Shocking conversation regarding freedom with a friend...

[NAF1138]

I know a lot of Republicans because I work in the insurance industry. Several have become good friends.

None of my friends are MAGA types, but... You know. They make excuses.

So I was speaking with my friend Chris this morning and he said to me "hey, I didn't vote for Trump but now that he's in office, he seems to be doing a lot of good things. Why are liberals all upset about the corruption Elon and DOGE are rooting out? Don't they want to get rid of the corruption?"

So. This wasn't even the shocking bit, but just so you know where he is coming from. I bring up unconstitutional actions and how I don't want to trade our democracy for any form of efficiency. That this never ends well when people give up their freedom it's never temporary

To which he responded, in total seriousness

"Sometimes you need to put someone in charge who is willing to say fuck it, and just gets things done because things need to be done. Regardless of the beuracracy." When I pointed out that he was in favor of dictatorship, and how would he get his freedom back once he gave it up he said

"We aren't free anyway. If you think you are free you are lying to yourself. What do we give up if we give Trump absolute power for a few years? We can't give up freedom we don't have"

:jaw:

Is this actually a conservative talking point right now?

Like, what the hell?

[Rat Diva]

I guess they have to justify it to themselves somehow. Since they're meekly dropping their drawers and grabbing their ankles, they better not come whining to me when Trump's toerags come along and spank them so hard their pelvises turn to bonemeal.

[Sputnik]

It’s called drinking the kool aid. Fox News keeps them focused on how lucky they are and how great the future will be. Talking to them is futile at this time.

[NAF1138]

I mostly avoid talking about politics with conservatives, but as this person specifically voted for Biden because he couldn't stand Trump I thought it was safe!

Shows me.

[howietee]

"Sometimes you need to put someone in charge who is willing to say fuck it, and just gets things done because things need to be done. Regardless of the beuracracy." When I pointed out that he was in favor of dictatorship, and how would he get his freedom back once he gave it up he said

Ah yes, the appeal of the authoritarian's promised efficiency.

[Solfy]

Consider also that conservative rhetoric for my whole lifetime has been about how bloated and ineffective the government is.
For some mysterious reason large defense contracts are never part of that bloat. Just handouts and entitlements. Like supplemental nutrition for (lazy) children and healthcare for the (undeserving) elderly.
Naturally the solution is more privatization, because capitalism always does what’s best for people before profits.

[Diamonds02]

Your buddy has been listening to too much Joe Rogan!




And without any critical thought.

[NAF1138]

You know I would believe that on both points.

He's a good guy (no, really) but he isn't the brightest bulb. I have not ever listened to Joe Rogan, but my friend is a big fan of frog based psychedelics... Which the only other person I know who is into that stuff is also a Joe Rogan guy.

[Sputnik]

The mythology of the time. Much like Germany in the late 30s. The government is doing what’s right for us, and they will make everything great again. One man with the power to fix everything. One man who believes he answers to no one. Project 2025 is scary, as is MAGA.

[Jaglavak]

People who subscribe to these ideas are seriously detached from reality. Starting with the idea that its only for a limited time. They tend to view authoritarian governments through a rosy lense because they have no clue what life is really like in those countries. Uyghurs in China being randomly imprisoned and beaten with chains by the tens of thousands. Upwards of 1/3 of a million Russian men drafted and butchered in a pointless war and any who complain get sent to Siberia. Protesters kidnapped, tortured, and butchered in countries around the world.

I would agree that there is some serious government bloat and overreach in the US that needs to be trimmed back. But handing unchecked power to an unbalanced dimwitted sociopath is the dumbest thing to do about it. These monkeys think government is a game show where they are always safely in the audience with a voting button. People who get their news where lies equal facts won't wake up until something bad happens to them or their family. And then they are going to be squealing the loudest when they find out the old voting button doesn't work so good anymore.

[thorny locust]

"There's too much government so let's have a totalitarian government" is not an argument that makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.

But I don't suppose the people who are making it think of it in those terms.

[BrickaBracka]

Some people are really bad at thinking. They draw the wrong conclusions from obvious information and are unable to consider potential outcomes that they have not personally experienced. Hypotheticals just do not compute for them.

Other people refuse to accept information that doesn't conform to their existing ideas because it threatens their ego.

Some people are both.

This person is both.

[howietee]

Consider also that conservative rhetoric for my whole lifetime has been about how bloated and ineffective the government is.
For some mysterious reason large defense contracts are never part of that bloat. Just handouts and entitlements. Like supplemental nutrition for (lazy) children and healthcare for the (undeserving) elderly.
Naturally the solution is more privatization, because capitalism always does what’s best for people before profits.

Nailed it.

I think NAF's friend, like many people in the US, are biased toward corporate thinking. MAGA/Musk are trying to run the American government as if it were a business, which is something that many people immediately recognize, and it's an idea they may even subscribe to on some level. The businesses we work for do it. Local governments sometimes have to shutter or severely cut entire agencies or offices. So in their minds, what's the big deal with DOGE?

[NAF1138]

Consider also that conservative rhetoric for my whole lifetime has been about how bloated and ineffective the government is.
For some mysterious reason large defense contracts are never part of that bloat. Just handouts and entitlements. Like supplemental nutrition for (lazy) children and healthcare for the (undeserving) elderly.
Naturally the solution is more privatization, because capitalism always does what’s best for people before profits.

Nailed it.

I think NAF's friend, like many people in the US, are biased toward corporate thinking. MAGA/Musk are trying to run the American government as if it were a business, which is something that many people immediately recognize, and it's an idea they may even subscribe to on some level. The businesses we work for do it. Local governments sometimes have to shutter or severely cut entire agencies or offices. So in their minds, what's the big deal with DOGE?

Yes! In fact he has said something along those lines a few times. Something like "It's great that we finally have a bunch of successful business men who have run a bunch of successful companies coming in to fix the problems and corruption in the system" (not an actual quote)

This sounds stupid to me, but I can sort of understand this reasoning if I squint. He also genuinely seems to believe that they will act in his best interest because they are already rich so why would they be corrupt?

Which is also... Hopelessly naive?

[JackieLikesVariety]

"There's too much government so let's have a totalitarian government" is not an argument that makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.

But I don't suppose the people who are making it think of it in those terms.

they are absolutely not but I wish they would/could. feels like we've had the perfect storm of bad things coming together (how long have our public school systems been floundering? when did Rupert Murdoch start GOP TV?) and now, here we are.

[Solfy]

This sounds stupid to me, but I can sort of understand this reasoning if I squint. He also genuinely seems to believe that they will act in his best interest because they are already rich so why would they be corrupt?

Exactly. The government isn't the only entity capable of propaganda.
The notion that capitalism is best for society is something Americans are steeped in from day one. It goes hand-in-hand with our cultural fabric of rugged individualism, of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, of everyone being one really hard-working day and/or smart decision away from being the next Jeff Bezos.

Material wealth = success. Wealthy business people are successful. Ergo they must have gotten there solely because they're so smart and hard working. Not because they were born to wealth, or into a system primed to allow them to succeed, or were at the right place at the right time, or had the financial means to game the system to their favor.

In America, poor people are stupid and lazy and rich people are smart and hard working.

The government, in contrast, exists only to benefit those poor lazy people and put roadblocks in the way of the smart rich people. It siphons off the money they earned to put it in the hands of those who can't be bothered to earn for themselves. Government = lazy and bad.


The dichotomy between democrat/republican is merely a distraction to keep people from noticing the underlying class war.

[Sputnik]

We all know the Donald talks out of his butt, but apparently many Americans don’t realize that. It seems he promised to bring down inflation, grocery prices as well as returning petrol prices to pre pandemic levels. He’s been in office a month now, and of course, nothing has come down. His favoribility ratings (poll numbers) are now starting to move in the wrong way because he’s not keeping his promise. But they gave him a whole month to fix everything. Lame duck politics is beyond the average American.

[Solfy]

He had four fucking years previously to bring back the coal and steel industries, defeat Isis, and replace the horrors of the affordable care act with a much better health care system.

I have no faith that anyone who voted for him this time has two brain cells to rub together. Either they’re malicious or garden variety stoopid.

[JackieLikesVariety]

or both, and let's not forget MAL-informed.

[Solfy]

I would have bought “mal-informed” the first time around. This time people had no excuse for believing any of the shit they lapped up starving basset hounds at an all you can eat gravy fountain.

Sorry if I’m cranky. Mostly been trying to avoid the news because it just makes me angry and hopeless but it’s been a long week and I am weak. I should go drink and stream something distracting.

[howietee]

He also genuinely seems to believe that they will act in his best interest because they are already rich so why would they be corrupt?

Which is also... Hopelessly naive?

He assumes that rich and powerful people don't want to be even richer and more powerful.

Naive, indeed.

[Zeener Diode]

or both, and let's not forget MAL-informed.

I believe a lot of it has to do with the cycle of discontentment that washes over voters every four years. No one wants to think back beyond than the current administration, and the only thing that matters is punishing the sitting prez for their lot in life.

I'm curious as to how much longer this administration is going to keep bulldozing through the bureaucracy, throwing all sorts of shit against the wall just to see what sticks.

[Sputnik]

I wonder the same thing. How much longer until sanity is restored? It’s as if everyone in Washington has buried their head in the sand.

[howietee]

I wonder the same thing. How much longer until sanity is restored? It’s as if everyone in Washington has buried their head in the sand.

Democrats are just so far behind when it comes to waging the information war and the procedural war. Hard to believe this is the party of the Chicago machine, Bubba Clinton, and LBJ. They're like a team with a wimpy defensive line. They know the MAGA party is gonna run the ball up the middle, and they just can't stop 'em.

[၍ᙡᗩᙢᙢᙦᖇᗠᗩᙢᒞ]

In addition to many millions of Americans who are just plain stupid, there are millions more who are very smart in their own fields but have imbecilic understanding of politics. As of now Trump's approval rating is higher than it was 2017-2019. Congress isn't so stupid, but Trump is eking out 51% votes in Congress as R's vote along because they are literally faced with death threats if they don't.

The damage Trump and Musk are doing to the U.S. -- and therefore to the entire world given U.S. importance -- will be irreparable. The greatest tragedy of my lifetime is unfolding.

[BrickaBracka]

Considering how little faith I put in the accuracy of news media, both for incompetence of that media and for complicity in propaganda ...

I don't trust opinion polls one bit.

The breakdown in the trust of the 4th estate is complete. Nation's been cooked by an asshole with a blowtorch. Here we are quibbling over which bits are the least burnt.

[Zeener Diode]

The greatest tragedy of my lifetime is unfolding.

Part of me thinks, yeah, we will survive this, we survived the first term. But one thing that ensured the felon's loss was Covid-19 and the lockdown. Will it take another global pandemic to oust this clown and his posse for good? Or just a national event, say, a recession that lasts beyond 2026? All economic signs are pointing in that direction. Skyrocketing prices, shrinkflation and high unemployment, with images of donny on the links and even diehard MAGAS will see the emperor has no clothes.

[stormie]

He's a good guy (no, really) but he isn't the brightest bulb. Many of my relatives are generally good people but not so good at critical thinking.

[Sputnik]

I’m more in camp that thinks Elon is the greater threat now. Elon enjoys destroying more than building. Trump can be manipulated easily by elon and Trumpy is too dumb to know.

[howietee]

In addition to many millions of Americans who are just plain stupid, there are millions more who are very smart in their own fields but have imbecilic understanding of politics. As of now Trump's approval rating is higher than it was 2017-2019. Congress isn't so stupid, but Trump is eking out 51% votes in Congress as R's vote along because they are literally faced with death threats if they don't.

The damage Trump and Musk are doing to the U.S. -- and therefore to the entire world given U.S. importance -- will be irreparable. The greatest tragedy of my lifetime is unfolding.

As I told a colleague a long time ago, America is a skilled society, but it's not necessarily an educated society, and I'm sorry, if you want the kinds of good things that we enjoy and take for granted today, courtesy of liberal democracy, you need a society of educated voters more than skilled voters. Some of our MBAs and MSs in Computer Science are just as responsible for running our democracy over the cliff Thelma and Louise style as the guy who runs around some forest pretending to be a soldier in the Republic of Virginia militia or whatever.

[Jaglavak]

Trump can be manipulated easily by elon and Trumpy is too dumb to know.

Naw, Elon is being used to get the stinky part done and then under the bus he goes, just like everyone else the shitgibbon uses.

[thorny locust]

Each of them thinks they're using the other.

And some other people think they're using them both.

They'll eat each other eventually; but they'll do way too much damage by then.

[SaintCad]

I think this was a conservative talking point before MAGA. All my life, pro-law-and-order people took offense when someone dared to stand on their civil rights against searches or to remain silent because you are expected (and for them required) to assist the police even when they are investigating YOU. So yeah, the "We love the Constitution unless inconvenient." is an old trope.