What is happiness?

[Roo]

There's a new book out called The Happiness Project (http://www.happiness-project.com/) by Gretchen Rubin. She supposedly tests out the wisdom of the ages on her own life in a year to determine if it makes her happier. I like the idea of the book, but, to me, doing something for a month isn't an adequate test to determine happiness since happiness and short-term pleasure can be easily confused.

So what is happiness and how can it be measured?

In Daniel Gilbert's book, Stumbling on Happiness (http://www.amazon.com/Stumbling-Happiness-Daniel-Gilbert/dp/1400077427/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264293330&sr=8-1), he doesn't really define happiness, but says that it's a subjective experience He talks about emotional happiness, moral happiness and judgmental happiness. And he talks about people describing themselves as very happy about things we normally wouldn't consider happy, like say, living with a chronic illness. He goes on to talk about how we measure something that can't be described, but again, it's a subjective process where the subjects are just describing internal states.

Matthieu Ricard, a biologist turned Buddhist Monk, describes happiness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_30JzRGDHI) as a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment of a life purpose.

So what do you think? How would you define happiness? How do you know how happy you are?

I'm interested here in discussing and challenging the definitions of happiness.

[Zack Lee Wright]

I don't think you can describe happiness, it just is...or isn't. Someone can be a millionaire, happy at work with a loving family and not be happy. While someone else can be broke, hate his job and have family problems but all in all still be happy. I know what makes me happy but I don't know how to define it.




On a side note do you know your book link is a referral link?

[Roo]

I know what makes me happy but I don't know how to define it.
How can you tell that it makes you happy and not just gives short-term pleasure? Is there a difference to you?

On a side note do you know your book link is a referral link?
Do you mean the Happiness Project book? That's the author's blog. One of the criticisms of the book is that it's just pieces of the blog put together. There's lots more information about the book in the blog than on Amazon.

[Zack Lee Wright]

How can you tell that it makes you happy and not just gives short-term pleasure? Is there a difference to you?

Yes, to be blunt sexual intimacy is a short-term pleasure, sharing a "happy" event with my family makes me happy something I can go back on in my mind and relive the happiness. Doesn't work that way with the pleasure if you get what I am having trouble conveying.


Do you mean the Happiness Project book? That's the author's blog. One of the criticisms of the book is that it's just pieces of the blog put together. There's lots more information about the book in the blog than on Amazon.

That's cool, I thought maybe you picked up the link on Google. I usually avoid referral links and go the direct route unless I know who is making money off my purchase. The author by all means is a worthy referral link. :)

[severe delays]

I don't think there's such a thing as 'happiness'. I'd see that more as a catch-all term for a number of things which are much more concrete. At one end there's contentment and at the other end there are things like joy and excitement. One thing I've noticed is that people often seem to assume that happiness is only about the active end of the scale and that if they are not experiencing those things then by default they are not happy. I don't know if this is something we naturally feel but it's certainly an idea that is bolstered by the media where emotions are not interesting unless they are extreme.

As an aside: A lot of blogs turn into books and get criticised for having already been published on the net. I don't get the logic. It was a blog and now it's in paper - if you don't want to pay then go read it for free online.

[Roo]

Yes, to be blunt sexual intimacy is a short-term pleasure, sharing a "happy" event with my family makes me happy something I can go back on in my mind and relive the happiness. Doesn't work that way with the pleasure if you get what I am having trouble conveying.
That's a great example where the context really counts. Sexual intimacy in a healthy relationship can lead to long-term happiness. But just sex by itself for its own sake can lead to sex addiction and a short term pleasurable experience followed by long-term unhappiness. . . or so I've read. . . as in the case of Tiger Woods, for instance.

Examples of short-term pleasures might include eating to excess, taking illicit drugs and getting addicted, becoming an alcoholic, becoming a shopoholic, etc.

The Dalai Lama in The Art of Happiness notes that education and knowledge about what creates long-term happiness is really important because people can spend lots of time on things that makes them happy in the short-term but dissolves in the long-term.

With that in mind (or rejecting that if you choose), how can you know if a short-term "happy" event will lead to a longer term happiness?

[Roo]

I don't think there's such a thing as 'happiness'. I'd see that more as a catch-all term for a number of things which are much more concrete. At one end there's contentment and at the other end there are things like joy and excitement. One thing I've noticed is that people often seem to assume that happiness is only about the active end of the scale and that if they are not experiencing those things then by default they are not happy. I don't know if this is something we naturally feel but it's certainly an idea that is bolstered by the media where emotions are not interesting unless they are extreme.
Interesting that you feel that there's no such thing as happiness.

Could you give an example of something more concrete? Or is that what you meant by contentment? If so, how do you measure contentment?

Your scale appears to go from contentment to joy and excitement. How about the negative emotions like fear, anger, jealous and hate? Can you be happy or content while experiencing negative emotions also?

[severe delays]

Well I was talking purely about the happiness scale there and not about negative emotions. And what I meant by 'no such thing as happiness' is that I don't think it is a thing by itself. It is a label for different things, a collective noun for positive emotions if you like. So contentment and joy are like bananas and apples and happiness is like fruit. With me?

I don't feel a need to measure such things. Emotional perspective is subjective so there is no possibility of a standardised scale. I suppose if one were the type of person to niggle away at such things one might twist and turn all types of logic around to try to fit. And never be satisfied with the result. Me, I'm content to not particularly care and to play mah jong. :)

[NoClueBoy]

... a large rubbery bovine.

[Roo]

I don't feel a need to measure such things. Emotional perspective is subjective so there is no possibility of a standardised scale. I suppose if one were the type of person to niggle away at such things one might twist and turn all types of logic around to try to fit. And never be satisfied with the result. Me, I'm content to not particularly care and to play mah jong. :)
It's good that works for you.

For purposes of this thread, you might agree with:

Eric Hoffer: “The search for happiness is one of the chief sources of unhappiness.”

John Stuart Mill: “Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so.”

which are two quotes from Gretchen Rubin's blog that she labels as "happiness theories I reject". I'd have to agree with her. I think that there have been many books published in the last decade analyzing happiness and different ways of obtaining it. IMO, they've made great contributions to helping many people find happiness that might not otherwise have.

[Islander]

One of our founding documents talks, not about happiness but about its pursuit. We may pursue it in a thousand different ways, define it differently, and sometimes not recognize it until it's gone. In fact, certain people seem only to recognize its absence, never its presence.

I think "happiness" is a shape-shifter. Less than euphoria, better than boredom, hovering around contentment. When I drive to work on a back road in the early morning, through fields and woods, when the sky is that intense blue that's so hard to describe, and I see wildlife along the way going about their business, I recognize happiness and feel a sense of gratefulness that I am where I am in that moment. Or when I'm so involved in a project or activity that demands my total attention and focus, and I'm so engrossed in it that I lose all sense of time—I think the current word for that is "flow"—I could define happiness that way. But it's a moving target, ephemeral, devoutly to be pursued in the knowledge that it's transitory. It's not possible always to be happy, yet it's one of life's jewels.

There. I didn't mean that to sound so maudlin. The Giraffe Board makes me happy. Good example?

[beebs]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[Roo]

One of our founding documents talks, not about happiness but about its pursuit. We may pursue it in a thousand different ways, define it differently, and sometimes not recognize it until it's gone. In fact, certain people seem only to recognize its absence, never its presence.
Your words reminded me of these quotes on the blog:
“What a wonderful life I’ve had! I only wish I’d realized it sooner.” Colette
“There is no duty we so much underrate as the duty of being happy.” Robert Louis Stevenson
Apparently, some people feel that it's a duty, not just a right. Do you agree?

I think "happiness" is a shape-shifter. Less than euphoria, better than boredom, hovering around contentment. When I drive to work on a back road in the early morning, through fields and woods, when the sky is that intense blue that's so hard to describe, and I see wildlife along the way going about their business, I recognize happiness and feel a sense of gratefulness that I am where I am in that moment. Or when I'm so involved in a project or activity that demands my total attention and focus, and I'm so engrossed in it that I lose all sense of time—I think the current word for that is "flow"—I could define happiness that way. But it's a moving target, ephemeral, devoutly to be pursued in the knowledge that it's transitory. It's not possible always to be happy, yet it's one of life's jewels.
Is it the pursuit that makes us happy or the attainment? Must it be transitory?

Pema Chodron and Matthieu Ricard, a Buddhist nun and monk, both claim to be happy. But they define happiness as contentment and fulfillment. Ricard's video also shows scientific studies which claim that the years of meditating have allowed their happiness setpoint, measured by certain neurons firing in the brain, to be raised so their level of happiness is higher than the average person. Is raising the happiness setpoint at a higher level desirable, or would that just make the transitory nature of happiness more elusive?

There. I didn't mean that to sound so maudlin. The Giraffe Board makes me happy. Good example?
Always? Wouldn't your enjoyment of The Giraffe Board be just as transitory and fleeting as the rest of happiness?

[Roo]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
What are the absolutes in regards to the topic of happiness?

[Bodhiman]

The Dalai Lama in The Art of Happiness notes that education and knowledge about what creates long-term happiness is really important because people can spend lots of time on things that makes them happy in the short-term but dissolves in the long-term.

I'm reading that right now. What a great book!
Okay, carry on with interesting commentary.

[Islander]

Apparently, some people feel that it's a duty, not just a right. Do you agree?

Certainly not. A duty is an obligation, a requirement, a task. I certainly have no obligation to attain something I'm not even sure I can define. Like obscenity, I know it when I see it, but when I try to pin it down with words it becomes elusive. Nor do I have a duty to make my spouse or children happy. Again, if I can't define it, how can I apply it to others? I have a duty to see to their well-being; happiness is up to them.

Is it the pursuit that makes us happy or the attainment? Must it be transitory?

I'm glad you paired these questions because one follows upon the other.
In a lot of cases, the journey is more important than the destination; the hunt is more pleasurable than the success at the end. I'm not convinced that it applies in this case. F'r'instance, getting together with my geographically scattered family makes me happy. The journey—all the hassles of flying—does not. And because we're separated by distance, the happy times must be transitory. Again, weeding my garden is a backbreaking task, but the pleasure of seeing weed-free rows makes me happy. Very transitory. Weeds come back soon.

Sometimes the journey and the destination may be the same. One of the things I enjoy is a leisurely drive through the country on a perfect sunny day. Journey and destination are the same.

I think by any definition I can assign it, happiness is by nature transitory. The human condition does not lend itself to continued bliss; utopias never succeed. Chemistry doesn't deliver a permanent state of happiness. Prozac may keep yoou stable but happiness is only an occasional side effect.

Pema Chodron and Matthieu Ricard, a Buddhist nun and monk, both claim to be happy. But they define happiness as contentment and fulfillment. Ricard's video also shows scientific studies which claim that the years of meditating have allowed their happiness setpoint, measured by certain neurons firing in the brain, to be raised so their level of happiness is higher than the average person. Is raising the happiness setpoint at a higher level desirable, or would that just make the transitory nature of happiness more elusive?

Hmmm. If I had the leisure (and the desire) to devote my life to meditation and contemplation, I might indeed arrive at a state of continued contentment or fulfillment. But I can visualize that as a level which moments of true happiness transcend. We could continue in this vein but it feels to me like those arguments about angels on the head of a pin. It's all subjective.

Always? Wouldn't your enjoyment of The Giraffe Board be just as transitory and fleeting as the rest of happiness?

Why yes, by definition, since I only get here once a day as a rule, and not always every day. When I'm here, I'm invariably happy. Kinda like going to my favorite pub for a pint or two with friends.

[HongKongFooey]

Hmmm. If I had the leisure (and the desire) to devote my life to meditation and contemplation, I might indeed arrive at a state of continued contentment or fulfillment.It'd be easy to be serene on the side of a mountain retreat wouldn't it? The real test is whether you can maintain that tranquility in the chaos of Manhattan, an emergency room, Haiti.

It's like the story of the monk falling over a steep cliff and, whilst falling, catching a glimpse of a flower and noting how beautiful it is before plummeting to his demise.

[WednesdayAddams]

I don't think there's such a thing as 'happiness'. I'd see that more as a catch-all term for a number of things which are much more concrete. At one end there's contentment and at the other end there are things like joy and excitement. One thing I've noticed is that people often seem to assume that happiness is only about the active end of the scale and that if they are not experiencing those things then by default they are not happy. I don't know if this is something we naturally feel but it's certainly an idea that is bolstered by the media where emotions are not interesting unless they are extreme.
I think this is a good synopsis. I think 'happiness' can be judged as an overall state of being ('are you happy?' 'for the most part, yeah.') and can't really be judged moment to moment. It seems that it's also measured in retrospect more than as a current state of being.

[NoClueBoy]

For me, happiness is related to joy. Joy can come from either inside or out, but it is only joy if you choose it to be. Happiness is a general state, where joy is an instant (long or short). Accepting a joy may still not lead to happiness, but accepting more joy(s) will lead to a state of content peace, which seems to be happiness.

[IronHorse]

I think happiness is really rather relative. If you've been feeling really bad for a while, just a let up of that can feel almost euphoric. Yet, when I'm feeling normal, the slight twinge of anxiety I felt when I tried to talk to people was enough to put me in sour mood.

I really had no idea how happy I was before, until I hit this alternating depression and anxiety I've been experiencing since the doctors tried to change my antidepressant.

[Wolf Larsen]

Happiness is a neurological event.

[Roo]

I'm reading that right now. What a great book!
Okay, carry on with interesting commentary.
Please start a thread on it when you're done. Please, please, please. I love that book. And I'd love to discuss it with someone.

[Roo]

Certainly not. A duty is an obligation, a requirement, a task. I certainly have no obligation to attain something I'm not even sure I can define. Like obscenity, I know it when I see it, but when I try to pin it down with words it becomes elusive. Nor do I have a duty to make my spouse or children happy. Again, if I can't define it, how can I apply it to others? I have a duty to see to their well-being; happiness is up to them.
One of the author's maxims is:
Second: One of the best ways to make yourself happy is to make other people happy; One of the best ways to make other people happy is to be happy yourself.
I've heard that just slightly differently. Something like: The best gift you can give someone else is to be happy yourself.

When you talk about happiness, you sound like you're talking about something different than what some of these other people are talking about. Those maxims don't seem to mean that kind of transitory experience but more of an overall personality style. So maybe the quotes are talking about something different than you are. . . another challenge in defining the word.

I think by any definition I can assign it, happiness is by nature transitory. The human condition does not lend itself to continued bliss; utopias never succeed.
It looks like you've equated happiness with bliss. And both are transitory.

Yet, as to The Giraffe Boards, you say:
Why yes, by definition, since I only get here once a day as a rule, and not always every day. When I'm here, I'm invariably happy. Kinda like going to my favorite pub for a pint or two with friends.
Is that happiness not subject to the same rules of being transitory? Wouldn't it be as variable as the rest of things that cause happiness? If you can find one thing that invariably brings happiness (which you've given as GB), can you then find others and fill your day with them to make it non-stop bliss?

Hmmm. If I had the leisure (and the desire) to devote my life to meditation and contemplation, I might indeed arrive at a state of continued contentment or fulfillment. But I can visualize that as a level which moments of true happiness transcend. We could continue in this vein but it feels to me like those arguments about angels on the head of a pin. It's all subjective.
Well, if you believe the research done with Matthieu Ricard and some of the other monks, that they feel happiness as their brains' are being scanned and that the changes in their brains' indicate this, then there's other research to indicate that it can be duplicated on a lesser level with other people.

In the Matthieu Ricard video on YouTube, he gives the results of a study done on people in a biotech company. They had a group of people who were trained in meditation for 3 months and a control group who weren't. After 3 months, the people trained in meditation showed more of the brain activity that was reported by the monks when they were responding that they were happy. So supposedly, people with very busy, hectic lives who undergo some amount of meditation training for 3 months were able to increase their brain activity indicating their increased happiness.

As Mattheiu Ricard points out, and you rightly noted, if all the study showed was that a monk could increase their happiness, that's just a curiosity, but the studies are intending to show that it can be applied to the average person with a very busy life, and that it can be included in their life without changing their activity level.

[Roo]

It'd be easy to be serene on the side of a mountain retreat wouldn't it? The real test is whether you can maintain that tranquility in the chaos of Manhattan, an emergency room, Haiti.
And that's exactly the point.

One of the people who has teamed up with Matthieu Ricard to do research on these topics is Jon Kabat-Zinn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn). Kabat-Zinn was the director of a stress reduction clinic at the University of Massachusetts Medical School. He used mindfulness techniques which are basically secularized meditation from the Buddhist tradition to help thousands of people from all walks of life with problems ranging from AIDS to cancer to heart disease to anxiety to help them deal with their difficulties. His studies show that these techniques have some healing properties, for instance on a study he did with psoriasis. It's not anything like a miracle cure or anything like that. But reducing the stress does allow some healing to take place that might not have otherwise, it seems.

He writes about the mindfulness training in Full Catastrophe Living (http://www.amazon.com/Full-Catastrophe-Living-Wisdom-Illness/dp/0385303122/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264393351&sr=8-1). He gave some information about his research studies to a group at Google (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSU8ftmmhmw) and later, led a group at Google in a meditation session (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nwwKbM_vJc).

Based on Jon Kabat-Zinn's experiences at his stress reduction clinic and his research on mindfulness, he seems to conclude that secular meditation can help the average person, both to heal and to be happier.

[HongKongFooey]

I like Thich Nhat Hahn's writings on mindfulness but can't say exactly that I've researched the topic. Some of it sticks, some of it doesn't.

[Roo]

I think 'happiness' can be judged as an overall state of being ('are you happy?' 'for the most part, yeah.') and can't really be judged moment to moment. It seems that it's also measured in retrospect more than as a current state of being.
So, you can't tell how happy you are right now?

[Roo]

For me, happiness is related to joy. Joy can come from either inside or out, but it is only joy if you choose it to be. Happiness is a general state, where joy is an instant (long or short). Accepting a joy may still not lead to happiness, but accepting more joy(s) will lead to a state of content peace, which seems to be happiness.
Can you create joy? Reliably?

[Fenris]

CHARLIE BROWN
I'm so happy. That little red-headed gril dropped her pencil.
It has teeth marks all over it. She nibbles her pencil.
She's human! It hasn't been such a bad day after all.
Happiness is finding a pencil

SNOOPY
Pizza with sausage

LINUS
Telling the time

SCHROEDER
Happiness is learning to whistle

LINUS
Tying you shoe
For the very first time.

SALLY
Happiness is playing the drum
In your own school band.

CHARLIE BROWN
And happiness is walking hand in hand.
Happiness is two kinds of ice cream...

LUCY
Knowing a secret...

SCHROEDER
Climbing a tree.

CHARLIE BROWN
Happiness is five dif'rent crayons...

SCHROEDER
Catching a firefly...
Setting him free.

CHARLIE BROWN
Happiness is being alone ev'ry now and then.

ALL
And happiness is coming home again.

CHARLIE BROWN
Happiness is morning and evening,
Daytime and nighttime too.
For happiness is anyone and anything at all
That's loved by you.

LINUS
Happiness is having a sister

LUCY
Sharing a sandwich

LUCY AND LINUS
Getting along-

ALL
Happiness is singing together when day is through.
And happiness is those who sing with you.
Happiness is morning and evening,
Daytime and nighttime, too,

CHARLIE BROWN
For happiness is anyone and anything at all
That's loved by you.

LUCY
You're a good man, Charlie Brown.

[Roo]

I think happiness is really rather relative. If you've been feeling really bad for a while, just a let up of that can feel almost euphoric. Yet, when I'm feeling normal, the slight twinge of anxiety I felt when I tried to talk to people was enough to put me in sour mood.

I really had no idea how happy I was before, until I hit this alternating depression and anxiety I've been experiencing since the doctors tried to change my antidepressant.

Happiness is a neurological event.
So if you change the chemicals in the brain or were able to create the neurological event, could you attain increased happiness over an extended period of time?

I think that the happiness movement started in response to some of these questions. When people in the medical profession saw some people struggling with depression, they wondered how they could help them to be happier. And then people asked, if that works for people with depression, can it help an average person feel even happier? So there's books like Authentic Happiness by Martin Seligman, who studied what makes people happier.

But then other people in other fields took it farther by studying what's actually going on in the brain when the increase in happiness takes place. And although it still seems to be in its infancy about what they can conclude, there seems to be some research that indicates that people can create more happiness for themselves by doing certain things.

So now, there's a slew of books about what these things are, books like: The How of Happiness (http://www.amazon.com/How-Happiness-Scientific-Approach-Getting/dp/159420148X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264395615&sr=8-1)by Sonja Lyubomirsky and Happier (http://www.amazon.com/Happier-Learn-Secrets-Lasting-Fulfillment/dp/0071492399/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264395680&sr=1-1) by Tal Ben-Shahar, both academics who have done studies on what activities make people happier.

[WednesdayAddams]

So, you can't tell how happy you are right now?
Not without thinking about it. People don't usually stop in the middle of what they're doing and think 'wow, I'm really happy right now.' They just are. It's usually a look back and the realization 'wow, I was really happy right then.'

So if you change the chemicals in the brain or were able to create the neurological event, could you attain increased happiness over an extended period of time?
The anti-depressant market seems to be doing a thriving business based on that assertion, yes.

[Roo]

For happiness is anyone and anything at all
That's loved by you.
I'm not exactly sure what you were trying to get at in this post, but this seems to sum up the sentiments of the passage.

And it seems to beg the question. If happiness is anything or anyone you love, then that just leaves you to define love, which is a much more vague, nebulous and expansive word than happiness. Most people know when they're happy. Love can describe so many things that it's hard to know it as a state.

Happiness is finding a pencil
Pizza with sausage
Telling the time
Happiness is learning to whistle
Tying you shoe For the very first time.
Happiness is playing the drum In your own school band.
And happiness is walking hand in hand.
Happiness is two kinds of ice cream...
Knowing a secret...
Climbing a tree.
Happiness is five dif'rent crayons...
Catching a firefly...Setting him free.
Happiness is being alone ev'ry now and then.
And happiness is coming home again.
Happiness is morning and evening, Daytime and nighttime too.
For happiness is anyone and anything at all That's loved by you.
Happiness is having a sister
Sharing a sandwich
Getting along-
Happiness is singing together when day is through.
And happiness is those who sing with you.
Happiness is morning and evening, Daytime and nighttime, too,
This is a pretty good list that encompasses lots of different ways that people have become happy, from achievement to compassion to pleasure to gratitude. In the book The How of Happiness, many of these have been categorized by the different types to help people find more of the things on the list of things that might make them happy. It is touted as being backed by scientific research as one of its selling points.

The list reminds me, though, that every person has a different list. There's a book called 14,000 Things to be Happy About (http://www.amazon.com/14-000-Things-Happy-About/dp/0761147217/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264449131&sr=8-2). As I perused the book, I was often struck by how many of the things would appall me or I would find unhappy or just plain boring. So while lists can be nice reminders, I don't think they define happiness since everyone has a different list.

[Islander]

So...we have definitions and we have lists, and they all differ. AFAIC, we've wrung all the juice we can out of this topic and anything more will just be redundant. Now I will happily put an end to my part of the conversation. :)

Good topic, Roo.

[NoClueBoy]

Good topic, Roo.


Makes me happy.

[dogbutler]

What is happiness?
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.-Conan the Barbarian

[Chacoguy]

What is happiness?
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.-Conan the Barbarian

That, was beautiful.

::Wipes tear::

[NoClueBoy]

He gives water to the dead!

[Roo]

So...we have definitions and we have lists, and they all differ.
What I meant by that is that lists can show what makes one person happy, but it can't be a definition of what makes groups of people happy since everyone has different lists.

AFAIC, we've wrung all the juice we can out of this topic and anything more will just be redundant. Now I will happily put an end to my part of the conversation. :)
I must have written the OP badly because this is just the head of the pin sitting on the tip of an iceberg in terms of how much there is to discuss on this topic. It's a huge topic and many people have concentrated large parts of their careers just on defining and writing about happiness.

Thanks for participating.

Good topic, Roo.
I hope it made you at least a little happy since it's part of The Giraffe Boards experience for you.

[Roo]

Oops, missed this. Sorry
Not without thinking about it. People don't usually stop in the middle of what they're doing and think 'wow, I'm really happy right now.' They just are. It's usually a look back and the realization 'wow, I was really happy right then.'
So, do most people stop and take the time to look back and notice that they're happy?

I think it's the stopping that counts, whether it's in the moment that one is happy or looking back at it. One of the points of mindfulness training is that many people don't stop and notice what's going on. Jon Kabat-Zinn jokes that most people are already in the office when they're in the shower and there's a whole table full of people in the shower with them. Because most people are thinking about what's going to happen in the day or going back over what happened before, in a planning or analytical mode, instead of being aware of what they're doing right at that moment.
Books like The Power of Now (which I haven't read) by Eckhart Tolle is supposed to be about enjoying bliss in the moment.


The anti-depressant market seems to be doing a thriving business based on that assertion, yes.
You probably know more about this, but it was my understanding that anti-depressants only work on those people who are depressed. They don't make otherwise happy people happier. I thought that the neurological event that it produces doesn't produce a constant state of happiness; it just reduces the low points of someone who is depressed.

[Roo]

What is happiness?
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.-Conan the Barbarian
I was hoping that someone would mention something like this. I'm more interested in those definitions of happiness that are confounding, like this. For instance, some people say that it makes them happy to follow God. I don't know what that means, but it's interesting.

Daniel Gilbert writes about siamese twins who are joined at the forehead. They assert that they are very happy and claim that they would be less happy if they were separated. I guess that can be explained by the fact that they don't know any different. But many people who don't know any life different than the life they have are very unhappy.

He then goes on to talk about how people are notoriously bad at predicting what situations would make them happier. He contrasts Adolph Fischer and George Eastman, one was a rich entrepreneur and the other a relatively poor person falsely accused of a crime. But the one falsely accused of the crime went to his death happily (the Haymarket martyr) and the rich entrepreneur killed himself. His point was that it's difficult to predict what situations people will consider as happy.

[Tamsen]

In the simplest of terms, for me: happiness = satisfied.

[elbows]

Happiness is not something you seek like a lost sock.

It's not something you consume like potato chips.

Happiness is something you make.

The greatest sin in life, in my humble opinion, is consuming happiness without producing it.

[WormTheRed]

Happiness is waking up on a Saturday morning, all snuggled up with your SO under warm blankets and wake her up with kisses.

Very good thread!

[WednesdayAddams]

You probably know more about this, but it was my understanding that anti-depressants only work on those people who are depressed. They don't make otherwise happy people happier. I thought that the neurological event that it produces doesn't produce a constant state of happiness; it just reduces the low points of someone who is depressed.
Thus allowing them a more even emotional experience, as opposed to a roller coaster. It's easier to attain 'happy' from neutral than it is from depressed. In addition, 'happy' is not and will never be a constant state. No one is blissed 24/7.

[Roo]

In the simplest of terms, for me: happiness = satisfied.
That's great that it works for you. And if it does, stick with it.

Can you create things that satisfy you pretty reliably?

The rest of my post here is not directed at you since you've found something that works, but just more discussion in general.

For many people, they find satisfaction which leads to happiness, but the next time they seek it, they're not content with the same level, so they have to get more, whether it's more money, more food or anything else, just whatever made them happy before but more of it. And they keep chasing the more. Until at some point, the chasing more causes more unhappiness than the original source of happiness. So for instance, they might get really fat or become a workaholic or shift to some other unbalanced state as they move to whatever the source of original satisfaction was. So for many people, the feeling of satisfaction doesn't lead to long-term happiness, just a short-term situation that leads to more unhappiness in the future.

[Roo]

Happiness is not something you seek like a lost sock.

It's not something you consume like potato chips.

Happiness is something you make.

The greatest sin in life, in my humble opinion, is consuming happiness without producing it.
That's really interesting. How do you make/produce it?

[Roo]

Happiness is waking up on a Saturday morning, all snuggled up with your SO under warm blankets and wake her up with kisses.

Very good thread!
Sounds wonderful. . . for you!

Thanks to you and the other people who participated for making it a good thread.

[Islander]

For many people, they find satisfaction which leads to happiness, but the next time they seek it, they're not content with the same level, so they have to get more, whether it's more money, more food or anything else, just whatever made them happy before but more of it. And they keep chasing the more. Until at some point, the chasing more causes more unhappiness than the original source of happiness. So for instance, they might get really fat or become a workaholic or shift to some other unbalanced state as they move to whatever the source of original satisfaction was. So for many people, the feeling of satisfaction doesn't lead to long-term happiness, just a short-term situation that leads to more unhappiness in the future.

I think you just summarized Buddhism.

[Roo]

Thus allowing them a more even emotional experience, as opposed to a roller coaster. It's easier to attain 'happy' from neutral than it is from depressed.
I'm not so sure about that. I've read that some people define happiness, among other things, as the absence of anxiety or depression. In that case, it's easier to feel happy from the lack of depression, even if it's transitory.

In addition, 'happy' is not and will never be a constant state. No one is blissed 24/7.
So that goes back to how you define it. For some Buddhist monks such as Matthieu Ricard, as noted in some of the earlier posts in this thread, he defines happiness in a way that he maintains that he's happy all the time. He defines happiness as having a purpose or meaning in life.

Some people have taken what Victor Frankl is quoted as saying, "The last of human freedoms - the ability to choose one's attitude in a given set of circumstances" to mean that you can choose happiness at every moment.

Here's a quote from the Happiness Club (http://happinessclub.com/). "You can be Happy right now and for every moment to come for the rest of your life."

Again, I'm not sure how they're defining happiness in that context.

One of the questions I had in mind when I wrote the OP was whether you could change the definition of happiness so much that it really isn't happiness at all. . . just some contorted view of happiness that you're calling happiness. Like if Victor Frankl maintained that he was happy in the concentration camps. Would that really be happiness? But since happiness is subjective, how could we argue that it's not?

In the case of Matthieu Ricard, though, there are actual brain scans of his brain that show that the parts of his brain that would normally indicate happiness is significantly more active when he meditates and when he decides to go into that state, so that's at least some evidence that he really does have the same feeling that most people have when they say that they're happy.

[elbows]

"That's really interesting. How do you make/produce it?"

It's really not hard. Stop focusing on your own happiness and it gets a lot easier.

Bring whatever happiness you can to the ones around you and you'll find yourself with an unlimited supply!

[boomerwang]

I believe happiness (as opposed to joy, contentment, etc) is the Buddhist-esque idea of breaking off from yourself, your ego. Seeing beyond the dashboard and being aware, in the moment. But if you snatch at it, you've already lost it. Bitch of a thing to nail down, basically.

[WednesdayAddams]

Interesting perspective on a recent TED Talk (http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory .html).

[GoSmoke]

Happiness is different for everyone,so I am not sure it can be quantified in any meaningful way. Something that makes me happy may not make someone else happy. For example,if someone gave me tickets and pit passes for the Daytona 500,that would me very happy. If someone gave me all that plus an all access pass to Tony Stewart's garage,well,then,I would literally die of happiness. For someone else,this might not be something they would like at all.
Happiness is subjective,IMHO. What makes one person happy isn't going to make the next person happy.

[Pamplemousse!]

I think happiness requires too many endorphins to properly persist as an ongoing state... but I'm decidedly content.

I measure that by how I feel when I think about my life. I don't want to change my house (well, aside from decoratively, which is more of a 'fun' project kind of thing), my job (except perhaps to make it more complex, rather than less), or my friends.

I could certainly stand to change a few family members, but I think they're within tolerance levels for 'content'. ;)

Having been extremely unhappy on more than one occasion in my life, I realise how great it is that I'm actually pleased with what and who I have in my life - and that when I awake, I look forward to the day ahead. That's probably as close to ongoing happiness as is possible without the aid of pharmaceuticals.

[Chacoguy]

I think happiness requires too many endorphins to properly persist as an ongoing state... but I'm decidedly content.

I measure that by how I feel when I think about my life. I don't want to change my house (well, aside from decoratively, which is more of a 'fun' project kind of thing), my job (except perhaps to make it more complex, rather than less), or my friends.

I could certainly stand to change a few family members, but I think they're within tolerance levels for 'content'. ;)

Having been extremely unhappy on more than one occasion in my life, I realise how great it is that I'm actually pleased with what and who I have in my life - and that when I awake, I look forward to the day ahead. That's probably as close to ongoing happiness as is possible without the aid of pharmaceuticals.

That's pretty close. It's kind of like when you've been sick for a while and then you get better. There's a while there where you catch yourself marveling at just how wonderful normal feels.




That, or it's the same sensation that you have floating effortlessly downstream.

[Anacanapuna]

Leave it to Roo to start a thread on happiness. Bless you, child, for your irrepressible optimism and complete lack of cynicism.

Happiness is a warm puppy. With a cold nose. That barks incessantly at night. And pees on the new carpet. But at the end of the day, when he sleeps on your chest, he makes you happy.

Many, many years ago I talked with a very wise man who told me, "Happiness is not a destination, it's the road you travel." It just depends on how you see life. I am delighted occasionally by those around me and have delicious memories of my past and exciting expectations of my future. I am happy.

[Roo]

Interesting perspective on a recent TED Talk (http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_kahneman_the_riddle_of_experience_vs_memory .html).
That was interesting. Thanks for posting it. I didn't get why the guy who was famous for his theories on behavioral economics was talking about happiness. Was there a connection that was in context?

I thought that the point about experiential happiness and remembered happiness being different seemed to be pretty obvious. I'm sure we can all remember times when going through something that was really difficult but we remember it with fondness because it got us closer to a goal. He didn't address how or whether experiential happiness and remembered happiness can converge.

I remember a time when I was on the middle of a snowy slope skiing and I told myself to remember the moment. . .and I have. Was that an experiential moment that I turned into a remembered moment? Is that possible?

What are the implications of them being different? Can we manipulate the remembered moments as he tried to explain with the colonoscopy example?

I also thought it was a little odd at the question/answer part where he said that the baseline income for happiness was $60K for the US. Wouldn't that depend on the cost of living in your area? Or is that the lowest level denominator? Like if you're happy with $60K in LA or NY, then you'd be really happy with that in Podunk or somewhere like that.

ETA: I forgot to add that I think that this video reminded me of Daniel Gilbert's Stumbling on Happiness book again. He basically shows why it's so difficult to attain happiness because of the way brains function such as the adaptive abilities and the capabilities of filling in the blanks but its inability to predict happiness since it can only extrapolate from the past.

[Chacoguy]

"Happiness is not a destination, it's the road you travel." It just depends on how you see life. I am delighted occasionally by those around me and have delicious memories of my past and exciting expectations of my future. I am happy.

<Ding>
<Ding>
<Ding>

Happiness is a Verb.

[Anacanapuna]

Um, no, I'm pretty sure it's an adjective (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/happy), because it modifies a noun.

[Uthrecht]

Shows what you know. Modify is a verb. Ergo, happiness is a verb by the cognitive transitive dissonant property.

[Pamplemousse!]

Ergo, happiness is a verb by the cognitive transitive dissonant property.That sentence gives me a cognitive transitive dissonant property.


Happiness is a headache? That doesn't seem right.

[Uthrecht]

Pamplemousse is a verb!

[WednesdayAddams]

I thought pamplemousse was a fruit.

[Jeff]

No insults in the debates forum, please.

/mod kilt off

[WednesdayAddams]

That was interesting. Thanks for posting it. I didn't get why the guy who was famous for his theories on behavioral economics was talking about happiness. Was there a connection that was in context?
He started off as a psychologist in cognitive studies and judgment and decision making. Making good decisions and being aware of what affects your life and how does tie into happiness, I think.

I thought that the point about experiential happiness and remembered happiness being different seemed to be pretty obvious. I'm sure we can all remember times when going through something that was really difficult but we remember it with fondness because it got us closer to a goal. He didn't address how or whether experiential happiness and remembered happiness can converge.I don't know that it's obvious to everyone though. People see things through a lens and realize much later that they were happy. But were they? It's happiness remembered through the lens of time and distance.

Unfortunately, TED talks tend to be a little shorter than a full lecture. I would have enjoyed hearing him expound on the theory as well.

I remember a time when I was on the middle of a snowy slope skiing and I told myself to remember the moment. . .and I have. Was that an experiential moment that I turned into a remembered moment? Is that possible?I think so. I've done the same thing. Looked around and thought 'this will be a moment I remember for the rest of my life.' Those moments have stuck with me; everything from the color of shirt I was wearing to the way the air smelled.

[Pamplemousse!]

Pamplemousse is a verb!

I thought pamplemousse was a fruit.It's only a verb if you do it right. :D

[WednesdayAddams]

No insults in the debates forum, please.

/mod kilt off
Dude! (http://www2.educ.usherbrooke.ca/projets/fpt223-06/proj619/Jeux/mots_croises/salade/pamplemousse.gif)

[Jeff]

Dude! (http://www2.educ.usherbrooke.ca/projets/fpt223-06/proj619/Jeux/mots_croises/salade/pamplemousse.gif)

Oui madame, c'est une gros pamplemousse.

If Jack Kerouac and Sal Paradise taught me anything, happiness is jazz, a life spent in a state of inarticulate exhiliration, driving all night cross-country, benzedrine, hitch-hiking and mexican girls.

[Xploder]

Dammit...I waded through this whole thread just to post that happiness is a guilt free blowjob.

Never mind now.

:mad:

[WednesdayAddams]

It's still a good answer. :p

[Chacoguy]

Dammit...I waded through this whole thread just to post that happiness is a guilt free blowjob.


See? Verb. ;)