Prayer at High School Football Games

[WednesdayAddams]

In this thread (http://www.giraffeboards.com/showthread.php?t=5887), Doyle and I were discussing whether or not a prayer still gets said at our local high school before Friday night games (it doesn't; way too close to an uban center). I'm fairly sure that rural schools still do, in East Texas especially.

In 2000, the SCOTUS decided based on a case from El Paso that prayer prior to games, even when led by a student, are unconstitutional (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=7042).

Although I agree with the court's decision, I don't have a problem with the way other schools are getting around it. They're using a 'moment of silence.' From what I can tell, this does not promote one religion over another or endorse any religions at all. As an atheist, I'm not offended and don't feel my freedom from religion is being encroached on.

Thoughts?

[Doyle]

As a theist, I'm against prayers before the game, due to my strong belief of separation of church and state. However, it's almost as much of an institution as "In God We Trust" down here and so long as no one complains too loudly, it's going to remain.

[Zeener Diode]

Hard to come out and disapprove of the moment of silence issue. Offhand, I'd say it's the best and worst judgment ever to be decided by the Supremes.

[Islander]

Another atheist agrees with the Zeener. Pretty stupid, when you get down to brass tacks, to think that anybody's god is going to care about which team wins a game. It's just a flippin' game, right? Right?

[Doyle]

Another atheist agrees with the Zeener. Pretty stupid, when you get down to brass tacks, to think that anybody's god is going to care about which team wins a game. It's just a flippin' game, right? Right?

They don't pray for a team to win, they pray for the safety of the participants.

[Chacoguy]

They don't pray for a team to win, they pray for the safety of the participants.

Any evidence that it works?

[Doyle]

Any evidence that it works?

No. I'm sure people do oddly pray to win, but I've attended hundreds of games with preceding prayers and all asked for the safety of the players.

[Ramsey]

This is a popular topic in my community right now:

http://www2.tricities.com/tri/news/local/article/aclu_prayer_held_before_gate_city-sullivan_south_football_game_unconstituti/32616/#comments

Although I think this situation is slightly different (a prayer being said for a player who died on the field recently) I'm still anti-prayer at school. If the hillbillies who are screaming to have it allowed had to sit through a Muslim prayer, we'd never hear the end of it.

[Victor Frankenstein]

They don't pray for a team to win, they pray for the safety of the participants.

God says: No. If you don't want to be hurt, play a safer sport.

[Doyle]

God says: No. If you don't want to be hurt, play a safer sport.

I kind of feel the same way.

[Radical Edward]

My school had the moment of silence and we (the band, that is) played the national anthem before it, which is also common. At halftime we (the band, that is) said a prayer for ourselves. Ok, the rest of the band said a prayer. I stood by and looked awkward.

You know, I agree with the court's decision, but at the same time I can't say that the students holding their own prayer really bothers me. Even if it was a teacher, as long as those of us who excluded ourselves weren't pressured to join in, it's no skin off my nose.

[Muffin]

What does a moment of silence represent? Respect for the fallen football players who gave their ACLs to the cause of right?

A moment of silence before a football game is a nudge-nudge-wink-wink-say-no-more nod to a Christian religious tradition, and therefore should not be conducted.

[Islander]

Dang! 7 got there before I did.

Hurling (a vicious, brutal Irish game played with sticks) is the most dangerous game I know, and even the Irish Catholics don't pray. The winning team is the one with the most survivors.

[WednesdayAddams]

What does a moment of silence represent? Respect for the fallen football players who gave their ACLs to the cause of right?

A moment of silence before a football game is a nudge-nudge-wink-wink-say-no-more nod to a Christian religious tradition, and therefore should not be conducted.
The moment of silence means whatever you want it to mean. Yes, it is a nudge nudge, wink wink nod to the Christian tradition, but it cannot be banned under the law unless they make a point of stating it's for prayer, specifically Christian prayer. The law states the government cannot endorse one religion over any other, establish a religion or prohibit the exercise thereof. If during that moment of silence people want to pray, the government can't stop them from doing so. I generally spend the time tooling around on my blackberry.

[Martini Enfield]

I think it's the best compromise anyone is going to be able to come up with, although I have to say that high school sports matches in NZ were never taken anything like that seriously when I was growing up (No prayers/moments of silence, no National Anthems, no Generally Acting Like The Game Was Really Important).

It's all a bit baffling, IMHO.

[WednesdayAddams]

It's just an over the top reaction to a perception that the Christians' rights are being taken away from them. Crap of course, but tell them that.

[Ken S.]

what if I don't want to remain silent? What if I choose to sing the National Anthem during the moment of silence, or make fart sounds with my armpit? Am I going to be arrested? Who are they to tell me I have to remain silent? Isn't that tanatmount to an attempted total suspension of the First Amendment?

[Muffin]

Word.

[Doyle]

what if I don't want to remain silent? What if I choose to sing the National Anthem during the moment of silence, or make fart sounds with my armpit? Am I going to be arrested? Who are they to tell me I have to remain silent? Isn't that tanatmount to an attempted total suspension of the First Amendment?

I doubt you'd be arrested, you'd look like an idiot though.

[cormac]

Hurling's a great game. puts hair on ones tits - plus you dont have to be either irish or catholic to play. The winning team is the one with the most teeth left.

Dang! 7 got there before I did.

Hurling (a vicious, brutal Irish game played with sticks) is the most dangerous game I know, and even the Irish Catholics don't pray. The winning team is the one with the most survivors.

[Uthrecht]

What if I choose to sing the National Anthem using fart sounds with my armpit?

Fixed that for you. Do that right, you might even get a late-night TV appearance.

[WednesdayAddams]

Hell, they might even put him on the 50 yard line at half time. That's entertainment right there, son.

[Uthrecht]

Hell, they might even put him on the 50 yard line at half time.

Of course, do it wrong and they'll put him on the 50-yard line during a punt. :sciencefail:

[ItsInTheCards]

They still have a prayer before games in these parts, even in little league. I don't participate and neither do my children (who are often players). But we respect those that choose to believe and give them their moment. The boys simply stand off to the side of the "prayer circle". They have never been admonished in any way for not participating, but I believe that is because no one wants to hear my rath if something were to be said.

[WednesdayAddams]

In other news, the North Richland Hills (http://cbs11tv.com/local/Metroplex.atheists.North.2.1214396.html) city council is still peopled by stubborn idiots.

I don't know why we have to continue to have this same fight over and over and over. Church. State. Separate. They pick fights they can't win and then insist they're being persecuted.

[Mako]

I know that this is really dumb of me and I'm opening a can of worms, but the whole thing seems like a contradiction.

Separation of church and state. Okay, I get that. It's kind of in the 1st amendment and I'm supposing that this allows for religious freedom and non-partisan lawmaking.

But, er, the word "God" is right there, on dollar bills. Insurance companies are allowed to deny payout because of "Acts of God". By default, you swear on a Bible in court, (I'm not sure if you have the option of a civil declaration in the US?). When I was a kid, I put my hand on my heart and swore allegiance to a republic (and its flag) which was - and presumably still is - one nation under God.

But hang on - the 1st amendment says nothing about what religion the state is. It just says you can do what you want. On the other hand;

When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some. (Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun)

So you've got a state which supports religious diversity, supports your right to believe what you want, but is grounded in Christianity. What am I missing?

[Uthrecht]

Mako, I would certainly agree with anyone who says there's some double standards at work, as far as the federal government and religion are concerned. As you say, there are plenty of trappings sprinkled around that have religious connotations. At the same time, most of them are just that: trappings, not requirements and such. The swearing the oath is allowed to be non-religious if the person prefers. "Acts of God", I'd say is just a nice term for crap people can't control.

Where I think it gets sticky and I want my government out is where various institutions try to set time and space specifically for one religion (or worse yet, money). It's one thing to have a handy slogan on my currency; it's another to require folks to listen to one religious figure or another chatter on (at least passively by holding up stuff while he or she talks). I wouldn't have a particular problem if, at public school games, folks wanted to take five minutes to break out into small groups, and those of certains faith gather together while those that don't want to be bothered can hit the bug juice early. Likewise hey, if people want to have a morning prayer in a public high school prior to homeroom (or whatever they call it) start up, that doesn't bug me. Do it off the main body's time.

The government's got a lot of weight. It needs to be selective in the subjects it gives attention to, because that gives those subjects power.

[WednesdayAddams]

I know that this is really dumb of me and I'm opening a can of worms, but the whole thing seems like a contradiction.
It can be, and it has been and will continue to be a fight to correct it.

Separation of church and state. Okay, I get that. It's kind of in the 1st amendment and I'm supposing that this allows for religious freedom and non-partisan lawmaking.

But, er, the word "God" is right there, on dollar bills. Insurance companies are allowed to deny payout because of "Acts of God". By default, you swear on a Bible in court, (I'm not sure if you have the option of a civil declaration in the US?). When I was a kid, I put my hand on my heart and swore allegiance to a republic (and its flag) which was - and presumably still is - one nation under God.

We have the option to not swear on a bible but solemnly affirm, and acknowledge that we understand the penalty for perjury.

But hang on - the 1st amendment says nothing about what religion the state is. It just says you can do what you want. On the other hand;

(Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun)

So you've got a state which supports religious diversity, supports your right to believe what you want, but is grounded in Christianity. What am I missing?

No, it is not grounded in Christianity. That's the problem, lots of people think it is. It isn't. The word 'god' wasn't put on the money until 1950something. It is nowhere in the Constitution, and that is the highest law of the land. We have a largely Christian populace but a secular government. And because we have a largely Christian populace and have since day 1, they tend to get angry and offended whenever someone asks that the Christianity in a particular government function get removed. 'But it has always been there!' they moan. 'Tough luck,' we reply. 'That doesn't make it right.' Slavery had always been here too, til we threw it out. Our government was set up as a secular government for good reasons. That isn't going to change just because there are now enough religions active in the US that Christianity has to actively observe the 1st amendment instead of just acknowledging it as a formality.

[Anacanapuna]

Interesting story about out little town's only high school. About 10 years ago our town was home to the only Muslim family between Denver and Omaha. The high school football coach had a pre-game locker room ritual that ended with, "Awright, boys, take a knee for the Lord!" The team would kneel and the coach would ask the Good Lord's protection over the lads on the contested field, ask that everyone's actions would be "acceptable in your sight, O God," etc., and then bestow a blessing. He said that after the rah-rah buildup, he wanted just a moment to center them and focus their minds. It seemed to work; every year he coached, including all four years my son played for him, the team went to the playoffs.

Well, when a defensive tackle named Muhammed Ahmed started two-a-days that one year, the coach immediately called the player's parents and asked to meet with them. He told them he was willing to forgo the locker room prayer if they wanted. They assured the coach that they worshipped the same God, just by a different name, and the prayer would be fine. The coach edited out references to Jesus and said the same prayer all season.

During the final game of the regular season, team members asked Muhammed to lead the prayer, and to a man the team knelt and, after Big Mo asked for Allah's blessing and protection, every player murmured a heartfelt "Amen."

I've never been so proud to know a group of young men in my life.

The reason I know this is that I covered those football games for the local newspaper (my son played, I was going to be there anyway, so I covered the games.) I was so moved by the episode that I wrote a column about it. Turns out, I shouldn't have. Angry, intolerant parents descended on the school to rant about their kids being made to pray to a "heathen god." There was a meeting at which the coach, a man with balls of iron and a back of steel, told the parents he was frankly ashamed of them, his players were ashamed of them, and they were an embarrassment to the community. He walked out of the room, the players got up and left, and as far as I know nothing more was said about it.

[Zeener Diode]

That's a story with a happy ending.

Even if they're being raised by intolerant parents, the kids have their own perspective. And good on the coach for playing straight.

[mlerose]

San Dimas High School football rules!!!!!



what?

[The Superhero]

The reason I know this is that I covered those football games for the local newspaper (my son played, I was going to be there anyway, so I covered the games.) I was so moved by the episode that I wrote a column about it. Turns out, I shouldn't have. Angry, intolerant parents descended on the school to rant about their kids being made to pray to a "heathen god." There was a meeting at which the coach, a man with balls of iron and a back of steel, told the parents he was frankly ashamed of them, his players were ashamed of them, and they were an embarrassment to the community. He walked out of the room, the players got up and left, and as far as I know nothing more was said about it.

Yup, nothing will bring religious intolerance and zealotry out of the woodwork like religious tolerance and understanding.

That coach is kind of my hero.

[Sleel]

God says: No. If you don't want to be hurt, play a safer sport.
Archangel Michael's addendum: don't pick soccer (http://lib.bioinfo.pl/meid:214918d) unless you want to give George Foreman a run for the drooling Olympics when you're older.

[Baldwin]

The reason I know this is that I covered those football games for the local newspaper (my son played, I was going to be there anyway, so I covered the games.) I was so moved by the episode that I wrote a column about it. Turns out, I shouldn't have. Angry, intolerant parents descended on the school to rant about their kids being made to pray to a "heathen god." There was a meeting at which the coach, a man with balls of iron and a back of steel, told the parents he was frankly ashamed of them, his players were ashamed of them, and they were an embarrassment to the community. He walked out of the room, the players got up and left, and as far as I know nothing more was said about it.When it's obviously okay with the kids, you'd think that somewhere in their parent's brains a light would go on, and they'd think, "Hey, if it's only a problem for me and not for my kid, maybe I should leave this one alone. Maybe -- maybe I'm wrong." Nah.

[Mako]

No, it is not grounded in Christianity. That's the problem, lots of people think it is. It isn't. The word 'god' wasn't put on the money until 1950something. It is nowhere in the Constitution, and that is the highest law of the land. We have a largely Christian populace but a secular government. And because we have a largely Christian populace and have since day 1, they tend to get angry and offended whenever someone asks that the Christianity in a particular government function get removed. 'But it has always been there!' they moan. 'Tough luck,' we reply. 'That doesn't make it right.' Slavery had always been here too, til we threw it out. Our government was set up as a secular government for good reasons. That isn't going to change just because there are now enough religions active in the US that Christianity has to actively observe the 1st amendment instead of just acknowledging it as a formality.

Apologies - that was more a grammatical error on my part rather than a statement of belief. I suppose I meant, "... can believe what you want, but appears to have a bias toward Christianity." Dammit, I was even thinking that when I put the Blackmun quote in! :rolleyes:

But either way I think you explained it nicely.

[WednesdayAddams]

No apologies necessary, and it wasn't even really directed at you personally. It's just one of my buttons. I can't tell you how frequently I hear 'We are a Christian nation!' expressed by someone who can't be bothered to look up what the law says, much less understand what it means.

[Muffin]

What the law says, and what the populace is, are two different things.

[Flyfisheron]

Well, my son plays for a local Catholic high school. On game day's, they are expected in 'chapel' a half hour before the school day starts.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it (even though we aren't Catholic). I think one needs to step outside the box to view what is really going on with these kids. I don't think it is necessarily about 'praying' as much as it is about 'focus'.

[WednesdayAddams]

What the law says, and what the populace is, are two different things.
Yes....that's what I said. I don't understand your point.

[WednesdayAddams]

Well, my son plays for a local Catholic high school. On game day's, they are expected in 'chapel' a half hour before the school day starts.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it (even though we aren't Catholic). I think one needs to step outside the box to view what is really going on with these kids. I don't think it is necessarily about 'praying' as much as it is about 'focus'.
That's a little different. A Catholic high school is a private school which is not a subsidiary of the state. Its teachers are not state employees. It isn't about focus, it's about the law regarding school prayer and separation of church & state.

[Ken S.]

Separation of church and state. Okay, I get that. It's kind of in the 1st amendment and I'm supposing that this allows for religious freedom and non-partisan lawmaking
It's not "kind of there," it's explicitly there in the Establishment clause. The government is not allowed to endorse any specific religious view.But, er, the word "God" is right there, on dollar bills.
That wasn't put there by the founding fathers. Yes, this is a technical violation of the Establishment Clause, but the Supreme Court (at its theocratically activist best) fabricated a loophole called "ceremonial deism" to justify it. Essentially they decided (wrongly) that the motto did not invoke any specific deity or make any specific statement about religion. In reality, they were just too chickenshit to call it what it was. Yes, this is a contradiction of sorts, but that doesn't mean the SOCAS doesn't exist, only that the government is capable of violating it sometimes.
Insurance companies are allowed to deny payout because of "Acts of God".Insuurance companies aren't the government. Private companies are allowed to use whatever language they want.
By default, you swear on a Bible in court, (I'm not sure if you have the option of a civil declaration in the US?).
You don't have to swear on a Bible in Court. In fact, I've never heard of anybody swearing on a Bible in Court. It's conventional to raise your hand and swear to God, but you don't even have to do that. All you have to do is affirm that you know it's illegal to lie "under oath."
When I was a kid, I put my hand on my heart and swore allegiance to a republic (and its flag) which was - and presumably still is - one nation under God
That was another SOCAS violation, but it's no longer madatory.
But hang on - the 1st amendment says nothing about what religion the state is. It just says you can do what you want.
No, it also says that the governmment can't establish a state religion, and , by extension, cannot endorse any particular religious view as being true or false.
On the other hand;

(Supreme Court Justice Harry A. Blackmun)

So you've got a state which supports religious diversity, supports your right to believe what you want, but is grounded in Christianity. What am I missing?


"The United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."
-Treaty of Tripoli (ratified under President John Adams)

There is nothing in the US Constitution that is grounded in Christian doctrine whatsoever. It's a totally secular document.

[Ken S.]

Interesting story about out little town's only high school. About 10 years ago our town was home to the only Muslim family between Denver and Omaha. The high school football coach had a pre-game locker room ritual that ended with, "Awright, boys, take a knee for the Lord!" The team would kneel and the coach would ask the Good Lord's protection over the lads on the contested field, ask that everyone's actions would be "acceptable in your sight, O God," etc., and then bestow a blessing. He said that after the rah-rah buildup, he wanted just a moment to center them and focus their minds. It seemed to work; every year he coached, including all four years my son played for him, the team went to the playoffs.

Well, when a defensive tackle named Muhammed Ahmed started two-a-days that one year, the coach immediately called the player's parents and asked to meet with them. He told them he was willing to forgo the locker room prayer if they wanted. They assured the coach that they worshipped the same God, just by a different name, and the prayer would be fine. The coach edited out references to Jesus and said the same prayer all season.

During the final game of the regular season, team members asked Muhammed to lead the prayer, and to a man the team knelt and, after Big Mo asked for Allah's blessing and protection, every player murmured a heartfelt "Amen."

I've never been so proud to know a group of young men in my life.

The reason I know this is that I covered those football games for the local newspaper (my son played, I was going to be there anyway, so I covered the games.) I was so moved by the episode that I wrote a column about it. Turns out, I shouldn't have. Angry, intolerant parents descended on the school to rant about their kids being made to pray to a "heathen god." There was a meeting at which the coach, a man with balls of iron and a back of steel, told the parents he was frankly ashamed of them, his players were ashamed of them, and they were an embarrassment to the community. He walked out of the room, the players got up and left, and as far as I know nothing more was said about it.
The coach was in the wrong. His practice of praying at those kids at all was inappropriate from the start. Being nice to a Muslim kid doesn't excuse it.

[Martini Enfield]

The coach was in the wrong. His practice of praying at those kids at all was inappropriate from the start. Being nice to a Muslim kid doesn't excuse it.

It does rather raise the question on what his attitude might have been if a non-religious player said "Sorry, I'm not praying to a God I don't believe exists".

Of course, in rura; Texas, I doubt there's much chance of that happening, but even so...

[Ken S.]

You also have to wonder how much freedom that family really felt they had not to go along.

[Anacanapuna]

The coach was in the wrong. His practice of praying at those kids at all was inappropriate from the start. Being nice to a Muslim kid doesn't excuse it.I'm glad your moral compass is so undeniably accurate. It must be nice to be you and have absolutely no doubts whatsoever about what is right and wrong. Alas, I lack your reckless confidence.