[Kaiveran]

I was going to start from my last pre-wall post, but upon peeking up earlier it appears that there are a few things that might require closer attention.

Originally Posted by Meeko

What if all of our power roles have drawbacks?

The House scum always wins.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. But given the theming, it doesn't seem implausible that many roles would have a little something left to chance, a little banana coco if you will, that adds a little variance to things and keeps us on our toes.

The host still wouldn't be lying – there'd still be no actual gambling in the game, because there's none of the active guessing, the punctus contra punctus that is the soul of gambling. But Lady Luck would still leave a subtle mark.

Originally Posted by Meeko

This kinda puts me in an awkward spot. Those that know my pet peeves either have already guessed what I am up against here. If not, I will spell it out, by asking someone who can't possibly know, directly.

Kaiveran What is your personal opinion, in general, and not informed by this game, of the concept of a "Mass Claim" ? ((I've been wanting to you ask you this, since well, I saw that we had a "new" to us player, that is not tarnished by how we do things around here. I wanted to ask you this, but figured I had to wait, because I abhor the entire thing.

However, now, I do believe we need to at least ask ourselves, and look at, if we are at needs must.

Kai specifically, and then the rest of the game at large [Because, I already know what the rest of the players are going to say here, at least by consensus.] ...... What do we think of mass claiming in this game. --- Further informed by the fact that we have in evidence multiple roles that are informed by probabilities?

@Meeko
I believe I went into this in one of my posts before my previous wall, but it bears repeating:

Normally I would be opposed to a massclaim this early. However, given that the current gamestate might be 3:1:7, and the worst-case scenario leaves us at a nasty loss-of-majority situation at 3:1:4, I think it's a good move, especially given the wolves are the biggest fish any H3P has to fry here (i.e they probably won't be shooting at our PRs right along with the wolves.)

However, for a massclaim to really achieve the benefits for town that it's supposed to achieve, the majority of players really have to be on the same page about it, so that we have the proper discipline to organize/optimize the claim process, and I don't think that's the reality of the situation right now.

Originally Posted by Meeko

Finally

I must entertain the fact that if we have losing power roles... we must have the Advantage Players / Card Counters / Card Sharps/Sharks in the audience.

Well, as a corollary to the above, if the consensus does continue to be anti-massclaim (that is, we do want to keep the identity of our remaining Blues under wraps) I think we want to limit the amount of claims in general.

Which is a point of doubt I have with you, btw. Even if you're lying about your vanilla claim, having one out there allows scum to make a read on you to a point.

Originally Posted by Meeko

NETA :

How does a Town Hider on Night 1 differ from a NI Town Vig shot?

But a Vig could leave a crumb too.

Yeah. We have a Super town power in this game. It probably moves my desire to want a mass claim [[What the hell is Meeko smoking, he wants to mass claim?!]] back to at least neutral, if doing so were to mean that we lose an ""advantage"". We should not be outing a Town power role that has amazing (and at this point, sorely needed) power.

Well, the first is a bit nonsensical. Hider is functionally very different from Vigilante, it's like a Cop who can sorta self-protect and can get unlimited innos, but only one guilt. I think I see a glimmer of the logic here, but "getting a wolf dead" isn't a vigi-exclusive action, you can indicate someone is lock wolf through means of other powers. Or you can just be an awesome enough vanillager to slay the wolves without any of that (but this dimension of the game probably isn't your concern in this post.)

On the other hand, this conclusions probably indicates that you needed to go through this whole messy process to feel out and solidify your position on the whoel situation.

I can empathize because I was once much messier and noisier than I am now (if a bit less verbose).

Originally Posted by Meeko

On a deeper level here, how did you read mine, and arrive at the fact that I was actively pushing for a claim? I thought I bent over backwards to stress that I was, at best, ambivalent, about the entire thing.

This could be a good point against guiri, BUTT if you click on the little blue arrow and read the whole exchange with Meeko, the progression here looks genuine enough. Sigh...

It's always tempting, but I try not to "lock in" too much anymore. Not in the absence of mechanical info. There needs to be some sort of openness to look at the other side of things, otherwise you can blow all your goodwill and credibility on one wrong bet, and that's just -EV for town in general – never might at what might be (essentially) the Day before ELo.

Let the devil have advocates, as long you effectively weigh their testimony against the prosecution.

Originally Posted by Meeko

OOG

This phrasing.

This, you may never know how much this strikes at / touches some deep hidden thing in me. It gets at me in a primal way.

Please tell me that this phrasing is not your own, and by virtue of that, there is some book or other work that you can link me to.

Because, damn, if you are speaking to Abstraction. Damn if I cannot do that. As my various Comp Sci professors would inform.

Like, I think there is something fundamentally off with me, as far as being able to see trees for the forest. [[Or the other way around here, Again, I suck at all of it, so I could be holding the baseball bat upside down here, you know?]]

Well (in this game at least) you might just have to get used to it.

I dunno about guiri, but I think it should be pretty clear by now that I'm a big theorist, and I live in the figurative most of the time.

Talk about "comparing/exploring/different worlds" has become pretty common in the greater IM/UR sphere, besides, and upon encountering it I was one of many people who found it a good way to organize my thoughts on actual things going on the thread.

I know we all have our personal beliefs and habits and knee-jerk reactions, but try not to get caught up on appearances too much.

As to your subsequent musings, I always aim to relate my theorizing back to the facts on the ground. As papa Marx said, we cannot go from the heavens down to earth. My own "worldbuilding" aims to make sense of the events of the game and build reasonable conclusions and/or possibilities out of them.

If you feel I have failed to achieve that aim at any point during this game, feel free to call me out.

Preview Comment :: yuck, it's already an intimidating monster and I've barely reached the Page 1/2 divide. Splitting for legibility.