Li'l Ed Kills Cecil Adams

[BJMoose]

A few minutes ago, in a fit of abject boredom, I went over to the SDMB. I didn't get past the Dope front page, for there, staring at me like a jackbooted marmoset, was the title of Cecil's current column:


"Who controls the content on an Internet message board?"


In a world teeming with ignorant sluts, this is the best topic he can find? The Dope used to be about Fighting Ignorance; taking on questions great and small, obvious and obscure, profound and weird, with some occasionally caustic humor thrown in. It was interesting, dammit. And informative. And different.

And so the Babbitization of Ed Zotti is complete. Ahab had his white whale; Li'l Ed has his message board. His mania for online profits has finally infected Cecil's column. He has fragged the franchise. Cecil is dead. Services pending.

I've nothing against a man earning a living, but I'd rather Ed do it by resharpening saw blades for Norm Abrams or something.



(Actually, Cecil probably passed on to the great Door Number Three in the Sky a couple of years back when Ed was working on his latest book and obviously just "phoning in" the column.)

[The Futility of Nihilism]

To be honest, the Straight Dope column stopped being interesting to me years ago. I think the reason is that Ed himself burned out on it years ago but refuses to give it up. I would think that the new owners would have gotten themselves a new "Cecil Adams" by now, but I guess the whole SD column (and the MB along with it) is very low on their priorities.

[severe delays]

I wonder if this is more a symptom of the internet age than anything else. Back in the day if you had a burning question that you couldn't answer via friends, colleagues or library books you might write to a newspaper and ask. And in the earlier days of the internet that tradition continued online because there weren't easily-accessible sources of knowledge. Now everyone and their dog knows how to google or go to wikipedia and get at least the bare bones of information. And we get it for free and instantly. So who would email a website/media outlet and hope they reply in a few months with some interesting facts?

[Hunter Hawk]

I occasionally find myself wondering what Zotti actually does for a living. I don't know how much time his SD "editing" duties would take up, for example, and I can't imagine that the column would be some massive source of income. A drive-by search of the Chicago Reader web site reveals no useful information.

So what does the guy do for eight hours a day?

[Roo]

For anyone else interested in a link:

Who controls the content on an Internet message board?

It's about copyright law as applied to the internet. I thought it was somewhat timely with the Facebook application of the restriction of users not having rights to anything posted there, which was later amended. And then there was a tie-in to how the SDMB handles that. It didn't go far enough, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions in that area, I think.

[Hunter Hawk]

Originally Posted by Roo

I thought it was somewhat timely with the Facebook application of the restriction of users not having rights to anything posted there

Sure, if by "somewhat timely" you mean "eight months after the incident in question".

[Roo]

Originally Posted by Hunter Hawk

Sure, if by "somewhat timely" you mean "eight months after the incident in question".

Yeah, I didn't mean 'breaking news' or anything, which really might have been less useful, since it would be less settled. I just meant that it wasn't so outdated that it didn't have relevance or so generalized that it could have been written at any time.

[BJMoose]

Originally Posted by severe delays

I wonder if this is more a symptom of the internet age than anything else. Back in the day if you had a burning question that you couldn't answer via friends, colleagues or library books you might write to a newspaper and ask. And in the earlier days of the internet that tradition continued online because there weren't easily-accessible sources of knowledge. Now everyone and their dog knows how to google or go to wikipedia and get at least the bare bones of information. And we get it for free and instantly. So who would email a website/media outlet and hope they reply in a few months with some interesting facts?

That might have a bit of an impact, especially on the boards (though with their traffic level, who'd notice?), but surely there is no lack of "off-beat" questions that used to be Cecil's bread-and-butter. In fact, a couple of years back the question of questions to Cecil came up at the Dope, and I asked Dex if he'd post ten recently-asked questions. He graciously did so. (The only one I recall is "Why is there an expiration date on bottled water?") On the basis of that, I'd say he is not lacking for questions. And, of course, one reason for the message board was to supply an endless fount of possible column material.

Besides, even if answers seem readily available these days, that hardly precludes some hack writing a six-hundred-word column on the subject!

Also, one reason to ask Cecil a question was that, not only would you get an answer, but some scatilogical humor, too. How often does a Google search entertain someone?


In fairness, I haven't (until today) read a Dope column since The Great Cunt Flap¹ early this year, so it's possible that Ed has been putting more effort into it than it seems. But I suspect he's too taken with his present Internet Mogul gig to spend much time on the column.

_____
1. I waive copyright to this phrase. You're all free to steal it.

[severe delays]

Sure, there are probably topics to write about. But from Ed's point of view why waste time researching them when there are easier options? There's no financial gain to be had and so long as those who still read the column will accept the pap being pumped out then there's no motivation to do better.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by BJMoose

How often does a Google search entertain someone?

Whenever it returns a link to a Yahoo! Answers thread.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by severe delays

Sure, there are probably topics to write about. But from Ed's point of view why waste time researching them when there are easier options? There's no financial gain to be had and so long as those who still read the column will accept the pap being pumped out then there's no motivation to do better.

My understanding is that the SD column is syndicated throughout the US and parts of Canada, so there is (one assumes) some financial gain there. I can sort of see a purpose for it as part of the "something light to read over breakfast or in the staffroom" element of a major daily newspaper, but otherwise, yeah, I think the concept has pretty much been replaced with Google, Wikipedia, and- ironically- the SDMB itself.

[BJMoose]

This is old anecdotage, but I think the Dope never ran in more than a handful of newspapers, typically of the "alternative" variety. Certainly, "major dailies" would have shied away from the old Cecil Adams.

It just occured to me that I might find the answer over at The Other Place. Yup. They currently claim fifteen papers, including CR. (In the first paragraph we find, "Alternative papers are generally free weekly free tabloids with . . ." Looks like they need a new editor!)

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by Hunter Hawk

I occasionally find myself wondering what Zotti actually does for a living. I don't know how much time his SD "editing" duties would take up, for example, and I can't imagine that the column would be some massive source of income. A drive-by search of the Chicago Reader web site reveals no useful information.

So what does the guy do for eight hours a day?

This is a really good question. Anyone know?

[elmwood]

There once was a time when I'd visit a new city, pick up one of the alternative freesheets, and find the Straight Dope column somewhere among the pages. In the past 10 years or so, I don't think I've seen the Straight Dope anywhere in an alternative newspaper. What papers carry it? Probably The Reader and the few other Creative Loafing papers, but what else? It's not in the Village Voice media papers, Cleveland Scene, Orlando Weekly, Austin Chronicle or Buffalo Artvoice. Meanwhile, other columns that are staples of the alternative press, like News of the Weird and Savage Love, are widely carried.

I think Ed's/Cecil's torch has been passed to Gustavo Arellano of Ask a Mexican! fame. Arellano writes about a far more specialized subject, but it's in the spirit of the SD: readers pose questions that seem to defy an answer through traditional research, with a response that's intelligent and thorough, yet cocky. I would bet if any of the questions posed to Ask a Mexican! were posted on the SDMB, the response would be a few pages of flames and the usual contrarian observations; e.g. "I've never seen a Mexican that has a mustache" or "All the Mexicans I know hate oom-pah accordion music."

As far as what Zotti really does for a day job, years ago I found an article he wrote in an urban planning journal. Go figure. My guess is writing of some sort, like ghost writing. He is a good writer.

[brownie55]

The Washington City Paper here (DC) still publishes the SD.

[Veb]

I don't know but I always assumed Ed did a fair amount of freelance writing. Again, pure speculation, no solid information, insider or otherwise so take that for exactly what it's worth: nuthin'. I don't know the first thing about the finances of the Straight Dope but my impression was that it wouldn't have provided a living even at its height of syndication.

[Martini Enfield]

Newspaper columns are usually written by a salaried member of staff who gets an additional payment for writing the column. It's a useful and sometimes significant extra on top of their regular paycheque, but not (usually) enough to live on by itself.

It's only the Really Well Known columnists who get enough from a weekly column/blog to pretty much make that all they do (Dave Barry, for example, when he was an active columnist), but that's largely because of name recognition. When anyone could be the Dread Pirate Cecil Adams, there's not likely to be as much money coming the writer's way regardless of whether it's appearing in one paper or 100 papers, because the name on the column is Cecil Adams, not John Smith, Ed Zotti, or The Right Honourable Count de Saint-Germaine.

Most of the well-known columnists (Barry, O'Rourke, Bryson, Clarkson, et al) usually also write books, the odd feature article (or, in Mr. Clarkson's case, host an incredibly popular TV show), and things like that to bring in a regular income, too.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by TVeblen

I don't know but I always assumed Ed did a fair amount of freelance writing. Again, pure speculation, no solid information, insider or otherwise so take that for exactly what it's worth: nuthin'. I don't know the first thing about the finances of the Straight Dope but my impression was that it wouldn't have provided a living even at its height of syndication.

The writing in his "voice" as opposed to his Cecil stuff is atrocious. I've read Know-It-All (Ed's attempt at a kiddie-friendly Cecil*) and a chapter or two of Barn House and it's....turgid.



*And the asshole totally blew his Cecil cover at that point. He didn't come up with new questions, he just mined books 3 and 4? (or 2 and 3) for kiddie-friendly questions and dumbed down the answers. If Cecil was real, Ed plagiarized to a degree that's mind-boggling.

[Miss Havisham]

Turgid. Good word.

Ed is too childish to be a writer. He is in over his head. He lacks wisdom. Undereducated. No people skills.

[nonny too]

Originally Posted by The Futility of Nihilism

To be honest, the Straight Dope column stopped being interesting to me years ago. I think the reason is that Ed himself burned out on it years ago but refuses to give it up. I would think that the new owners would have gotten themselves a new "Cecil Adams" by now, but I guess the whole SD column (and the MB along with it) is very low on their priorities.

Does anyone find the whole Cecil Adams thing the least bit amusing or entertaining now? Maybe it was cutting edge in 1973, but it's pretty cringe-worthy now. It's not even entertaining in the same kind of "zomg that was really awful" way that 70s clothing and sit-coms are.

[Wolf Larsen]

I don't know if business sense is congenital or learned, but whichever it is, the
people at the Durp haven't got any. This lack of business acumen has been driving
me nuts for as long as I have been lurking there.

For instance, one business rule is "When the ducks quack, feed them".

Now people asked about custom titles over and over again. And they kept getting told
that it wasn't possible. But given that almost all of the staff there works for free, any
charge would have been profit. So charge $10 for a custom title for a year. They can
even vet the titles so that "Cunt Stuffer Supreme" doesn't get accepted. But if someone
is willing to pay $10 for the title "Emperor Of Mars", sell it to them.
This could have been a big revenue stream and almost pure profit.

The next thing was t-shirts. With places like Cafepress, you don't
have any upfront costs and don't need to hold any inventory. People
kept asking for t-shirts. All the Durp had to do was upload some artwork
and have a link to the Cafepress page. Voila! No costs, little work and
pure profit. People even talked about doing it, but the Durp did nothing.

The final example was the lost weekend. People had a great time. Now why
do people go to message boards? To have fun. Has the Durp been fun for
the last 5 years? No! Readership is falling. But did anyone at the Durp
connect the dots and see what they could to to make it more fun? Even
when people told them how much fun it was? Did they organize anything
fun like the sock hop here? Nope, they are making sure the place is less fun.

I think the reason for the lack of business sense is that the powers that
be there look at business as being vaguely distasteful: Money grubbing is
something only conservatives would do. No proper writer would ever stoop
to doing something only for the money. So they ignore opportunities that
others would jump on.

[Martini Enfield]

You may be onto something there, Wolf, although personally I feel that the SDMB's refusal to explore alternative ways of generating income was initially due to believing their own PR (We're the SDMB! Money will naturally flock to us as iron filings flock to a magnet!) and, more recently, because no-one actually has any idea what's happening with the boards.

Remember, the entirety of Creative Loafing recently 'sold' (for want of a better term) for USD$5 million dollars, which is not a lot of money in media terms. A consortium of posters could, theoretically, come up with that sort of money.

So, since no-one knows what's happening with the boards and the SD brand (which, personally, I think has had its day- especially in an era of Google and Wikipedia) there's no incentive to put money or great amounts of effort into something that might get arbitrarily shut down one day or sold to Big Media and changed in style, tone, and focus.

[nonny too]

Has the Durp been fun for
the last 5 years? No! Readership is falling. But did anyone at the Durp
connect the dots and see what they could to to make it more fun? Even
when people told them how much fun it was? Did they organize anything
fun like the sock hop here? Nope, they are making sure the place is less fun.

I honestly think that some people still want it to be seen as a credible place to find information and serious discussion. You only have to look at the threads in GQ to realise that no-one regards it as that any more, but there seems to be a persisting delusion that the halcyon days will return and the "perfect master" and his minions will be given their due.

The place would probably be more successful if it was all MSPISM/IMHO all the time, but you'd need to get people to accept first that it isn't the home of "the smartest people on the internet" and that's not going to happen any time soon.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by nonny too

I honestly think that some people still want it to be seen as a credible place to find information and serious discussion.

Bingo. That's why I post there- the internet is full of places to talk about silly things or post cat pictures or say "FIRST!" after each post. I like having somewhere to post where the odds are pretty good there will be a number of informed, reasoned, or at least well-composed replied.

You only have to look at the threads in GQ to realise that no-one regards it as that any more, but there seems to be a persisting delusion that the halcyon days will return and the "perfect master" and his minions will be given their due.

The place would probably be more successful if it was all MSPISM/IMHO all the time, but you'd need to get people to accept first that it isn't the home of "the smartest people on the internet" and that's not going to happen any time soon.

It already is now, isn't it? I mean, 90% + of the questions in GQ could be answered by typing a few keywords into Google or Wikipedia, and it is frankly embarrassing that there are (apparently) seriously-asked threads like "What do these British words mean?"

If I posted a "What do these American words mean?" thread, then I'd either be labelled a retard or told to go and look it up on Google (or, more likely, both). But I wouldn't post a thread like that anyway because I'd look the words up on Google or Dictionary.com like most other sensible people.

I think a greater emphasis on GQ (where people can "Debate" the Big Issues), IMHO/MPSIMS, and a return to Classic Pit (with no "Approved Words" lists or any of that bollocks) would be a sensible approach, at least in the short term. Especially because, as you say, the SDMB isn't home to the smartest people on the 'net anymore, even if it ever was.

[nonny too]

I really don't understand the reluctance of the SDMB membership to let the whole Cecil thing go - because I think that dumping the whole "fighting ignorance" bullshit is something I see as utterly vital to re-energising the durp.

There still seems to be this belief that what was enough in the immediate post-AOL days should still be enough to attract and maintain a vibrant membership. And yet the "smartest people on the planet" still haven't managed to get a decent server, enable basic vBulletin options like preventing posting to zombie threads, or stop blaming the advertising industry being in a slump or the newspaper industry being in a slump for the clusterfuck that the SDMB has become.

If you pull some really old threads - like from back around the time that Satan was banned - you'll find that it's still "same shit, different day" and that TPTB would rather defend an irrelevant empire by continuing to do everything that has not worked to make the durp a success over the last ten years than consider that both their vision and their implementation of it are flawed. They aren't going to let the Raj die.

And it's that arrogance which has made them irrelevant. While other messageboards were doing whatever it took to succeed, they took the "build it and they shall come approach" - an approach which worked when they were a content provider on AOL because their audience was a captive one and there was so little content out there.

There was a time when the SDMB could probably have been sold as a going concern to someone who could have made it pay - now, I wonder if they'd be able to even give it away given all the restrictions which would no doubt be imposed on using the SD name.

IMHO, it's time for an "RIP Cecil Adams" thread. Acknowledging the origins of the SDMB should not necessitate remaining trapped in 1973 forever.

[Martini Enfield]

All extremely valid and noteworthy points that I agree with you on.

Another issue is that "The Straight Dope" is no longer a widely recognised term for "The facts" or "The situation as it is"- it sounds like a marijuana legalisation campaign or something. I've certainly had some funny looks from people reading over my shoulder until I explain to them it's the name of an American newspaper Q&A column that predates the internet and Google.

Sure, the Cecil thing is a bit of harmless fun, but I agree a modernisation (perhaps with Cecil as a quirky supercomputer?) or a phase-out, as you suggest, would be a sensible course to take. Certainly, if I was in charge of the SD "brand", that's what I'd be doing.

[Ludovic]

Oh, I do think that the SDMB is home to some of the smartest people on the Internet.

Scary, isn't it?

[Mirhanda]

I agree that the term "The Straight Dope" is problematic. I have never run across that term "in the wild" at all. I don't think most people are familiar with it. I'm only familiar with it because of the website. But at this point, how could they change it? What could they change it to?

[Lungfish]

I too have never heard of the term "The Straight Dope" in the RW until I came upon the site. Yet I knew what it meant.

[Sybarite]

Originally Posted by Wolf Larsen

I don't know if business sense is congenital or learned, but whichever it is, the
people at the Durp haven't got any. This lack of business acumen has been driving
me nuts for as long as I have been lurking there.

For instance, one business rule is "When the ducks quack, feed them".

Now people asked about custom titles over and over again. And they kept getting told
that it wasn't possible. But given that almost all of the staff there works for free, any
charge would have been profit. So charge $10 for a custom title for a year. They can
even vet the titles so that "Cunt Stuffer Supreme" doesn't get accepted. But if someone
is willing to pay $10 for the title "Emperor Of Mars", sell it to them.
This could have been a big revenue stream and almost pure profit.

The next thing was t-shirts. With places like Cafepress, you don't
have any upfront costs and don't need to hold any inventory. People
kept asking for t-shirts. All the Durp had to do was upload some artwork
and have a link to the Cafepress page. Voila! No costs, little work and
pure profit. People even talked about doing it, but the Durp did nothing.

The final example was the lost weekend. People had a great time. Now why
do people go to message boards? To have fun. Has the Durp been fun for
the last 5 years? No! Readership is falling. But did anyone at the Durp
connect the dots and see what they could to to make it more fun? Even
when people told them how much fun it was? Did they organize anything
fun like the sock hop here? Nope, they are making sure the place is less fun.

I think the reason for the lack of business sense is that the powers that
be there look at business as being vaguely distasteful: Money grubbing is
something only conservatives would do. No proper writer would ever stoop
to doing something only for the money. So they ignore opportunities that
others would jump on.

I agree with every word of this. What continues to irritate me is that this is the problem, but the Powers That Be shrug off everyone's concerns with the idea that all of us malcontents are just pissed off about not being able to say "cunt" in the Pit. Grrr.

[nonny too]

Thinking about some of the resident experts in their field who used to inhabit the durp, I just checked out Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy messageboard. Looks like Phil has managed to do what the durp has not and adapt his space in the cyberworld to the needs of his audience. As I type this, there are over 500 people online over at BAUT - not bad for something which really started off as a pet project.

If TPTB at the durp really feel the need to hang on to the Cecil bullshit, then for fuck's sake someone needs to kick Ed in the ass and get "Cecil" engaging with the membership again occasionally. If you're going to create a messageboard around a persona, that persona needs to be visible at least occasionally. Even Randi - who has a somewhat higher profile than "Cecil" when it comes to fighting ignorance - hasn't totally abandoned the JREF.

[Wolf Larsen]

If TPTB at the durp really feel the need to hang on to the Cecil bullshit, then for fuck's sake someone needs to kick Ed in the ass and get "Cecil" engaging with the membership again occasionally. If you're going to create a messageboard around a persona, that persona needs to be visible at least occasionally. Even Randi - who has a somewhat higher profile than "Cecil" when it comes to fighting ignorance - hasn't totally abandoned the JREF.
Reply With Quote

Boy is this true. Properly played, "Cecil" could have been a marketeers wet dream. Have him respond on the boards often enough to be interesting, but not so often that it gets routine. Sometimes he says "hi" to a noob. Sometimes dispenses some biting humor. Sometimes tells a regular their answer on a question was well done. Sometimes answers a question. Give a special icon to people that got favorable comments by Cecil. They would have had a much higher pay-to-post rate if they did this.

[Wolf Larsen]

Remember, the entirety of Creative Loafing recently 'sold' (for want of a better term) for USD$5 million dollars, which is not a lot of money in media terms. A consortium of posters could, theoretically, come up with that sort of money.

I hope the CL saga gets turned into a business school case someday. This story has everything: An ambitious but inexperienced CEO really overpays for an asset with borrowed money. The asset is in a declining industry that will never recover. The buy happens just at a business cycle peak and then revenues decline. Profits can't cover the interest no matter what they do. The private equity firm gets really hosed. (And I'd have paid 10 bucks to watch the meeting where the principals at the PE firm explained to the investors how much money they lost on the CL deal.) The PE firm takes over and has no clue what to do with the asset.

The only people that did well on this was the original Reader owners who sold out at an amazing premium to actual worth. For them that buyout was a godsend.

[Liar]

The Reader is being sold to the Tribune Co. Announcement expected early this week.

[nonny too]

It's also kind of hard to maintain the illusion of "fighting ignorance" as your mission when you're carrying banner ads for Scientology and weight loss scams...

[nonny too]

Originally Posted by Liar

The Reader is being sold to the Tribune Co. Announcement expected early this week.

I'm pretty convinced that SDMB is such a non-existent item in the balance sheet that nobody who makes any actual business decisions even realises it exists. How many real businesses leave the running of departments they view as assets to volunteers for over ten fucking years? It seems like the durp neither makes nor loses enough money for it to be even on the radar of the real business managers - and that's probably the only reason the plug on it wasn't pulled years ago.

[SmartAleq]

Originally Posted by nonny too

It's also kind of hard to maintain the illusion of "fighting ignorance" as your mission when you're carrying banner ads for Scientology and weight loss scams...

Ouch, that's gonna leave a mark!



probably gonna itch when it dries, too!

[hajario]

The SDMB being supplanted by Wikipedia and Google has it's analogy of the printed free alternative weekly's ad revenue and craigslist. In Santa Barbara, we have The Independent. Fifteen years ago there used to be pages and pages of personal ads and now that section no longer exists. There are also far fewer ads for people selling things to other locals. Why pay for an ad in the Reader and then wait a few days for it to be distributed when you can get the same thing on craigslist for free and have results in minutes?

[Zombies!]

Originally Posted by nonny too

It's also kind of hard to maintain the illusion of "fighting ignorance" as your mission when you're carrying banner ads for Scientology and weight loss scams...

Oh, but they can't dictate what ads google ad-sense (or whatever banner company they're using now) show. That's just not their faaaaaault! It's the price of doing business in this digital age, that you have to take whatever ads they put on there, even if they run completely contrary to your stated aims...

I find that particularly interesting because I go to other websites that do have banner ads, even some not-great ones (evony banner ads, I'm looking at you) and yet the sites that host them still manage to avoid those "OBEY" and Scientology ads.

Hell, there's been one on the Durp for a few weeks now that promises a Check from the Government! if you just click on their link, and the picture is of a cheque with the words "Government of Canada" and a bady-shopped Australian flag on it.

[Steerpike]

There's a thread over there celebrating "Ten Great Years Of The SDMB", or somesuch, and what's really scary is that none of their "great moments" is less than five years old: the place hasn't been fun for as long as I can remember, and talking nostalgically about about it now is like being that boring guy at work who tells people how fuckin' stoned he used to get at parties when he was 19.

[nonny too]

Originally Posted by hajario

The SDMB being supplanted by Wikipedia and Google has it's analogy of the printed free alternative weekly's ad revenue and craigslist. In Santa Barbara, we have The Independent. Fifteen years ago there used to be pages and pages of personal ads and now that section no longer exists. There are also far fewer ads for people selling things to other locals. Why pay for an ad in the Reader and then wait a few days for it to be distributed when you can get the same thing on craigslist for free and have results in minutes?

The durp was intended to create wider readership of the columns and additional SD book sales by attracting people who were not the captive audience of the Chicago Reader. When what you're selling is no longer relevant, and you refuse to make it relevant , there comes a time when you need to simply admit that you have fucked up and stop blaming other people and circumstances.

The thing is that plenty of other messageboards manage to survive financially with little or no real problem, and plenty of other businesses have sections that are revenue neutral. It simply doesn't matter what sound business proposals are suggested by the membership, there's always some justification for why they can't be implemented by the durp - 'cos the durp is somehow "special". From my perspective, it seems like the real issue is less one of economics than people being unwilling to surrender their personal power bases.

The changes which might make the durp a viable entity in the long term would pretty much demand that most of the current admins were replaced - and I honestly believe that Jenny would rather see the SDMB euthanased than see it under the control of someone else.

Honestly, the newspapers here have adapted. I'm pretty damned sure that news.com is making more money out of the TV commercial like ads on its website than it made out of full page feature ads in its newspapers - the big name advertisers would not be using that medium if it didn't bring them results. What seems to work here is using the hard copy editions of newspapers as a gateway to the organisation's website - and the community newspapers are doing that every bit as much as the national dailies.

Again, I believe that everything which is wrong with the durp is far more about the egos of those in command than it is about economics.

[nonny too]

I find that particularly interesting because I go to other websites that do have banner ads, even some not-great ones (evony banner ads, I'm looking at you) and yet the sites that host them still manage to avoid those "OBEY" and Scientology ads.

Likewise. None of the other messageboards I visit which have Google serving their ads are showing those ones. My guess is that it's the equivalent of the undesirable timeslots in TV advertising and that places like the durp get served the cheapest ad packages based on some kind of Google algorithm which directs the high priced ads to messageboards which have a large membership and a given demographic profile.

I always get the "health emergency" text ad reminding me about free H1N1 vaccination - a Google ad I have NOT seen on high volume sites which carry megabucks ads (proving that my government spent so much money on acquiring the vaccine that they can't afford to properly advertise it so much of it will go unused).

[Wolf Larsen]

The thing is that plenty of other messageboards manage to survive financially with little or no real problem, and plenty of other businesses have sections that are revenue neutral. It simply doesn't matter what sound business proposals are suggested by the membership, there's always some justification for why they can't be implemented by the durp - 'cos the durp is somehow "special". From my perspective, it seems like the real issue is less one of economics than people being unwilling to surrender their personal power bases.

This is an excellent point. Business is change. Competent management is always worrying about how the industry and the competitive environment are changing and crafting strategy to meet it. But there don't seem to be any business people anywhere around the Durp, so the reaction to change is to put their fingers in their ears and say "la la la I can't hear you". Which works until someone with business sense not only eats your lunch, they hijack the refrigerator.

[Sybarite]

Originally Posted by Scissorjack

There's a thread over there celebrating "Ten Great Years Of The SDMB", or somesuch, and what's really scary is that none of their "great moments" is less than five years old: the place hasn't been fun for as long as I can remember, and talking nostalgically about about it now is like being that boring guy at work who tells people how fuckin' stoned he used to get at parties when he was 19.

Hey, I made sure the Great Schism of 2009 made the list! :-)

[BJMoose]

Sheesh. I go off to spend the weekend in the party house and some zombie drags my thread out of its grave.

Seriously, I'm impressed with the comments that have been made the past few days; simultaneously enlightening and saddening. Shame they can't have this sort of discussion over at the Dope.

The thing I really miss vis-a-vis GB is the sheer size of SDMB. You could count on finding a thread of interest somewhere. And esoteric topics could attract enough attention to make the thread worthwhile. Though even there it seems to be changing. A few weeks back I went over to see their take on the Obama gets the Nobel thing. The first page read like a friggin' chat room log. (I couldn't stomach any more than that.) Maybe the place got just too damn big for its own good.

Anyway. Here's hoping that their example spurs us all to do what we might to make The Giraffe Boards the greatest place on the Web.

[nonny too]

The thing I really miss vis-a-vis GB is the sheer size of SDMB.

If they moved half of the shit that shouldn't even be in GQ out of there and actually locked threads once they were "asked and answered", that forum would turn over at a glacial pace now.

There just isn't the membership base any more for the whole front page of every forum to change overnight - which in turn makes the place even less appealing to new and old members alike. I just don't think that they ever realised the extent to which the "don't let the door hit you on the way out" attitude would bite them on the ass or just how many people would walk away and find somewhere else to play.

But "we've got Cecil" isn't a drawcard any more, and they have little interest in making the place more attractive because "zomg it wouldn't be The Dope any more" if they changed the place if they let it become a fun, vibrant place and find its own new rhythm.

Shame they can't have this sort of discussion over at the Dope.

Little has been said here which hasn't been said at the durp at some stage. Allowing the discussion isn't the problem - finding the will to act on things they don't want to hear is the biggest obstacle to be overcome.

[Sybarite]

Well, having the discussion there is the problem too now, unfortunately. Don't want to get banned for doing nothing but complaining and making trouble, you know.

Plus theres the aforementioned idea that all complaining is just people who want to say "cunt."

[Martini Enfield]

Has anyone else noticed an increase of SDMB threads lately that really should have been a Google search? There's one there now about the difference between iPods and MP3 players, which could have been answered by looking up "iPod" on Wikipedia.

Admittedly, the thread has become an interesting "Benefits of various MP3 players" discussion, but even so, I can't help but wonder if people are starting the threads even though they can find the answer easily via Google/Wiki, in an effort to keep the GQ aspect of the boards going...

[SoylentPopTart]

Cunt.


There, I said it.

[The Futility of Nihilism]

Originally Posted by SoylentPopTart

Cunt.


There, I said it.

Twat was that? Sorry, taint my fault! I cunt hear you.