegates-needed-to-win-2020-democratic-nomination).)

All delegates become unpledged, with an estimated 771 superdelegate votes coming into play if the convention is contested (i.e., more than one ballot is needed to select a nominee). For those subsequent ballots, a majority of all 4,750 delegates (2,375.5) will be needed to secure the nomination. Given the large field, front-loaded calendar and the party's proportional allocation process, a contested convention can't be ruled out.

* The party is now calling them 'Automatic Delegates', based (we assume) on the fact that these people are automatically made delegates to the convention based on their position within the party.

[eleanorigby]

Well other than Trump and Boris, really actually quite good. My renewable energy financing empire is expanding, putting actually money to work for that for real good, quite satisifying to work on, particularly when I think about every Euro invested putting Trump voting coal miners out of work, it brings a bit of warmth to the heart. Wee Lad fine, although seems he's on a kind of Gentlemen's C track, which disappoints, but on the Track & Field team and other jockish things so perhaps he shall be in management. [this is humour for those who missed it]
Wee Lad must be not so wee anymore. Good to hear he's doing well. And you never know; many wee lads bloom later re academic skills. And if not, if he's happy, that's a good thing.





Corbyn, an American Corbyn. Of course the Special Pleading cues up from the hard Left and the hemp heads about how it's not really true, drawing on fuzzy headed anectdote. But once those Sov era videos are put in attack ads...

Agreed, but with less personal appeal. Corbyn was wallpaper; Bernie is sandpaper, IMO.



You all?

My dear, none of us (speaking of my field and circles) ever had any positive feeling, even as Useful Idiot for that Orange Cretin, the oranguatang adjacent vulgarian.

Now some of the knuckle dragging Staten Island & Outer Long Island dwelling middle market financial market scammers, well, perhaps amongst them, but they're all one generation away from being mafiosi.

Apologies. Should have known you et.al. were not in this group. No insult intended. Not you all, but some thought Donny 2 Scoops would be a useful idiot. They have since found out they're wrong. His cult will gladly follow off any cliff he finds, sadly enough.



This is quite the political ride these tricky days, but I was never in doubt re SC going for Biden. Super Tuesday is another matter. We have a long way to go. I will vote for whoever the Dem candidate is (even Bernie, but truly do not want him because he will not deliver the House or the Senate and also down ticket state races are vital), and my candidate dropped out early (Kamala Harris), so I'm watching from the sidelines a bit, and the view is whip-lash inducing. Will need to pick my candidate soon; my primary is March 17.

Kudos to Mayor Pete for doing what is best for the party. He has a future in politics at the national level; I hope he runs for Congress and serves and learns. He needs to mend some major fences with the black community in South Bend, but he's shown himself willing to learn and grow. He broke major barriers as the first prominent gay POTUS candidate, and did it with grace. Sea change in American politics. Now, if we could only stop with the double standards, moving goalposts and general misogynistic crap women are subjected to....

[wring]

as an aside, I'm pretty ok w/damn near the entire class of Dems originally running as cabinet posts.

[stormie]

Based on here I fear that Berners might stay home in droves.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Let 'em.

[Glazer]

I think the only reason the Democratic Party holds together at all is that the Republicans are such complete pieces of shit.

[What Exit?]

Based on here I fear that Berners might stay home in droves.

A contested convention is a lot worse than one of the seniors just winning the nom. A contested convention is going to cause voters to forget that voting to get Trump out is more important than which Dem is nominated.

I really hope one of the B Boys wins the nomination straight up and I really don't care very much which. Bernie, Biden or Bloomberg are the only viable candidates left now. I hope one trounces the rest on Super Tuesday.

[Sputnik]

Have you seen the new commercial for the Dems? Shows Bernie and his plan and its price tag, massive middle class tax increases and it ends by guarantying Bernie is a vote for 4 more years of trump. That one is followed by a Bernie commercial asking people to sign up to support him. And that's followed by a trump commercial asking people to tell him what they think of ({(socialism)}).


Face it, it's going to be a no-majority convention and the super delegates are going to be so gun shy of a socialist that even George Zimmerman could get the nod before Bernie. Bernie has a hill way to steep for the old man to climb to get those two thousand (?) votes needed.

[Glazer]

This country is being reduced to its lowest common denominators.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I haven't seen the anti-Bernie commercial Sputnik references but wonder if it's a Bloomberg commercial? I don't see the Democrats officially launching a commercial against a candidate.

[Mr. Plumbean]

This country is being reduced to its lowest common denominators.

It was already pretty denominate too.

[Lounsbury]

Slightly off-topic, but I don’t want to start a new thread. Boo! Mayor Pete dropped out and I thought he was potentially an awesome candidate. I’m pleasantly surprised he got as far as he did.

I found it quite amusing myself once I read of his origin (Maltese) to grasp that his last name is essentially Tuniso-Sicalou dialect for Father of Chickens (with the understood meaning, Chicken Master). Bou Tgieg.

Said that way it also sounds less goofy than the American pronunciation.

This entertained me immensely. The actual candidate seemed like an interesting guy, but the Maltese name tickled me.

Sanders/Gabbard 2020!

A brilliant combination, one Actual Live Sov-Sympathetic Red & One Hindu Religious Cultist and Putin Sympa from an electorally useless geography.

A brilliant way to appeal to mid-western rust-belt America.

Right up there with Labour 2019 Strategy.


Well other than Trump and Boris, really actually quite good. My renewable energy financing empire is expanding, putting actually money to work for that for real good, quite satisifying to work on, particularly when I think about every Euro invested putting Trump voting coal miners out of work, it brings a bit of warmth to the heart. Wee Lad fine, although seems he's on a kind of Gentlemen's C track, which disappoints, but on the Track & Field team and other jockish things so perhaps he shall be in management. [this is humour for those who missed it]
Wee Lad must be not so wee anymore. Good to hear he's doing well. And you never know; many wee lads bloom later re academic skills. And if not, if he's happy, that's a good thing.

Yes, he's not quite so Wee any more. Although aside from my inside joke about management track, it is a wee bit peculiar to have an offspring who's essentially an amiable jock by inclination, this being the near opposite of myself at the same age.

Agreed, but with less personal appeal. Corbyn was wallpaper; Bernie is sandpaper, IMO.

Granted that.

This is quite the political ride these tricky days, but I was never in doubt re SC going for Biden. Super Tuesday is another matter. We have a long way to go. I will vote for whoever the Dem candidate is (even Bernie, but truly do not want him because he will not deliver the House or the Senate and also down ticket state races are vital), and my candidate dropped out early (Kamala Harris), so I'm watching from the sidelines a bit, and the view is whip-lash inducing. Will need to pick my candidate soon; my primary is March 17.


I rather do hope that it is Biden and say Klobuchar -Harris was quite the intriguing woman but electorally reinforcing California / West Coast makes precious little sense by electoral vote geographies. Mid West. Well I suppsoe Minn. is not proper Mid-West but the central states geographies which Mrs Clinton lost by a hairs breadth...

Anything to spare the world another four years of the Orange Cretin.

[mjmlabs]

Slightly off-topic, but I don’t want to start a new thread. Boo! Mayor Pete dropped out and I thought he was potentially an awesome candidate. I’m pleasantly surprised he got as far as he did.

I'm also surprised at that; I suspect he may have an inside track on the Biden Veepstakes, with a smoke-filled-room deal on the down-low.

That might be a pretty good ticket to beat Trump, so, okay.

I wonder what Joe's team could offer Sen. Amy in exchange for clearing out the moderate/establishment lane? Sec./State?
Amy Klobuchar will end 2020 presidential campaign and endorse Joe Biden
(https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/politics/amy-klobuchar-ends-2020-campaign/index.html)
Sen. Amy Klobuchar will end her presidential bid on Monday and endorse Joe Biden, a campaign aide tells CNN.

The Klobuchar campaign confirmed that the senator is flying to Dallas to join the former vice president at his rally, where she will suspend her campaign and give her endorsement on the eve of Super Tuesday. Former South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg also will endorse Biden at the rally, a source familiar told CNN.

[story continues at linked article....]

[George Kaplin]

I must admit, it is a little disappointing to see centrist Democrats consolidating round a sleazy, mush-brained shithead who voted for the Iraq war. But snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is the Democratic Party’s speciality, after all.

But maybe I’m being pessimistic. Perhaps the boundless enthusiasm of the legions of ‘Biden Bros’ who might exist will see him through. And his campaign platform, “I’m not Trump. Now take your medicine, you fuckin’ peasants!” is a proven winner, as evidenced by the tremendous success Hillary Clinton had with it last time. Will it work twice in a row, though? I guess only time will tell...

[Lounsbury]

I must admit, it is a little disappointing to see centrist Democrats consolidating round a sleazy, mush-brained shithead who voted for the Iraq war. But snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is the Democratic Party’s speciality, after all.

But maybe I’m being pessimistic. Perhaps the boundless enthusiasm of the legions of ‘Biden Bros’ who might exist will see him through. And his campaign platform, “I’m not Trump. Now take your medicine, you fuckin’ peasants!” is a proven winner, as evidenced by the tremendous success Hillary Clinton had with it last time. Will it work twice in a row, though? I guess only time will tell...

I see you have returned to your usual addled idiocy and shit stirring.

[George Kaplin]

I must admit, it is a little disappointing to see centrist Democrats consolidating round a sleazy, mush-brained shithead who voted for the Iraq war. But snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is the Democratic Party’s speciality, after all.

But maybe I’m being pessimistic. Perhaps the boundless enthusiasm of the legions of ‘Biden Bros’ who might exist will see him through. And his campaign platform, “I’m not Trump. Now take your medicine, you fuckin’ peasants!” is a proven winner, as evidenced by the tremendous success Hillary Clinton had with it last time. Will it work twice in a row, though? I guess only time will tell...

I see you have returned to your usual addled idiocy and shit stirring.

So...what’s your contention? That Biden isn’t sleazy? Because there’s plenty of video evidence to show that he is. Or is it that his brains aren’t rapidly turning into wet sand? Because, again, there’s plenty of video evidence to suggest otherwise. As for his Iraq vote? Well, that’s public record, isn’t it?

And if Joe Biden has a policy platform beyond “I’m not Trump” he’s done a lousy job of publicising it. Could you describe his policy on, say, student loan debt relief in any detail without googling? Because I couldn’t. Don’t have that problem with Bernie Sanders, though. Everyone knows what he stands for. That alone makes him a more viable candidate than Biden.

[Sputnik]

Buttigieg just endorsed Biden.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I have George blocked but let me guess: his posts are stupid.

[SmartAleq]

Not as stupidly pointless nor as mindlessly supercilious as the one I have on ignore so there you go.

[Mr. Plumbean]

You mean mine?

[SmartAleq]

No, silly, you're not on my ignore list--I mean the one I DO have on my ignore list is worse.

Also--are they serious about Biden? Because check out this clip. I mean, dayum. :astonished:

https://twitter.com/KyleKulinski/status/1234579861739536389

Trump is inarticulate AF but even so, sending Unca Joe against him is like sending a toddler dressed in a meat suit into a bear cage.

ETA: I thought this clip from a week ago (https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/biden-misspeaks-says-he-is-us-senate-candidate/2020/02/25/f3ae0319-146f-4ecd-a6ff-4f43e18aee1d_video.html) was bad but just when you think it can't get worse...

[stormie]

Voting tomorrow. I do not know what to do! OK, fill in the little arrow with the pencil, but which arrow? I hate superTuesday.

[SmartAleq]

Roll the dice, go for Bernie! ;)

[Jaglavak]

I have George blocked but let me guess: his posts are stupid.

Oddly enough he's almost making sense this time.

[George Kaplin]

I have George blocked but let me guess: his posts are stupid.

Oddly enough he's almost making sense this time.

What’s really weird is that Lounsbury quoted my whole post, so unless PB has Louns on ignore as well he should be able to read it. Anyone want to do PB a favour/piss him off by quoting my other posts ;)

[Pencil]

[outsider perspective]
If it is Biden, I sincerely hope he picks SPW for VP, who can then act as eminence grey and get things done and plans in motion, while he bumbles around being amiable. Slick MayorTeflonPete would be horrible and there's no way UncaJoe will let Bernie anywhere near power.

Warren would destroy Pence, but how will Biden fare in a debate with Agent Orange looming behind him, looking menacing. Not so well, I'm afraid.

[Lounsbury]

You mean mine?

Hemphead is referring to yours truly as she's butt hurt over past incidents pointing out her addled conspiracy mongering economic, innumeracy and general addledness.

Of course she thinks new age cult follower Gabbard is a great thing, so being on her ignore list is rather a compliment.

[Lounsbury]

I have George blocked but let me guess: his posts are stupid.

Idiotic repetition of Guilani Trump inuedo about Biden. General Georgey boy stupidity.

He hasn't quite yet worked in his racist Xenophobia angle.

[Lounsbury]

[outsider perspective]
If it is Biden, I sincerely hope he picks SPW for VP, who can then act as eminence grey and get things done and plans in motion, while he bumbles around being amiable. Slick MayorTeflonPete would be horrible and there's no way UncaJoe will let Bernie anywhere near power.

Warren would destroy Pence, but how will Biden fare in a debate with Agent Orange looming behind him, looking menacing. Not so well, I'm afraid.

Who the hell is SPW?

If the time comes, and the drooling idiots don't go full Corbynesque Labour, Biden should triangulate with Electoral Map and Gender. Central states appeal, not double down on Coastals.

[Mr. Plumbean]

SPW = Senator Professor Warren. I voted for her today.

Interestingly, she's 70 and the youngest candidate still running (Gabbard doesn't count).

[Sputnik]

‎Dem convention: July 13–16, 2020
Votes needed for nomination‎: ‎1,990
Total delegates‎: ‎3,979

538's model shows (after June 6th primaries)
Biden 1738 (average of all polls)
Sanders 1363 (average of all polls)

No one has the necessary majority. That's why 538 gives a no-majority convention a 60% chance. I expect the Bernie Bros to start the lunch box tantrum when the Super Delegates line up behind Joe. But then, anything can still happen.

[Pencil]

SPW = Senator Professor Warren. I voted for her today.

Interestingly, she's 70 and the youngest candidate still running (Gabbard doesn't count).

I like her. I know Smart's thinks she's a sellout, but they're all greedy power-hungry SOBs*. She does seem to have - if not a plan, then at least a decent roadmap for some reforms. I don't think she can win against DT, but I thibk she'll be a very valuable part of the cabinet. Send the gay boy scout to be ambassador to the UN or EU and he can hone his alleged language skill and mature a bit.


I actually think that Bernie would have the best chance at beating Trump, i.e. better than Biden. But I think he would make a horrible president and make a lot of people very, very disappointed.


*Yes. I Include Bernie,

[Lounsbury]

SPW = Senator Professor Warren.
That is a stupid fucking acronym. Fuck, that's stupid.


SPW = Senator Professor Warren. I voted for her today.

Interestingly, she's 70 and the youngest candidate still running (Gabbard doesn't count).

I like her. I know Smart's thinks she's a sellout

Hemphead thinks Gabbard, a muddle headed cult member who's Puitin sympathetic is great, so what. She's a dimwit. A popular dimwit but a dimwit.

Send the gay boy scout to be ambassador to the UN or EU and he can hone his alleged language skill and mature a bit.
Having heard him speak, he does indeed know his languages, unlike most Americans claiming 2nd, 3rd language.


I actually think that Bernie would have the best chance at beating Trump, i.e. better than Biden.

In a drunk Swedes dreams mate. No bloody way he would survive full out Oppo including his daft Pro Soviet video statements. The American hard Lefties can spin as they like, but he's no more electable than Corbyn & Hard Left Labour was, although their activists make rather similar Special Pleading arguments.

[Pencil]

In a drunk Swedes dreams mate. No bloody way he would survive full out Oppo including his daft Pro Soviet video statements. The American hard Lefties can spin as they like, but he's no more electable than Corbyn & Hard Left Labour was, although their activists make rather similar Special Pleading arguments.
I largely agree. I jst think he might be more effective in debates than Biden against trump, given him a slight edge. Both are going to get totally creamed by the GOP and Trump propaganda machine.
It would've better to focus on getting the senate majority and making Trump a lame duck, president in name only. But I guess the allure of the Oval office tempts all and sundry.
Buttigieg might know more languages than most Americans, but that's setting quite a low bar.

[Lounsbury]

Debates unless utter disasters are for political junkies, who are largely already in one camp or another. Eggheads care about debates.

I do not see Biden getting 'creamed' by Trump & Co machine, any more than Obama was.

Getting a Senate in USA without winning the Presidency (never mind the impossibility relative to geographies inplay)? that's ... bad fiction written by a European about another geography.

As for his langauges, as I have heard speaking in Arabic and French not at all terribly, his capacity is better than the average Swede as well, and at least he's not foisted that yappy twit Greta on the world.

[Jaglavak]

Oboy. Greta's gonna bust a boot off in your ass now.

[Glazer]

Debates over here are watched by many. And seen largely at prizefights. How you do in them. Or are seen as doing. Sways how many people feel about a candidate.

[Lounsbury]

Debates over here are watched by many. And seen largely at prizefights. How you do in them. Or are seen as doing. Sways how many people feel about a candidate.

The data science says otherwise relative to partisan general elections. I will quote the convenient source, 538 (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-we-know-about-the-impact-of-primary-debates/), but it says nothing that eggheads like myself who like data science have not read in plenty of data based (rather than Pundit blithering on based) electoral analysis:
Debates help voters evaluate candidates, and can change minds — under the right circumstances
A debate’s main purpose is to help voters decide which candidate they want to support. And there is evidence that primary debates can change people’s minds. Research by University of Missouri communication professors Mitchell McKinney and Benjamin Warner found that nearly 60 percent of study participants experienced a shift in their candidate choices after watching a debate.

But the circumstances matter. First, debates are more important in primaries, as voters can’t rely on their party identification in selecting a candidate. While vote choices in general elections are mostly shaped by partisanship — and thus debates have a limited effect — primary voters are looking for other differences, such as whether candidates are likable, electable or compatible with them on issues. Studies show that debates affect these perceptions.

Generally, the academic research also agrees that debates have the most impact when voters have relatively little information about the candidates and it’s still early in the election cycle (that is, where we are now).

Mr Biden has been in the limelight with the Obama years for a good long while, and of course before that. The Primary debates with new people had some matter (but if one looks back one sees that even there they changed rather little).

In this situ, it is rather unlikely as the partisan sorting is clear that anything other than a staggering disaster of a debate will in fact change votes. Trump did not objectively do particularly well with his debates with Madame Clinton, but it was her lack of general campaigning skill that killed her (plus her general baked-in-lots-of-people even on the Left and Centre Left disliked her - she's frankly never been a likable figure in a public persona sense )

Public campaigning, "Person I can have a beer with and seems like a normal Joeness" - all things Clinton was staggeringly bad at (as seen in her match ups with Obama) are your key, plus mobilization among all motivatable voter segments with a positive vision beyond Get out Trump (see the Remain and the Labour errors of 2016-2019, and of course general error of Corbyne-Politique(read Bernie Politique)).

Oboy. Greta's gonna bust a boot off in your ass now.

I already have to deal with an annoying set of idiot pious priggish Swedish bureaucrats for a possible placement of Swedish money in my Renewable Energy & Energy Efficiency investment empire. Tedious Greta-esque innumerate pious gits. Were it not likely to offend my London people, I would tell them to fuck off with their idiot priggishness. Bloody fucking priggish tedioius blonde idiots at once technological rubes, innumerates and holier than thou. That yappy little twit Greta will make a perfect Swedish civil servant in the future.

We can not finance hydrocarbon [I]adjacent investment... priggish dolts.

[Sputnik]

Anyone else watch the Super Tues results with a grin? American's got off their ass and voted. Good on you America. If this happens in Nov, we're done with this national nightmare called trump. Well done America.

[What Exit?]

That went unbelievably well for Biden and really poorly for everyone else. I thought Sanders would win Texas and win California by more*. Also shocked he lost Mass to Biden.

Warren needs to throw in the towel and Bloomberg did so we're almost down to a 2 person race. I like that part even if I don't love Biden.

I was waiting until Super Tuesday to $upport a candidate. I am now going to wait for the general election and give money and time (if possible) to the Dems to go head to head against Trump.

I think Amy & Pete getting out was a big boost for Biden and Bloomberg's debate performances countered an awful lot of his money.

I think Biden has this now and I'm surprised, very surprised. But who knows what the next few weeks bring. Sadly Biden is a major gaff machine.

NPR seems to be keeping a running delegate count here: https://www.npr.org/2020/02/10/799979293/how-many-delegates-do-the-2020-presidential-democratic-candidates-have



* though he got the lion's share of the delegates anyway.

[Borborygmi]

Amazing night for Biden. Neither he nor Sanders were among my favorites before the field was winnowed down, but after Nevada I was in the process of making peace with the idea that the nominee would probably be Sanders and now I'm starting to become enthusiastic that it may instead be Biden. With all the in-party drama it is easy to lose sight of the fact that either one would be 1,000x better than His Orangeness. Besides a preference for Biden over Sanders I do believe that Biden has a much better chance of defeating Trump in the general and so I really do hope Biden starts to pull away.

If Biden does go all the way to the presidency he'll continue to be gaffe-prone and sometimes a little embarrassing, but he'll surround himself with competent people and governance will make a refreshing return to the executive branch.

[AuntiePam]

I'll vote blue no matter who, but I'm not looking forward to a Biden-Trump debate. I think if Bernie won the nomination, Trump would probably refuse to debate, but he'll relish going up against Joe. Joe gets rattled even when he's among friends.

Or will they be equal? Hard to say. Trump fucks up because he's ignorant. Biden fucks up because he's quite possibly losing it.