Disrespectful to insert your religion onto others

[wring]

this is true to me, in a number of ways. First of course, is the idea that your religious beliefs should be codified into laws governing others. we seem to have no problem asserting that Sharia laws are bad, but somehow "it's in the Bible" is considered fine to codify into law here.

I started thinking about this issue recently when Tina Turner died (ok, I know that seems to come from left field, but bear with me, ok?). She was a practicing Buddhist. In fact, she credited her survival on her belief, giving her the strength to leave Ike Turner w/a few pennies, the clothes on her back, the blood on her face and a gasoline credit card. and yet, I see all over the place, tribute cartoons and memes, and words about "God needed her voice in His choir", her at the pearly gates etc.

Wouldn't it be more respectful to not insert YOUR religious beliefs?

When Enzo died, I wanted to respect him and his memory, so his "event" (I refused to call it a memorial service or 'celebration of life') it was all about what he would have wanted. I wanted to do the same when our dad died. (I signed him into hospice, knowing that is what he wanted. the only thing I didn't get my way on was having a minister when his ashes were buried - our sister insisted on it, my brother and I wanted to forego it 'cause dad wasn't religious either, but hell. )

Throughout my adult life, I've had many friends, associates, neighbors, loved ones. Various levels of religious beliefs and adherence. Folks that I seriously had issue with were most often what I thought of as "Christians with a capital K" - those who would be nice only to others within their belief structure (though Christianity's teachings were to love others period. not 'love your fellow worshipers') and of course, those who want 'freedom of religion' to mean that their religious beliefs should be the law of the land. I absolutely love Ron Regan jrs. ad for "freedom from religion".

ok, so this is more of a jumbled mess than I thought, but what the hell.

[What Exit?]

Agreed. I feel the same way.

[SmartAleq]

I consider one's spiritual beliefs to be about the same as genitalia--everyone has them to one extent or the other, everyone uses or doesn't use them to the degree they deem necessary and the entire mess ought to remain decorously out of sight and out of mind unless someone specifically ASKS to see or hear about them. If nobody asked, keep it to yourself and stop taking it out and rubbing it on random people in the subway FFS.

[running coach]

I consider one's spiritual beliefs to be about the same as genitalia--everyone has them to one extent or the other, everyone uses or doesn't use them to the degree they deem necessary and the entire mess ought to remain decorously out of sight and out of mind unless someone specifically ASKS to see or hear about them. If nobody asked, keep it to yourself and stop taking it out and rubbing it on random people in the subway FFS.

When I ask a person in public to see their genitalia, I get screamed at and/or threatened with arrest.

On the other hand, people are quite happy to whip out their religion and wave it around.

[AHunter3]

I have my own religion. It's not yours. It's not his or hers either. Mine is as valid as the religion of anyone else. If you're going to bring out Christianity as the reason for something-or-other to be considered favorably or unfavorably, I will reply with my own religion's take on the same, and I don't mind that you brought religion up. Just get used to the notion that yours isn't the only one.

[Jaglavak]

For about a year, I had the desk next to an evangelical bible thumper who maintained a relentless background preaching campaign at me as we worked. At first I ignored him, then I mocked him, and finally preached back at him. Eventually he got tripped up by his own logic and had to agree that he ought to respect my beliefs if he wanted me to respect his. Oddly enough we hit it off and got along well in spite of his philosophical antics.

[Rat Diva]

Agreed. I feel the same way.

Same. When we went to arrange my brother's Thing (none of us really knew what to call it :haw:) my bossy sister knew his wishes and made sure they were followed exactly. He was spiritual, and superstitious, but not religious so there was to be no clergy, no prayers.

My nosy aunt treated us all to lunch on Monday afternoon and I could hear Bossy Sister explaining to her that it was Late Brother's choice not to have a religious service, and Nosy Aunt didn't like it but seemed to get it.

The Thing was Monday night and was as pleasant as such a Thing can be; he had a lot of friends and a lot of out of town family managed to make it. My sister put together photo collages of him doing his thing, including a cardboard standup of him with a Las Vegas showgirl.

About 20 minutes before the end of the Thing Nosy Aunt announces, from the back of the room, "I think we should say one Our Father for Late Brother's soul."

There was a pause and an exchange of looks:

Bossy Sister, lapsed Catholic: :rigs:
Unbossy Sister, atheist: :shame:
Me, believes in god but thinks he's an asshole: :mad:

Other Brother, lapsed Catholic: :ohdear: "oh, crap, Bossy's gonna blow!"

Just fucking respect the wishes of the deceased, Aunt Nosy.

[Rat Diva]

I started thinking about this issue recently when Tina Turner died (ok, I know that seems to come from left field, but bear with me, ok?). She was a practicing Buddhist. In fact, she credited her survival on her belief, giving her the strength to leave Ike Turner w/a few pennies, the clothes on her back, the blood on her face and a gasoline credit card.

And that should be enough to label her as a stone-solid badass, because it's so fucking difficult and so fucking dangerous to leave an abusive spouse. She was an amazing singer and perfomer. I don't know why she can't be remembered for the things she accomplished here on earth without injecting a bunch of religious mumbo into it.

[wring]

And that should be enough to label her as a stone-solid badass, because it's so fucking difficult and so fucking dangerous to leave an abusive spouse. She was an amazing singer and perfomer. I don't know why she can't be remembered for the things she accomplished here on earth without injecting a bunch of religious mumbo into it.

exactly, or at the very least if you MUST insert religion into it, use HERS not yours.

god you guys are easy. this apparently isn't a bread vs. pizza debate, eh?

[thylacine]

I had a sign for a while, “your god can’t give you permission to ring my doorbell, it’s mine and I don’t”

Never worked but made it easy to just close the door on them without a word.*


*not true actually, how would I know who chose to walk away without hitting the button? Sorry

[thorny locust]

When we went to arrange my brother's Thing (none of us really knew what to call it : [ . . .]

The Thing was Monday night and was as pleasant as such a Thing can be; he had a lot of friends and a lot of out of town family managed to make it. My sister put together photo collages of him doing his thing



I rather like the idea of calling it a Thing.

However, in case you're interested, I have been to some similar Things that were called a Celebration of the Life of [fill in name]. These may or may not have religion involved -- and I was recently at one at which one of the speakers, who is a minister, made a very distinct point of everyone's beliefs or lack of them being important, not just those of her own church or of Christians in general.

That's the kind of minister who I can get on with.

Random people at the door I generally just tell "I consider religion to be a private matter." Insistent people I may shut down vehemently, or walk away from. I try to resist the temptation to unconvert them instead of them converting me, but have occasionally given in. I don't know that I've exactly had success at that, but I've gotten a couple of people to at least shut up on the subject.

[What Exit?]

My town has a nice waterfront walk. Last year some fringe christian group was bothering people trying to enjoy their walk.

I overreacted and started yelling at them.

They were back the next evening and that time I called the police on them. Does that make me a male Karen? They were white at least, so maybe not. So at least a dumbass, oh well. Stop godbothering people.

[JackieLikesVariety]

I'm in complete agreement with everyone here.

[wring]

My town has a nice waterfront walk. Last year some fringe christian group was bothering people trying to enjoy their walk.



I was in college back in the early 70's (that's 1970 to you youngfolk). during that time there were infestations of young Christians who would come up to absolute strangers and start conversations about God, Jesus etc. I got rather adept at avoidance. Once they approached me w/a Bible just as I exited the 'pit' (which was a large room where you stood in lines to either add or drop classes, you could - and I did- spend hours in there). they thrust the book at me and I walked by telling them "I can't read". Another time, one approached me and asked if I'd "seen the Lord today" I told 'em, "no, but I heard he was behind Berkey Hall, if you hurry you can catch up to Him". another time, I was in the lobby playing the Piano they had there. it happened to be a song from Jesus Christ Superstar. and a woman approached me telling me that she used to be 'like me, going to school', then the Lord came to her and told her how she should be living her life, and now, she "spread the word". I told her that the "lord" had come to me and told me that I should be a Lawyer, so I had to spend the next 6 years going to school to do that. She replied "heavy".

my favorite, though, came from my buddy Paul who was with our mutual buddy Dave. They were at Paul's dorm room, knock came at the door and a couple of guys in button down shirts were there, asking if they could pray w/ Paul and Dave. They said "sure, as long as you pray with us first, we belong to the order of the Wolf" then got on their hands and knees and started howling. Guys were never seen again.

[thylacine]

I was pretty stoned the day I came out with “look, we both know I’m going to hell so do you really need to make this bit awful too?”. I will admit I have reused the material.

[Wolf Larsen]

So, many years ago I was more of an asshole than I am today. Even more so back in college. One day one of my engineering buddies and I were walking on the campus and got attacked by a young woman from some fringe Asian flavored cult. She ran through her spiel including using her flip chart showing some tautologies. At the end she smiled winningly convinced she was going to get us to join.

We graded her. We gave her an A for enthusiasm, but only a C for knowledge of the material and an F for her ability to convince us of anything.

She started crying.

[wring]

We graded her. We gave her an A for enthusiasm, but only a C for knowledge of the material and an F for her ability to convince us of anything.

.
I did something similar once when I saw a kid throwing a temper tantrum at the store. Kid was on the floor kicking and pounding their fists and screaming. I rated him a 6, saying good use of the arms and legs, but his pitch was off or something. Kid looked up at me like I was nuts, but he stopped screaming. mother just grinned.

[Zeener Diode]

We graded her. We gave her an A for enthusiasm, but only a C for knowledge of the material and an F for her ability to convince us of anything.

.
I did something similar once when I saw a kid throwing a temper tantrum at the store. Kid was on the floor kicking and pounding their fists and screaming. I rated him a 6, saying good use of the arms and legs, but his pitch was off or something. Kid looked up at me like I was nuts, but he stopped screaming. mother just grinned.

There's an anecdotal tale of Howard Cosell seeing a man getting his ass kicked by a larger man, stepping up and ranking the brawlers (something about the smaller man being a southpaw and woefully undermatched), and stopping the fight.

[SmartAleq]

When I ask a person in public to see their genitalia, I get screamed at and/or threatened with arrest.

On the other hand, people are quite happy to whip out their religion and wave it around.

May it come to pass in my lifetime that the latter elicits the same reaction as the former. So mote it be! :confetti:

[Rat Diva]

I rather like the idea of calling it a Thing.

However, in case you're interested, I have been to some similar Things that were called a Celebration of the Life of [fill in name].

I suggested that we call it a Celebration of Life, but Bossy Sister didn't go for it. After 47 years you'd think I'd know better by now :tongue:

I was pretty stoned the day I came out with “look, we both know I’m going to hell so do you really need to make this bit awful too?”. I will admit I have reused the material.

Even though I'm not stoned, I like it and I'm stealing it.

There was one morning I was peacefully weeding my front flowerbeds, so I'm wearing my oldest clothes and a do-rag, sweating like a pig, covered in dirt, because I'm not Martha Fucking Stewart in her perfectly pressed linen blouse, straw sunhat, and designer gloves decorously plucking perfect fucking sprigs of herbs from my fucking immaculate raised beds, okay?

:cough:

...and a bunch of evangelical sorts come up to me, right on my front lawn. They're called sidewalks, people. I was using a tool called a Garden Bandit, which has a loop of stainless steel at the end instead of tines or a blade. It works well for chopping through the roots of weeds and breaking up the soil and you can get in around your good plants and whatnot with it.

Lead Evangelist Lady was immaculately primped, so I automatically hated her :haw: She said hello, and I said hello, and went back to my digging and chopping, throwing out weeds in the opposite direction of her pantyhose and strappy heels, in a NEPA summer, where "humid" is a four-letter word.

She asks if I'm familiar with Jesus. I reply that I don't practice anymore. She tries to get me to engage in a conversation about why not. I ignore her and keep chopping and yanking; she tries a few more times but I don't engage.

Silence. So now they're doing the "he who speaks first, loses" tactic but I'm a wizard at passive-aggression and just keep on weeding. She finally tells me to have a nice day ("thanks, you too!") and they all truck on over to my neighbor, who works third shift and isn't about to get out of bed and open his door to talk religion.

The worst were the couple of Mormon guys who actually tried to push past me into the house. I jammed my shoulder into the one in front's chest to push them back and slammed and locked the door.

This is why I don't answer the door anymore.

[Solfy]

The people applying their own religious framework to Tina's passing are applying the only framework they're familiar with. I doubt it would even occur to them that their beliefs might not be welcomed by the deceased. People who don't believe as they do simply don't compute to them except as targets for conversion or doomed to hell who must be prayed for. They are surrounded by like-minded people and have no reason to consider otherwise. That same framework teaches that if you care about people, you have a responsibility to share your beliefs for their own good. Leaving people alone to their own religion or lack thereof is casting them into the outer darkness.
I'm not excusing proselytizing, but I find it less annoying when considered more of an anthropological curiosity.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately with MD's good friend who has religious nutbags for parents. If they knew the Friend has a girlfriend I'm pretty sure they'd throw her out*, as they're completely intolerant of anything LGBTQ. For Pete's sake, Friend got in trouble for baking rainbow cookies with MD** years ago when they were just doing it to play around with food coloring and nothing more.

Here's the thing: they believe deep down in their hearts that gay people are doomed to hell for all eternity. To them, accepting and loving gay people is condoning mortal sin and basically allowing them to destroy their mortal soul. This is, of course, complete and utter bullshit, but they think their intolerance is the right thing to do to save people and nothing in the world will convince them otherwise. Any attempts to get them to open their minds or their hearts only makes them dig in harder. They do it out of the sickest most misguided version of "love."

There is no reasoning with people like that, the best we can do is avoid them. Heaven save us from the well-meaning.



*Friend knows she's always welcome at our house, but she's toughing out the next year and can't wait to escape to college
**I think it's hysterical that Friend's parents applaud MD as a good God-fearing hetero girl because that's apparently what they want to see. In reality MD is an awesome agnostic bisexual non-binary person. At least we agree that MD is cool.

[Rat Diva]

Here's the thing: they believe deep down in their hearts that gay people are doomed to hell for all eternity. To them, accepting and loving gay people is condoning mortal sin and basically allowing them to destroy their mortal soul. This is, of course, complete and utter bullshit, but they think their intolerance is the right thing to do to save people...

And that's just way more effort than I can muster up to care about anything, let alone what other people do with their swimsuit regions.

And thank you for giving friend a safe haven if needed. A lady from my knitting group's F to M transitioning grandson recently died by suicide, in no small part because of the attitudes of shitheads like friend's parents.