Judge Tosses Out Utah's Anti-Gay Marriage Bill

[BrickaBracka]

Originally Posted by Dirty Old Uncle Roger

Bill Clinton. So not quite 50 years.

I didn't know that was a recent thing...for some reason I had it stuck in my head that it came from the 60's...

[Dirty Old Uncle Roger]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

I didn't know that was a recent thing...for some reason I had it stuck in my head that it came from the 60's...

Beginning of the country - Clinton ---> homosexuality is a crime under the UCMJ, to be treated like any other crime.

Clinton - Obama ---> Homosexuality means a discharge from service if it comes to light, but nobody is expected to pursue rumors or hints of homosexuality on the part of a servicemember.

Today ---> Homosexuality is not a concern for military discipline of any kind.

[BrickaBracka]

Originally Posted by Dirty Old Uncle Roger

Beginning of the country - Clinton ---> homosexuality is a crime under the UCMJ, to be treated like any other crime.

Clinton - Obama ---> Homosexuality means a discharge from service if it comes to light, but nobody is expected to pursue rumors or hints of homosexuality on the part of a servicemember.

Today ---> Homosexuality is not a concern for military discipline of any kind.

So, lemme get this straight. Up until DADT, it was straight up ILLEGAL to simply BE gay in the military. Clinton passes DADT, and essentially decriminalizes it, but doesn't remove all consequences. A step forward for gays, without making the squawkers go nuts. And this is the law people were freaking out about, screaming that it must be "repealed", because it's so awful?

Nope...it was a stepping stone towards their own fucking goal. Build on that shit, don't tear it down. Anyway, Obama apparently made it a non-issue now.

Kinda sounds like it has been progressing at the pace I expected. Clinton laid the base, Obama built on it, so eventually the rest of gov't will follow. 50 years ain't too far off, and is looking likely. Probably before turn of the next century, but doubtful before I die.

[Dirty Old Uncle Roger]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

So, lemme get this straight. Up until DADT, it was straight up ILLEGAL to simply BE gay in the military. Clinton passes DADT, and essentially decriminalizes it, but doesn't remove all consequences. A step forward for gays, without making the squawkers go nuts. And this is the law people were freaking out about, screaming that it must be "repealed", because it's so awful?

Well, repealing DADT would basically remove the last legal impediment to being Gay in the military.

Nope...it was a stepping stone towards their own fucking goal. Build on that shit, don't tear it down. Anyway, Obama apparently made it a non-issue now.

Kinda sounds like it has been progressing at the pace I expected. Clinton laid the base, Obama built on it, so eventually the rest of gov't will follow. 50 years ain't too far off, and is looking likely. Probably before turn of the next century, but doubtful before I die.

I'd say within the next decade. A few more states just legalized Gay marriage.

It's all over but the crying of right wing nuts, now.

[hajario]

Originally Posted by Dirty Old Uncle Roger

Well, repealing DADT would basically remove the last legal impediment to being Gay in the military.

I'd say within the next decade. A few more states just legalized Gay marriage.

It's all over but the crying of right wing nuts, now.

Legal in the US? That will happen in five or six years, IMO.

Brickabracka was talking about the rest of the world.

[Dirty Old Uncle Roger]

Originally Posted by hajario

Legal in the US? That will happen in five or six years, IMO.

Brickabracka was talking about the rest of the world.

Ah. It's not that I am not concerned with the rest of the world, it's just that the rest of the world is someone else's problem. I have no say in how other nations do business. I do have a stake in how my country does business, though.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

So, lemme get this straight. Up until DADT, it was straight up ILLEGAL to simply BE gay in the military. Clinton passes DADT, and essentially decriminalizes it, but doesn't remove all consequences. A step forward for gays, without making the squawkers go nuts. And this is the law people were freaking out about, screaming that it must be "repealed", because it's so awful?

Nope...it was a stepping stone towards their own fucking goal. Build on that shit, don't tear it down.

I know this is old, but nobody actually answered. The reason people squawked was because Clinton was a gigantic pussy about it. He campaigned on gays in the military, it was one of the very first things he did once he was inaugurated, and the minute he got The least bit of resistance he crumpled like a house of cards and instituted DADT. If he had started by saying that he was just going to try and weaken the anti-gay in the military thing, he would've been cheered by the people who gripe about DADT.

Note that I'm not saying that it wasn't good that he weakened those regs, but I understand the frustration of people who thought military discrimination for gays was finally done only to find out whoops no he just weakened the punishment

[hajario]

Originally Posted by Fenris

I know this is old, but nobody actually answered. The reason people squawked was because Clinton was a gigantic pussy about it. He campaigned on gays in the military, it was one of the very first things he did once he was inaugurated, and the minute he got The least bit of resistance he crumpled like a house of cards and instituted DADT. If he had started by saying that he was just going to try and weaken the anti-gay in the military thing, he would've been cheered by the people who gripe about DADT.

Note that I'm not saying that it wasn't good that he weakened those regs, but I understand the frustration of people who thought military discrimination for gays was finally done only to find out whoops no he just weakened the punishment

Clinton has said that was one of his biggest regrets.

[Fenris]

It should be. Imagine if Truman? Ike? Had said "there'll be racial integration in the military" and then turned around and said "whoops no--some douche bags complained so I'm caving, but if a light skinned black guy sneaks in, we won't look for him-although we will court-martial him and kick him out if we find out"

It was one of the most cravenly cowardly take-backs a president has ever done.

The correct response would have been to say "you military guys who are protesting? You don't like it? tough shit. I'm Commander-in-Chief, feel free to resign. "

[Tuckerfan]

Originally Posted by Fenris

It should be. Imagine if Truman? Ike? Had said "there'll be racial integration in the military" and then turned around and said "whoops no--some douche bags complained so I'm caving, but if a light skinned black guy sneaks in, we won't look for him-although we will court-martial him and kick him out if we find out"

It was one of the most cravenly cowardly take-backs a president has ever done.

The correct response would have been to say "you military guys who are protesting? You don't like it? tough shit. I'm Commander-in-Chief, feel free to resign. "

It was Truman, and he had an opportunity that Clinton didn't have. Shortly after WWII, a black veteran was lynched in Texas (they didn't hang him from a tree until after they'd drug him behind a pick up truck for miles), this made the news and pissed Truman off (a WWI combat vet), who thought it was appalling that someone who'd served his country could be murdered because of his race.

So the two situations aren't exactly comparable, but its possible that Clinton could have better managed the issue and ordered gays to be allowed to serve.