Government Shutdown

[sturmhauke]

Originally Posted by BJMoose

Probably when she realized it is possible to judge an idea on its actual merits, not on the political affiliations of the source.

You should give it a whirl sometime.

Also, the piece is originally from Reuters. It says so quite plainly at the top. You could also argue that the Republicans are so idiotic these days that even their usual backers in the finance sector hate them.

[Chocodile]

Originally Posted by sturmhauke

Also, the piece is originally from Reuters. It says so quite plainly at the top. You could also argue that the Republicans are so idiotic these days that even their usual backers in the finance sector hate them.

And yet I have a strong feeling that the Republicans will win the next Presidential election. Let's face it, Obama may be a nice guy but he's not that good a leader. After Clinton's repeal of Wall Street controls, Bush just being a complete fuckup and Obama's failure to fix those messes and inspire people to think of someone other than themselves, things are gonna be pretty ugly by 2016. The people have a short memory, and the Republicans will convince them that they have the answers.

Reagan was a dick in almost every way imaginable but he was a leader and he got people to do things they normally wouldn't. America is going to need a leader even more than a President and I don't see any Democrats that project that quality. Republicans are masters at it. Things may be crazy and desperate enough that a charismatic personality like Ross Perot could emerge (I think Rand Paul has had too much time to be discredited). We need a Southern Democrat who can orate like a Baptist preacher.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by sturmhauke

Also, the piece is originally from Reuters.

See post #60 in this thread. I was given shit about a link to Breitbart, even though the article in question on that website also linked to Reuters.

Why the double standard?

[Muffin]

Remember, kids, it's all about Brain.

This thread, and your government shutdown itself. All about Brain.

[Muffin]

This business about the Republicans restricting the bringing of a clean continuing resolution vote to Cantor alone smacks of dictatorship.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally Posted by Sinclair Lewis

“But he saw too that in America the struggle was befogged by the fact that the worst Fascists were they who disowned the word ‘Fascism’ and preached enslavement to Capitalism under the style of Constitutional and Traditional Native American Liberty.”

.

[Muffin]

Assuming that Boehner does not let the USA go into default this week, does the tea party have the clout to terminate his speakership, in hopes of playing the same hand again a few months from now?

[Vandervecken]

Originally Posted by Brian

See post #60 in this thread. I was given shit about a link to Breitbart, even though the article in question on that website also linked to Reuters.

Why the double standard?

What double standard? You correctly pointed out to Erving#6 that your link went back to Reuters. Point in your favor.

It's now being pointed out to you that a cite you are disagreeing with also sources back to Reuters. If there's any double standard here, it's yours. A Reuters source that supports your point is valid, and you dismiss one that disagrees with your worldview. That's the double standard.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally Posted by Muffin

Assuming that Boehner does not let the USA go into default this week, does the tea party have the clout to terminate his speakership, in hopes of playing the same hand again a few months from now?

Potentially, yes. Most of the Tea Party leaning members of Congress are in districts which are unlikely to vote Democratic in the next election. Will they do that (or try to) is another question altogether. I suspect that they will, since they're driven by ideology and not reason. If the sane members of GOP decide to put their foot down, they have the power to block the Tea Partiers. No idea if they will or not.

Heard an apt description of what's going on by a comic on a BBC podcast, "Its like being in a cliff top fight with a lemming. You're the only one afraid of going over the edge."

[Veb]

Originally Posted by Muffin

Assuming that Boehner does not let the USA go into default this week, does the tea party have the clout to terminate his speakership, in hopes of playing the same hand again a few months from now?

That's really up in the air too. There's small doubt that the Tea Party faction would love to punish Boehner if he actually strikes a deal that averts default. They're very fond of throwing around RINO (Republican In Name Only) insults at anyone who isn't extreme enough for their doctrinaire definition of Republican. I don't think much of the guy but he's had hell's own task of trying to reason with them from inside the party. Whether they could actually frag him and put in one of their own as Speaker is just yet another can of worms. Here's one analysis: http://www.salon.com/2013/10/14/what..._john_boehner/

[Muffin]

Interesting article that sets out the procedure. Thanks for the link.

[Chocodile]

I'm trying to imagine what the left wing Tea Party would be like and I can only think of Communism. I don't know enough about history to know how this kind of situation was handled in the past.

Wasn't there a strong movement towards Communism in the Twenties and Thirties? How did they handle it then? I know about McCarthyism but that was long after the major elements had been put in check and was as much about the Cold War as mopping up the remnants of a former American movement.

Was World War II and the end of the Great Depression the major force in limiting the Trotskyites? Do we need the economic blossom of the Fifties and Sixties to stop the Tea Party? Cuz that's not gonna happen, our buzz has peaked.

[rayh]

Left wing Tea Party? Where did that come from?

[Muffin]

The USA's government(s) acted aggressively on communists from the outset. But let's keep this in perspective, for as horrendous as the conditions were in many industries in the USA, it was still a breadbasket of freedom and opportunity when compared to much of the rest of the world, and communism was wanting to overthrow the system that in part provided such opportunity. Many millions of people had good reason to emigrate out of their homelands, and the USA was the prime destination.

In the early years, a lot of the efforts of communists were put into helping the union movement grow (unionism was also legislatively and physically hammered by the government), but as it became more and more apparent that Soviet style communism was a very bad thing, the appeal of communism lost its lustre, such that social activists then tended to work on specific causes in and of themselves rather than as part of communist groups working on causes, and eventually the unions themselves tried to rid themselves of communists.

For example, communism in the USA had a strong foothold in the union movement in the mining industry in the west. Business and the government brutally repressed the miners and their families at the turn of the 20th century (read up on the Colorado Labor Wars) such that a class and industry based social movement grew in power through unions to become a major player in industrial-labor relations, in turn resulting in a trickle down that provided good standards of living to not just union members but also to a great many other non-unionized workers. By the same token, however, as the USA prospered, the underlying pressure for social advances decreased. As prosperity increased, people started thinking of what they had to lose to communism. As unions grew in power and blue collar people started to make better wages, there were fewer people interested in signing on to communism.

Essentially communism struggled to maintain a foothold in the USA from the outset, and never gained any significant political power, such that it was gasping for life before the mid-point of the 20th century, with the unions themselves joining in in clearing out the communists. The red scare was just beating an already dead communist horse, Today only a relatively few nutters (often anarchists) still support communism or identify as communists in the USA, and in general they tend to chew on each other's shins too much to become an effective social movement. Thus there are communists involved in protesting G20 meetings, and in the Occupy movement and the like, but individual social activists who are communists tend to play down their affiliation, and Communism writ large is otherwise a non-entity in the social movement in the USA.

Note that today in the USA the term "socialist" tends to be confused with communist, has has extremely negative connotations, and is used ad hominem to try to denigrate persons and positions. Unfortunately, this rabid hatred against socialism and association of social activism has contributed to impeding social development in the USA.

For example, the USA does not have universal health care, despite universal health care providing lower cost to the government, lower cost to individuals, better health, and longer life as compared to similar nations such as Canada, and elements in the USA are willing to send the USA into an economic catastrophe through debt default rather than accept a step toward universal health care. Two other examples of social retardation are the incarceration rate in the USA and the gun death and murder rates in the USA, both of which are off the charts when compared to similar first world nations. When compared to other G7 nations, the USA has a long way to go to catch up in social equality. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and with this the freedom and opportunity of Americans is lessened. But since social movement is equated with communism in the USA, the communism of the first few decades of the 20th century is still a lead weight tied to the necks of present social activists working on these and other social issues, for when they try to present fact based rational arguments for their positions, they have to face adversaries spewing little balls of defecate derision (well, more like great balls of flaming shit) by associating them with the worst of communism: movement on a social issue = socialism = communism = evil = anti-Christian/anti-patriotic/anti-freedom.

As far as dealing with the Tea Party types goes, I don't expect any concerted drive to quash them arising, for although there are left wing extremists just as there are right wing extremists, the Tea Partiers march under the banners of Christianity and patriotism in a deeply religious and deeply patriotic country, and have their anti-establishment base in southern states that play up on generational north-south and racial animosities. It's one thing to move against nutters who are mucking things up, but it is quite a different thing to move against nutters who already have a very solid base.

The early communists never had such a base in the USA, so it was just a matter of improving social and economic conditions to make them irrelevant. As long as the Tea Partiers keep shouting out that they are more religious and more patriotic than their adversaries, and keep appealing to the anti-north vote and to the contrarian vote, they will maintain a powerful base of support for as long as Americans tend to be a deeply religious, patriotic and north-south and racially fractured country. I expect that as the USA develops socially, more and more people will start to recognize the resulting social and economic benefits that they will come to enjoy, and will start to marginalize Tea Party type nutters, but this will take time. To some degree it is a boot strapping operation: to make changes that increase social and economic well being (particularly in the South, with it's long-standing racism impeding its political and economic well being) one must marginalize the nutters, but to marginalize the nutters one must increase social and economic well being. Progress can take time.

[Chocodile]

I was just trying to find a comparison to similar extremist political groups and thought that in the interest of balanced opinion it was best to pick one from the other dugout.

I expect that as the USA develops socially, more and more people will start to recognize the resulting social and economic benefits that they will come to enjoy, and will start to marginalize Tea Party type nutters, but this will take time. To some degree it is a boot strapping operation: to make changes that increase social and economic well being (particularly in the South, with it's long-standing racism impeding its political and economic well being) one must marginalize the nutters, but to marginalize the nutters one must increase social and economic well being. Progress can take time.

But this is my fear about the Tea Party. They largely support positions that actually are not beneficial to them, particularly in regard to taxes and government services. But the Koch brothers have convinced them that a rising tide lifts all boats. If economic conditions continue to stagnate, there will be more people piling on and they will continue making things worse for themselves. In addition, they will become more isolationist and blame the country's problems on Mexicans and Chinese & Japanese, thus narrowing acceptance of other ethic groups. Thus "changes to increase social and economic well being" will not happen. It's much easier to blame the government for your situation than yourself.

I have to argue this point:

(particularly in the South, with it's long-standing racism impeding its political and economic well being)

I live in the South. There is no more racism here than there is in the Northeast where I also spent many years. They are strongly against Obama and conceal it with talk about Muslims, but there is no abundance of Tea Partiers and Red States all you want and I won't complain, but don't disparage an entire region and lump all of its people together. I understand that it's difficult. I bitch about Texas and California all the time, but I'm sure there are some people there that aren't total assholes.

[Muffin]

A very well written article that traces how southern racism led to the Tea Party and the shutdown:
"How Racism Caused The Shutdown" by Zack Beauchamp.

[Veb]

Real rumblings of discontent within Republican ranks as the default approaches and the GOP plummets in the polls: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/14/op...html?hpt=hp_t4 This whole fiasco is all the more mind boggling after the GOP's serious self-examination after the trauma of Obama's reelection. Their goals of more inclusion, diversity, etc. lasted about 10 seconds once the Tea Party extremists yowled in outrage. It's sad, because there was some very clear realization that the party had to change its tactics and perceptions in order to thrive. When longtime conservatives actually voice that shedding the Tea Party might be the best thing for the GOP, maybe that's a sign of hope.

That's for the long term though. I think we're going to default. And even if it's miraculously averted, a lot of damage has already been done.

[Xploder]

Let me throw this in there - just to make things a bit murkier. If the government, such as it is these days, actually has managed to backend Truecrypt, then a shitload of people are going to be screwed. Personally, I couldn't give a fuck less whose fault it is, either right or left since it's pretty goddamn obvious that neither side gives a shit about thee or me, but, I do quite a bit of high-end esoteric math crap which I'd just as soon not see the government snag before I at least get a chance to publish. Also, yes, I am Xploding Cobra there if you happen to read the comments. Also, Also, you can pretty much ignore anything written by the user: out of the blue and if that person is one of you guys then you SUCK and not in a good way.

Yeah, all this shit has me pretty fucking pissed off and depressed, especially when you get assholes who shouldn't even still have a job after addmitting that they fucking lied to Congress (I'm looking at you James Clapper) saying things like their metric isn't so much to actually, ya know, catch terrorists as it is to give "peace of mind". Now then, I don't know about YOU guys but if I know, if I seriously KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my government is watching everything that I do online, my behavior is going to change completely and I won't be me any more, I'd just be one more paranoid dumbass afraid of everything online.

Peace of mind my ass.

Also, GET THE FUCK BACK TO WORK. Why the fuck do they get paid for sitting on their ass?

Shit.

[Tuckerfan]

One step forward, two steps back.

House Republicans surprised Senate negotiators earlier Tuesday when they announced they were pursuing their own framework. Moving quickly, House Speaker John Boehner's office announced late Tuesday afternoon that the chamber would vote by the end of the night.

But a vital meeting of the House Rules Committee, which prepares bills for the floor, was then postponed -- a signal that House leaders were lacking the necessary votes.

Fox News is told that a decision by the conservative group Heritage Action to come out against the emerging bill drove some Republicans to oppose the plan -- and helped sideline the proposal.

Fitch prepares to downgrade the US government's credit rating.

Fitch Ratings took a step toward cutting the U.S. government's AAA debt rating Tuesday, as the clock ticked toward the Thursday deadline to raise the nation's debt ceiling or risk default.

Chicago-based Fitch, the third-largest of the major debt-rating companies behind Standard & Poor's and Moody's Investors Service, put U.S. Treasury bonds on Rating Watch Negative, which is sometimes but not always a first step before a downgrade. Fitch said in a statement that it still thinks the debt ceiling will be raised in time to prevent a default.

Pat Buchanan says the GOP has to destroy the country in order to save it.

In a column fittingly titled “Republicans, Stand Up – Polls Be Damned!,” Pat Buchanan calls on Republicans in Congress not to give up on the push to derail Obamacare, even if it means the collapse of the Republican Party. If the GOP goes down, Buchanan writes, Republicans should bring America down with them as he urges the GOP to be like Samson, who killed himself along with countless Philistines in bringing down the temple. “Republicans should refuse to raise the white flag and insist on an honorable avenue of retreat,” Buchanan claims. “And if Harry Reid’s Senate demands the GOP end the sequester on federal spending, or be blamed for a debt default, the party should, Samson-like, bring down the roof of the temple on everybody’s head.”

By contrast, Pat Robertson says its time for the GOP to give up.

The Republicans have got to wave the white flag and say, ‘We fought a good fight and now it’s over. They cannot shut the government down and then bring about a default. We can’t do it. I mean, it would be devastating economically to every human being and the Republicans just can’t get tarred with that. So they tried and if they go to the electorate and say, ‘We tried, Obamacare was awful, we tried to get it underway and we weren’t successful, the Democrats wanted it, they fought for it and they wouldn’t let go so it’s their bill, their program.’

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by Tuckerfan

stuff

When it come to religious nutters like Buchanan, nothing he says or does really surprises me any more.

Of course, then you have types like Robertson saying

So they tried and if they go to the electorate and say, ‘We tried, Obamacare was awful, we tried to get it underway and we weren’t successful, the Democrats wanted it, they fought for it and they wouldn’t let go so it’s their bill, their program.’

because the blame game ALWAYS helps matters get better.

Sometimes I despair for our republic.

[Chocodile]

Originally Posted by Muffin

A very well written article that traces how southern racism led to the Tea Party and the shutdown:
"How Racism Caused The Shutdown" by Zack Beauchamp.

Written by Zack Beauchamp for an organization that claims to be non-partisan but has no self-identified members of any party other than Democratic in any executive position. And what's a good way to hit the liberal hotbuttons in California and the Northeast? Play to the stereotype that Southerners are racist and backward.

It's correct that Southern Democrats were solidly in favor of segregation and left the party because of it. But that was more than fifty years ago. And all that article does is explain how the South gained power in the GOP and then used that power to oppose National Healthcare and force a shutdown.

So it’d be implausible, to put it mildly, to say that modern racism has nothing to do with the shutdown fight. That being said, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly what its role is, and it’d be overly simplistic to reduce the whole shebang to racial animus. One of historical racism’s many political children — our right-polarized South — has to play an important role, one that’s independent of ongoing racial prejudice.

IOW, we don't exactly know how we can blame racism for the shutdown, or to political conservatism, but it makes a great headline so we'll go with it.

[BJMoose]

The problem with saying how much simple racism affects things these days is the fact that most people have learned not to admit in public that they hold racist notions. I'm inclined to think racism plays a bigger role in current affairs than is generally thought. But, as I say, proving that proposition is something of a bitch. (Anyone else get the impression that the rank-and-file Tea Party folks are people who, fifty years ago, would have been Birchers or whatnot?)

[Harry]

Perhaps. But without Google, most of them probably wouldn't know who John Birch was.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally Posted by Chocodile

IOW, we don't exactly know how we can blame racism for the shutdown, or to political conservatism, but it makes a great headline so we'll go with it.

You get any emails from friends or family who have Tea Party sympathies? I do, and nearly all of it has some kind of racist undertone. I'm constantly being updated on how the fight to prove Obama was really born in Kenya is going, how Obama is bringing in the illegals from Mexico to rig elections, that the reason there wasn't any looting in Japan in after the tsunami was because they're weren't any "takers" (handily illustrated by showing photos of African-Americans removing items from stores in NOLA after Katrina hit), hyper-ventilated accounts of how the media is concealing the fact that Treyvon wasn't carrying a can of tea when he was killed, but a watermelon flavored drink, along with quotes from Tea Party politicians and references to the Confederacy.

These aren't from folks who call themselves racist or find the blather from groups like the KKK appealing. Many of them even work happily alongside various minorities, and wouldn't hesitate to lambaste someone who shouted racial slurs at one of their coworkers. But get them talking about Obama and they adopt a certain tone of voice, while dropping vague phrases which indicate that they think Obama is no different than the guys who go around with their pants sagging down to their knees. If pressed, the best you could get them to say would be that they just don't think that Obama is the "right kind of black person to be President."

These emails are forwarded to dozens of people (at least from the folks I get them from, no telling how many others send them on, or how many were sent before the person who forwarded it to me got it), all with panicked comments about how, "Its not racist to say this," or "I'm not a racist," or "They'll call me racist for saying this, but..." They don't like Democrats, but there's "something" about Obama that just makes him seem worse than all the other Democrats who've been in the White House.

Again, these guys wouldn't condone someone burning a cross on a person's lawn, but that Obama guy gives them an extra bit of unease they wouldn't have if it were Biden running the show. (They would have a similar unease if Hillary was President, based on the comments they make.) Still, with every argument about Obama's actions, they have to make a mention of his skin color, or make jabs about him being a "secret Muslim."

Would they make the same comments about Colin Powell if he were President? Not if he was elected as a Republican, but they would interject comments about how they "wished more black people were like him." So its not overt racism on their part, but it is racism, nonetheless, fueled by the fact that Obama's a Democrat.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally Posted by Harry

Perhaps. But without Google, most of them probably wouldn't know who John Birch was.

Given the average age, I think most of them are old enough to remember the John Birch Society's "glory days."

Tea Party supporters are likely to be older, white and male. Forty percent are age 55 and over, compared with 32 percent of all poll respondents; just 22 percent are under the age of 35, 79 percent are white, and 61 percent are men. Many are also Christian fundamentalists, with 44 percent identifying themselves as “born-again,” compared with 33 percent of all respondents.

[Erving#6]

What do you do when you can't get your shit together? Sing amazing Grace!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4101319.html

[Muffin]

What would it take to remove the debt limit/budget ceiling?

Almost all first world nations do not have a debt limit/budget ceiling. We have budgets but we do not have debt limits, so that we have flexibility to meet economic changes and so that we do not become deadbeat debtors the way the USA is threatening to become.

What would it take to remove the USA debt limit, such that it would have spending limits/budget controls but not debt limits?

Another way to look at it is what would it take for the USA’s government to decide how it intends to pay for itself before it decides to spend, rather than for it to spend and then threaten default when it comes time to pay the piper?

In short, what would it take to stop the tail from wagging the dog.

I submit that if the USA changed its model in this way, the Republicans would have far less ability to hold the country for ransom by threatening massive debt payment default, which in turn would lead to a more democratic and representative congress rather than a congress that is severely dysfunctional and to quite some degree disconnected from the people it is supposed to represent.

[Tuckerfan]

It would take a major shift in American political thought. Right now, the Republicans use debt as the club to beat back any Democratic proposal. Never mind that both parties have ran up the deficit while they've been in power, the Republicans claim that if there was no debt ceiling, the Democrats would simply spend money like water. Until the Republicans can admit that some amount of debt is acceptable, you'll never see legislation to remove the ceiling.

[Chacoguy]

The Republicans cave.

[Muffin]

I wonder what Cruz and the rest of the nutters will do next to top this one?

[Chacoguy]

Sepuku would be cool.

[Veb]

The Tea Party and the very rich fatcats who fund them will go after mainline Republicans in the primaries. Which was the only point of this whole fiasco. Cruz's "filibuster", you know, the one where he read Green Eggs and Ham into the record? wasn't even really a filibuster. It was just grandstanding. Same with the supposed goal of defunding the ACA. It was court-tested law and already in effect. The sons of bitches trashed the economy and the country's credit rating to whip up their moron base for the primaries. They've already driven out some really fine Republican congresscritters. But now they'll really be after the blood of any Republican who might run against them.

Nothing is over. Get ready for the prolonged wacko show. More Cruzes and Palins, anyone?

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Veb

The Tea Party and the very rich fatcats who fund them will go after mainline Republicans in the primaries. Which was the only point of this whole fiasco. Cruz's "filibuster", you know, the one where he read Green Eggs and Ham into the record? wasn't even really a filibuster. It was just grandstanding.

Was it "grandstanding" when Lois Frankel (D-Florida) read Yurtle the Turtle on the house floor?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...:H10OC3-0065:/

[Glazer]

Once again missing the noun for the adjective.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Glazer

Once again missing the noun for the adjective.

In all seriousness, and with all due respect, what the fuck are you are talking about?

[Vandervecken]

Brian, considering our recent détente, I have a favor to ask. Will you please consider making your avatar a snarling Chihuahua? I'll even dig up the .jpg for you.

It would add so much to your posts. Please consider this humble request.

Your pal, Vandy

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Vandervecken

Brian, considering our recent détente, I have a favor to ask. Will you please consider making your avatar a snarling Chihuahua? I'll even dig up the .jpg for you.

It would add so much to your posts. Please consider this humble request.

Your pal, Vandy

Explain Glazer's post, and I will consider your proposal.

[Vandervecken]

Originally Posted by Brian

Explain Glazer's post, and I will consider your proposal.

Grammar ain't my strong suit. Where's Cariola when we need her?

[Glazer]

Veb's point was that he was grandstanding and distracting from actually getting anything done. You latch on to a detail also to distract from the point being made. Common tactic of yours. Ignor the arguement being made and side rail with an extraneous detail.

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by Glazer

Veb's point was that he was grandstanding and distracting from actually getting anything done. You latch on to a detail also to distract from the point being made. Common tactic of yours. Ignor the arguement being made and side rail with an extraneous detail.

Not always...sometimes, he just keeps on stating somkething wrong while insisting that it's true...over and over and over and over ad nauseum.

[Muffin]

Nice to see that despite the government shutdown being over, Brian's brain's shutdown continues unabated.

[Harry]

Originally Posted by Muffin

... the government shutdown being over,

Sadly, it isn't over, it's just postponed. We're going to get to keep repeating this every year until some real changes are made.

[Chacoguy]

I agree in the short term, but this level of craziness is unsustainable in the long term.

[SmartAleq]

I get the feeling this is not going to work again, ever.

[Brian]

Originally Posted by Glazer

Veb's point was that he was grandstanding and distracting from actually getting anything done. You latch on to a detail also to distract from the point being made. Common tactic of yours. Ignor the arguement being made and side rail with an extraneous detail.

So Frankel WASN'T "grandstanding and distracting from actually getting anything done"? Really? I honestly don't see how you can have it both ways.

[Glazer]

Missed the point again. Side track the issue again. You don't have an honest bone in your body. Frankel as loathsome as he is has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Everyone here calling you stupid are way off base. You know exactly what you're doing. And your good at it too. Better than Ken/Dio even. Hats off to you brother.

[Chacoguy]

Originally Posted by Glazer

Missed the point again. Side track the issue again. You don't have an honest bone in your body. Frankel as loathsome as he is has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Everyone here calling you stupid are way off base. You know exactly what you're doing. And your good at it too. Better than Ken/Dio even. Hats off to you brother.

<Ding>

'Cept there's a whole bunch of 'em.

[Erving#6]

Originally Posted by Brian

Was it "grandstanding" when Lois Frankel (D-Florida) read Yurtle the Turtle on the house floor?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...:H10OC3-0065:/

A 1 minute grandstand? Desperate bro.

[Clockwork Jackal]

Originally Posted by Muffin

Nice to see that despite the government shutdown being over, Brian's brain's shutdown continues unabated.

It's like playing chess with a pigeon, eh?

[Chacoguy]

See?