Programs like AutoCAD, but without the high pricetag?

[hroark2112]

As a plumbing contractor, I don't really have a big use for the vast majority of what AutoCAD has to offer. I would, however, like to find a program that will allow me to detail pipes, valves & fittings for projects. Some of our employees are...how to put this...PC...dumb. (OK, not so PC, but you get the idea!) If I lay out all the pipe & fittings, they'll still screw it up. I'd like to be able to draw out the system and have them understand it.

I did a quick PowerPoint presentation on the last major project we had, and it really seemed to help.

I'm open to an older version of AutoCAD, if it is available for cheap or free, so let me know what's out there!!

TIA for your help!

[Varnished Truth]

Sort through this. It's been a long time since I've used a CAD program, back when AutoCAD Release 2.0 was new, so I'm not comfortable recommending any of them. Google has a bunch of likely candidates, though.

[Panacea]

How cheap? If you already know AutoCAD you can pick an old one up off of Ebay.

[hroark2112]

Honestly, I don't know AutoCAD at all. That's part of the problem! I'm hoping for something simple, something I can draw up some quick piping stuff on.

[tunaman]

Well CAD is for designing things in exacting detail.

If you're using standard parts and just want to come up with a "layout", look at something like Visio, which has become the standard layout app in the IT world. It might even have plumbing icons, I don't know.

Unfortunately, just this morning I threw out last week's copy of eWeek (IT trade mag) who gave a decent review to a cheaper Visio clone. I have to step away for about an hour, but if you're interested, I can look for the app online when I get back.

ETA: According to this, Visio does come with a set of pipes, fixtures and valve shapes.

[Jaglavak]

I've used Visio, both from the original publisher and after it got bought by Micro$cum.

The original from Shapeware/Visio Corp was a good simple usable drag n drop program where you selected shapes from easily accessed libraries. And there were scads of specialty libraries available. If there were shapes you needed that were not already defined, it was easy to pull up basic shapes like lines, curves, circles, etc to build your own and then save it.

The whole thing turned to shit after it got Borged. I wouldn't pay a dime for the current version.


ETA: Visio Technical had the sweet shape libraries.

[Jaglavak]

BTW, AutoCAD is an exercise in aggro. Especially older versions, where it can sometimes be nearly impossible to print what you see on the screen. It was originally coded for pen plotters with carosel pen changers. The object lives hanging in mystical model space and you are supposed to be able to define various windows trimmed with previously saved title blocks. At the time, nearly every engineering office had a guy who had read the 418 page manual to figure out the arcane command sequence needed to actually do anything like that. I often resorted to just taking a screen shot and printing the bitmap using XNView* for quick sketches. Newer versions have laid on fixes over the top of the same old crapware to maintain backward compatibility. Run away! Run away!

True CAD programs store what you see on the screen as a database of vectors. Drawing programs store your drawing as a picture file. I think Visio stores your drawing as a database, but shapes and anchor locations instead of vectors. Visio supports layers similar to AutoCAD, except it's done simply and logically. It's like laying down different sheets of clear plastic over your paper and drawing on them. One for valves, one for pumps, etc. You can turn them on and off. There might be inexpensive Visio clones out there too, and you might want to look for layering capability. It's not crucial.

Be aware that most drawings exchanged between businesses these days happen in AutoCAD format. A lot of busnesses won't take anything else and often it needs to be in their particular template. A lot of CAD packages support saving in AutoCAD format and that usually works OK for the basic object. However if you have to deliver a drawing with the appropriate layer naming convention, line weights, and predefined title block, that will have to happen in AutoCAD. Usually a version released in the last 2 or 3 years because of course they keep re-arranging the bric-a-brac to keep you on the treadmill.


*XNView rocks for handling photos. It's free, but send them money!

[Panacea]

I dunno, most of the drawings I see going back and forth these days are pdf plots from either AutoCAD or Microstation. Most of the roadway design folks here use Microstation; seems like AutoCAD is better for general civil design.

Maybe I've been using it too long but I don't find it *that* difficult to plot things.

[hroark2112]

Luckily I'm not trying to deliver anything to architects or engineers. I'm really more looking for something fairly simple that I can create a quick drawing that I can hand to a pipefitter or plumber and make it easy for him to follow my directions. I was able to make something in PowerPoint (as a slide in a presentation), which gave me the idea. It was great to be able to hand a sketch to a welder, explain it once, and then have him make what I wanted exactly as I wanted it.

I was thinking something like AutoCAD because I figured it would have the fittings used in plumbing (copper 90° elbows, tees, valves) as something I could paste quickly.

We don't have a plotter in my office, so I'm thinking the output will be 8X11 or 8X14.

[Panacea]

I found Visio Technical 2000 on eBay for < $50. Is that old enough to be the good one Jags?

Wait, here's Visio 4, even older.

[Jaglavak]

I downloaded an eval copy of Rhino a couple weeks ago. Haven't had time to twiddle with it tho.

[hakuna matata]

I have never used it for this purpose--but the basic program is free so you might play with it. SketchUp. Now owned by Google.

http://sketchup.google.com/

To get too detailed you would need to buy the pro version but the free version is fairly powerful.

They have a section called 'components' and you can download (for the most part free) various plumbing components that are 3D and make the diagrams you are talking about. It actually will produce the 3D version of the pipe fittings rather then just a diagram so it might not be what you are after.

So it might be too detailed for what you are seeking but then again it might be the ticket. Check it out and let me know what you think

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by NinetyWt

I found Visio Technical 2000 on eBay for < $50. Is that old enough to be the good one Jags?

Wait, here's Visio 4, even older.

Anything before about Sept '99 is the good stuff. Earlier revs are lighter cheaper and simpler. I don't recall the last rev I used. I'm not trying to steer anyone to Visio BTW; just passing on the lore.

[Wolf Larsen]

Visio blows dead goats. Dead rotten goats.

hroark, if you find something good that is cheap, let me know. I'd love to have an ok CAD program that didn't cost an arm and a leg.

[Jaglavak]

Hey! I used to know a girl who worked there. She had nice tits.

Just downloaded & installed SketchUp. Popped open the program and drew a cube in about 2 minutes. It seems to default to 3D mode. Lines snap to vertexes nicely. Axes change line weight to indicate when your new line is parallel to them, that's nice. Auto shading of newly created planes. It wants to phone home, of course. I slapped it upside the head with ZoneAlarm.

[Jaglavak]

Dear FSM,

Please let Google stay Not Evil.
Sincerely,

Jag

[hakuna matata]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

Hey! I used to know a girl who worked there. She had nice tits.

Just downloaded & installed SketchUp. Popped open the program and drew a cube in about 2 minutes. It seems to default to 3D mode. Lines snap to vertexes nicely. Axes change line weight to indicate when your new line is parallel to them, that's nice. Auto shading of newly created planes. It wants to phone home, of course. I slapped it upside the head with ZoneAlarm.

It is a 3D program. Very intuitive too. As an Architect, I think it is a great tool but I can see the applications for other disciplines and that is why I suggested it. There appear to be a lot of free components that other people out in SketchUP land have drawn and that are free to download so it seemed to fit the OP's desire. Unconventional, yes, but if it works why not?

And if people with nice tits work there--even better!

[Random Precision]

I am a Visio geek. I've been using it since version 4.5 and am currently at Visio 2003. It is a very powerful and relatively easy program to use. The Pro version is the one that has the extended stencil set, but you can create your own stencils rather easily simply by drawing what you want and then dragging it into an open stencil sheet. It also has a great deal of power and flexibility for creating "smart" shapes which can change size, shape, color, etc. based on your input. Further, just as in AutoCad, shapes can have properties associated with them like length, weight, cost, man hours to install, color, size, serial number or anything else you care to create. Then, when the drawing is complete, a custom report can be run which creates a spreadsheet totalling any or all of the custom attributes. This is a useful method of creating a material list and estimated job cost for a project.

In fairness to Jaglavak, MicroShaft added very little value to Visio and in some ways even hurt it by removing some features. But it still works very well for creating detailed scaled drawings quickly without a lot of effort.

Having said all of that, it is possible that Visio is not the best tool for detailed piping layouts. Its stencils are single line, the stencil shapes themselves are ANSI standard and may not match what is more generally used, and it does take a bit of time to learn all of the nifty features and shortcuts. I see a lot of drawings created by my colleagues where it's obvious that they didn't really understand how Visio works and created their drawings by brute force - a tedious process.

Still, if you can pick up a copy cheap or try out someone else's, it's definitely worth the time. Notwithstanding Wolf Larsen's deep love of the program.

ETA: Sketchup is pretty nice, but I've had a hard time trying to do intricate scaled work with it. Maybe I should read the user's guide.

[dynamitedave]

I've used TurboCAD for about 10 years. Costs US$129.

Simple enough once you get the hang of it. Draw in model space, define a viewport, switch to paper space, place viewport, scale it, do your labeling and dimensioning, print.

You can draw something once, then save it to reuse in other drawings.

I use it for site plans and more difficult canopy designs.

Currently, school is learning me AutoCAD. It has its pluses, but overall I'd prefer TurboCAD, but maybe that's because I'm more familiar with it.

The industry I'm training for though, has been sucked in bigtime by AutoDesk (AutoCAD), so I'm going to be dragged kicking and screaming to the dark side. Though I've been told the big money is in 12D, which we don't get trained on, we have to fund that ourselves.

[Lazlo]

SolidWorks or nothing!

I kid.

dynamitedave's suggestion of TurboCAD is a good one. The Deluxe versions ($129) are the best value on the market. It's very powerful for that price.

I've never really gotten the hang of Visio, myself.

[blank]

Many years ago- back when I used to write software that outputted DWG and DXF files there used to be a program called FreeCAD- It was a 2d drawing tool (DOS based). I just did a search for it and found this instead http://www.freecad.com/CAD_Programs_PCs/- It's a directory of free CAD programs for the PC (they have Mac and UNIX too).

[nbyodo]

Draftsight by Dassult: http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/overview/

Free AutoCAD.

Most of the AutoCAD commands and shortcuts are the same. Support for layers, xrefs, blocks, etc.

Most of us engineers at work use it (free) while the designers use AutoCAD (not free).

NB

[Random Precision]

Thanks for the link, nbyodo, and welcome to the boards.

[Xploder]

Having worked as a pipefitter before, why are you guys telling him to use high-end CAD programs? The average pipefitter just wants a picture of where the pipes go. Whether you're talking about piping a building or piping a machine, they don't need 3-D rendered drawings to show that.

Aside from that, I used to use Autocad and hated the fucking thing. Visio is a damn good program - especially with the addons available.

[Darmund]

Originally Posted by Xploder

Having worked as a pipefitter before, why are you guys telling him to use high-end CAD programs? The average pipefitter just wants a picture of where the pipes go. Whether you're talking about piping a building or piping a machine, they don't need 3-D rendered drawings to show that.

True. The pipefitter just needs a general idea of how things are supposed to go, and then he pipes it however he wants to. As designers, however, we do detailed drawings so that when the pipefitter fucks it up, we can say "If you had just installed it the way I drew it, it would have worked!" It's all about CYA.

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

Another vote for Draftsight by Dassault.

[Random Precision]

Originally Posted by Xploder

Having worked as a pipefitter before, why are you guys telling him to use high-end CAD programs? The average pipefitter just wants a picture of where the pipes go. Whether you're talking about piping a building or piping a machine, they don't need 3-D rendered drawings to show that.

Aside from that, I used to use Autocad and hated the fucking thing. Visio is a damn good program - especially with the addons available.

I've met two different pipefitters that did 3-D drawings for their as-built drawing set. One was in a Mechanical Engineering program and the other was my instructor for Computer Aided Design class who had just received his Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering.

But they were both honest to Og plumbers.

Also - Visio is absolutely outstanding for this type of drawing and damned easy to use to boot.