Poll: Refills at public-accessable soda fountains--illegal?

[Tripler]

The backstory: Was out eating lunch with some coworkers, when one of us went to get a refill on our 14 oz. cup. One dude got up, half-filled some soda _{or pop, or fizz, or Coke, whatever you call it}, and sat back down. Another dude said that's stealing! Discussion and deep thought ensued.

The situation: You are at a mall/shopping center, in a cluster of eateries known as a "food court." There is a publicly accessible soda fountain, where any random person can walk up and self-serve a beverage. You have paid for a meal and have an empty cup--you take your tray to the fountain, fill your cup to the brim with a beverage, sit down and consume your meal and beverage. You decide that you might like a second beverage . . .

The location does not have to be a mall. It may be a restaurant with a public seating area and a public fountain (e.g. 'Subway', 'Taco Bell', 'Burger King', or any other fast-food like establishment).

The question: Provided you have purchased a container from one of the immediate establishments (cup, glass, etc.), are refills wrong?

In the interest of generating partisan lines (as this IRL discussion seems to have), I'd like to ask votes only until the tenth vote--then discussion on why it is or isn't wrong.

Tripler
No endorsement of above eateries intended. I make my own goddamned sandwich.

[stormie]

But, but, but . . . I had such a good answer!*

*it was witty and to the point. so nrrr

[KidVermicious]

I would just like to register my disappointment that the OP appears to think there's anything redeeming in a box of fries from Burger King.

[hatesfreedom]

burger king fries are delicious

i think that whether it's illegal or not is only a question if you get caught

[severe delays]

I'd say illegal but not immoral. I note you have no poll option for that. Or for wombats. You're new at this huh?

[Tripler]

Originally Posted by severe delays

I'd say illegal but not immoral. I note you have no poll option for that. Or for wombats. You're new at this huh?

I had considered it, but thought, "Meh, the illegality of it would cover the immorality of it too. . . I mean, aren't most laws generated by morality?"

Originally Posted by stormie

But, but, but . . . I had such a good answer!*

*it was witty and to the point. so nrrr

Alright, go ahead and post it.

Tripler
Yeah, I'm new to this poll stuff.

[severe delays]

Originally Posted by Tripler

I had considered it, but thought, "Meh, the illegality of it would cover the immorality of it too. . . I mean, aren't most laws generated by morality?"

That's...an interesting take on life....

[Dragonlady]

My thoughts are that you purchased soda with your meal. You get however much soda you want, with this one meal.
No fair bringing back the cup the next day, or sharing it among a half dozen people.

[KidVermicious]

Originally Posted by Tripler

I mean, aren't most laws generated by morality?

I think that's a whole 'nuther bucket of fish, right there.

[Borborygmi]

What Dragonlady said. When fast food places started making (or letting, depending on your point of view) you serve your own drink it was not unusual for there to be a sign posted describing what you could and couldn't do regarding refills, and they were almost always the Dragonlady rules. I always assume this is the policy unless it is posted otherwise.

I will say, though, that I've never seen a self-serve fountain in a food court serving multiple fast food places. That might make me pause to consider whether the usual rules as I understand them apply, but I think I'd still come to the same conclusion.

[PSXer]

It is immoral to break the law (Romans 13:2)


If you bring your own cup to the fountain and use it, it is stealing. Because you bought a mug from a nearby establishment at the mall doesn't change it

[Hunter Hawk]

Getting a refill from the restaurant you bought the soda from = ok (unless they prohibit refills).

Getting a refill from a different restaurant in the food court = not ok.

[Panacea]

Agree with Drags and Borbor. When fountains began to appear out in the 'dining room' of such places, the posted rules were as Drags describes. Any other use of the fountain I'd say was tacky but not a big deal.

Fountains wouldn't be placed out there if the establishment didn't expect you to refill your drink.

[Dragonlady]

I remember from working fast food, that the cup costs more than the contents.

[PSXer]

Originally Posted by Dragonlady

I remember from working fast food, that the cup costs more than the contents.

that doesn't justify stealing soda

[Dragonlady]

No, but it explains a companys policy of free refills.

[MsWisher]

Originally Posted by Hunter Hawk

Getting a refill from the restaurant you bought the soda from = ok (unless they prohibit refills).

Getting a refill from a different restaurant in the food court = not ok.

This, exactly. (which fits none of the voting options )

[ulfhjorr]

Originally Posted by PSXer

It is immoral to break the law (Romans 13:2)

Your cite only works if you belong to the Cult of Paul. This is an even worse argument than legal=moral.

As to the OP -- if there's no sign stating that refills are forbidden, then it's fine to get one during your dining experience. Saving the cup for the next time you're in the mall is a bit on the wrong side, though.

[bufftabby]

No, free refills are not stealing. Free firstfills are.

[Pere]

Originally Posted by severe delays

I'd say illegal but not immoral.

In America, we consider an unlimited supply of iced corn-syrup water to be a human right. Roughly even with free speech; way ahead of privacy, or clean air.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by NinetyWt

Fountains wouldn't be placed out there if the establishment didn't expect you to refill your drink.

My thoughts ezackly.

And I'll add that establishments (e.g., fast food outlets) which keep their fountains behind the counter will usually give you ONE free refill if you ask. This pertains primarily to franchises located in food courts (as described by the OP), as sugar fiends will fill-and-run from accessible fountains in these locations.

[dogbutler]

If you pay for the drink, you get the refills, unless prohibited. If you didn't pay for the drink, you should be dragged away, and locked into the broom closet with the Burger King.

[R. J. Squirrel]

Originally Posted by PSXer

It is immoral to break the law (Romans 13:2)


If you bring your own cup to the fountain and use it, it is stealing. Because you bought a mug from a nearby establishment at the mall doesn't change it

Sez who? If there's no sign saying the policy, and the fountain is public access, free refills are assumed, for that visit only. What, they gonna send an employee out from behind to go police the refills? Soda is a huge profit item. You'd have to guzzle free soda all day to dent that margin.

[Wolf Larsen]

Most of the places with the soda machine out in the customer area have a sign saying that free refills are for that visit only. So getting some extra Pepski to wash down your Fart Burger is cool, but bringing your own container when you didn't buy a drink is a dick move.

[Hobo with a spatula]

Filling up just before you leave is kosher, too.

As long as the soda doesn't have pork or shellfish in it.

[Hobo with a spatula]

Anyway, pinchin' from the fountain is like using the restroom. Customers only, but if you don't call attention to yourself you usually get away with it. If not, might as well drop the cup, you spill it all running anyway.

[Mustard Stain]

Originally Posted by bufftabby

No, free refills are not stealing. Free firstfills are.

I agree. One of my jobs when I was still a student had coffee that you served yourself on that same premise. You paid for your meal and got an empty coffee cup. Then you could fill that cup as many times as you'd like.

I asked a manager about that once. Doesn't the restaurant lose money on that?

The answer was, "No, not really." There is only so much liquid you can actually hold, no matter how efficient your kidneys and bladder might be. If you can actually suck back enough coffee or soda for the restaurant to start feeling the hurt, then my manager would have saluted you as a wee-wee god of some kind.

If you were only supposed to get one cup, then we would have kept the coffee behind the counter and served it to you when we gave you your food.

[The Superhero]

Originally Posted by Mustard Stain

One of my jobs when I was still a student had coffee that you served yourself on that same premise. You paid for your meal and got an empty coffee cup. Then you could fill that cup as many times as you'd like.

I asked a manager about that once. Doesn't the restaurant lose money on that?

The answer was, "No, not really." There is only so much liquid you can actually hold, no matter how efficient your kidneys and bladder might be. If you can actually suck back enough coffee or soda for the restaurant to start feeling the hurt, then my manager would have saluted you as a wee-wee god of some kind.

If you were only supposed to get one cup, then we would have kept the coffee behind the counter and served it to you when we gave you your food.

Yep, soda even moreso than coffee is hugely profitable for restaurants and convenience stores and such.

There was a corner store near my house when I was in high school that sold something they billed as a "Floppy Cup." It was a contraption that looked sort of like a miniature mylar birthday balloon, with an opening to fill and and insert a straw on one side. You bought it for something like $4, and then could keep coming back for free fountain soda refills for as long as the cup lasted. Obviously the assumption was that you'd stop there for gas since you could get a free soda, or buy some other junk food when you stopped in to fill 'er up...but I'll bet they turned a profit on it even if all you did was fill your Floppy Cup a few times a week for however many months the thing held together.

[stormie]

Does anyone remember when a 'small' was actually small, the drinks machine was behind the counter, and no-one had free refills? Of course, McDonalds looked a little different back then . . . restaurants started giving free refills, to great excitement, and then the whole thing just grew, and we along with it. Zees days, as long as you bought a drink and refills are not specifically not allowed, you can slurp it up. When you leave, it's over.

[ryevermouthbitters]

Originally Posted by stormie

Does anyone remember when a 'small' was actually small, the drinks machine was behind the counter, and no-one had free refills? Of course, McDonalds looked a little different back then . . . restaurants started giving free refills, to great excitement, and then the whole thing just grew, and we along with it. Zees days, as long as you bought a drink and refills are not specifically not allowed, you can slurp it up. When you leave, it's over.

I remember, which is the only thing making the question complicated to me. Most of these places continue to offer multiple sizes of soft drinks at different prices. Assuming for the sake of argument that free refills are implied, are the large sizes of the soft drinks a) a contest to see who is the stupidest customer or b) a convenience for the 2ish percent of the customers who will haul their cups out to the car and enjoy their HFCS or saccharine long after their visit is over or c) something else?

[Random Precision]

Originally Posted by ryevermouthbitters

Assuming for the sake of argument that free refills are implied, are the large sizes of the soft drinks a) a contest to see who is the stupidest customer or b) a convenience for the 2ish percent of the customers who will haul their cups out to the car and enjoy their HFCS or saccharine long after their visit is over or c) something else?

Don't forget that a lot of their customers still use the drive-through, so refills aren't really an option. Also, some people honestly don't want a quart of soda with their meal. I order the small drink, but virtually never get a refill. Small is all I need with my meal and I don't take any with me when I leave.

[ryevermouthbitters]

I'm with you - I only ever want a small. But at non-drivethrough places like a food court or my corner burger place I always wonder who gets a large, when a small with free refills will do the same job. Maybe they just want a big honkin' cup of leftover ice to suck on? Or are they unaware of the new etiquette convention?

[crys]

Like some others have said soda is extremely cheap. I nEver realized how cheap until I was put on light duty at work and spent some time in our purchasing department. Its not just the syrup that's cheap either the bottles are like a 500 percent markup. We give free fountain drinks to all our employees every day and it doesn't even put a dent in our profits. We employee thousands of people company wide and all of them drink for free.

Not to mention how many servings come from those big boxes of syrup. Many movie theatres around here have the public accessible soda fountains.

[stormie]

d'ya know how much sugar is in those things?
ya, probably do.

[Wolf Larsen]

Tripler, a question came up at dinner last night. If there was a crashed WWII bomber, with ordinance still on it, how cranky would the bombs be? Would entering the craft be likely to set them off or not?

[Borborygmi]

Originally Posted by ryevermouthbitters

I'm with you - I only ever want a small. But at non-drivethrough places like a food court or my corner burger place I always wonder who gets a large, when a small with free refills will do the same job. Maybe they just want a big honkin' cup of leftover ice to suck on? Or are they unaware of the new etiquette convention?

You may be wondering about the customer who orders a large drink... I'm actually wondering about the sad soul who orders a small drink and spends the rest of the afternoon hanging out in McDonald's for the free refills. "Ha, I've beaten the system!" I imagine him saying as he takes his little cup into the men's room again so that no one will abscond with it while he relieves himself.

Besides getting drivethrough customers to pay extra for the larger size, I'm supposing that the different drink prices can also make "super-sizing" a meal appear to be more of a bargain and help the place push a few more fries.

[Diamonds02]

Originally Posted by NinetyWt

Fountains wouldn't be placed out there if the establishment didn't expect you to refill your drink.

Agreed. Businesses are ran by greedy bastards. If they didn't want anyone refilling soda, the fountains would be placed behind the counter.

That being said, one must be really straight-laced to even give a damn about stealing a soda.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by Borborygmi

You may be wondering about the customer who orders a large drink... I'm actually wondering about the sad soul who orders a small drink and spends the rest of the afternoon hanging out in McDonald's for the free refills. "Ha, I've beaten the system!" I imagine him saying as he takes his little cup into the men's room again so that no one will abscond with it while he relieves himself.

Besides getting drivethrough customers to pay extra for the larger size, I'm supposing that the different drink prices can also make "super-sizing" a meal appear to be more of a bargain and help the place push a few more fries.

You raised an interesting point, and hopefully this response does not hijack the topic: what about people who hang out all day at all-u-can-eat places? I was at such a place around 4 pm and I saw the manager escorting a bearded gentleman out the door. When I asked him, he replied that beardo comes in around 2 pm and buys a salad plate (not the dinner plate, which costs $2 more), fills it up and proceeds to eat from it for the next 2 1/2 hours. After that, the salad plates are removed and only the dinner plates are available, and beardo goes back in line to get a larger plate and load up on dinner menu items (which costs half again the price of the lunch salad plate). Beardo did this often enough that the manager told his staff not to let him in, but someone forgot, so he had to give the guy the bum's rush (ala Detroit style).

I can see the manager's point, but to be fair there is no sign that limits the extent of a customer's stay, nor how often they may visit the food stands (it's all-u-can-eat). If someone buys a plate, they should be able to fill it to their hearts content, and it's the restaurant's fault for not providing smaller plates at dinner time.

[Uthrecht]

Yep, I agree that the placement of a fountain drink dispenser in the public area is a sign that you can have free refills during your meal. Usually I don't see that in mall areas unless it's some kind of communal arrangement (the eateries all share a fountain area), which I'll often see in rest stops.

[vramin]

Originally Posted by bufftabby

No, free refills are not stealing. Free firstfills are.

This.

[stormie]

Originally Posted by Wolf Larsen

Tripler, a question came up at dinner last night. If there was a crashed WWII bomber, with ordinance still on it, how cranky would the bombs be? Would entering the craft be likely to set them off or not?

Only if you buy the "Jumbo". You know how they feel about jets.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by stormie

Only if you buy the "Jumbo". You know how they feel about jets.

Jets don't care about drinks, just cigarettes.

[Tripler]

I am so printing out this thread to take it to my co-workers. As of this point, over 77.5% feel it is not stealing. I see noone is familiar with the Chess King though. . .

Tripler
Next time I'm at lunch with these guys, I'm getting two 'halfsie' refills, just to be a PITA.

[Tripler]

Originally Posted by Wolf Larsen

Tripler, a question came up at dinner last night. If there was a crashed WWII bomber, with ordinance still on it, how cranky would the bombs be? Would entering the craft be likely to set them off or not?

Well, since we're in the Food Court bullshittin' whilst the kids are over in the Gap. . .

If, say, a B-17 launched loaded for bear, and it's ordnance was hung and fuzed, you'd have a problem on your hands. The bombs themselves would probably be okay--it's the mechanical fuzes you have to worry about. Depending on the fuzing, you'd have either early-generation batteries which would could have rotted out long ago so they wouldn't provide power to a firing circuit (safer), firing pin retention pins that have been under strain for so long they could have become brittle (not so safe), or parts would have rusted out and safety devices/spring actuators would also have become brittle (again, not so safe). This speaks nothing of the chemical composition of the 'completed' ordnance itself. The filler in the main charge would probably be just fine. The insensitive explosives used in the fuze might be a little cranky after 60 years.

Could you safely get onboard the aircraft? You wouldn't, but I would have to. I'd have to climb on to evaluate what's there, how it's all fuzed, what condition it's all in, and if it's safe to RSP in-place. If the ordance were hung pristinely, still on the racks, yeah, you could probably walk down the plane without incurring enough vibration to scratch a firing pin on a detonator. If the ordnance weren't hung so nice-nice, or the B-17 were a pile 'o' aluminum, vibration would become more of a problem.

Should your scenario happen, I guarantee it would not be a speedy process. Consider several hours' of RSP time per piece of ordnance. That does not include downloading/removal/transportation time off the bird.

* RSP: Render Safe Procedure--things I do to render something safe for transportation. I dispose of it later at a nother site (usu. by explosive means).

Say, who's that young punk talking to your daughter over there? Why is he flashing the "call me" sign to her? And he just looked over here at you and I and 'upnodded'. Stupid little punk.

Tripler
Why, is there something I should know?

[Wolf Larsen]

[Wolf covers up map and photos hastily with the keyboard.]

No, no particular reason, it just came up during dinner. Thanks for the info. So, would it be worse if the plane was in the jungle, or on an ice cap?

[Harry]

Some points, since this is a subject in which I can claim a certain amount of expertise, and it's a fascinating topic and (waving at the young man with Wolf's daughter) "Hi, Jack..." B-17's would not be launched on a strike with bombs not fused. There is no way in Hell to fuse a bomb load in flight. WWII-era fuses were safed with arming wires and generally required a certain number of revolutions once the wire was pulled by the bomb falling out of the bomb bay. Revolutions of the arming vanes drove gears that lined up components within the fuse so a firing pin could strike the fuse detonator, which is analogous to a primer in a bullet. On a crash landing on an ice cap, if the bombs are still in their shackles and the arming wires are in place, my highly qualified guess is that the bombs should pose no immediate threat. There would be more risk of detonation in a jungle, in my opinion. There's always exceptions however, and old, wise ordnance men never forget that. That's how we get to be old, wise ordnance men.

[Tripler]

Harry is right, in that combat missions they were fused. I didn't know if Wolf's hypothetical situation included ferry missions, where the bombers carried an internal load just to get them across the pond. I would think they could do that, if necessary, but for speed and range, they'd leave the bird "slick" and ship the explosives overseas by. . . well, ship.

By and large, they majority were mechanical fuses for GP bombs. I do recall seeing some Prox fuses later on in the War though. I think there were a smattering of intertial base-detonating fuses (I'll have to see if I can dig up my pubs). But yeah, so long as arming wires are in place, life's fairly happy so you can get in and inspect. There were a few cases that arming wires had broken and slipped out of guides/retention slips--but that was after years of exposure. Didn't line up the firing train, but gave an EOD tech some cause for concern.

Harry are you prior ordnance?

Tripler
Woooo! Bombs and refills, all in the same thread!

[Harry]

Originally Posted by Tripler

Harry are you prior ordnance?

Why, yes...yes I am. What gave it away? To touch on this subject briefly, I doubt that bombers would be used very often to ferry ordnance, at least not before the advent of in-flight refueling. I recall reading about the ferry mission of B-17's from Seattle to Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. Because of the distance, they even stripped the guns and ammunition out of them to save weight. During the Vietnam War we always got our resupply by pallet loads of bombs from ammo ships.

[RealityChuck]

If the policy is free refills, then you can get free refills. Unattended soda fountains are there so people can get free refills; it's a selling point. I can't imagine anyone thinking it's wrong, so long as you paid for the cup at the counter.

[Flying Saucerian]

My feeling is, you get ONE free refill. After that, it's mooching.

Saw one of those 'Refills For Same Visit Only' signs awhile back and couldn't help imagining the poor, sad soul who clung to his cup and kept going back in for more pop day after day, month after month, as the cup dissolved into paste...