Controversy of expanding assisted suicide

[shakeandbake]

Canada is set to become one of the most liberal countries in the world for assisted suicide as they will allow it solely for mental disorders in March of next year link (https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/liberals-table-bill-delaying-assisted-dying-expansion-to-march-2024-1.6255613).

Do you think it's a good idea? A lot of people say that it's giving up on mentally ill people but many of them already cannot access services due to stigma, finances and those that can generally find the services are inadequate or downright ineffective (antidepressants, antipsychotics).

Belgium and the Netherlands have had it since the 2000s and the slippery slope that critics feared hasn't happened

[lil shit]

I’m not seeing any controversy, and as you pointed out that slippery slope ain’t that damn slippery. In fact there seem to be a lot of “slippery slopes” with remarkably good traction despite the lamentations of flip-flop wearing alarmist klutzes.

[SmartAleq]

I live in Oregon and I voted for assisted suicide twice. I am fully supportive of a person's right to judge their own quality of life and make any decisions they see fit regarding how it should go and how long they stick around.

[JackieLikesVariety]

I am fully supportive of a person's right to judge their own quality of life and make any decisions they see fit regarding how it should go and how long they stick around.

^ this

[thylacine]

Yup, I’m with them.

[Dragonlady]

Me, too. I don't think anyone has the right to decide if someone elses life is worth living.

[Solfy]

Drawing a distinction that people suffering from physical illness could ethically choose suicide but those suffering from mental illness could not says something about our society's view of mental illness.

People who decide to die by suicide aren't going to be dissuaded by legalities. It is more merciful to allow them as much dignity as possible and to mitigate the impact to those around them as much as possible.

[SmartAleq]

As a regularly suicidal person myself I can attest that having the option readily available and a pain free plan makes it easier to actually keep walking past the open windows. Our society is so weird about mental illness that we aren't supposed to even acknowledge it exists and getting help is still stigmatized by the majority. Admitting that it's okay to "give up" and end an untenable life that you can't get any help straightening out sucks but not as much as the way it is now, it's all sticks and no carrots. All punishment, no rehabilitation. All suffering but no treatment. That's no way to go on and maybe if enough people stroll into suicide booths society might collectively decide that people are worth helping and saving. I dunno.

[mjmlabs]

I've been in favor of "authorized" suicide (with safeguards, natch) pretty much forever, and there's one safeguard/treatment I'd like to see enacted: Not fewer than two (2) supervised psilocybin therapy sessions, over a span of not fewer than 28 days, should be [ETA: among the various possible] prerequisites for approval. Research dating back to the mid-20th century suggests quite strongly that A) some will no longer wish to end their lives, and B) those whose minds remain unchanged will still have their minds changed*, pretty much universally for the better.

*If you'll forgive the sloppy mixing of figurative & literal speech.

I'm also convinced that psilocybin and/or other entheogens should be a standard tool in hospice care.

[SmartAleq]

Have to agree on the sillycybin requirement--I shudder to think how fucked up I'd be if I hadn't been a fairly regular experimenter with hallucinogens back in the day. I credit my trips with having made me remarkably resistant to addiction--my dad's an alcoholic and my mom has been a tobacco addict basically her entire life so the addict genes are there but I've always been able to just walk away from drugs with nothing more serious than a headache and being a bit cranky. And we're talking some serious habituating drugs here, like I did a shitload of coke and meth back in the day and had some staggeringly liberal access to pain pills like Darvon, Percodan, Talwin, Vicodin and a bunch of others, basically with unlimited refills for YEARS. Also did a lotta drinking for a few years too. Always been able to just stop whenever I wanted to or needed to and these days I barely even smoke weed, just a couple hits in the evening to help with sleep and relaxation.

[JackieLikesVariety]

I'm also convinced that psilocybin and/or other entheogens should be a standard tool in hospice care.

yes, for depression, PTSD, all kinds of stuff. prohibition is unconscionable.

[thorny locust]

I'm certainly in favor of having it available, but am opposed to requiring anybody to take psilocybin (or any other drug) as a requirement, including as a requirement for aid in dying. People vary so much in their reactions to any drug that saying 'you must take this!' strikes me as a very bad idea.

[JackieLikesVariety]

he said "a standard tool", not that it is required.

another ETA: Thorny, I think we are in agreement as I would be very much against anyone being required to take pretty much anything, drug wise.

[SmartAleq]

Besides, what's the worst that could happen, it makes you kill yourself? Oh wait... :rebo:

[thorny locust]

he said "a standard tool", not that it is required.

another ETA: Thorny, I think we are in agreement as I would be very much against anyone being required to take pretty much anything, drug wise.

mjmlabs wants it required -- twice yet, never mind if the person reacted terribly to the first time -- in order to get access to assisted suicide.

SmartAleq said they agree with that requirement.

ETA: just to confirm, I have no problem with its being allowed; or with its being recommended once the patient's known individual circumstances have been considered. But 'you must do this' seems to me both to be unreasonable, and to increase the chances of the patient's deciding to just jump in front of a truck instead (with awful results for the truck driver, and quite possibly undesired results for the jumper.)

[SmartAleq]

How about "strongly recommended," and doesn't have to be full fledged trip level, microdosing has shown a ton of promise for relieving depression and allowing people to step back from mental pain to more dispassionately assess their own symptoms, causes and results. And the strength of the recommend, by the very nature of mental illness, needs to be close to mandatory in order to get people to do something positive about their own conditions. Since the only actual access to the world that we have is the interpretation our brains give to stimuli gathered up by our bodies, we are very adamant that OUR mental outlook is, in fact, absolutely correct and incontrovertible in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Since hallucinogens shake up that implacable belief in our own mental "realness" they're a whizbang shortcut to getting people to the point where they can acknowledge that what their brain is telling them is, in fact, disordered as fuck. And you have to get to that place in order to be able to start fixing shit. If someone is already to the point of seeking assisted suicide seems to me that a couple Hail Mary's are perfectly in order.

[Detroit Hoser]

Once upon a time twenty years ago I was suffering with major depression with psychosis (which doesn't mean I was hearing voices, it means I was severely depressed and becoming paranoid.) I told my therapist that suicide was inevitable because it all made so much sense, something she would never be able to understand because she wasn't me. While this is true, I was delusional and she had me committed.

It turns out I did not, in fact, kill myself. But like Smartie, I will always have it in my back pocket as a choice. MY choice, nobody else's.

[mjmlabs]

Yeah, I'mma hafta plead guilty to sloppy hyperbole there. (I was pretty high at the time, although that's no excuse especially given how high I am right now.)

Revise that "prerequisite" phrasing to "one of several paths to approval, and an expedited one at that," and that's wording I'll stand behind. Given that the current pathways in most of the places with such involve months of sessions with multiple psych professionals, two daylong sessions a month apart expedited by lab-grade entheogens seems like the express lane. Fortunately, research indicates that more spiritu-emotional growth can occur in a well-guided session or two than in years of "traditional" talk therapies.

[JackieLikesVariety]

Yeah, I'mma hafta plead guilty to sloppy hyperbole there. (I was pretty high at the time, although that's no excuse especially given how high I am right now.)


I'm so high I couldn't finish reading your post but I was liking it when I had to rest.

:cookiemonster:

[stormie]

I want this, and salute Canada.

But then I'm pro-death and find US/CA laws + health care system created the worst experience of my life, out of a moderately sized basket. Veterinarians are better at it.

[Inna Minnit]

I live in Oregon and I voted for assisted suicide twice. I am fully supportive of a person's right to judge their own quality of life and make any decisions they see fit regarding how it should go and how long they stick around. And yet, if they say they want to end their lives, it gets a three day stay at a psych ward. The law makes no sense.

[SmartAleq]

A lot depends on their demeanor and behavior though--I've been hospitalized after an attempt at suicide and when I was able to explain the circumstances that led up to it and that for the moment I was not actively planning a repeat performance they cut me loose. It's not an exact science, but then again a lot of medicine is similar and a treatment solution one doctor might aggressively pursue could be considered ill advised or useless to another. Nothing's perfect but I think we really should be having more of a dialogue on the subject and I also think that random suicide attempts would be much less prevalent with a social safety net and support for the struggling. :shrug: