Is living in Europe better than the States?

[shakeandbake]

I was watching a video of Scared Straight on Youtube that featured British teens who travelled to the States and toured U.S. prisons. Many people were commenting on how silly it was because UK prisons (and prisons of many other European nations) are nothing like American prisons.

It made me think about how I always hear that the U.S. is no longer considered the dream country for many immigrants around the world. The Nordic countries as well as Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands are held up as examples of countries with a better safety net, justice system, healthcare, and social equality compared to America.

The U.S. is obviously still better than a large amount of countries, but it does seem to have gained a sour reputation compared to a few decades ago which makes Europe more attractive.

[Pencil]

I'm going to cheat and post < link to a YouTube channel. The Black Forest Family. (https://www.youtube.com/@TheBlackForestFamily)

They are an American couple, millennials, who took the plunge and migrated to Germany. They have put up a lot of videos comparing U.S. and Europe, specifically Germany of course.

I think they are good because they don't shy away from things they feel are worse in Europe and vice versa. Obviously, they came down in favor of Europe, since they decided to get citizenship. I also gather they've taken the effort to learn German, It seems that way when they use German words, which are pronounced very well - at least my my non German ears.

I've only lived in the U.S. for a brief time (9 months), and that was long ago. The changes we've seen in my country are remarkable, both good and bad. I'd imagine that the same holds true for America, so I don't think my perspective from being on the ground 38 years ago is very useful.

I've been back a number of times for briefer visits and we're of course inundated with news and media from America, so I can form a fairly good view of what it's like, but I doubt I can feel the difference.



A couple of things to keep in mind when doing comparisons:
• All countries in western Europe can be said to be 'welfare states.' That welfare differs quite a lot between countries. Something will be 'free' in country 1, but only subsidized in country 2 and has to be paid in full in country 3.
• It kinda evens out. I'd say a college educated couple, with both working and one pre-school kid, will have about the same standard of living in Finland or Netherlands or Ireland. They will bitch and whine about some bills, whereas the couple in the other country will moan about other bills.
• The 1 per cent live as well in EU as they do in the U.S. -It's good to be rich. The next 10 per cent are probably better off in the U.S. at least regarding material wealth. This is because the people in those groups tend to earn substantially more in the U.S.
• But then again, are they happier? We all get about five weeks paid vacation, paid sick leave, paid parental leave. It also differs between countries, but I feel safe in saying that most Europeans live lives more alike than anyone in the U.S.
• I believe, but don't ask me for cites, that the bottom half are slightly better off in Western Europe than in the U.S. Now this is a scale that grades and I think a homeless drug addict in London or Paris is no better off than a person in the same situation in Chicago or NY. Life at the very bottom sucks, wherever you are.

IMO, the biggest difference, by far, is health care. For Western Europe, it is simply not an issue the way it is in the U.S.

Note that I refer to Western Europe. This includes Iceland, Norway and Switzerland which are not in the EU. It also excludes some EU countries that haven't caught up yet: Bulgaria, Romania and to some extent Greece. I'm not up to speed on welfare in Hungary, Czech republic, Croatia, Slovakia and Poland.

[Sputnik]

China is an example of where you don’t want to live. North Korea is another. I suspect those two countries are not alone on that list. The difference in individual freedoms between those countries and European and the English speaking countries is large.

I like going to sleep at night knowing Putin or other despots are not stupid enough to invade the US like Ukraine was invaded. I have medical coverage that takes care of my medical issues. The stores seem to always have food, and other necessaries. I know the banks won’t close and disappear with my meager accounts. I can call trumpy a piece of crap on a crowded sidewalk and walk away without repercussions. I can go to any church I choose, or not go at all. I can gather with my friends in public places and, assuming everyone doesn’t misbehave, or take their close off, be free from governmental intervention. I can read books banned in other places, travel from state to state freely as I choose to. If I get arrested, I like knowing I’m entitled to due process in an open forum.


Other places have similar freedoms I’m sure, but my rights are written in a constitution that guaranties them. Any modern, free, country has a list of qualities equally impressive I’ll bet.

[Jaglavak]

I'd love to play, but that would involve me having some sort of informed opinion about life in Europe. I do read Deutsche Welle and the BBC but am well aware of the gap between that and realilty.

[stormie]

Oh yeah? I'm much better informed. Everything I know about Europe is from mystery novels and 2 vacations. So of course it's better

[Derleth]

• All countries in western Europe can be said to be 'welfare states.' That welfare differs quite a lot between countries. Something will be 'free' in country 1, but only subsidized in country 2 and has to be paid in full in country 3.America is welfare state, too, but European states tend to be more comprehensive in that regard, and, as always, American states have plenty of variation.

That said, watch to see what happens with the NHS in the coming years.

As for how good life is in Europe, well, never ask a man his salary, a woman her age, or a European what they think of the Romani. From my own experience with the Europeans educated enough to post English-language screeds on websites, the attitudes can vary from paternalist segregationism to truly vile, all the while insisting that Americans don't understand because we don't live around them. Similarly, don't think Muslims get a pass, especially in the burqa-ban countries.

Aside from the blatant racism, there's things like naming laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law) in some countries to ensure that outsiders never get the idea they're welcome; similarly, LGBTQ rights are a bit spotty even in the Good Parts of Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Europe) especially places like Italy and, to a lesser extent, Switzerland and Ireland. Europe is, even with the EU, multiple countries with distinct cultures and practices, and some of those cultures are regressive and discriminatory. And it isn't necessarily improving: The attitudes towards trans people in the UK seem to be getting worse.

[Pencil]

As for how good life is in Europe, well, never ask a man his salary, a woman her age, or a European what they think of the Romani. From my own experience with the Europeans educated enough to post English-language screeds on websites, the attitudes can vary from paternalist segregationism to truly vile, all the while insisting that Americans don't understand because we don't live around them. Similarly, don't think Muslims get a pass, especially in the burqa-ban countries.

I don't know if this was directed specifically at me. I did try to be as neutral as is possible for someone who's on the inside.

I do want to address a few points:
Racism/xenophobia is endemic in most parts of the world. Europe is of course not an exception. And it looks different in different countries. Most people in the Balkans despise Albanians. Spaniards despise north Africans and - ironically - Roma*. English think of everything on the other side of the channel as 'The Continent.' basically a place to take vacations in and supply goods. The peoples aren't really worthy of paying attention to. The same goes for Welsh, which are the poor cousins from the hinterlands.
Northern Italians look at Southern Italians with disdain and the people in the south think the northerns are basically Germans. Danes despise Sweden and call it 'Asia,' when they think no Swedes are around**. Swedish people really, really don't like Arabs, Chileans who came to Sweden after the coup in '73 hate Swedes. Belgium is basically two countries in one nation and the two don't care much for each other. Germans have a saying about Austria: They have been really successful in making people think that Hitler was German and Beethoven Austrian.

Far right xenophobic parties are in basically every European parliament, and in charge in some countries. The 'native' population*** is aging and nativity is down. The only way we will be able to keep up our welfare systems is with immigration, but resentment about immigrants is so strong that most borders are closed and very few manage to slip through. Denmark is planning for an asylum center in Rwanda. If you want to seek asylum, you have to do it there, get processed and when your status has been determined and you qualify you may continue to Denmark. Where your valuables will be impounded at the border.


From what I read, not all that different from the U.S. in some ways. Some.


You think the NHS will collapse? Maybe. For some reason Americans always bring up NHS as an example for why single payer health care doesn't work. I rally don't know why.

I still think the American health care system is an abomination. It may work for those with an insurance, within limits. But it is costing way too much, about twice as much as the average in EU. When I hear that the biggest insurer in the America, for all practical purposes, is GoFundMe****, that people are not taking their prescribed medication, because they can't afford to fill their prescriptions is one reason I'd never live permanently in the U.S. if given the chance. With two genetic pre-conditions, two time cancer survivor, all unrelated, I doubt I'd have a good life there. The paid sick leave I had for a full year after my last surgery in 2019 was not a lot of money. I could pay my bills, keep my crappy old car, eat out a couple of times a month and even get a short vacation to the Med. And my job was waiting for me when I was ready to go back to work.



* Ironically because their most cherished tradition, flamenco and the surrounding trapping, vestments and accoutrements have distinctly Arabic and Roma roots, mixed to become Spanish.
** Because Sweden, along with Norway and Finland are connected to Russia, which is Asia. Or some such. Look at a map.
*** For a given value of native. The first wave from the Balkans to reach Sweden in the 60's has gone native.
**** I think this is hyperbole, but maybe it's true?

[Derleth]

I don't know if this was directed specifically at me. I did try to be as neutral as is possible for someone who's on the inside.No, it wasn't.

From what I read, not all that different from the U.S. in some ways. Some.It seems that more of the racism is written into official policy in various parts of Europe, or is tolerated to a greater degree than it would be here. Amnesty International has a good list as it relates to the Roma. (https://www.amnesty.org.uk/roma-rights)

The 'native' population*** is aging and nativity is down. The only way we will be able to keep up our welfare systems is with immigration, but resentment about immigrants is so strong that most borders are closed and very few manage to slip through. Denmark is planning for an asylum center in Rwanda. If you want to seek asylum, you have to do it there, get processed and when your status has been determined and you qualify you may continue to Denmark. Where your valuables will be impounded at the border.The immigration issue is one where America is unambiguously more liberal than Europe, simply because America has jus soli and Europe has jus sanguinis as a rule: In America, if you're born here, you're in, whereas in Europe, it's a matter of blood. Long story short, Europe has completely done away with the "anchor babies" our right-wing nutcases rant about.

You think the NHS will collapse? Maybe. For some reason Americans always bring up NHS as an example for why single payer health care doesn't work. I rally don't know why.Keep the Tories in power and see. The NHS had huge walk-outs earlier this year.

I still think the American health care system is an abomination.Hey, you won't get any arguments from me. I was lucky enough to have very good insurance when I was going through the most expensive parts of my cancer treatment, but I know it is, overall, a huge problem and needs to be overhauled. I am all in favor of expanding the American Welfare State in general, and healthcare is a big part of that.

However:

When I hear that the biggest insurer in the America, for all practical purposes, is GoFundMeI think that's hyperbole.

With two genetic pre-conditions, two time cancer survivor, all unrelated, I doubt I'd have a good life there.Obamacare Go!! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act):Insurers were made to accept all applicants without charging based on preexisting conditions or demographic status (except age). To combat the resultant adverse selection, the act mandated that individuals buy insurance (or pay a fine/tax) and that insurers cover a list of "essential health benefits".

[snip]

The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 set the individual mandate penalty at $0 starting in 2019.It's a long way from perfect, but it is progress, and thinking it doesn't exist is like Americans thinking all Euros have five-month wait times to get in to see a doctor after a heart attack.

And my job was waiting for me when I was ready to go back to work.We got something for that as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_and_Medical_Leave_Act_of_1993):The Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 (FMLA) is a United States labor law requiring covered employers to provide employees with job-protected, unpaid leave for qualified medical and family reasons.[1] The FMLA was a major part of President Bill Clinton's first-term domestic agenda, and he signed it into law on February 5, 1993. The FMLA is administered by the Wage and Hour Division of the United States Department of Labor.Interesting how the GOP did zero out of two of these. Must be sampling bias.

[shakeandbake]

What I have found (not personally but from my non-white friends) is that racism is far more overt in places like South America and Asia.

One of them was refused to buy food from a grocery store in Brazil because they were waiting around 'too long' according to the manager. Even with the race problems in the States, it's not as bad as some other countries.

[stormie]

Can we call it what it is, Socialism, rather than welfare state? Because it's not a welfare state. Everyone pays taxes to support the social programs available, everyone has access to those programs. This form of socialism is a "system of social democracy in which extensive state regulation, with limited state ownership, has been employed by democratically elected governments (as in Sweden and Denmark) in the belief that it produces a fair distribution of income without impairing economic growth."

I believe people are inherently not so great when given buckets of money or unusual privilege, and so benefit both themselves and their society when bound by the regulations of social democracy. Democratic socialism seems to be the basis of betterness in some European societies and societies elsewhere, particularly when bound to a founding document like the Constitution, of which I am inordinately proud. We've got the Constitutional Democracy, just need to add the Socialism part.

Another benefit to the betterness of some nations is their size and homogeneity. It is a lot easier to get a bunch of voters to agree on something when there are tens of millions or fewer, rather than hundreds of millions, and a majority of those tens of millions have the same social background. Unfortunately this does not make the situation of those with different social backgrounds any better. That's a problem of our not so greatness I have yet to see solved anywhere.

I write too much and cannot spell.

[Derleth]

Can we call it what it is, Socialism, rather than welfare state?No, because it is a Welfare State. It was invented to take support from Socialism.

Thank Otto von Bismarck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck)A master of complex politics at home, Bismarck created the first welfare state in the modern world, with the goal of gaining working class support that might otherwise go to his socialist opponents.

[stormie]

A good 'is not' deserves a good 'is so'.

[Derleth]

A good 'is not' deserves a good 'is so'.So you aren't interested in discussing this, then.

I'll leave with what a Welfare State is:

https://archives.history.ac.uk/history-in-focus/welfare/articles/katzm.html

The term welfare state refers to a collection of programmes designed to assure economic security to all citizens by guaranteeing the fundamental necessities of life: food, shelter, medical care, protection in childhood and old age.

The fact you think that's somehow Socialism means you've swallowed some propaganda from the American Right Wing hook, line, and sinker, but got it twisted around: You like the Welfare State, you've been raised to think it's Socialist, so you think you like Socialism when, in fact, you like a more functional variety of Liberalism. Thinking Liberalism is Socialist is, really, too ignorant to need much refutation: Liberals and Socialists spent most of the Twentieth Century trying to destroy each other.

[Jaglavak]

Perhaps we could scrape off the labels and just beak it down like that, then.

[stormie]

I ain't doing no argy-bargy. I'm looking up 'beak it down' instead.

[Jaglavak]

Can we at least agree that living in Europe is better than dying in the States?

[Derleth]

Can we at least agree that living in Europe is better than dying in the States?What about living and dying in 4/4 time?

[Dr. Winston O'Boogie]

According to Jimmy, it's living and dying in 3/4 time
7N_4KLP6iOs

[Derleth]

According to Jimmy, it's living and dying in 3/4 time
7N_4KLP6iOsI guess I'm just too common.

[JimNightshade]

That is country music.

[stormie]

If the country is the US

[Derleth]

That is country music.

That this isn't country at all:

Ac0oaXhz1u8

Put that, put that, put that up your wall