NPR and the audience age out

[Khampelf]

Calligraphy is also popular with the Society for Creative Anachronism. Of course they also dress up in armor and hit each other with sticks, so there's that.

[DrWas]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

Jesus Christ. The amount of energy and text that has gone into a debate over the merits of paper...

it's a rabbit hole that opened up into a cavern of spiders.

Well hopefully NPR will move into the podcast market. But they have a lot of competition. We have more sources of news and infotainment now than ever before.

[Khampelf]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

Jesus Christ. The amount of energy and text that has gone into a debate over the merits of paper...

it's a rabbit hole that opened up into a cavern of spiders.

A thread's not been ground into a pulp until it devolves into puns.


HEY, COOL! SPIDERS!!!


Let's now devolve into a discussion of how much thread drift is pleasing to the various members....

[Pere]

Originally Posted by DrWas

Well hopefully NPR will move into the podcast market. But they have a lot of competition. We have more sources of news and infotainment now than ever before.

NPR is already well established in the podcast market. I have several of their programs in my feed. But they have this weird, tense dynamic where they don't quite want to promote their podcasts in their broadcasts.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by DrWas

Fair enough. I live in a constant state of anxiety and agitation sort of disconnected from what is actually going on from moment to moment. So I am not so offended by comments such as these. If you tell me my argument is a straw man, I might argue that it isn't.

I am not arguing that paper will vanish, only that it is slowly being relegated to other functions besides simply writing down lists.

Well, FFS, SAY that. I tend to agree more with this, rather than your previous fiat.

I don't see that POV at all. So much easier to write a memo. Maybe you're on an iPhone or something and don't use Swype or something that makes typing a lot faster on a phone. My wife can send me suggestions and I can Copy and Paste them. If it's a text message I don't need to copy it at all. My phone is ubiquitous for me. If I drop or lose it that is independent of it being a grocery list. I type about 100WPM on a QWERTY keyboard and can do about 60WPM on my phone. Handwriting takes me longer. And I am more likely to lose a post-it than I am to lose my phone. The downside risk is lower, but the likelihood of data loss is higher.

Yes. But as Moose has said: people use tech differently. One is not inherently superior to the other. I don't write all that much now, either--but then I always preferred to use a typewriter for most things. My handwriting is suffering, but it was never pretty "girl" cursive, anyway. One thing does sadden me: nobody will ever tie a lover's emails or texts up in a faded ribbon and reminisce on rainy afternoons over them... (including me).

I am nearly 40. People younger than me tend to use their phones. Sure plenty of young people use paper. But there is a contingent of folks that don't even OWN paper. I suppose you do not interact with that contingent much. With the advent of AI assistant apps, it will become even more ubiquitous. Within ten years the apps will integrate with a store's CRM and might even plot out a map of where the goods you want are in the store so it will just guide you from one thing on your list to another. Also. If you REALLY want to get into it. In New York you can get your groceries delivered. Every grocery store delivers and most Bodega/Delis deliver also. As they integrate technology people won't even go into the physical stores anymore and carrying a list will be a moot point. The store's application will probably have a wishlist feature that can be shared between multiple users. It is only going to get more convenient.

This is the kind of thing that you post that makes me mildly nuts. Hey, in Chicago, you can get your groceries delivered, too! In the suburbs, even! And we have running water and we dress our own selves and everything! Anyway, you seem to forget that you are living in a bubble. There are many, many New Yorkers and other people in the USA and around the world who cannot afford to have their groceries delivered. (or even afford groceries, but we're really not talking about them).

And what of the privacy issues with those apps? If they can be used anonymously, that's great. But there is already talk of value pricing the most basic of dry goods. Soon, if they (businesses) have their way, we will all be paying different prices for everything on the shelves. Is that what we really want? It's only tangentially related to this thread, but the reliance on mobile devices pushes the questions of privacy and who has a right to our information etc.

Twitter is a company that has yet to turn a profit and will likely go bankrupt and vanish or be bought by Facebook in the next 5 years. They are poorly managed.

Ok. So what? I agree with you re the transmission of small packages of info between people.

Paper is a trend that has lasted for a long time. It will become more and more of a niche product as generations get used to tablets and everyone has a tablet on them at all times. As Augmented Reality puts a HUD in your glasses, even that will start to fade away. The ubiquity of information and the ease with which it can be accessed by speaking a few words or tapping a screen a couple of times is only going to increase.

Paper is not a trend. It may be not be supreme anymore, but it is hardly as ephemeral as last year's hemlines. Everyone is not going to have a tablet--you don't seem to realize this. Remember the digital divide? It's going to wider and that widening will create more and different tensions within our society. Humans use screens and paper differently when thinking, planning and organizing. I would find the studies to show you, but I lack time to do so. This popped into my email today, though, and I thought you would like it:
GrapheneElectronicPaper

You still seem to be stuck on this idea that I think all will be rosy when the old people die off. I do not, I merely think it will be different. The changes that occur after my time will not be to move backwards technologically unless some sort of extinction level event occurs that wrecks civilization and destroys our capacity to manufacture high tech products. Which is possible. In which case paper will make a comeback in a big way.

I am "stuck" because you state such things. This paragraph relates your POV much more cogently. And if the world has some kind of massive energy crisis, then paper of some kind will come back in a big way.

In Africa where paper is more expensive than text messaging, SMS runs a lot of applications, and there has been much written about technology skipping a step. Those areas will never have landline phones ever. That infrastructure simply will not be laid. But they have cell phones and smart phones now. Producing paper at an industrial scale is a very inefficient way to transport information. The logistical supply lines to get the paper from one place to another is difficult.

This makes perfect sense to me. Until now, the price and effort have outweighed the costs. My point is that it won't fade as quickly as you think. That's all.

Corsets never came back as a standard part of the wardrobe, they are a fashion accessory that is essentially a niche product. Not every woman owns one.

Yes, I said this in my post.

Paper is environmentally wasteful and requires as a massive logistical supply chain that is made unecessary by digital communication. Watch as the environmentalism trend starts to question whether or not growing paper trees in a monocrop, killing trees en masse, and burning fossil fuels to manufacture and transport it is something that people will continue to think is a value they want to support. People will continue to have electronic devices, which have a higher ecological footprint than paper. But we aren't measuring the ecological footprint of electronic devices VERSUS paper. We are measuring electronic devices AND paper versus just electronic devices.

Eh, those electronic devices carry an ecological price, too. I do hope you don't want to do away with trees.... (joke).

Sure, as a fashion accessory, just like corsets. They will be a niche market. Obtainable in stationary stores or from Amazon. Today in my business networking group, the speaker brought a door prize which was a Moleskine planner. One lady commented about the winner of the door prize, "She is probably the only person in this group that still keeps a paper calendar.", the speaker has been an architect almost as long as I have been alive.

But there is nothing wrong with wanting to keep a moleskin journal. Hell, write with a quill on foolscap, if that's where your heart lies. I'm fine with that.

Actually it's the opposite. I think the world isn't going to go my way. Politically, I think the world is picking the path of a great amount of suffering when it's totally unecessary. We could have an era of unprecedented prosperity, but I think we are following obsolete ideologies that are heading us toward war and civil unrest.

I was referring to the e-devices vs paper here, not the general 2016 election etc.

Technologically I have a very good track record of assessing trends and being right about it. I am actually a late adopter of social media fads because I was using technology that resembled Twitter when Jack Dorsey was still in High School. No doubt he was using them too. Twitter is based off of IRC.

Um, ok. I don't doubt you do know tech. But I know people, having served them for the last 40 years. Human nature doesn't change much, really. I don't believe that today's teens are all that different from when I was a teen or you were. They face different challenges, but people are people, no matter what. Throughout all our "talks", I have been trying to get you to see the human face of all this change and tech and revolution.

One way to extrapolate technological trends is to look at the way society is going and you can predict that innovation will basically follow reliable paths based on trajectories it has been following. So if you look at things and think, "That trend will continue only it will become more efficient, easier to use and be less expensive.", then you're going to be correct 9 times out of 10. And a text message is simply a more efficient way to communicate than a post-it note.

Not if you want to mark your lunch in the office refrigerator.

[Pere]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

One thing does sadden me: nobody will ever tie a lover's emails or texts up in a faded ribbon and reminisce on rainy afternoons over them... (including me).

Nor will anyone leaf through the emails they got from their parents and grandparents, years ago when they were alive.

I actually think this is pretty important, and I encourage everyone to write occasional paper letters to your loved ones. Aside from the memento factor, it's kind of interesting how the composition process is different.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I agree. I have a grade school friend who still writes pen-and-paper letters and is not on Facebook. He does have email but prefers to keep writing as we did when we were 13 and I moved away. Good guy. I write back the same way and it makes me think, I should do this with more people. I used to send a lot of snail mail but email kind of blew it up.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

Jesus Christ. The amount of energy and text that has gone into a debate over the merits of paper...

it's a rabbit hole that opened up into a cavern of spiders.

What's it to you? We're actually talking about change and the human response to it. It is a great deal more than the merits of paper.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by Pere

NPR is already well established in the podcast market. I have several of their programs in my feed. But they have this weird, tense dynamic where they don't quite want to promote their podcasts in their broadcasts.

Yes. I believe I posted that upthread, but it may have been in another thread. I've lost track.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by Pere

Nor will anyone leaf through the emails they got from their parents and grandparents, years ago when they were alive.

I actually think this is pretty important, and I encourage everyone to write occasional paper letters to your loved ones. Aside from the memento factor, it's kind of interesting how the composition process is different.

Originally Posted by Mr. Plumbean

I agree. I have a grade school friend who still writes pen-and-paper letters and is not on Facebook. He does have email but prefers to keep writing as we did when we were 13 and I moved away. Good guy. I write back the same way and it makes me think, I should do this with more people. I used to send a lot of snail mail but email kind of blew it up.

Sorry for all the posts in a row. In hurry to get to work. I TOTALLY agree, and I'll go even further and say that IMO, literacy has suffered terribly under the advent of email and texting. NOTE: DrWas: I am not calling for them to be abolished!
Letter writing used to be common and the act of writing, knowing that you were communicating with a loved one far away, focused your thoughts and made that writing cogent and even elevated. Now we all sound like illiterate boobs. Please don't try to tell me that L33T speak or whatever is some valuable tributary to the river of the English language. It's a footnote and let us hope it remains so. Pioneers, those that had some education, could write and write well (then again, it's the well-written stuff that has survived, so there is an inherent bias in the sample).

But there is more to it than that. Physically writing, that is engaging the hand, arm, brain etc in the act of forming letters, words and sentences, lights up different parts of our brains and therefore is a different experience than typing or "keyboarding" (silly word). It slows thought and allows for second ones, if not outright rumination. Everyone here has written a first draft of a paper or letter or even a book. Doing so releases other thoughts, leading to second drafts etc. With texting and emails, we tend to send the first drafts (and here as well). It makes a huge difference. Not many books are written out in longhand first (and it's not necessary) but sitting down to write a chapter is much like sitting down to write a paper letter to a distant friend--the same mindset can take hold.

I think I am more concerned about what screens are doing to our attention spans than I am about the loss of paper. The immediacy of everything is not totally positive. Sometimes I feel like we have turned into giant walking Ids, all screaming "Me, now!" instead of thinking, thoughtful adults.

I mean if distance has become irrelevant, what happens to perspective?

[BrickaBracka]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

What's it to you? We're actually talking about change and the human response to it. It is a great deal more than the merits of paper.

What's it to me? Nothing. I was making a drive-by snark shot.

Churlish and insubordinate, I know.

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

I'll go even further and say that IMO, literacy has suffered terribly under the advent of email and texting.

This is a common assumption but as far as I know, when it's studied, usage of CMC, or computer-mediated-communication, is neutral to positively correlated with literacy. See this post on Languagelog, especially the bottom section for the studies.

[Mr. Plumbean]

It's good for basic literacy and bad for deep reading.

[Jaglavak]

TLDR

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

This is a common assumption but as far as I know, when it's studied, usage of CMC, or computer-mediated-communication, is neutral to positively correlated with literacy. See this post on Languagelog, especially the bottom section for the studies.

Maybe we should define literacy... For me, I intended "literacy" to mean the considered use of language to communicate complex thought, not just that subject and verb match. I suppose you could argue that "lol" (depending on context) IS a considered use of language to communicate complex thought, but I don't have that kind of time...

I don't mean to imply that the world's going to hell in a handbasket and we should rue the day etc. That's ridiculous. In many ways, the world is much better off than it was pre-internet/cell phone. But I do think some intangibles are getting lost, as is their wont in rapid change, and I do rue that.

[eleanorigby]

Just for fun...
Rookie...

[DrWas]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

Well, FFS, SAY that. I tend to agree more with this, rather than your previous fiat.

You read me a lot more precisely than I write. Whenever I say something is going away, I don't mean it will vanish from this plain of existence, merely that it will become more and more niche as time goes on.

Yes. But as Moose has said: people use tech differently. One is not inherently superior to the other. I don't write all that much now, either--but then I always preferred to use a typewriter for most things. My handwriting is suffering, but it was never pretty "girl" cursive, anyway. One thing does sadden me: nobody will ever tie a lover's emails or texts up in a faded ribbon and reminisce on rainy afternoons over them... (including me).

Ok, so even your use of paper is on the decline.

This is the kind of thing that you post that makes me mildly nuts. Hey, in Chicago, you can get your groceries delivered, too! In the suburbs, even! And we have running water and we dress our own selves and everything! Anyway, you seem to forget that you are living in a bubble. There are many, many New Yorkers and other people in the USA and around the world who cannot afford to have their groceries delivered. (or even afford groceries, but we're really not talking about them).

The point being that it isn't just about one technology replacing another to fulfill the same function. It's also about technology making the sets of behaviors we engage in daily so different that the need for the old technology is gone.

Grocery delivery doesn't cost more than shopping in the store unless you tip the delivery guy (as you should).

And what of the privacy issues with those apps? If they can be used anonymously, that's great. But there is already talk of value pricing the most basic of dry goods. Soon, if they (businesses) have their way, we will all be paying different prices for everything on the shelves. Is that what we really want? It's only tangentially related to this thread, but the reliance on mobile devices pushes the questions of privacy and who has a right to our information etc.

Privacy is a whole other can of worms, but people seem to not actually care that much about it.

Value pricing is problematic, but the world is filled with it already. The poor already pay more for everything that they do than the wealthier. They pay more for banking services, they pay more by buying single serving goods rather than bulk goods.

Ok. So what? I agree with you re the transmission of small packages of info between people.

You mentioned Twitter, so it was my attempt to distill what Twitter does in such a way that the continued existence of Twitter is irrelevant to the functional role that Twitter plays currently. In otherwords my point is that it is about the "USE CASE" and not the particular solution for that use case that is currently in widespread use. Twitter is basically a giant indexable cork board full of post-its.

Paper is not a trend. It may be not be supreme anymore, but it is hardly as ephemeral as last year's hemlines. Everyone is not going to have a tablet--you don't seem to realize this. Remember the digital divide? It's going to wider and that widening will create more and different tensions within our society. Humans use screens and paper differently when thinking, planning and organizing. I would find the studies to show you, but I lack time to do so. This popped into my email today, though, and I thought you would like it:
GrapheneElectronicPaper

Everyone will have a tablet. I would be really surprised if that isn't the case. Or some variation on it, as a Laptop, Smart Phone and Tablet are all just different form factors of the same piece of equipment. Even in the poorest parts of the world, people have cell phones, and they use those phones as productivity tools in addition to communication devices.

As for e-paper, yes, that is becoming a thing. Molekine is putting out smart devices that capture what you write and save it to some kind of computer.

I am "stuck" because you state such things. This paragraph relates your POV much more cogently. And if the world has some kind of massive energy crisis, then paper of some kind will come back in a big way.

We barely tap into the amount of energy that is all around us. Energy efficiency is a major electrical engineering challenge, and grabbing energy from the immediate environment is a big business. Efficiency and production are converging to meet in the middle. In a few decades energy crises will never be global again unless that crisis is the Sun belching out an EMP that wipes out electronics or the magnetosphere turns off or some other cosmic crisis that would be an extinction level event anyway. The industrial model of centralized production in the hands of the few is the great crisis of today, but it's actually totally and completely unnecessary. Everything we need is all around us. Rare Earths that are the tough commodities to acquire are actually everywhere. It's just that in certain parts of the world there is a confluence of factors related to lack of regulation, cheap labor, and high concentrations of particular rare earth elements that makes places like China, Africa and Australia better places to mine it than California. There is a rare Earth mine in California between LA and Vegas that could be turned on pretty quickly if such a crisis ever arose. The NIMBY hippies in California hate the idea, but if such an energy crisis became a thing, their voices would be drowned out very fast. Or else New Mexico or Texas or something would jump at the opportunity to become an energy/electronics commodities powerhouse in rare Earths. For now it makes economic sense to mine it in China since most of the devices built from rare earths are built in China/Taiwan/Korea.

This makes perfect sense to me. Until now, the price and effort have outweighed the costs. My point is that it won't fade as quickly as you think. That's all.

i maintain that there will be a steep cliff in use when Generation X, the last generation to precede the internet dies.

Eh, those electronic devices carry an ecological price, too. I do hope you don't want to do away with trees.... (joke).

They do carry an ecological price. As I said before. But right now we are paying the price for the devices AND for the paper.

But there is nothing wrong with wanting to keep a moleskin journal. Hell, write with a quill on foolscap, if that's where your heart lies. I'm fine with that.

Nothing wrong with it in relative terms. I mean beyond the fact that there is a downside to every action.

Um, ok. I don't doubt you do know tech. But I know people, having served them for the last 40 years. Human nature doesn't change much, really. I don't believe that today's teens are all that different from when I was a teen or you were. They face different challenges, but people are people, no matter what. Throughout all our "talks", I have been trying to get you to see the human face of all this change and tech and revolution.

I am actually hosting a conference in June about the human side of tech and bridging the digital divide.

Not if you want to mark your lunch in the office refrigerator.

I didn't say text messaging would replace masking tape.

[eleanorigby]

Well played sir, but I think I take the palm.

I have to live my life now, but this was fun in an odd way...

[DrWas]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

Well played sir, but I think I take the palm.

I have to live my life now, but this was fun in an odd way...

Be careful. The Sociology of Technology and Science is my favorite topic. And Demography is central to the notion. I'll go on forever about it.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by DrWas

You read me a lot more precisely than I write. Whenever I say something is going away, I don't mean it will vanish from this plain of existence, merely that it will become more and more niche as time goes on.

And how is the reader supposed to know your intent except by the words you write?

I also enjoy sociological aspects of modern life (really, any time in history).

[DrWas]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

And how is the reader supposed to know your intent except by the words you write?

Usually when someone is talking about a trend going out of fashion, they aren't talking about it vanishing from the plain of existence.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by DrWas

Usually when someone is talking about a trend going out of fashion, they aren't talking about it vanishing from the plain of existence.

Oh yeah? What about hoop trundling or pet rocks or poodle skirts? You hadn't considered those, had you???!!!

Check and mate.

[Mr. Plumbean]

FTR it is PLANE of existence.

I was going to let that go but people keep quoting it and I finally snapped.

[Fenris]

Text within quote boxes is sacrosanct and must never be tampered with lest the Giraffeboard be threatened with a lawsuit by the quote-box tampered person. Who's reputation in real life has been forever besmirched by the tampered quote linked to his online pseudnym.*


*This really is the reason that the Dope has such a quote-box purity fetish. Someone made a threat that stupid against them...and they caved.

[DrWas]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Oh yeah? What about hoop trundling or pet rocks or poodle skirts? You hadn't considered those, had you???!!!

Check and mate.

[Nonny J. Nonnington III]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Text within quote boxes is sacrosanct and must never be tampered with lest the Giraffeboard be threatened with a lawsuit by the quote-box tampered person. Who's Whose reputation in real life has been forever besmirched by the tampered quote linked to his online pseudnym pseudonym.*


*This really is the reason that the Dope has such a quote-box purity fetish. Someone made a threat that stupid against them...and they caved.

This is going to get me boxed, isn't it?

[Khampelf]

** discretely slips a 'get out of the box free' card to Nonny³**

[Mr. Plumbean]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Text within quote boxes is sacrosanct and must never be tampered with lest the Giraffeboard be threatened with a lawsuit by the quote-box tampered person. I like to put hedgehogs in my rear-end.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Mr. Plumbean

Now I will SUE you and the Giraffeboard because my in-real-life professional reputation has been forever besmirched by this loathesome attack!

[Khampelf]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Now I will SUE you and the Giraffeboard because my in-real-life professional reputation has been forever besmirched by this loathesome attack!

Jesus, Fenris, overreact much? What's up your ass, today?

[Mr. Plumbean]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Now I will SUE you and the Giraffeboard because my in-real-life professional reputation has been forever besmirched confirmed by this loathesome attack!

FTFY

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Khampelf

Jesus, Fenris, overreact much? What's up your ass, today?

Apparently a hedgehog, according to some slanderous mutant.

[Khampelf]

You have Admin powers. Could you (theoretically) change Plumbean's name to 'Slanderous Mutant'?

Just askin'.

[Jaglavak]

If he's got such awesome Admin powers, you'd think he could pry a hedgehog out of his own butt.

[Fenris]

That does it. You are all on double-secret probation. Boxings may or may not ensue (unless you're on topic, in which case...I probably shouldn't mess with you.)

[BJMoose]

The real lawsuit will come from the badgers, who deeply resent being characterized as hedgehogs.

[Khampelf]

Awww, Geez! I wasn't doin' nothing, Mr. Fenris, I was just sayin'.


On Topic - I still don't listen to as much NPR as I should because I'm not old enough yet.