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#1
20th January 2010, 03:02 PM
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Introducing a kitten to a high-prey-drive but not aggressive dog
I'm thinking about getting a kitten. I have a very playful Rhodesian Ridgeback Zilla who never really learned to behave around cats. She's almost 4. My dearly departed littermate cats Poooka and Goblin were quite old when I got her, and they only lived a few more months before I had to have them put to sleep (about 8 weeks apart) at age 17. Zilla was very curious about the cats and I'm sure would have chased them if I let her, but she never seemed to want to hurt the cats.
Zilla has a strong prey drive in that she likes to chase anything that moves , but she is not aggressive to cats. Meaning that the few times she made physical contact with the old cats, she wanted to snorfle them, not hurt them. When we've occasionally encountered cats on our walks, if the cat didn't run, she was just very curious and didn't quite know what to make of it. If the cat ran, she would have chased if she weren't on leash. She also likes to play rough, but is easily intimidated in many ways. She's submissive to almost all other dogs, and her first inclination, if she meets a new person or animal or comes across something unfamiliar, is to first check it out, and then try to play with it. I suspect if a cat whacked her on the nose, even without claws, she'd be intimidated. She's getting pretty good at sitting when we see a squirrel on our walks, so I think she could learn to not chase cats - I'm just not sure how much work it is going to be or how long it will take. Both the breeder and my vet suggested getting a kitten rather than a cat because they felt that she's be more likely to 'adopt' the kitten as her own, and because kittens are often fearless and would be less likely to be scared of a big, bouncey 70-lb dog. My recently departed Elkhound Gizmo tried to chase my kitties when he was a pup, but I was able to easily train him to not do this. He was much less persistent than Zilla the beast, though, and of course it also made a big different that the cats were bigger than he was at first. He eventually considered the cats to be 'his' - he was still interested in chasing cats outside that were not 'his.' I found this article from a now-defunct rescue group that I think I will try. Basically it recommends having a separate room where the cat can stay behind closed doors when the dog is loose, and initially keeping the dog crated when the cat is out, and correcting the dog if there is any lunging at the cat. If there's not, eventually keep the dog on leash with a muzzle when the cat is out. If that goes well, on-leash with no muzzle, then ultimately off-leash. No playing chase games with the dog or the cat when both are out during the training period. If one step fails (i.e. dog tries to chase cat), then revert to an earlier step. Once trained, still have a room where the cat can escape from the dog if needed. So, please share your thoughts and experience related to introducing a kitten to an adult dog that doesn't know how to behave around cats. Said kitten will either come from a shelter or possibly from an 'oops' litter from one of my vet's other clients. (I may cross-post on the Durp just to get more opinions. Those opinions won't be nearly as good as yours, though.  )
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#2
20th January 2010, 03:11 PM
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Well, a kitten may not "know" to fear your dog, and could easily become BFF with it. As long as the dog was good-natured and not too rough.
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#3
20th January 2010, 03:50 PM
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 I've always just let the introductions happen slowly with kitty on my lap and someone else on the dog leash. Then the next few weeks are just staying on top of their interactions. All my dogs have figured it out eventually. We still have a bit of a problem with Walter the Pit and Fred the cat. They get along famously but Walter doesn't understand kitty doesn't like to be smothered 24/7. Of course Fred is now quite large and reminds Walter with a smack when he's had enough.
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#4
20th January 2010, 05:18 PM
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I second what 7 says. Let them get to know eachother in a look-but-don't-touch way; both reigned in so there's no running or chasing. Then just slowly let them interact more and more, and discourage any rough play. Stubborn as she is, our current big dog quickly learned "Easy!" and understood some things are more fragile than she is.
Our Rhodesian was named Rodan, by the way (she also got along famously with our rabbit, but she was always more motherly than predatory anyway).
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#5
20th January 2010, 05:39 PM
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When I introduced tiny kitten Pratchett to SpaceDawg it was the old fashioned way, letting the kitten bounce around the paws he had no idea actually belonged to a living creature, while I told Space that the kitteh is MINE and she'd better mind that. Eventually Space put her nose down to Pratchett's and he figured out she was another animal and went tiny kitteh ballistic, hissing and spitting, while Space grinned like a hairy jack o'lantern at him and tried to lick him. They ended up fast friends, sitting companionably together outside and snuggling.
I might suggest that when you go pick out a kitten go for a tomcat and preferably a large breed like a Maine Coon or Forest Cat because they can hold their own with even a very big dog. Bear has high prey drive but isn't cat aggressive and he's pretty much allowed to chase Pratchett and the Captain any time he wants, since they like it and it gives them exercise. He's gotten his nose tagged many times and occasionally gets mad and snaps near them but so far there's been no real aggression. Heck, sometimes the cats chase HIM and attack his butt, it's freaking hysterical. I think animals mostly just work it out--even though Bear chases the cats they walk right under his nose, rub against his front legs and occasionally lick his ears. He knows he's not allowed to annoy Stiggs, who's the old man of the family and completely off limits to aggression by any other critter. I've noticed that cats tend to live literally on a higher plane--they occupy the high places dogs can't get to and that really helps keep the aggression curtailed, since kitteh has a place to escape to that the dog can't do anything about. Make sure kitteh has lots of bolt holes and escape places, try not to leave the animals alone together and reinforce good behavior when you're around and you should be fine.
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#6
20th January 2010, 06:35 PM
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What Smartie said. Get a big mean tom.
Some years back I split a rental with a couple friends. One was a pet person with three dogs and about six cats. They had all been socialized together since they were little. They played with each other and slept more or less in a big pile in the living room. One morning about 4 AM, the dogs went off and ate the cats. The room looked like a bad horror flick. The only cat that survived was a really big tomcat named Chainsaw. And even he was holed up on top of the fridge when we got there. As near as we can tell, probably one of the cats flinched away from one of the dogs. These dogs were high strung and pretty much automatically went after anything that ran away. They would even try it on with me when I was playing with them out in the yard. But I'd just let them catch me and then they were the ones with a problem. Doesn't work so well for a 7 lb cat. Point is, never forget they are all competitive dominant carnivores. And while it's not all that likely, when dogs and cats are together there is always the possibility of a disaster.
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#7
20th January 2010, 06:55 PM
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Yeah, if I go out the dogs go outside and the cats stay in--for as well as they get along I don't even kid myself that without the pack leader around there might be carnage. Bear is very territorial about toys and bones and if he thought a cat was after his Kong he could get pretty primal about it. The cats can fight back, but I suspect the vet bills would be ruinous and it would most likely end in tears all 'round. I do not tempt fate in this area.
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#8
20th January 2010, 06:58 PM
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#10
20th January 2010, 07:35 PM
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I wouldn't get a Maine Coon because I don't want to deal with grooming, but I like the idea of getting a bigger kitten and definitely not the runt of the litter. Also a self-confident kitten that will be less likely to run and more likely to whack the dog in the nose.
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#12
20th January 2010, 07:52 PM
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 The other reason they get along is that I require them to socialize regularly--the cats eat together, the dogs eat together and they're all allowed to play and wrestle as long as they don't get too into it. Since one of the cats follows me everywhere and the dogs do too, they have to share close space and have learned each other's body language--the dogs won't mess with the cats when they're eating or intent on kitty business and the cats are remarkably cool, seldom doing more than an occasional hiss or pawslap without claws. I mostly let them work it out, only stepping in to regulate when they start getting out of bounds--it's a lot like day care!
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#13
21st January 2010, 03:36 AM
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I have no experience of mixing cats and dogs so I have no advice at all. I just wanted to report that I really want to be snorfled right now. It sounds great!
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#14
21st January 2010, 08:35 AM
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#15
21st January 2010, 09:43 AM
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We've had cats and dogs for years now - a few of the dogs have had a high prey drive. None of them have done more than chase the cats around... and a couple of them enjoy the chase being reversed (which is always a hoot, let me tell you). I don't really have any advice or words of wisdom that hasn't already been given, but I can tell you that my experience is that most dogs just want to please their humans to the nth degree - if their actions displease you, they stop.
The dog we have now (springer spaniel) loves all of our cats, and they love him back. He has this thing for licking the insides of their ears... and they LOVE it. Freaks.
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#16
21st January 2010, 09:45 AM
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The sight of my perky no-tan-lines roommate dressed only in panties would normally have been a dream - except for the gore all over her and the room. Believe me, it took a fair whack of beer to scrub that one from the old memory banks.
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#17
21st January 2010, 10:40 AM
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Not much to add. I've not had much trouble with dogs & cats, but my dogs have either been very laid-back or didn't outweigh the cats.
One thing I will note - baby kitties' "instinctive" fear of dogs pretty much depends on the mother. If mama cat has dogs, baby cat will be fine and fearless. This might help with your dog, since the kittie would be less likely to run. If mama cat dislikes or is afraid of dogs, baby cat will freak out. I'm not sure how they learn this, it seems to happen even when the baby cat hasn't really seen any dogs, but it's always held true for cats I've known. If you've got a choice, get a kitten whose mama likes dogs.
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#18
21st January 2010, 11:02 AM
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#19
21st January 2010, 11:16 AM
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I've got a great example! Noodles. He HATES CATS. (So do I, but that's another post.) Outside he will bark and bark and bark at cats, and on leash he will drag me down the block trying to chase one. I'm sure if he ever caught one he would kill it. Inside the house he chases my cats, and pretends to gnaw on them, but doesn't actually bite them. He backs them into a corner and barks at them, but it always seems that they can hold their own either by clawing his face off or escaping. When he was a tiny puppy he wrassled with my black cat all the time, and neither ever got hurt. In the mornings he will climb himself halfway on the bed, put a paw on each cat sleeping there beside me, and lick/gnaw them into submission. He's been slapped and scratched many, many times and it doesn't seem to faze him. The cats have never been hurt, so I just let it go unless it looks like Noodles is going to lose an eye.
Ghost, on the other hand, is the biggest cuddle-meister ever. He sleeps on the foot of the bed with a cat curled up on each side of him. When Antigone's two kittens were a couple days old I got one in each hand and presented them both to Ghost, and he licked their heads. They didn't appear to appreciate the gesture. So anyhow, my suggestion is, introduce them where they can see but not get to each other, like across a fence or through a glass door, and then leash the dog and let them smell each other in the same room, and then if the dog doesn't try to eat the kitteh, just let it go. They'll work it out themselves.
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#20
21st January 2010, 11:39 AM
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The example of Noodles supports my contention that dogs can be made to accept pretty much anyone or anything as a pack member, so long as the pack leader says so. I require my dogs to get along with my cats so they do, but they'll chase other cats in a hot minute. Still not aggressive towards them, but they do love the chase. Cats will or won't accept a doggy friend depending on their own whim of the moment, but that's cats for ya.
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#21
22nd January 2010, 09:18 AM
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It does depend on the dog, a bit. Some breeds are notorious cat killers because their prey-drive is so strong. Some dogs are just damn hard-headed.
We've got one dog that loves cats, lets them do anything they want, has gotten nailed in the nose by strange cats with no negative response (other than to back up), and so on. She came that way, the only thing we did was yell at her once for chasing our cats in the backyard (before we realized that she just wanted to lick them). We've got another dog that alternates between trying to play with the cats and trying to eat them. If we scold the dog, the cats take that for encouragement and go after her. If we yell at the cats, it just reverses. Fortunately, she's outnumbered and not much bigger than they are, so we generally just ignore them unless they get too serious. A lot like my Mom did us kids, as I recall. 
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#22
22nd January 2010, 09:36 AM
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SpaceDawg was a Malemute, a breed with prey drive so strong you'll find most Mals on Petfinder are marked "no cats." Yet she'd chase cats with no intention to hurt them (and there was one crazy ass neighborhood cat who'd constantly jump into our yard just to play tag with the dog, silliest thing imaginable!) and bonded with Pratchett like he was her puppy, so a lot depends on the individual dog, too. One good thing about high prey drive breeds is they also tend to be the ones to whom pack hierarchy matters most, so as long as the owner is dominant enough it's likely the animals will get along.
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#23
22nd January 2010, 10:11 AM
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The question then becomes how dominant is enough, and that depends mostly on the dog's temperament and personality.
You say yourself that you don't leave your critters home alone together. We had a GSD when I was a kid. She got along fine with the cats indoors, where she knew she'd get in trouble. Outside, they were fair game, although I suspect she didn't try her hardest with our cats. I do distinctly remember the time she saw a neighbor's cat that she particularly hated while I was out walking her. You know those Marmaduke cartoons with the owner sailing along horizontally at the end of the leash?
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#24
22nd January 2010, 10:34 AM
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Of course I don't leave them together--pack discipline depends on the pack being together and accidents happen. Cats don't have the right body language to fully be accepted by a dog with strict pack hierarchy boundaries so eventually they'll set off a touchy dog. I'd leave Widget alone with them but not Bear--he's much more impulsive than Mr Canny Border Collie. Bear is also lightning fast--most dogs aren't really quick enough to surprise a cat and completely cut them off from escape but Bear can do it, I've seen him.
Basically, if the dog will eat the cat food or get in the trash when left alone and bored then they shouldn't be left alone with the cats, either!
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#25
22nd January 2010, 12:44 PM
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I'm definitely dominant. Zilla has never challenged me on anything.
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#28
22nd January 2010, 02:31 PM
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Bodhiman is probably distracted with end-of-year stuff, but if you PM him, he may have some insight. He owned a Rhodesian at one time. Just a suggestion.
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#29
22nd January 2010, 07:53 PM
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I'd love to help, but our Rhodie was an aggressive sort. Not being a fan of cats, I didn't mind if he chased them. HOWEVER - your dog seems to go against the breed in it's characteristics. They are notoriously brave, territorial and strong willed. Hearing that yours is subservient to other dogs makes me think you have a chance. Just how bad do you need the kitten? If you don't I wouldn't bother.
If you absolutely must have a kitten, there are a couple ways to do it. 1) Keep the kitten somewhere neutral and conduct the introduction there. Bringing the cat directly into the home is almost a sure way to kill it, regardless of the dog. Give it time, go slowly and watch VERY carefully. 2) Enforce the same rules with the kitten as you would with a child. Bring it in, make it off limits and important. The dog will be curious, so you'll have to let it sniff & lick, then shoo it away when it gets too close. Enforce this consistently for a period of a couple months. NEVER LEAVE THEM ALONE TOGETHER! Remember that a large dog can cause incredible injury "just playing", but I think the fact that it's a small kitten gives me hope. Or your Rhodie will choke to death trying to eat it. Either way, you should have be able to have a kitten at home in no time.
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#30
23rd January 2010, 08:18 PM
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My two cents: this is a very bad idea. If a seventy-pound toddler could figure a way around a baby gate, which I am convinced* is possible, then a dog certainly could. At my house, there are two rooms, with doors that can be shut, that the dogs are forbidden from entering. I know that if I baby-gated to protect Veena the cat (not that she'd wait around for this, mind you), Rascal the anti-cat dog would have that gate down for the count in a matter of moments, either by ramming it or just jumping clear of it. Baby gates may not provide enough (safe) refuge. *Spoken as a former nanny to a couple of terrors... I mean brothers, then ages 1 and 3.
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#31
23rd January 2010, 08:27 PM
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Oh I must have missed that. No, a baby gate is nigh on useless in my house.
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#32
24th January 2010, 11:49 AM
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I use baby gates in my house and Zilla has never tried to jump one, even though the 40lb bag of dog food and the giant box of dog cookies is on the other side. She's definitely capable of jumping it, but she's not much of a jumper. Doesn't stick her feet up on the kitchen counter, either.
I found out from a mutual friend that an old friend of mine took in a stray cat that a couple months ago that turned out to be pregnant. She also has 2 or 3 golden retrievers, so these kittens will have been around dogs plenty. I'm going to drop here a line to see if she needs homes for any of them.
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#33
24th January 2010, 02:31 PM
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Not to say that Zilla will, because she's your dog and you know her better than we do. But dogs on the chase will often not even notice something as insubstantial as a baby gate, and will just go through or over it if it doesn't move.
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#34
25th January 2010, 07:34 AM
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Bodhiman, my Ridgie is a-typical in a number of ways. She never really developed the 'aloof with strangers' characteristic - this was actually deliberate on the part of her breeder, who told me that her Ridgies (Kwetu) are generally friendlier than most other lines. My older dog (now gone) was the one who would bark if something was amiss, and Zilla still hasn't taken on the role of letting me know something is going on. Her top two priorities in life are 1) playing and 2) sleeping. If she sees another dog on our walks, she always want to play, and if it's a small dog, she'll drop down to make herself look smaller and more approachable. Not belly up or anything like that, she just tried to get down on the little dogs eye level. She's never growled at another dog except in play. Unfortunately my friend has already placed all her kittens some time back, so looks like it will be a while yet before I get a kitten.
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