George R. R. Martin is a no-good, very bad writer

[stormie]

Seriously, have you read any part of any of the books?

[Jaglavak]

Mr Martin still does all his writing on an old DOS machine running Wordstar 4.0. I recognize the name and have read something from him, but it's been so long that I don't recall much about it. Which means it was neither bad enough or good enough to make much of an impression. Fantasy SF isn't really my cup of tea. Sorry about that, George.

[Paul in Qatar]

He is a good enough writer. He was lucky enough to have just the right product at the right time. Next year we will all be reading Penguin Porn and thinking the author is the next Shakespeare.

[NAF1138]

George RR Martin is a pretty solid writer. Have you read anything of his? Like, actually read it? His strong suit is character development and plot. The stuff he comes up with is insanely creative and his characters are drawn and strong and complicated real people. A Song of Ice and Fire is only one thing of his, but he's done a lot of other stuff too. But just there, the use of limited third person narration to tell historical )in world) events from different points of view where in some conceptions the same character is both a hero and a villain depending on who's viewing the events is pretty great. Jamie Lannister may be the most interesting character in modern scifi/fantasy.

Fever Dream and Armageddon Rag are both ridiculously good and seriously influential. The Wild Cards series is, conceptually, inspired (though he didn't write it all). Heck, the TV show Beauty and the Beast is pretty damn solid too as were his contributions to the new Twilight Zone.

So, if you are going to malign a guy who has written 14 novels and 8 short story collections while also contributing massively to the shared world mosaic Wild Cards collections...I'm going to need you to back that opinion up.

[JackieLikesVariety]

Penguin Porn?

NAF is right, Martin can write: even as I was deciding not to read the next book in the GoT series because it's too damn sad and violent, I was wondering what happens next.

hell of a plot, incredible world building.

I think if I had any sense it was going to come to a conclusion soon I would have kept going. but there is never any conclusion!

[Flying Squid with Goggles]

I read the first three books of Game of Thrones, and Martin's pretty good - he's got serious chops in the characterization and character development areas, which is where hacks usually fail with one-dimensional characters who don't develop despite the life-changing events around them.

I'm not going to finish the series until it's done, I just am too wary of never-ending series to invest more time in it until he finishes. But Martin can definitely write well.

[Paul in Qatar]

Ever since Tolkien, people have tried to reproduce a best-selling fairy tale. Oddly, now two authors have managed to pull it off.

[Glazer]

Martin can write. Just not very fast. Must be that old computer.

[Pere]

He had some good ideas (albeit sometimes ripped from rather obvious sources). But the actual writing, the choices of words, the construction of sentences and scenic passages and multivolume narratives, is often tedious, florid and repetitive. Words "as useless as nipples on a breastplate."

Overall, I like the show better.

[NAF1138]

In the Song of Ice and Fire I would agree with you. But that's not what all his writing is like, so I would say it's a choice that is informed by the genre he is... Parody isn't the right word but it's clearly not straight fantasy. The genre he is playing with?

That said, yeah his prose isn't the best. But that's only a small part of writing. But the florid nature of the prose is a Song of Ice and Fire specific thing he's doing.

[Pere]

I've not read anything else by him. But with that caveat, I'm skeptical of the idea that he is deliberately writing worse sentences and passages, as a subtle exercise in meta commentary on fantasy tropes.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by Pere

I've not read anything else by him. But with that caveat, I'm skeptical of the idea that he is deliberately writing worse sentences and passages, as a subtle exercise in meta commentary on fantasy tropes.

Worse no, more florid yes. His prose isn't his strong suit to begin with and I think his intentionally writing in a more florid style exaggerates the flaw.

[Clothahump]

Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar

Ever since Tolkien, people have tried to reproduce a best-selling fairy tale. Oddly, now two authors have managed to pull it off.

Tolkien, Martin, Lucas, et al. are simply writing stories that follow the archetypal model of the Hero's Journey. There is a reason that HJ stories are popular: they are a model of life. Those who develop their characters well will come up with resounding stories.

Here's a good discussion of it.

And of course, you can't beat reading (and re-reading and re-reading...) Joseph Campbell's The Hero With A Thousand Faces.

[SmartAleq]

I've read about three copies of Armageddon Rag to shreds and tatters and Fevre Dream is also a fave. I love his short stories, like Sandkings and the separate stories amalgamated into Tuf Voyaging, which is one of my favorite books of all time. If you've only read the Ice and Fire books (and I myself have not, beyond the first one, which made me nearly an Unsullied for Game of Thrones) then you really know nothing of his writing, Jon Snow.

[Qwisp]

I didn't know he wrote any other books. I never thought to look. It's been so long since I read Fire and Ice and the rest of that series, if he ever gets around to finishing the series I'll have to reread them all just to remember what's going on. I don't watch HBO and I'm pretty sure from the half season I watched that a lot of plot threads get totally overlooked. I did not read a lot of fantasy prior to his writing, and he sucked me in by killed the very character I thought the book was going to follow.

[SmartAleq]

The thing to remember is that ASOIAF is the end product of a quite long and fairly prolific career. His voice for the series is unique to that series, although parts of his style (including that willingness to kill, maim and torture his characters) have been evolving to this point all along. Overall though, the style and voice of the ASOIAF are quite stylized and quite deliberately based on British history.

I was remarking in PM to another reader that one of the tricks I love the most about Martin's writing is that he throws in these rather casual but remarkably evocative bits of back story and color in his stories that give the overwhelming impression of an insanely complicated, detailed, rich and perfectly realized world that's juuuuuuuust out of your mind's eyesight. All with just a few light strokes and words he has you believing in an entire universe that you're completely sure he has all written down somewhere in a monstrous compendium.

Read some of his stories, you'll see what I mean.

[Solfy]

Having listened to audiobooks of the whole ASOIAF series, I like his level of detail and particularly his ability to build complex characters (so,so many characters). I do feel like his editor should be more aggressive, but the chaff is still interesting and provides lots of red herrings that keep the story from being predictable.

[AuntiePam]

Originally Posted by Solfy

Having listened to audiobooks of the whole ASOIAF series, I like his level of detail and particularly his ability to build complex characters (so,so many characters). I do feel like his editor should be more aggressive, but the chaff is still interesting and provides lots of red herrings that keep the story from being predictable.

That's true. With that series, I never knew which characters to pay close attention to.

Like Theon -- who knew he'd become so important? Ned's ward, just a temporary house guest, and then he becomes a catalyst and a victim and who knows where that particular story will end.

[eleanorigby]

The man's books have narrative drive, for sure. And he does do characterization very well. Let's put it this way: his skills are sufficient for the genre in which he writes. I don't see me ever reading his GoT series ever again (if it ever ends)--unlike say Mary Stewart's Arthurian trilogy which I have read many times (and I've even reread LOTR a few times-but never the Simarillon--too dull for me), but that's a personal choice on my part. He does court intrigue amazingly well and also doesn't shove clunky bits in to cover plot holes (think eagles in LOTR). His characters are very human, indeed. He's just a wee bit addicted to violence, pain and gore for my taste. YMMV.

[Pogo]

I'm not sure I consider ASOIF a Hero's Journey story because who is the hero who is journeying? So far many would have considered that person to be Ned, Daenerys, Robb, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, or maybe Cersei.

Since the beginning, I said Daenerys and Jon are the least likely to die (knowing that Martin will kill just about anyone) and then Jon died! Is it Daenerys' journey? I think so, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

[SmartAleq]

Originally Posted by Pogo

and then Jon died!

_{'E got better!}

Seriously, though, trying to say you've read Martin because you've read ASOIAF is like trying to say you know all about Stephen King because you read the Dark Tower series. Martin's primary genre is science fiction, not epic fantasy. Heck, Fevre Dream is a freaking vampire book. There's so much more to his body of work than ASOIAF.

[Pogo]

I've read other Martin; I was responding to Clothahump's post about he (and Tolkien and Lucas) writing Hero Journeys.

I don't think of the Wildcards or Dying of the Light were Hero Journey's either. I guess the male protagonist of Dying of the Light might have been the hero, he at least developed... but I don't think he fits the Hero's Journey template for hero development.

[SmartAleq]

I know, I was just riffing of the bit I quoted--the rest was just general commentary.

And Martin does less a Hero's Journey and more a Hero's Dismantling And Descent Into The Unspeakable. Generally speaking.

[Mr. Plumbean]

He is not a great stylist but he's a great storyteller. And he's not all that BAD a stylist; he makes me wince a lot less than James Patterson and that ilk. The only real complaint I have is over-reliance on labored adverbs.

[George Kaplin]

Originally Posted by stormie

Seriously, have you read any part of any of the books?

I think he's a terrific writer. He has an enviable knack for characterisation, and his grasp of plot mechanics is second to none. His prose style is sometimes overblown and often workman-like, but always readable and occasionally exceptionally good (I'm thinking, in particular, of the Battle of the Blackwater in 'Clash of Kings' and the 'Red Wedding' in Storm of Swords). Up until season 5 he also wrote one episode of the show per season, and the episodes he wrote tended to be very well received.

[silenus]

Armageddon Rag rocks. When I had breakfast with Railroad he was kinda surprised that AR was the book I wanted signed, not A Game of Thrones.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I enjoyed that book too.

[SmartAleq]

It's really too bad AR is not better known, it's stellar. And Tuf Voyaging is looking ever more prescient in its ecological themes too. Martin is one of the authors I re-read when I'm too tired to start something new. Him and John Varley.

[RealityChuck]

Look, a bad writer couldn't have come up with "Sandkings." "Portraits of His Children," and "The Pear Shaped Man." His scripts for The New Twilight Zone were also of high quality.

ASOIAF is not my cup of tea, simply because I don't read long epics. But that's my preference, not any failing on the part of Martin.

[SmartAleq]

Looks like consensus is that the title of the OP is invalid and stormie has some more reading to do.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Wow, I remember that story "The Pear Shaped Man" really well and forgot it was by George RR Martin.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Any massively popular writer is going to bashed by people. I look forward to it.

[Qwisp]

So is the consensus that I should read AR as my next foray into the writing of Martin?

[SmartAleq]

Yes, you should. It's about as far from ASOIAF as it gets and it, literally, rocks.

[Doyle]

He could be worse. He could be Robert Jordan.

[AuntiePam]

Originally Posted by Qwisp

So is the consensus that I should read AR as my next foray into the writing of Martin?

That one or Fevre Dream, vampires on a riverboat in the late 1800's. It has the most moving description of vampire "life" that I've ever read, and I've read a lot of vampire fiction.

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by Doyle

He could be worse. He could be Robert Jordan.

I'm sure if I knew who that was, I'd be highly incensed. Instead of just high and scented.

[Clothahump]

Originally Posted by Pogo

I'm not sure I consider ASOIF a Hero's Journey story because who is the hero who is journeying? So far many would have considered that person to be Ned, Daenerys, Robb, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, or maybe Cersei.

Since the beginning, I said Daenerys and Jon are the least likely to die (knowing that Martin will kill just about anyone) and then Jon died! Is it Daenerys' journey? I think so, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

I would agree with all the characters you listed as a hero character except for Cercei. IMO, she is more of a gatekeeper, a challenge to be overcome. Perhaps at the end, she will change and turn out to be a hero in a similar fashion to Anakin Skywalker. We'll have to wait and see.

[stormie]

Originally Posted by Pere

. . . But the actual writing, the choices of words, the construction of sentences . . . is often tedious, florid and repetitive.

That's what I'm sayin'. It's painful.

There's plot, and characterization, development, the ever essential denouement . . . components of writing that make a good story. I love GoT on TV and suspect the stories omitted would be good too. But the writing, well, <<see above>>. I mean, I threw a tape of James Patterson out my window once, it hurt so bad to listen to it.

Language. Delicious, fluid language, a twist of phrase . . . those things make me so happy. Anything I try to write about the wonderfulness of usage sounds ironic.

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

I've read about three copies of Armageddon Rag to shreds and tatters and Fevre Dream is also a fave. I love his short stories, like Sandkings and the separate stories amalgamated into Tuf Voyaging, which is one of my favorite books of all time. If you've only read the Ice and Fire books ) then you really know nothing of his writing, Jon Snow.

This is good! Something new to read! Yes, the first part of the first book of the GoT saga is the only thing of his I read. One more chance will I give him (as the world awaits my judgement). Tuf Voyaging, you say? or Armageddon Rag?

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by stormie

That's what I'm sayin'. It's painful.

There's plot, and characterization, development, the ever essential denouement . . . components of writing that make a good story. I love GoT on TV and suspect the stories omitted would be good too. But the writing, well, <<see above>>. I mean, I threw a tape of James Patterson out my window once, it hurt so bad to listen to it.

Language. Delicious, fluid language, a twist of phrase . . . those things make me so happy. Anything I try to write about the wonderfulness of usage sounds ironic.

This is good! Something new to read! Yes, the first part of the first book of the GoT saga is the only thing of his I read. One more chance will I give him (as the world awaits my judgement). Tuf Voyaging, you say? or Armageddon Rag?

Armageddon Rag. Or if you like vampires Fever Dream. Or both. Fever Dream is pretty damn cool.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Pere

I've not read anything else by him

See if you can find the short story "Sandkings". It's probably his best work, short or long fiction, and shows you what he's capable of at his very, very best.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Usually even among Martin fans I can't find anyone who's read The Armageddon Rag, and here everybody seems to have read it. You're all right, Raffers. You're all right.

[SmartAleq]

I would say that Tuf Voyaging is overall the least dire book he's ever written--it is actually a collection of related short stories hung together in a framing device and the overall theme is man's relation to nature. The character of Haviland Tuf is hilarious as well, he gets all the best lines. Armageddon Rag is about the second least dire book overall, and anyone with a love for music and the sixties really owes it to themselves to track this gem down. It went out of print for a long time due to rights issues over quoted lyrics but a lovely soul put that to rights so there's an e-book available. Fevre Dream is set during the height of the steam powered riverboat era and one of the best vampire books ever written, far as I'm concerned.

There's an e-book out there of a nice sampling of short stories, called Dreamsongs, originally published as two volumes but there's a single compilation that has both books in it. All the greatest hits are there along with some of the lesser known stories and two of the Tuf stories as well. The e-book is fairly massive, runs about 10MB or so, but if you wanna dive into Martin that's a great way to go.

[silenus]

Hell, I'm pretty sure I saw the Nazgul live back in the day. But then, it could just be the drugs talking.

[SmartAleq]

Right? They're so fully realized I kept falling into it and wondering how the hell I missed them!

And it occurs to me that it's no accident that ASOIAF has that kind of epic fantasy style to it--Martin is obviously no stranger to Tolkien and is channeling that voice in the books quite a bit. That florid, "castle talk" style and convoluted sentence structure isn't really his "normal" style of writing.

[Mr. Plumbean]

The Nazgul were Led Zeppelin fronted by Jim Morrison as a whited-haired dwarf.

[Jaglavak]

Yes, I'll have what he's smoking, thank you.

[SmartAleq]

That was pretty much my impression as well.

[pravnik]

I really enjoyed his books until, midway through one, I was unexpectedly murdered.

[SmartAleq]

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

That was pretty much my impression as well.

Yeah, that was in response to Plumbean, but Jag snuck in on me. Uppiity insect!