What Goes Through The Mind of a Date Rapist?

[bengangmo]

Pretty much what the title says -

I am 35, I have partied, know lots of guys that cheat on their partners without remorse etc etc. I have NEVER met anyone who I have thought - "that guy would take sex whether the woman wants it or not".

For me, easily half the fun of sex is in "pleasing" the woman - if she's not into it, I would much rather employ the services of Mrs Palmer and some of her daughters..

So what exactly goes on in the mind of a date rapist? Does he "believe" she wants it? Does he not read the cues well? Does he say to himself, she doesn't want to fuck me, but screw it - I'm going to get my jollies anyway?

If there was anyway to prove beyond a doubt (yes I know that currently it's impossible) that the date rapist truely believed the sex was consensual (even when the lady said no) should he be considered to have committed a crime?

And is this really a different class of rapist to the predator that that hides in the park and forces himself on women at knifepoint, or am I just deluding myself?

I will just share one expereince of my own, that some may consider date rape. I was probably around 20, we had a party at our flat - lots of people came round. One buzzed (but not totally trashed) lady came onto me and invited me into my room - natural things ensued. Later in the night she was crying with regret. At the time it never occured to me that she wasn't "into" it - I (don't think) I pressured her in anyway, yet some may / would take the "incapable of consent route" - if she regretted enough to be in tears, could I be considered to have raped her? If it was taken to court, what would my chances be like? (FTR - I was shone stold cober)

[Nirvana]

I have no answers to your question since I am female. But I often wonder if the term "date-rape" is sometimes (not always, I do realize it is a genuine crime) used as an excuse by some women to justify their own regrettable choices. I had a friend/acquaintence back in college who claimed to have been date-raped by a guy. "Did you scream?" I asked. "Did you scratch him, yell for help, hit him, etc". The answer to all questions was NO. But I told him "no" and he proceeded anyway. Hmmm, maybe it was just a misunderstanding....maybe he just thought her mild verbal resistance was part of the game. The Kobe Bryant case triggered this same hunch in me. I realize date rape is a real crime, but I do think the term is used rather loosely by some.

[WednesdayAddams]

Thank you for getting that out of the way the first post so we can quickly dispense with it (http://www.promotetruth.org/datingviolence/index.htm). "No, I do not want to have sex. Stop." Yes that is very unclear.

[Kerryoke]

I'm pretty sure if someone says "No" and you have sex with them anyway, that is, in fact, rape. "Maybe it's a misunderstanding" seems like a pretty good answer to bengangmo's question, though.

[Uthrecht]

Well, I mean come on. Neither parter is just there to bang away. If one says, "hang on", or "no", or "stop", or "you fucking pervert, get that diseased thing away from me" (not that I'd know), the other should stop and say something along the lines of, "hey, what's up?" Even if they follow up with, "listen you jackass, when you figure out what you want, I'll be around". Your partner could be asking to stop for anything from them lying on an old shoe, the kitchen counter is too cold, or they just realized you're a prick. No matter what, it's important to stop and figure out what the problem is before you proceed.

[Uthrecht]

ETA: On review, it seems like I'm answering the more immediate posts rather than the OP. To tie them together, my point is that you get into non-consensual territory when you plow ahead (yup) over top of any reservations, statements, discomforts that your partner has (either partner). When you stop respecting how your partner is doing, you're in dangerous waters. It's the mindset itself, in my opinion, that sets the stage.

(missed the edit window)

[Falcon]

So what exactly goes on in the mind of a date rapist? Does he "believe" she wants it? Does he not read the cues well? Does he say to himself, she doesn't want to fuck me, but screw it - I'm going to get my jollies anyway?

A friend once told me she had been date raped. She said they'd had dinner at her place, and all of a sudden the guy informed her that they were going to the bedroom to have sex. He said she could either agree and he wouldn't hurt her, or she could fight and he would harm her and have sex with her anyway.

So there was no doubt on either side it was rape. He simply didn't give a shit, and that's how he liked it. She was too afraid to fight, so she didn't, and as I remember, I don't think she even reported it. (It happened years before I knew her, or I would have called the cops with her.)

[FirstAndMain]

if she regretted enough to be in tears, could I be considered to have raped her?

If she had said "stop" or "I've changed my mind" or signaled in some way that she didn't want to continue, would you have stopped? At any time, was there anything to indicate that she had withdrawn her consent? At all times, was she mentally and physically capable of giving or withdrawing her consent?

Post-coital regret from someone who had a couple of drinks doesn't equal rape.

[Solfy]

I had a friend in college who was date raped, only she didn't think it was rape at the time, she was just very upset.
They had gone out, were back at his place, necking, petting, etc. She said she didn't want to have sex. He tried to change her mind. She flat out said NO. He told her, "Don't be such a baby," forced her legs open, and had his way.
She felt that she sort of deserved what happened since she let things get that far. Maybe he thought so, too.

The rest of us (she confided to a small group of friends later of feeling very much used) told her that foced sex after one person says no is very much rape, no matter what precluded the situation. We did everything we could to support her getting away from the situation (she continued going out with the winner of a guy for a while). Which sadly wasn't much. Mostly all we could do was listen. And seethe.

[cowgirl]

He assumes that she's into it because she hasn't said no.

Even assuming the best intentions on his part, once proceedings have begun, it can be very difficult for her to stop him and say "no." It will always be socially awkward (at minimum). I have experienced this even from partners with whom I have a great relationship - if I stop him after he's gotten going, he will be disappointed and frustrated, confused, and possibly embarrassed.

Like most women I have been conditioned to want to please my partner, not disappoint and frustrate and confuse and embarrass him. Also, it seems like some men have been conditioned to understand rejection of their advances as a condemnation of their manhood. At the very best of times (and telling your partner to back off and cool down is not one of these times), it is a challenge to have a level headed discussion about differing sexual appetites where all parties feel safe and respected. It takes strong people in a good relationship to pull this off without any hurt feelings. Many women find it easier to just go along with it and have the discussion later.

It might be physically difficult - even if he has only the best intentions, if he's already not paying attention to what she wants, she will have to catch his attention ("excuse me, please take your mouth off my breast so I can talk to you and tell you that I am not up for this right now") to let him know, which can be very awkward and appear more harsh than intended.

If he does not have the best intentions, it can be physically dangerous.

I have not been date raped but I have had sex that I would rather not have had, because it was easier to go along with it and avoid hurting his feelings / feeling guilty or defensive / having an argument / whatever. In only one case would I say it came close to date rape, and that happened because it was just easier on every level to go along with it than to stop it (which would have required physically stopping a man from touching me and then having a very long and unpleasant discussion / argument about why I didn't want to, because my saying no violated his expectation - I felt his expectation to be unreasonable, but we didn't get the chance to discuss that before it was too late.)

Basically, some men are not accustomed to seeking enthusiastic consent from their female partners. This might be because they have experience with women who show their consent by being quiet and allowing him to do what he wants. It might be because they are not accustomed to women who really actively enthusiastically consent, so the absence of this enthusiasm doesn't tell them anything. It might be because they don't care what kind of response they get from their partners.

[Uthrecht]

You have excellent points, cowgirl.

All I can add to what I said before, in response to it, is to any one of either gender that might feel that way: don't settle.

ETA: I couldn't come up with anything cogent to add to that on writing, but let me append now. I'm not saying that sex has to be perfect every time or you stop. As cowgirl said, there are times when you go along to get along. Sure. But when you've passed giving the partner a good time into having a bad time, you say stop, and try to fix that, up to and including stopping the encounter. If you don't think you can do that with your partner, you don't go there, and possibly reexamine your relationship. Seriously. I don't care if I'm near climax, if my partner says stop, I stop. That's how this works.

[cowgirl]

I don't care if I'm near climax, if my partner says stop, I stop. That's how this works.

Most men I know are like that (or, at least, I like to believe that they are).

Now put yourself in the position of a woman in such a situation. You thought that he respected you and that you understood each other, but now he's doing stuff that makes you uncomfortable and he doesn't seem aware that you're not into it. There's a chance that he'll stop when requested with no ill feelings. However, there's also a chance that he'll stop but that an unpleasant situation will ensue, and there's a chance that he won't stop and will hurt you if you try to make him.

How do you know which kind of guy he is? If he's already proceeding without your enthusiastic consent, you might be questioning what you thought you understood about him and your relationship.

[Uthrecht]

Well, that's my point. First, if most men are like that, when the woman is uncomfortable and says something, done and done. Second, if (either gender), you're not sure how your partner will respond to you saying stop in an intimite setting, you need to clarify that. I mean, if this is in the back of your head, you need to find a way to get that squared away beforehand. Either take longer to get to know the person, or have a full conversation about it, establish safe words, whatever you need.

[Falcon]

How do you know which kind of guy he is? If he's already proceeding without your enthusiastic consent, you might be questioning what you thought you understood about him and your relationship.

You get a good idea of what kind of guy he is by having lots of communication before ever having sex. Communication about lots of things, not just sex itself. How does he treat you generally? And then lots of communication about sex before you go that far.

Any guy I ever went out with who treated me poorly was making me uncomfortable long before there was any foreplay, let alone sex. When I was young, I minimized and dismissed that. As a result, I learned some things the hard way. Ended up in a really icky (but short-lived) relationship and was a lot more careful about who I was with next.

The next guy was every bit as sweet and wonderful about sex as he'd been about every other aspect of our relationship in the two months we were together before having sex. Once we did have sex, he was exactly as Uthrecht talks about--he once stopped right before climax when I started hurting and adjusting wasn't going to help. I didn't have to worry about hurting his feelings, and it wasn't any big deal or scene. I simply asked him to stop, and he did, immediately. I told him why I'd asked him to stop and told him how wonderful and sweet he was, and we cuddled. I expect nothing less, but it takes two people being willing to be open with each other to have that.

I realize a lot of people have sex very quickly these days (geez, I'm sounding old here). But holding off for a while gives you a much better chance to get to know someone and to establish communication. By the time you have sex, there should be no surprises of the unpleasant sort. And that goes both ways...for women worried about what the man will be like, and for men who are worried that a woman might say yes, regret it later, and they'll feel bad about it. If you've already established a relationship that involves talking with each other, these miscommunications are less likely to occur.

[mozg]

I simply asked him to stop, and he did, immediately. I told him why I'd asked him to stop and told him how wonderful and sweet he was, and we cuddled. I expect nothing less, but it takes two people being willing to be open with each other to have that.

I understand all these words but I have difficulty understanding how this works. I once did not notice that I had dislocated my knee until after the orgasms were over, and I actually started feeling the pain. I can't say as I'd be in the mood to cuddle anyone if they were telling me to stop right at that point.

If you've already established a relationship that involves talking with each other, these miscommunications are less likely to occur.

Not everyone finds relationships necessary before there can be sex. Some of us don't even always find them to be preferable.

[Falcon]

I understand all these words but I have difficulty understanding how this works. I once did not notice that I had dislocated my knee until after the orgasms were over, and I actually started feeling the pain. I can't say as I'd be in the mood to cuddle anyone if they were telling me to stop right at that point.

Not everyone finds relationships necessary before there can be sex. Some of us don't even always find them to be preferable.

Whatever works for you, Mozg. I was specifically addressing Cowgirl's concerns (and anyone else who feels similarly), and offering my perspective. It's all about finding who you're compatible with, right? I'll send the rougher guys your way. ;)

[mozg]

I'll send the rougher guys your way.

Thanks. Not that I always like it rough, I just... I know if I was about to orgasm and someone asked me to stop, I don't know if I would hear them let alone be able to.

[What Exit?]

I don't know the statistics, but isn't date rate most common among teens and college age kids that are partying?

I think a lot of date rape is already horny men and boys drunk or high that misread flirting for an invitation. It then turns ugly as the male is not thinking properly for two reasons and the female is not necessarily thinking rationally either.

[cowgirl]

I was specifically addressing Cowgirl's concerns (and anyone else who feels similarly), and offering my perspective. It's all about finding who you're compatible with, right? I'll send the rougher guys your way. ;)

I appreciate your perspective, but I think you have misunderstood my intention in posting, which was not to seek advice on how to reduce my own likelihood of getting date raped, but to help folks understand why a date rape might happen.

Your words are great advice for anyone contemplating how they might avoid date rape in the future, but would not be comforting (and in fact may resemble victim-blaming) for a woman who had experienced it.

[Falcon]

Thanks. Not that I always like it rough, I just... I know if I was about to orgasm and someone asked me to stop, I don't know if I would hear them let alone be able to.

Yeah, and that's exactly the kind of thing I need to know about a partner and that they need to know about me. I can end up in pain, and if we can't work around that together in a way that works for both of us, then we shouldn't have sex together. Wouldn't be fair to either of us.

[mozg]

I don't know the statistics, but isn't date rate most common among teens and college age kids that are partying?

I think a lot of date rape is already horny men and boys drunk or high that misread flirting for an invitation. It then turns ugly as the male is not thinking properly for two reasons and the female is not necessarily thinking rationally either.

How much of it do you think is naive (or not so naive) girls who take a guy back to their bedroom after drinking and partying all night and don't know (either truthfully or not) that such a thing very, very often is leading to sex?

[What Exit?]

How much of it do you think is naive (or not so naive) girls who take a guy back to their bedroom after drinking and partying all night and don't know (either truthfully or not) that such a thing very, very often is leading to sex?
I don't know but I can see a disconnect, I can well remember being a 17 to 22 year old and I think most boys that age would think it was going to be more than talking. I can also see where a girl likes the guy and wants to hang out in a quieter place but not have sex or have the guy grope her.

[Helen's Eidolon]

How much of it do you think is naive (or not so naive) girls who take a guy back to their bedroom after drinking and partying all night and don't know (either truthfully or not) that such a thing very, very often is leading to sex?

I have no answer to the OP, although I'm interested in the answers.

This, however, I don't know how to take. Do you mean that going to a bedroom after drinking and partying necessarily implies sex will ensue?

[bengangmo]

If she had said "stop" or "I've changed my mind" or signaled in some way that she didn't want to continue, would you have stopped? .

ABSOLUTELY

At any time, was there anything to indicate that she had withdrawn her consent? At all times, was she mentally and physically capable of giving or withdrawing her consent?
NO and YES (at least I thought so)

[Fenris]

My personal feeling is that it would be a good idea to work to remove the concept of "date rape"--there's "rape", period. If someone says "No" and the sex doesn't stop, it's rape.

While the term was coined with the best of intentions, I feel like it marginalizes the severity of the crime. Rape in a car isn't "car rape". It's just "rape". It's too serious a crime to put modifiers on. The fact that someone was on a date is as irrelevant as how they were dressed or what they ate for dinner.

ETA: I notice that MarissaW's link uses the phrasing "rape on a date" which I really think is a more effective and blunt term for the crime.

[bengangmo]

My personal feeling is that it would be a good idea to work to remove the concept of "date rape"--there's "rape", period. If someone says "No" and the sex doesn't stop, it's rape.

While the term was coined with the best of intentions, I feel like it marginalizes the severity of the crime. Rape in a car isn't "car rape". It's just "rape". It's too serious a crime to put modifiers on. The fact that someone was on a date is as irrelevant as how they were dressed or what they ate for dinner.

ETA: I notice that MarissaW's link uses the phrasing "rape on a date" which I really think is a more effective and blunt term for the crime.


This starts to go more towards what I would like to explore - is date rape the equivalent of rape?

I would suspect that many (most?) guys that get accused of date rape quite genuinely thought the lady consented. And not in the "she was asking for it" consent - but real and genuine consent.

Should this crime (and yes it is a crime) be treated the same as a violent, pick a victim at random, get off on the power trip rape?

If you look towards murder, there are distinctions drawn depending on the motivations of the offender. There is first and second degree murder, manslaughter, reckless endangerment, criminal negligence etc depending upon the specific circumstances.

For rape - should we explore more classifications? Notwithstanding that we already have sexual assault etc etc.

Part of my motivation is that I often feel there is a lot of hysteria surrounding accusations of rape / sexual assault. Some of it fair, some of it not. I feel that there is a bit of an industry surrounding "victimhood", that makes victims of people that don't need to be victims.

The other day for example, I read a report in my local paper that claimed that 33% of secondary and poly students had been sexually assaulted...their definition of "assault" though included the perception that a guy had leered at them.

[WednesdayAddams]

Actually more often than not the victims feel shame and guilt that they brought the rape on themselves. This link (http://www.aaets.org/article13.htm) shows some interesting statistics:

Prevalence

* One in four women surveyed was victim of rape or attempted rape.
* An additional one in four women surveyed was touched sexually against her will or was victim of sexual coercion.
* 84 percent of those raped knew their attacker.
* 57 percent of those rapes happened while on dates.
* One in twelve male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definitions of rape or attempted rape.
* 84 percent of those men who committed rape said that what they did was definitely not rape.
* Sixteen percent of the male students who committed rape and ten percent of those who attempted a rape took part in episodes involving more than one attacker.

The statistics on false report of rape is actually about 3% nationally (Cite (http://www.azrapeprevention.org/agency_updates/2004/07-SACASA.pdf)). A very detailed and interesting thread on the Dope some time back went over all the statistics. One of the points made was that a man who would never perform rape cannot conceive of rape as a crime of control and violence because it is something they would not do. I think you are having a very difficult time reconciling what you think are sexual feelings as compared to what other men do as a form of control.

Date rape is not usually falsely reported. The majority of rapes are performed by an acquaintance of the victim. At the time of that report it was estimated that only 5% of rapes are reported to the police.

This is not about a "culture of victimhood." It is about a culture of shame and entitlement. Women who are raped "have it coming." The vast majority of the population blames the victim. As apparently do you.

[bengangmo]

Actually more often than not the victims feel shame and guilt that they brought the rape on themselves. This link (http://www.aaets.org/article13.htm) shows some interesting statistics:



The statistics on false report of rape is actually about 3% nationally (Cite (http://www.azrapeprevention.org/agency_updates/2004/07-SACASA.pdf)). A very detailed and interesting thread on the Dope some time back went over all the statistics. One of the points made was that a man who would never perform rape cannot conceive of rape as a crime of control and violence because it is something they would not do. I think you are having a very difficult time reconciling what you think are sexual feelings as compared to what other men do as a form of control.

Date rape is not usually falsely reported. The majority of rapes are performed by an acquaintance of the victim. At the time of that report it was estimated that only 5% of rapes are reported to the police.

This is not about a "culture of victimhood." It is about a culture of shame and entitlement. Women who are raped "have it coming." The vast majority of the population blames the victim. As apparently do you.


Hold on a second. I never blame the woman. I never said that. I would however like to draw a distinction in intent.

But also, something doesn't quite seem to add up in the stats you provided.

Taking a sample size of 1000 men, and 1000 women.

250 women have been raped (25%) by 83 Men (1 in 12, let's be generous and include attempted rape also)

Of those 83 men, 70 did it once (84% - your stats say 16% more than one instance)

This means that 13 men committed 180 rapes - or almost 14 rapes each. According to your statistics 2% of the male population are chronic, serial rapists.

Looking at it another way, in 2006 there were 469.2 violent crimes per 100,000 people in the US (here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States))

If each person committed only one crime (we know that's not true) then almost 0.5% of the general population are violent criminals....yet 2% of men are rapists.

So a man is more than 4 times more willing to rape a woman than he is to get into a fight? Good luck believing that

[Kalhoun]

There's date rape and there's date rape. I think sometimes booze and drugs fog the judgement of both parties. Sometimes someone slips a date rape drug to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them while passed out. There's no single definition, single thought process, etc. As with other types of sexual assault, there's a number of situations that all fall under the heading of Date Rape.

[Fenris]

There's date rape and there's date rape. I think sometimes booze and drugs fog the judgement of both parties. Sometimes someone slips a date rape drug to someone with the intent of taking advantage of them while passed out. There's no single definition, single thought process, etc. As with other types of sexual assault, there's a number of situations that all fall under the heading of Date Rape.

But--drugging someone without their consent and having sex is rape, surely? How is that different than sneaking up behind a woman and whacking her on the back of the head and raping her?

It's still "rape"--what does the modifier "date" tell us, except to blunt the harsh term "rape"?

[Kerryoke]

This starts to go more towards what I would like to explore - is date rape the equivalent of rape?

No, it's not the equivalent of rape. It is rape.

I would suspect that many (most?) guys that get accused of date rape quite genuinely thought the lady consented. And not in the "she was asking for it" consent - but real and genuine consent.

I guess I just don't understand how this confusion can arise. If you're not checking, consistently, for your partner's active and enthusiastic consent (not just a lack of non-consent), then, I'm sorry, but on your own head be it. It is both parties' responsbility to ensure that their partner is clearly and firmly into it. "Yes" is the word you have to wait for, not "no".

[Uthrecht]

I would say that the main distinction between going up to a stranger and raping them and raping your date is the trappings. The latter person doesn't think of themselves as a rapist, or even necessarily a bad person, they're on a date. And the date is going well, so now with the sex. And the partner will enjoy it, don't worry. After all, they got dinner, and sex is fun. It's all built up to assuage the person. But it doesn't make it not rape.

Both those types are about power. Sex is secondary. And it's a different situation than having sex with someone that was okay with it to start with, things changed, and signals were missed. Where the person would be okay with stopping, but didn't understand. That's not what MarissaW is discussing, in my view. I completely agree, she and I were discussing separate mindsets and encounters above. Rape is rape. Fumbled sex is fumbled sex. Missing cues badly enough can take you to rape, but most rapists aren't missing cues: they're plowing through with their agenda.

[mozg]

I don't know but I can see a disconnect, I can well remember being a 17 to 22 year old and I think most boys that age would think it was going to be more than talking. I can also see where a girl likes the guy and wants to hang out in a quieter place but not have sex or have the guy grope her.

I don't understand why the girl would think that. It's 2 am. You're both drunk. You're inviting them into a room with a bed. Conversation is the last thing on any guy's mind at that point.

If you want to hang out in a quieter place, you do it the next day, somewhere that doesn't have a bed.

This, however, I don't know how to take. Do you mean that going to a bedroom after drinking and partying necessarily implies sex will ensue?

I can't think of any other reason to take someone to a bedroom after getting drunk and partying.

If someone says "No" and the sex doesn't stop, it's rape.

How fast? If you're already fucking and she says "stop" and it takes you 10 seconds, is that rape? What if you're starting to orgasm when she says it and you don't hear it?

One in four women surveyed was victim of rape or attempted rape.

That one came from a 'study' in which the question was asked in various different ways and counted women as rape victims who did not consider themselves to have been raped. It's one of those cases where you can get statistics to say any damn thing you want if you ask the right questions enough times.

The statistics on false report of rape is actually about 3% nationally (Cite).

And I've seen evidence that with DNA testing that is now available, up to 25% of rape accusations are false:

U.S. Department of Justice: Convicted by Juries, Exonerated by Science: Case Studies in the Use of DNA Evidence to Establish Innocence After Trial. 1996 (http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/dnaevid.txt)
Every year since 1989, in about 25 percent of the sexual assault cases referred to the FBI where results could be obtained, the primary suspect has been excluded by forensic DNA testing. Specifically, FBI officials report that out of roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases since 1989, about 2,000 tests have been inconclusive, about 2,000 tests have excluded the primary suspect, and about 6,000 have "matched" or included the primary suspect.

...

these percentages have remained constant for 7 years, and the National Institute of Justice's informal survey of private laboratories reveals a strikingly similar 26 percent exclusion rate.

Susan Brownmiller's numbers have been known to be wrong for a long, long time. They, like the infamous Super Bowl myth, are still parroted by those who have been mislead by believing everything the news media repeats. This is the same stuff that's told to every college freshman as if it is true - and a lot of it is not.

[WednesdayAddams]

So a man is more than 4 times more willing to rape a woman than he is to get into a fight? Good luck believing that

I think you missed a couple of very key components in the article I cited:

* One in twelve male students surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definitions of rape or attempted rape.
* 84 percent of those men who committed rape said that what they did was definitely not rape.

Responses of the Victim

* Only 27 percent of those women whose sexual assault met the legal definition of rape thought of themselves as rape victims.
* 42 percent of the rape victims did not tell anyone about their assaults.
* Only five percent of the rape victims reported the crime to the police.
* Only five percent of the rape victims sought help at rape-crisis centers.
* Whether they had acknowledged their experience as a rape or not, thirty percent of the women identified as rape victims contemplated suicide after the incident.
* 82 percent of the victims said that the experience had permanently changed them.


Even though what was happening fit the legal definition of rape, in the minds of the men who committed rape and the victims what happened was not rape. So no most of the men polled would say they were not willing to commit rape. The problem is their definition of "rape" does not correspond with the true definition of rape. Regardless of "willing" however date rape happens more frequently than most students of either gender (the object of that study) are aware.

As for the statistics: They are YOURS. Not mine. Please do not put words in my mouth. And you can go just as wrong with statistics as with anything else. Based on the report's estimated figure of 5% reporting I would say a far larger number of men than 2% commit rape. They either do not think it is rape or they get away with it. But yes there are most definitely serial rapists.

[WednesdayAddams]

Susan Brownmiller's numbers have been known to be wrong for a long, long time. They, like the infamous Super Bowl myth, are still parroted by those who have been mislead by believing everything the news media repeats. This is the same stuff that's told to every college freshman as if it is true - and a lot of it is not.

And that citation runs bias in the opposite direction. "Inconclusive" does not mean either positive or negative. It means the test was unable to identify or rule out. Those numbers should not have been included to come up with that 25% number of false report.

I think rape is a hot button issue that much like abortion brings out high emotion. Yes it is important to look at all the facts. It is equally important that those facts be impartial. With a subject matter like this it's difficult to not automatically dismiss opposing views.

[Helen's Eidolon]

I can't think of any other reason to take someone to a bedroom after getting drunk and partying.Maybe I'm naive (and I'm being serious - I've been out of the dating scene a long time) but don't people ever fool around without having sex?

[cowgirl]

I agree that from the perspective of the victim, there is no meaningful difference between date rape and stranger rape - both can be "real" rapes and very traumatic to the victim.

The problem is that once we label date rape as equivalent to stranger rape, any decent man will place himself squarely in the category of "not a rapist" (because rapists are so horrible). And then the line of thinking goes - since I'm not a rapist, the thing that happened last night on the date that I was on could not have been a rape. Sure, we were drunk, and now that I think about it, I wasn't 100% positive that she was totally into it the whole time. But rape is about power and control, but I was just drunk and horny, and I'm not a rapist, so that wasn't rape.

I don't know how to resolve this. But the stats above demonstrate that it's common for the exact same situation to be interpreted by a woman as rape and by a man as not-rape. Considering all rapes to be equal may be accurate from the woman's point of view, but it's not from the man's point of view. And since men are the perpetrators here (i.e. preventing rapes means preventing men from raping), I think it's reasonable to consider their point of view.

I understand the importance of considering date rape as "real" as any rape, from the point of view of the woman. It is wrong (and a crime) under any circumstances to have sex without your partner's full consent, and ignorance ("I thought she wanted it!") is never an excuse. So I have no idea how to resolve this.

[mozg]

Maybe I'm naive (and I'm being serious - I've been out of the dating scene a long time) but don't people ever fool around without having sex?

I have never had that actually happen when being drunk in the middle of the night after being at a party or a bar and asking someone to go home with me.

I actually never did much 'fooling around'. If there was any sort of clothing removal, there was total clothing removal.

And that citation runs bias in the opposite direction. "Inconclusive" does not mean either positive or negative. It means the test was unable to identify or rule out. Those numbers should not have been included to come up with that 25% number of false report.

In 2,000 out of the 10,000 cases that were examined, DNA specifically excluded the accused as the guilty party. That's 20%.

Another 2,000 (20%) were inconclusive.

Even at 20% false accusations, this is still more than six times higher than your claim of 3%.

But wait, there's more:

False rape allegations: an assault on justice
Annals of the American Psychotherapy Association , Winter, 2008 by Bruce Gross (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb013/is_4_11/ai_n31335167)

During the follow-up investigation, the complainants held fast to their assertion that their rape allegation had been true, despite being told they would face penalties for filing a false report. As a result, 41% of all of the forcible rape complaints were found to be false. To further this study, a similar analysis was conducted on all of the forcible rape complaints filed at two large midwestern public universities over a 3-year period. Here, where polygraphs were not offered as part of the investigatory procedure, it was found that 50% of the complaints were false.

And you can go just as wrong with statistics as with anything else. Based on the report's estimated figure of 5% reporting I would say a far larger number of men than 2% commit rape.

You think that if we took 100 men randomly off the street, more than two of them are rapists?

Where, other than out of your ass, did you get these numbers?

Sure, we were drunk, and now that I think about it, I wasn't 100% positive that she was totally into it the whole time.

Why is this rape? Because she was less than enthusiastic? Because she was drunk? Why?

It is wrong (and a crime) under any circumstances to have sex without your partner's full consent, and ignorance ("I thought she wanted it!") is never an excuse.

So it's rape if she never said that she didn't want to have sex? Is the guy supposed to ask every X seconds whether she wants to do this in case she changes her mind? Asking up front apparently isn't enough because she can change her mind at any point including when his dick is already in her, and even if she doesn't tell him that she changed her mind, he's a rapist.

That's bullshit.

[cowgirl]

Why is this rape? Because she was less than enthusiastic? Because she was drunk? Why?In the scenario you refer to I only described his point of view - that was my point. All you know is that she didn't consent. Perhaps she was too drunk to consent (most jurisdictions consider this rape). Perhaps she was into it but he wanted to do anal and she didn't but it happened too fast for her to stop him. Perhaps he revealed a big ugly turn-off about himself (maybe in the heat of the moment he called her "mommy" - or "daddy" - or something - the human sexual response is notoriously fickle). Perhaps she never wanted to do it in the first place, but for whatever reason he didn't get this message. The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter why - she didn't consent, he had sex with her - it was rape.

Is the guy supposed to ask every X seconds whether she wants to do this in case she changes her mind? A lot of people use the concept of "enthusiastic consent" - i.e. in cases of not-rape, where both partners want it, there is usually enthusiastic consent on the part of both parties. I know that when I want to have sex with someone, it is quite clear and unambiguous from my body language, if not my actual words (i.e. I might not actually use the words "yes, yes, oh god, do that again!" but just about anyone could tell from my body language). No, I don't think it's unreasonable for men to get used to expecting this kind of reaction.

If your partner is not responding enthusiastically and positively to you, then I would question your motives in continuing what you're doing.

Asking up front apparently isn't enough because she can change her mind at any point including when his dick is already in her, and even if she doesn't tell him that she changed her mind, he's a rapist.

That's bullshit.You keep coming back to this extreme case where she changes her mind while his dick is in her. I agree that, in this extreme case, it is very difficult for us to make judgments on whether it was rape or not (particularly since it's completely hypothetical). I am not talking about those kinds of cases, and I don't think it contributes anything to the discussion except to make it appear hopeless for men to figure out how mysterious and fickle women work. I am talking specifically about cases where there is no explicit consent, not cases where it is provided and then withdrawn at the last possible moment. I have never brought up such a case and it is disingenuous of you to ask me to defend it.

[WednesdayAddams]

I have never had that actually happen when being drunk in the middle of the night after being at a party or a bar and asking someone to go home with me.

I actually never did much 'fooling around'. If there was any sort of clothing removal, there was total clothing removal.


And thank you for exemplifying your emotional bias. Your views on this subject are well known. Many people have provided citations that you wave away as man bashing or biased but you present yours as if there should be no question to their authenticity. Your first sentence is entirely anecdotal, yet you continue to present your opinion as representative of all sexual experience. I would have thought you were on the Dope long enough to recognize that anecdote=/=data. What you personally have experienced or seen is not necessarily representative of all sexual experience.

I am willing to accept that the number of false report may be higher than represented, but since the numbers are in such stark contrast perhaps we should find a citation we both consider accurate? The DoJ? It is difficult to discuss a subject with someone so obviously closed to any option that does not blame the victim.

[Kalhoun]

But--drugging someone without their consent and having sex is rape, surely? How is that different than sneaking up behind a woman and whacking her on the back of the head and raping her?

It's still "rape"--what does the modifier "date" tell us, except to blunt the harsh term "rape"?

I don't think it blunts it. It's a descriptor. It's defining a difference between a known offender and an unknown. The circumstances are different because you are willingly with this person. That doesn't lessen the offense, but it sheds a different light on the matter. A woman could be very drunk of her own doing and not say "no", and then the next day determine that she was taken advantage of. Is saying "no" the only difference between rape and "regret sex?" Is it always rape just because the woman said it was? There are a lot of details that need to be considered when claiming rape by acquaintance.

[Khampelf]

So it's rape if she never said that she didn't want to have sex? Is the guy supposed to ask every X seconds whether she wants to do this in case she changes her mind? Asking up front apparently isn't enough because she can change her mind at any point including when his dick is already in her, and even if she doesn't tell him that she changed her mind, he's a rapist.

That's bullshit.


This underlines the power women having regarding accusations. If she decides she regrets the decision, she may cry rape to avoid responsibility. Unfortunate, but you can't tell me it never happens. I guess to avoid the possibility of rape accusations, we should have a consent form made up, and give the lady some sort of air horn or hot button to press if she changes her mind midway. This is obviously ridiculous. I think both sides need to take more responsibility for their sexuality. This is difficult in the heat of the moment, but saying something like "This isn't working for me, can I finish you with my hand?" could avoid frustration and embarrassment.

I've told partners the worst thing they could do to me is tell me afterward that they didn't want to make love, but did anyway. That's not a compliment, or an accommodation, that's just wrong.

So, what goes through the mind of a date rapist? Who says he's thinking?

[mozg]

The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter why - she didn't consent, he had sex with her - it was rape.


And I think that if she was conscious and didn't say no, he's not a rapist.

No, I don't think it's unreasonable for men to get used to expecting this kind of reaction.

If your partner is not responding enthusiastically and positively to you, then I would question your motives in continuing what you're doing.


Not everybody is vocal, or hell, even very active in the sack. Personally it wouldn't turn me on to be with someone who did the whole dead fish routine, but that doesn't really equate to rape.

I am talking specifically about cases where there is no explicit consent

I just don't think that 'explicit consent' should be the standard that has to be met.

Many people have provided citations that you wave away as man bashing or biased but you present yours as if there should be no question to their authenticity.

I have brought up long-standing criticisms of Susan Brownmiller's methodolgy in gathering her statistics. I have presented citations that you have not refuted on their substance or their methodology.

Your first sentence is entirely anecdotal, yet you continue to present your opinion as representative of all sexual experience.

I was asked a direct question about my experiences by Helen's Eidolon, which I answered.

I am willing to accept that the number of false report may be higher than represented, but since the numbers are in such stark contrast perhaps we should find a citation we both consider accurate? The DoJ? It is difficult to discuss a subject with someone so obviously closed to any option that does not blame the victim.

The first citation I gave you, the one in which the FBI found that 20% of accused rapists were excluded by DNA evidence, was from the DOJ.

Is it always rape just because the woman said it was?

Or if she was drunk, which the man is supposed to be able to gauge her level of intoxication no matter how drunk he is and be able to tell at what point she is and is not able to give consent.

[Kalhoun]

This underlines the power women having regarding accusations. If she decides she regrets the decision, she may cry rape to avoid responsibility. Unfortunate, but you can't tell me it never happens. I guess to avoid the possibility of rape accusations, we should have a consent form made up, and give the lady some sort of air horn or hot button to press if she changes her mind midway. This is obviously ridiculous. I think both sides need to take more responsibility for their sexuality. This is difficult in the heat of the moment, but saying something like "This isn't working for me, can I finish you with my hand?" could avoid frustration and embarrassment.

I've told partners the worst thing they could do to me is tell me afterward that they didn't want to make love, but did anyway. That's not a compliment, or an accommodation, that's just wrong.

So, what goes through the mind of a date rapist? Who says he's thinking?I have an acquaintance who got into a 3-way at the behest of his wife and her friend. The friend decided after the fact that it was a mistake, and he was charged and convicted of rape. So yeah, shit happens.

[Kerryoke]

I just don't think that 'explicit consent' should be the standard that has to be met.

Why not? I mean, the definition of rape is "non-consensual". So, yes, consent is required. It seems like clearing up ambiguity is in everyone's interest.

I think there's a nice middle place between "if she's not actively clawing at me, I'll assume she's okay with it and proceed" and "consent forms and airhorns", and I think it's clear, affirmative consent.

[WednesdayAddams]

I have brought up long-standing criticisms of Susan Brownmiller's methodolgy in gathering her statistics. I have presented citations that you have not refuted on their substance or their methodology.


Despite the fact that the citations I used had nothing to do with Susan Brownmiller. Let us leave the feminist vendetta out.


I was asked a direct question about my experiences by Helen's Eidolon, which I answered.

No, she asked if "people" don't fool around without necessarily having sex in mind. YOU inferred a direction instead of an abstraction.

The first citation I gave you, the one in which the FBI found that 20% of accused rapists were excluded by DNA evidence, was from the DOJ.

Well then let us go further into your numbers, which are mitigated thusly:

Degrees of "Not True"

A certain percentage of rape complaints are classified as "unfounded" by the police and excluded from the FBI's statistics. For example, in 1995, 8% of all forcible rape cases were closed as unfounded, as were 15% in 1996 (Greenfeld, 1997). According to the FBI, a report should only be considered unfounded when investigation revealed that the elements of the crime were not met or the report was "false" (which is not defined) (FBI, 2007).

This statistic is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, "unfounded." That is, a report of rape might be classified as unfounded (rather than as forcible rape) if the alleged victim did not try to fight off the suspect, if the alleged perpetrator did not use physical force or a weapon of some sort, if the alleged victim did not sustain any physical injuries, or if the alleged victim and the accused had a prior sexual relationship. Similarly, a report might be deemed unfounded if there is no physical evidence or too many inconsistencies between the accuser's statement and what evidence does exist. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false.

"Lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Again, quoting numbers does not necessarily tell the whole story. Many women do not fight back out of fear. As a result, their case is discounted as "unfounded" but not necessarily false.

I think it is possible to have a reasoned discussion about this subject. Just not with you. Which is more than a little annoying because that essentially means there is no possibility of having this discussion on this board without it being immediately polarized (which in case anyone is in doubt, has most definitely happened).

[mozg]

Why not? I mean, the definition of rape is "non-consensual". So, yes, consent is required. It seems like clearing up ambiguity is in everyone's interest.

I think there's a nice middle place between "if she's not actively clawing at me, I'll assume she's okay with it and proceed" and "consent forms and airhorns", and I think it's clear, affirmative consent.

Because it leads to problems like how often you have to ask for consent, do you have to ask for consent for every step, in what terms do you have to ask for consent, and at what point does the consent have to be specified, or is there a point after which it can't be revoked.

I remember some farce of this from a college thing years and years ago where they wanted it to be like 'Can I put my hand on your breast?' 'Can I unhook your bra?' 'Can I touch your nipple?' etc.

It was the stupidest thing I ever heard.

And asking beforehand whether someone wants to have sex isn't going to work, since they could change their mind at any point after that and it would be considered rape.

Despite the fact that the citations I used had nothing to do with Susan Brownmiller.


She is the source of the oft-quoted 1 in 4 number.

No, she asked if "people" don't fool around without necessarily having sex in mind. YOU inferred a direction instead of an abstraction.

She said that as a direct response to something I had said about inviting people to my bedroom. I had no reason to think it was a question for someone other than me.

Well then let us go further into your numbers, which are mitigated thusly:

And if you'll notice, that had nothing to do with the cases in which DNA excluded the accused.

You're conflating two diferent sets of numbers to get the results you want.

I notice you still have not provided basis for your claim that more than 2% of men are rapists. Are you going to do that at any point, or is it just something you pulled out of your ass and expect everyone to take at face value?

[Kalhoun]

And I think that if she was conscious and didn't say no, he's not a rapist.


I just don't think that 'explicit consent' should be the standard that has to be met.


Or if she was drunk, which the man is supposed to be able to gauge her level of intoxication no matter how drunk he is and be able to tell at what point she is and is not able to give consent.

I bolded the two statements I feel are very important, and extremely difficult to make a call on. There are times when a person is conscious but in a blackout state, but obviously, this can't always be determined by another person, particularly if that person is drunk or otherwise impaired to begin with. Explicit consent is also a gray area. While an impaired woman may not explicitly say, "no", she can be pulling away, turning away, or giving other signals (or be out cold, in which case no "explicit" anything would be conveyed). She could be awake but claim she was unconscious. The list goes on and on. Sometimes it's easier to prove than others. Sometimes a woman may be afraid to say "no." I just don't think there can be a sweeping definition. It's important to look at each case individually before you slap a life-altering label on either party.

[WednesdayAddams]

I just don't think there can be a sweeping definition. It's important to look at each case individually before you slap a life-altering label on either party.

Exactly. Thank you for posting that.

[Kerryoke]

I agree, and I think, with that in mind, the best thing to do is to establish social mores that eliminate as many date rapes and false accusations as possible, and I think that explicit affirmative consent does that.

[Kalhoun]

Because it leads to problems like how often you have to ask for consent, do you have to ask for consent for every step, in what terms do you have to ask for consent, and at what point does the consent have to be specified, or is there a point after which it can't be revoked.

I remember some farce of this from a college thing years and years ago where they wanted it to be like 'Can I put my hand on your breast?' 'Can I unhook your bra?' 'Can I touch your nipple?' etc.



I recall a pro ball player who video taped each woman he slept with. He got them to consent on camera to protect himself from false accusations.

[WednesdayAddams]

You're conflating two diferent sets of numbers to get the results you want.

Well that wasn't too predictable. Entrenchment city population: you.
That information came from YOUR citation.

I notice you still have not provided basis for your claim that more than 2% of men are rapists. Are you going to do that at any point, or is it just something you pulled out of your ass and expect everyone to take at face value?
Actually, my exact words were: "Based on the report's estimated figure of 5% reporting I would say a far larger number of men than 2% commit rape." It would logically follow that if the vast majority of rapes go unreported, a much larger number of men (or women) would be guilty of rape.

In any case, I am smart enough to recognize a brick wall when I am beating my head against it. You are far more invested in being right than you are in a discussion.

[bengangmo]

Why not? I mean, the definition of rape is "non-consensual". So, yes, consent is required. It seems like clearing up ambiguity is in everyone's interest.

I think there's a nice middle place between "if she's not actively clawing at me, I'll assume she's okay with it and proceed" and "consent forms and airhorns", and I think it's clear, affirmative consent.

(bolding mine)

In contract law, implied consent is a well established principle - when you go into a store, the owner doesn't have to ask "do you want to buy this widget for a $1". The presence of a price tag and having the customer pass over a $1 note is considered enough.


In hte case of sex though, you think "clear affirmative consent" is required? So your bright line would be:
Man: Do you want to have sex?
Women: Yes

Anything else doesn't work?

In the previous stats, a large number of rapists said that what they did "wasn't rape"

Most of these are probably just misanthropes, but I am sure that there is also a good proportion that are socially adept, kind and considerate men that are now very confused. Does that make it right? Not at all - but it does mean that we need to keep exploring the issue, and that there are flaws in how (some) cases of rape are currently perceived.

If we could get it sorted out it can only be to the benefit of both men and women.

[WednesdayAddams]

I think that as Kalhoun and Tracy Lord said the best way to look at is on a case by case basis. Because of the myriad different ways people react to different scenarios it is impossible to treat them all the same. Different things make different people uncomfortable. Men get raped too and in some cases are treated even worse than female rape victims. When it comes to date rape I think the two most important things are making it very clear if you do not want to do something and listening if someone says they do not want to.

[Kerryoke]

Or even,

Woman: Hey, are you okay with this?
Man: Yes!

Yes. I think that would help all the socially adept men who are kind and considerate but confused, because it would be clear. Obviously, as Kalhoun and I said earlier, not every case is the same, but I think affirmative consent before anything happens would eliminate both a lot of the date rapes that are the result of confusion/misunderstanding, and a lot of false/ambiguous accusations afterward.

[Kalhoun]

I think both parties need to be a little less willing to hop into the sack with someone they don't know*. I realize these decisions are often made by people under the influence, but maybe people need to go out with a friend and have a "designated thinker" to help them sort things out.

*guilty of this in my past life.

[astro]

Calling something "date rape" when both parties have decided to take of their clothes and roll around on a bed naked can be problematic. One problem with some of the characterizations here is that appears to be an expectation that any man should controllable by a polite verbal leash tug to cease and desist even if things have proceeded to the point that both parties are unclothed and his penis is knocking at the door of your vagina. Some men are willing to stop at this point and call it a night, others will accede but feel they are being jerked around, while others will think they are being presented with this request as part of the seduction dynamic and plow ahead.

And it is naive and disingenuous to pretend that some women do not really enjoy simply being "taken". There were a few times in my life in medium term relationships where we were fooling around, and the urge was so powerful I didn't ask for any kind of permission to proceed as I virtually tore their panties off and boffed their brains out. It was my good fortune that they regarded this as the hottest sex they ever had, and in that heat of passion I can assure you that nothing short of a cry of pain or some kind of physical assault would have stopped me. "No please, I've changed my mind" would probably not have cut it in that instance. 99% of the other times I had sexual relations an uncomfortable cough or tentative sigh might have given me pause.

People are not robots and not all men (or women for that matter) have sexual "stop" switches fully engaged all the time. The fact that a number of women genuinely believe that bringing a man to their apartment for a make out session after bar or club hopping is fine because they should be able to yank the magic "stop" bell at any time in the process is playing with fire and stupidity of first order. What the law dictates as rape is based (barring other evidence) mainly on the woman's opinion of whether she felt raped or not. If two drunk adults are fooling around naked on a bed, and his penis winds up in her vagina even though that's not exactly what she wanted, calling it "rape", which puts it akin to criminal forced rape, is stretching the envelope of that definition.

[Nzinga, Seated]

And it is naive and disingenuous to pretend that some women do not really enjoy simply being "taken".

For whatever reason, I am one of those women. If I were to play armchair psychiatrist, I would guess it is because I have a dominating personality most of the time, and have some need to be 'dominated' sometimes in the bedroom. But I think I would be an awful psychiatrist, so don't put to much stock in that analysis.

I have a co-worker who is a hard core feminist (rad-fem, she likes to call herself) and she admonished me for this 'game playing' of saying no when I mean yes. I completely understand why she doesn't want me to do that, but she never seems to want to admit that if I do it, then other women do too, and it is not fair to say that it is rape when a women is moaning a breathy and quivering 'no' while hungrily responding with her body.

And while it is true that I have only played this game with someone that knows me well and we do trust eachother, but there are plenty of adults that do want to have sex without 'getting to know eachother' and there is nothing wrong with that. If a man and a women agree to meet, drink and hop in the sack, I don't like the idea of him having to gauge how 'enthusiastic' she is being. I realized that folks in this thread are making the point that clear communication that the woman wants to have sex is important...but I think the whole thing gets weird for me with the idea that the women who is drunk has to be evaluated as being 'into it' by the man who is equally drunk.

[bengangmo]

speaking for my wife (dangerous I know) she doesn't like to be "taken" but she does like to be pursued, it makes her feel wanted and attractive. If I just turned over the first time she said no every time then it would become boring very quickly - there at times is a certain amount of pursuing to get her in the mood (and FTR, I am the same also)

I appreciate all the thoughtful responses so far, my own suspicion with date rape is that there is far more going on than simply bad communication and guys not caring about whether the woman wants it or not (there was one stat quoted earlier that more than 80% of rapists don't consider what they did rape, which is kinda chilling for me). I think the more we explore this, the better we will understand and the less "fallout" there would be from cases of date rape - both for the raper and the rapee.

[Muskrat Love]

It's probably just a close to total disregard for the feelings of the rape victim.

As an example, I had a dream once where I was playing a video game where I had to fight these ninja-like figures. Like many dreams I have that start out being video games, it ended up being a more real experience. After I kick the asses of the ninjas using my awesome video game fighting skills, I notice that one of them, who is barely conscious, is a cute blonde female. I think "She's not real, she's just a fictional character", so I started to undress her and fondle her. I then get worried that I am out in public and a passer-by might not realize she's not a real person, so I started to drag her away to someplace more secluded. At this point the dream shifted somewhat and it was like I was dragging some kind of life-size doll of a woman, I realized how bad that looked and I woke up before the dream could go any further, but I think it illustrates a part of the male mind that can explain date rape in some circumstances. I was not intending to humiliate the female dream character, or express my power over her, or anything like that. I just wanted some sexual gratification, realized there were no possible repercussions, and had no regard for her feelings. If, through some fault in my brain chemistry or my upbringing, I had no empathy for real living females, I could be a rapist for the sole reason of getting my rocks off, with no animosity towards the victim.

[Clothahump]

Rape is not about sex. It's about power, domination and control.

A rapist does not really look at his victim as a person. She's just a glorified sex toy. Whether she is willing or not is immaterial.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Rape is not about sex. It's about power, domination and control.



Hmm. I never really bought this.

[whirlingbladesofkick]

Rape is not about sex.

A rapist does not really look at his victim as a person. She's just a glorified sex toy.

Why not just beat her senseless? Rape is about that stuff you said, but it's also about sex, no? I guess I don't understand what that's supposed to mean when it's stated like that.

[WednesdayAddams]

Because the violence is usually just threatened. If I understand it correctly the real purpose of rape is humiliation and control. Beating someone senseless is just aggression. This (http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0126.htm) is an interesting study done by a criminal profiler at Quantico. One rapist interviewed said:

``Raping them is one thing. Beating on them is entirely something else. None of my victims were harmed and for a person to kill somebody after raping them, it just makes me mad.''

Nzinga I am not sure that control is what is behind date rape but the report I cited is consistent with the statement that forced rape is about control:

In previous research, it was found that there was no relationship between both verbal and physical resistance and the amount of injury sustained by the victim. (10) Interestingly, however, the degree of the rapists' pleasure and the duration of the rape did increase when the victim resisted.

which would seem to indicate that most of the sexual response and enjoyment came from overpowering and controlling their victims.

[Uthrecht]

Which, to me, still means it's about sex, it's just that they require control to get sexual gratification. I might be putting words in peoples' mouths, but I was taking that as objecting to the statement that it was not about sex, not it not being about control. I buy that it's primarily about control, it's just that, well, it's also about sex, probably to varying degrees.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Which, to me, still means it's about sex, it's just that they require control to get sexual gratification. I might be putting words in peoples' mouths, but I was taking that as objecting to the statement that it was not about sex, not it not being about control. I buy that it's primarily about control, it's just that, well, it's also about sex, probably to varying degrees.

Right. I take exception with Clothahump's statement, "Rape is not about sex". I think it is. Maybe it is about control, but definitely about sex. I think. I mean, I read Marissa's cite, but I have always wondered about the statement, "Rape is not about sex, it is about control", because I am pretty sure there are all kinds of ways to take 'control' of a person without inserting a penis and ejaculating. I mean, if an orgasm isn't about sex, then I don't know what sex is!

[Khampelf]

If you force a prostitute to have sex with you, is it rape, or robbery?

[Muskrat Love]

Sex is also about power and control. Sexual behavior, at least in males, is very close to predatory behavior - it seems to be based on the same instincts, which is why men often enjoy holding their mate down and biting them, even in consensual sex. It's a fine line between fighting and fucking...in fact, the word "fuck" has it's origins in a Germanic verb meaning "to strike".

Just look at the animal kingdom. Cats are very violent when they mate. The male bites the female on the back of the neck, just like they would if they were killing prey - they just don't bite down as hard. Many animals commit rape. I've seen a bunch of male ducks gang rape a female, and I've heard of instances where the female is drowned when this happens. Would you say duck rape has nothing to do with sex, that those drakes are just wanting to dominate and control the female duck?

Rape is sex where the female does not consent, but it's still sex. There are many animals where females never consent, humans are just one of the ones where the females sometimes do.

[Guinastasia]

Which, to me, still means it's about sex, it's just that they require control to get sexual gratification. I might be putting words in peoples' mouths, but I was taking that as objecting to the statement that it was not about sex, not it not being about control. I buy that it's primarily about control, it's just that, well, it's also about sex, probably to varying degrees.

Or basically, using sex as a weapon against someone.

[hilarity n. suze]

From the perspective of having been awakened in the middle of the night by a man I did not know, who had broken into my house, who took some pains to conceal his identity, who claimed he had a gun and who actually had a knife, I would like to say that this experience does not compare to somebody having sex at the end of a date who said "Stop, you're hurting me," and it took the guy ten seconds or so to actually stop. These two things are not remotely the same. Not even close. There's a continuum here and all sorts of shades of gray.

I think what people call "date rape" is really more about sex. Back in my dating days, I don't recall ever going out with somebody I wouldn't have sex with. That didn't mean we'd have it that night, necessarily, but it meant I was open to the idea, at least at the beginning of the date. I did have some where the whole evening consisted of fighting the guy off, and those guys were right off the short list. But if they had forced me, they would still have been off the short list, plus I knew who they were, and I could get them back.

At one point I was engaged to a really nice, cuddly guy. When we got engaged, I told an old friend of mine. She told me that the summer before, she had gone out with him, and he'd raped her. There's some disengagement there. I actually asked him about it. He got really uncomfortable. He had been set up with her as a blind date and told she was a pig and would screw anybody. They got drunk. He gathered she was not that into it, but she didn't fight him off, therefore, well, it was okay. (Note: She was not a pig.) It was hard to reconcile the teddy bear I knew with a rapist, and it seemed she wasn't even the one who led him on--it was the guy who set up the date. (This is not why we didn't get married, but it was an uncomfortable conversation all around.)

[Nzinga, Seated]

From the perspective of having been awakened in the middle of the night by a man I did not know, who had broken into my house, who took some pains to conceal his identity, who claimed he had a gun and who actually had a knife, I would like to say that this experience does not compare to somebody having sex at the end of a date who said "Stop, you're hurting me," and it took the guy ten seconds or so to actually stop. These two things are not remotely the same. Not even close. There's a continuum here and all sorts of shades of gray.

You know something; I have never thought of this. When folks are talking about 'date rape', I just know in my gut that having to deal with that would mortify me, so I have just fully accepted when people said it is the exact same as 'rape-rape'. You know? But I have never thought about it from the perspective that you describe, and hearing that has me thinking.

[Muskrat Love]

I think that, in a lot of criminal behavior, we define the actor's intentions by the victim's perception. As an example, when my apartment was broken into, I felt very offended and angry. I felt like the burglar must have hated and looked down upon me to violate my privacy like they did, it was like a slap in the face. In hindsight, I realized that they probably just didn't care about how I felt at all or even think about the person they were robbing, they were just interested in getting their hands on my things.

Because being raped causes such a strong negative emotional response in the victim, I think a kind of projection is going on in defining why men rape. A rape victim feels helpless and emotionally traumatized, and the experience has hardly anything to do with sex to the victim, so they feel like it was a crime of domination and control that had nothing to do with sex. I'm sure that, in many cases if not the majority, the primary reason why the rapist rapes a woman has to do with hatred for women, and that they are getting a kick out of how they are making the victim feel, but I don't believe that is universal. In many cases, it's just a case of someone not caring how the victim feels, that the rapist would be just as turned on if the woman consented instead of resisting.

[Anacanapuna]

The warden of the local prison (Colorado's largest) once gave me a lesson on the meaning of "criminal mind." He said:

"Suppose you're at a big family picnic. You go pick up a paper plate and get your hamburger, your potato salad, your baked beans, maybe some watermelon. You enjoy your meal, it all tastes great, you have fun talking and eating, and when you're all done, you throw the plate in the trash. Well, the criminal mind looks at all of us and sees a stack of paper plates."

The truth is, some guys just see females as paper plates. It's sociopathy or psychopathy or some kind of 'pathy that just doesn't allow them to consider other people as worthy of consideration. Every guy wants to think himself capable of so arousing a woman that she'll tear her clothes off and mount him roughly (oh, sorry, my mind wandered a bit) but face it, most of us aren't James Bond. Most of us aren't even Maxwell Smart. But it's important to us that, when we couple with someone else, that someone wants us, truly wants us. But there are a few bozos out there who are just looking for the next paper plate.

[Drinky Crow]

The one time I ever attacked a girl in any kind of sexual way (well, in any way, really), I was, I think, in third grade. A friend and I chased a classmate of ours because we wanted to see under her dress. It wasn't in any way a "fun" kind of chasing, but seriously scary and predatory. She was in tears. At one point I poked her with a stick.

What I recall of my mindset at that time, I felt almost no empathy for her whatsoever. I was completely focused on my own curiosity -- I was determined to look under her dress, and perceived her protests and resistance merely as an obstacle to my satisfaction. I knew I was doing a wrong thing, but understood the wrongness more in terms of rule-breaking than doing something awful to another person. (Side note: I have Asperger's Syndrome. I don't know if or how this affected my behavior in this incident.) I got in major, major trouble -- apocalyptic trouble -- as a result of this, and maybe the one positive thing that came out of it was that it shocked me into a whole new mindset -- I think my sense of empathy was born out of that horrible event. Anyway, I guess I grew up a little after that.

I wonder if the typical rapist has never grown out of this mindset. If some part of his mind is permanently stuck in this immature state, so that he can only perceive his own appetites, and is only dimly aware, if at all, that other people exist as feeling human beings like himself. He has no compassion for others because it doesn't even occur to him that he should.

[Nzinga, Seated]

The one time I ever attacked a girl in any kind of sexual way (well, in any way, really), I was, I think, in third grade. A friend and I chased a classmate of ours because we wanted to see under her dress. It wasn't in any way a "fun" kind of chasing, but seriously scary and predatory. She was in tears. At one point I poked her with a stick.

What I recall of my mindset at that time, I felt almost no empathy for her whatsoever. I was completely focused on my own curiosity -- I was determined to look under her dress, and perceived her protests and resistance merely as an obstacle to my satisfaction. I knew I was doing a wrong thing, but understood the wrongness more in terms of rule-breaking than doing something awful to another person. (Side note: I have Asperger's Syndrome. I don't know if or how this affected my behavior in this incident.) I got in major, major trouble -- apocalyptic trouble -- as a result of this, and maybe the one positive thing that came out of it was that it shocked me into a whole new mindset -- I think my sense of empathy was born out of that horrible event. Anyway, I guess I grew up a little after that.

I wonder if the typical rapist has never grown out of this mindset. If some part of his mind is permanently stuck in this immature state, so that he can only perceive his own appetites, and is only dimly aware, if at all, that other people exist as feeling human beings like himself. He has no compassion for others because it doesn't even occur to him that he should.

That's deep. Ya'll are some deep cats.

[Islander]

I wonder if the typical rapist has never grown out of this mindset. If some part of his mind is permanently stuck in this immature state, so that he can only perceive his own appetites, and is only dimly aware, if at all, that other people exist as feeling human beings like himself. He has no compassion for others because it doesn't even occur to him that he should.

I'm coming late to this discussion but I'm prompted to comment on the Crow's characterization of the typical rapist; I doubt there is such a thing. Previous posts have already explored numerous shades of situational grey. As for the lack of compassion—here you are describing, not a rapist, but a sociopath. You've given us almost a textbook definition.

[Detroit Hoser]

Is a rapist not a sociopath? I can personally attest that at least one of them is motherfucking evil, but I sincerely do not know the definition of "sociopath" as it would pertain to a rapist.

I have this stumbling block -- if I could understand the mind of someone capable of inflicting the trauma and devastation of rape, I believe perhaps I could possibly reconcile one or two things. It's a sincere question; so far the only answer I've received is, "You can never really know." And that's not good enough.

[Muskrat Love]

Is a rapist not a sociopath? I can personally attest that at least one of them is motherfucking evil, but I sincerely do not know the definition of "sociopath" as it would pertain to a rapist.

I have this stumbling block -- if I could understand the mind of someone capable of inflicting the trauma and devastation of rape, I believe perhaps I could possibly reconcile one or two things. It's a sincere question; so far the only answer I've received is, "You can never really know." And that's not good enough.

There's the projection again - the feeling that the perpetrator is aware of and intending the emotional harm done. A potential date rapist may not be a total sociopath, and may seem like a nice person in ways, but not be able to understand the emotional trauma rape causes. They might not be able to relate to women in general, or just not be able to understand why someone would see the act as a negative thing. They might be able to justify it to themselves even if they do have an understanding of it - "She'll be into it once she gets over her initial resistance" or "She probably won't even remember it tomorrow".

I think you could divide rapists into four categories.

A. Those who enjoy inflicting emotional trauma

B. Those who don't care if they inflict emotional trauma

C. Those who don't know or believe they are causing emotional trauma

D. Those who know they are doing wrong, but lack the self-control to stop