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#1
1st October 2016, 07:36 PM
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We broke a thing...
Here's the thing:
 I'm sitting at home, I'm waiting for the roofers to show up at my house (they're late) and the clock is ticking since I have to leave to pick up my kid from school in about a half hour. I get a text from work that says 'can you come back and order a part for the compactor'. I really wanted to call and say "just send me a picture (or tell me) what broke and send me a picture of the relevant pages of the manual and I'll do it from here'. But sometimes (most times) these things take a bit of troubleshooting, so I wrote back 'what broke'. They responded with 'part of the ram'. My first instinct was to say 'is there hydraulic fluid leaking?'. Because if there is, that changes things, not only because it makes it way more difficult to fix, but also because there's a local company that we've used to replace the ram the last time we blew out one of the seals (which, by the way, makes an incredible mess), so it could wait a day. Either way, I raced to work and found that. It's a bit difficult to tell in the picture, but the part I'm holding, one third of a U shaped part (a clevis), is snapped off. Also, the bolt (with the largest hex head I've ever seen, they don't sell Allan keys that big at Home Depot*) is broken as well. Further more, the bottom part, that I'm not holding is bent as well. Our guess, the bolt snapped and the top part fell off. With all the pressure on the bottom half and half a pin holding it together, it bent that part. So, someone is in the process of trying to unscrew that part from the ram (without scratching the ram) as I'm on the phone with (the only) parts person trying to order a new one and explaining to them that I can't find the part/part # in the schematic. Turns out, that part and the ram are all (at least shipped) as one. That snapped peice of steel is now an $800 ram, plus the broken bolt, a nut and according to her various hoses and adapters that 'after 30 or 40 years, you'll never get off'. I told her I'd have to call her back. Upon closer inspection, we noticed that the clevis isn't a single pieces of bent/cast steel but rather 3 pieces welded together. If it was made like that or not, I don't know, we bought the machine used, but if someone else did it, it's held up for at least 20+ years...good enough for me. We called in our welder, who also works on hydraulics, he took a look at it and said 'no problem'. Pulled the ram, capped the hydraulics, said he can get a new bolt, strighten the other part, grind off the old slag and weld it back together. That was yesterday. He's just 'a guy', so hopefully it'll be back up and running in the next day or so. *If I had to guess, that part is probably half inch or more thick and the bolt is probably an inch or so, it's huge. Also, there was a pattern maker in the store and I asked him if he had an Allan Wrench that big, he was as surprised as I was to see one that large, but he suggested Harbor Freight. Probably doesn't matter, the edge is knurled so it can be grabbed with a channel locks and there's no rotations force on it anyways, so it shouldn't loosen over time. BTW, this is the same machine from one of my other 'I'd really like to learn to weld' threads. Granted, this part takes nearly all the (leveraged (so, more pressure)) of the ram. It's bit of a bigger deal than 'I'd like to learn to weld, so I can do small projects here and there that won't matter if they break' But still, another place it would come in kinda handy. Woulda been nice to just break out the welder and have it fixed 20 minutes later. Few more things: 1)I realize that Pattern Maker may be confusing. He owns a factory that makes the molds that other factories cast things into. I'm sure he has large tools. 2)It was almost kind of nice to have a large part to take down such a large machine. FTR, this machine has held up very well, but I always find it amusing when it (or any other large machine that we have) is totally down and out for a few days because of something very small breaking, like strange left handed screw or relay or limit switch. At least this time I could go to the people grumbling about it and say 'look at what happened when 'you' broke it, this giant piece of steel snapped'. The unwashed masses don't usually get it when it's just an electrical problem and I have to wait for a new part to come in. 3)Incidentally, I have an old picture of the baler with the door removed and you can kinda sorta see the part, if you tilt your head, squint your eyes and zoom in. The only way to describe where it is, is this: If you see the angled piece on the left side (points down), directly above it is a circular thing with a pin through it. To the right of that circular thing is another part, you can see the nut below it and the bolt head above it, that's the broken bolt. But, I was taking a picture of something else at the time, just happened to catch that. 
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#3
1st October 2016, 08:10 PM
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Five bucks says it broke as a brittle fracture across the bolt, which then took out the clevis. The reason the allen bolt broke is probably because they used a grade 8 bolt, which is made out of extremely strong but somewhat brittle steel that is prone to cracking over time. I would suggest replacing it with a grade 5 bolt if a regular machine bolt* will fit. However it would probably be smart to figure out the load on it first.
*Because for some reason it seems like all the cap screws in the world are grade 8. One o' them mysteries of life.
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#4
1st October 2016, 08:18 PM
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It must be part of their requirement not to talk to the home owner. They literally didn't say a word to me. I even walked outside a few times to see what they were up to (and have a smoke or two) and I got a few nods, but not a single word from anyone, they really kept to themselves. The most I got from anyone was when I went out, after dark, and asked them if they wanted me to turn on the outside lights and someone mumbled at me that they were almost done, it's fine. 20 minutes later, I noticed they were all gone. I was surprised they didn't even let me know. As much as I was okay with that, and I was, there was a few times when a heads up would have been nice, like when they pulled out the skylight or bathroom vent caps (both of which dumped a ton of crap into the bathrooms). Even something at the beginning like 'BTW, you might want to remove everything from your bathrooms and maybe put some towels down), but whatever, no big deal, they work super fast and, so far, the job appears to have been well done. They run a 16 man crew, start to finish, it takes them 4-5 hours. They really didn't mess around. So, on time no, but they got it done on the day they said they would get it done and since, technically, I didn't even need to be home, I suppose, technically, it didn't matter what time they got there...I just didn't know I didn't need to be around so at the moment, I was sorta annoyed that they were so late.
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#5
1st October 2016, 08:26 PM
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As for the Grade 8 bolt, I think that's what my welder said, but I could be wrong. Knowing what grade bolt to put in there is his job, not mine. Personally, I was just as happy to order an OEM one*. If it makes any difference, only the lower section of the bolt is threaded, the upper section isn't. That could be so the threads don't cut into the ram connection, but that's just speculation. *When I asked [the person who called the welder] if he knows how to work around hydraulics, they're sarcastic answer was 'yeah, but he normally just deals with hydraulics on, like, cranes and stuff'. So, I'm guessing when it comes to this 'little' bolt, he'll be okay, besides, he's been doing it for a while. I'd say, if it breaks again, I'll get the OEM bolt, but if it breaks again, it'll probably be (like it is now), tough to tell if the bolt or the clevis broke first. Either way, I'm crossing my fingers that it all works out for the best.
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#6
1st October 2016, 08:26 PM
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BTW, your chances of not breaking it again are improved if you can find a shoulder bolt where the threads don't start until after the clevis. Even if you have to cut down a longer bolt.
ETA: I think your guy will be fine. For starters, it was welded in the first place so he knows it's a weldable alloy. Secondly, it was a crappy weld on the side that broke. Even if the weld broke it should have hung in there long enough to bend that clevis tab. So your welder knows that if he grinds off all that crap and lays on a good weld it will hold up.
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#7
3rd October 2016, 07:52 PM
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The thing is fixed
Pictures (spoilered for space)
(ETA before anyone asks, I was taking pictures over his shoulder and have no idea if that's all new or if he welded the broken part back on, straightened the old part and reinforced/redid the weld that connects the clevis to the ram. It looks like he just put it back together, but I haven't looked it it very closely. I only say that because that bottom part still looks ever so slightly bent, so I'm guessing it's not 'new' material.) So, it's back up and running, 3 people (someone here, some other random person that saw the pictures, and welder) mentioned those not great 'bubble gum' welds, but as I mentioned they've clearly held for a long time. But, now that I think about it, we've had the ram out for service once, about 10 years ago, when the front seal blew (huge mess, btw). While I doubt they would have touched that specific part, who knows. Maybe they had an identical ram laying around (or ordered a new one) and just welded our end to the new one, I really don't know/remember. Even if that was the case, it still held for a long time. Next, yes, I know, it's threaded almost all the way, but if it makes any difference it is a Grade 8 bolt and to give the guy some credibility, he does work on cranes, so hopefully he knows what he's doing. We did have run into a couple of non-issues, just some things that took a few seconds to think through. First, when we put the ram back on, it needed to be extended and retracted quite a few times to get all the holes to line up, no biggie, right. So we plug it in, turn it on and go to start the motor...nuthin', nuthin' at all. Okay, think through this...thinking....the breaker is on (or at least has no reason to be off). Is there a float or switch that might be detecting something be screwed up since the machine is half taken apart? Not that I can think of, and I know the electrical on it fairly well. Thinking...headsmack...there's a door switch, duh. It won't run unless the door is closed. Easy fix, I'll just hold it down with my finger and then turn it on...then quickly stop and thoroughly think about every single part that's going to move when I do this and is any part going to tear my hand off? Nope, totally in the clear (the only thing that's going to move is the ram extending and retracting, but still, I needed to think about it). It takes us about 5 minutes to get it all lined up, we do, he treads the bolt, puts the nut on, asks me to run it through one or two cycles and declares everything good and left. 20 minutes later my employees are saying it's making horrendous noises. I go back there and, sure enough, I've never heard this one (turns out I have, just never this severe). I climb up on top and watch as it runs. It's chattering, it looks like it's binding but I don't think that's the case. Checking the hydraulic fluid, it was really low. Makes sense, I guess. When he took the ram out, it was extended, when he brought it back, it was retracted. Basically, he left with a ram full of our fluid and didn't bring it back so the first few times it ran, it sucked it all up and now it's low. It always chatters when it's low. Quick run to Autozone for some ATF and it's as smooth as ever. Homefully we'll have some nice smooth box crushing for the next few years before another problem crops up...hopefully the next problem is just a nice, easy to fix electrical problem. However, the thing does leak a ton of ATF, I replace about 2 quarts a year. I get worried about trying to tighten all the fittings on it myself because I've never messed with hydraulic fittings, if I wreck one I'll have to special order it (either from the company we order parts from or have one specifically made by a local place) and when I have, very carefully, tried tightening them, nothing seems obviously loose. None of them made me say 'yup, that's the one' and as comfortable as I am fixin' stuff, it's what I do, I don't want to remove each hose to inspect/tape/reseat it. It's probably cheaper to just add a few quarts a year to it. Although, to be honest, if the motor were to die or the reservoir were to spring a leak, I wouldn't give a second thought to replacing it. It's been a while, I should probably take another crack at carefully tightening all the fittings. I mean, there's no reason why I can't do this (I am this Lizard King after all), I just get more worried about breaking something and having it out of commission for a few days while a new part comes in. Also, I suppose it's might not be a fitting, but rather a crimp. New thought, I'll go clean the shit out of all the hoses and fittings and manifolds and everything and then just keep a close eye on it for the next few days. Part of the reason I've never been able to locate the leak is because the fluid is just everywhere. All that tells me is that it's probably coming from up high, but that's about it. Some soap and water and maybe some degreaser should clean them up....glad I talked that through with someone. I have some other projects, but my next big project involves me being outside and away from my crew for a few hours so cleaning these hoses may be on the docket for tomorrow.
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#8
3rd October 2016, 09:47 PM
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Decent welds, looks like 7018 with plenty of amps. Two quarts a year isn't outrageous for something that gets used every day. That's within normal-ish range for a shaft seal and doesn't necessarily signify a problem as long as it's holding steady.
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#9
4th October 2016, 03:46 AM
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The shaft seal is holding just fine, it's all the lines that are a big leaky mess. The ram is dry as a can be. In fact one of my employees, that was helping pin down the noise, wanted to grease it. He didn't understand that spraying a bunch of WD-40 on the ram wasn't going to do anything (at least not in this case)....he also thought that the axle grease I pumped into some fittings was the same as hydraulic oil.
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#10
4th October 2016, 07:45 PM
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Well, didn't get to the compactor, but I did have time to do the ground wire. Honestly, I thought I could knock this out in an hour (even having to reteach myself how to bend conduit after not having done it in probably 10+ years). Ended up taking me closer to 6 hours. According to the NEC, I need 6 AWG wire but my electrician friend said he'd be more comfortable if I used 4. That shit was a PITA to work with. Plus, it was only 8 start with.
I think I spent the most time trying to get that wire through that elbow. That was a royal PITA (the one next to (but not attached to) the meter).
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#11
4th October 2016, 08:03 PM
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Also in that building, there's a 3 phase shut off. It's grounded to the panel (from another building) that it originates from. The Grounding and Bonding section of the NEC is rather complex. What I'm trying to figure out is if I should bond them. I asked my electrician friend and he said that there's a ground wire in them (he pulled the wires recently when they broke under ground). I suggested that since they broke once, they could break a again, what if only the ground wire breaks? Now, they're probably, technically, bonded via the equipment they're both powering, but that's neither here nor there. And, in fact, I believe it's specifically disallowed to rely on bonding in such a way that should something be removed, the bond will be broken. It should be noted that the 3 phase 'disconnect', as I said, comes from a 'separate building' and the panel I was working on is not a sub panel. It's has it's own meter and it's own drop from the pole. None of my other disconnects have their own, independent grounds, but this being in a separate building, makes it a bit different in the eyes of the NEC.
ISTM, I could, should I want to, bond them to the two rods, but that would be a PITA. What I'd like to do is take that left over #6, run it over to the panel I was working on and bond it to that. Possibly to one of those Intersystem Grounding Connectors (but I have to re-read the NEC to see if that's legal or if those are just for small things like phones/cable/alarm systems etc). I also have to re-read the NEC and decide if it's required, decide it I need to and figure out how easy it's going to be. Luckily, they're both on the same wall of a (very crowded) building, so that'll at leat make that part of it a little easier. OTOH, I'd hate to create some kind of weird backfeed or ground loop. Power backfeeding through a motor isn't a pretty sight. ETA, most likely totally irrelevant, but just to put it out there, we have grounded B phase power for 3 phase in Wisconsin. If it makes any kind of difference (and it shouldn't), one phase of the 3 phase is already tied to the ground. Off to read the NEC for the 100th time.
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#12
4th October 2016, 08:54 PM
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The grounded center tap should actually be connected to the neutral. However it will be connected to ground by the power company somewhere not too far away. Ground loops are generally in the milliamp range and are usually only a problem with instrumentation or corrosion.
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#13
4th October 2016, 09:21 PM
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Now, from that box (amongst other things) 4 wires (again, off the top of my head (ground, A/B/C phase)) run through the main building, exit it, dive underground, pop back up about 15 feet later and enter the other building, the one I was just working on. In that building there's a disconnect. What I want to decide is, as long as I'm doing all this, if I should bond that disconnect to the breaker box. If it were just two separate services, say regular 100amp service and 3 phase service, they would get bonded, but this is a bit of a different situation. I've got to do some poking around both in the NEC and in box itself. (FTR, I'm not asking anyone to find any cites for me, just thinking 'outloud' here...unless someone knows for sure)
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#14
4th October 2016, 10:17 PM
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In the case of a mixed 1 phase / 3 phase system, a substantial single phase draw can unbalance the three phase delta and lead to substantial ground currents. Which could lead to ground loop currents much larger than milliamps. In that case I'd say as long as the boxes are separately grounded I would leave well enough alone.
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#15
11th October 2016, 06:37 PM
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Getting back to the compacter leak. I finally got around to cleaning it and tracking down the leaks, at least some of them.
Dirty:
Clean(er):
After giving it a nice through cleaning, (at least some of) the leaks revealed themselves on the first run, which was surprising, considering how much this machine loses, about about 2 quarts a year, we figured it would be, at least, a few days before we'd see anything: Here's the first one:
The second one, I don't have a picture of, however, on this picture:
You can see the hose that loops down then goes over the top, the one that passes over the GPI sticker. In one of the 'dirty' pictures it has a drop of oil hanging off of it. Where that hose makes the connection you can see, there's a small amount of oil coming out between the crimp fitting and the nut. Now, the hose with the leak coming through between the crimp and the nut, that needs just needs to be replaced, so that's no big deal. Even with my non-knowledge of hydraulics, it should be fairly straight forward. Also, where it goes up and over the top, there's a nice gouge in it (and, no, it's not leaking from there), since each time the ram moves, it rubs back and forth. One option, if I replace the hose is to, well, ignore it. It's held on this long, another hose of similar wall thickness will hopefully hold on just as long. The other option is to find something to put there so it doesn't rub, whether it gets replaced or not (it's a very small leak as far as I can tell). While I'm sure I could have something welded on up there to make a smoother transition, even a piece of cardboard should keep it from getting gouged. That bigger leak, that's the problem. I did try tightening it, but I could only turn it a few degrees before the hose it's connected to hits some other hoses. I know, I know, I should hold back on those ones, but then, they'll be looser. (A: based on the parts list, that's the same coupling you see on the other two connections below it, IOW, it's not just a swivel fitting, it's a threaded coupling B: for refrence in the other pictures, that connection is the hose coming up between the two hoses on the black 'manifold') There's teflon tape wrapped around it so technically there shouldn't be an o-ring at the bottom since, again, technically, you only need one or the other. I'm somewhat considering unscrewing all that, retaping it and putting it back together, if there is an o-ring, I really have no idea if that's just something that can be picked up at Home Depot or not, this is far from my area of expertise. OTOH, now that I can see that it's just leaking through a couple of fittings, it may be best to just leave them alone and top off the tank once or twice a year rather than open up a can of worms and possibly get in over my head.
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#16
12th October 2016, 12:01 AM
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The preferred cure for a rubbing hose is to rig it so it doesn't rub. Something like a light bungee cord or couple zip ties. If that won't work, the traditional fix is to cut a section out of the old hose and tie wrap it on over that spot. Then in 20 years when it gets close to wearing through, scoot it over a little and get another 20 years out of it. A pressure hose with rub marks on it is hazardous.
The leaking fitting with the teflon tape appears to be a collar on a flare fitting. If that's what it is, it seals on the flare so it doesn't need an O ring or teflon tape. The fact that there is some on there anyway tells you one of two things. Either they put the tape on to lube the crappy rough threads in that casting, or they tried to fix a leak. Sometimes these things are an easy fix, sometimes it's a losing battle. Depending on how hard you have to fight that hose to get it lined up, it may just be off center a little. If it really only leaks a couple quarts a year I'd say make sure it's snugged up and leave well enough alone. If it's loose you should be able to turn that collar while holding back on the hose fitting.
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#17
12th October 2016, 04:14 AM
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But, I'm happier now knowing where the fluid it coming from. I'd rather see it coming from a fitting than, say, a pin hole (or multiple pin hole) leaks in a hose, rust spots in the, the pump, the motor, one of the valves/manifolds etc. I'm sort of okay with it just being a fitting and moreso, knowing where it is. If it does start pouring out one day, at least I know where to start. Oh, and I'm sure everyone will be glad to know...that smiley face, someone drew that on as I was cleaning and he redid it about 10 seconds after I said I was done. Also, funnily, I very carefully went around that 'schematics' thing you see on there in marker. In fact the degreaser was taking the marker off even just running over it. I actually know what it's for, I remember referring to it once when swapping out a switch years ago. But then when I opened up the box I said 'wth someone wrote B for blue and B for black' and off it went, I have the 'actual' electrical schematics. I'm assuming someone just quickly scribbled that down as they swapped out the same switch the time before that.
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#18
13th October 2016, 05:55 PM
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You know what really grinds my gears...
Fucking Johnstone Supply.
Not like just today either, but anytime I walk in whoever is behind the counter yells over to me as I walk in the door 'what company are you with?'. I tell them, they go back to what they're doing. I never really gave it much thought, I mean, I know they only do B2B, so whatever. So does Grainger, they just don't yell at you when you walk in. A few years back I was talking to someone and I mentioned that I was on my way to Johnstone to pick something up and he said he won't go there because of that, I told him it didn't bug me that much. I have an account and as long as I go in knowing what I need, they're (usually) way cheaper than Grainger. Cheaper like a $100 part at Grainger might be $60 there. So, anyways, I get to work today to find our HVAC guy doing something. Apperently one of our coolers was warm or something (odd that they didn't wait for me to come in, but that's another story). He finishes up, gives us the bill and says he put 13# in it for $210. I'm like, well hell, I'm pretty sure I can get an entire 25# cylinder for about that. Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that his labor would have magically cost more if he used our refrigerant, but it's always convenient when we have it on hand. It save the 'I have to go and get it, you know I can't carry every kind' or 'It's 6 on Friday, you're going to be warm until Monday morning' problems. I call up Johnstone, all I said was 'I'm looking for a price on something', without missing a beat, like he does it all day long, he barked back 'we only deal with contractors, we don't sell to just anyone'. I just nicely said 'I have an account with you and I've been buying from you for years, but if you're going to act like that, I'll just get it from Grainger' and hung up. TBH, I sorta kinda hoped he'd grab my number/name from his Caller ID, see that I do, in fact, have an account and do buy stuff and call me back. He didn't. I called another Johnstone, they couldn't find my account even though I kept assuring them I have one (I'm wondering if my accounts are specific to each store), but just as I was about to say 'well, pretend like I do have one or lets assume I set one up..how much is a tank of Nu-22b', he gave me the price. It was so far below Grainger's price that I almost wondered if he was quoting me on the wrong item, but I don't think he was, I think they're just that cheap. For anyone that cares, Johnstone was $193, Grainger was $265. (So Johnstone is 27% less (or $72 or almost $3 a pound), it's worth it to put up with some assholes for 5 minutes). Anyways, wondering if it's just me, I Googled them, it seems many of their stores have their own Yelp and/or Facebook pages and they all have the same reviews. People walking in and getting barked at, rude counter staff, unhelpful employees. Don't get me wrong, I understand that they don't sell to random people off the street (and that can be good, they don't want to undercut the contractors), but they really don't have to be assholes just answering the phone or yell at you when you walk in. [/rant] So, what to fix next.... I have a very small reach in freezer that drips condensation on to the floor. I need to caulk the inside of the box, hopefully without emptying it and leaving it warm overnight. I do want to check to make sure the drain isn't clogged, but my plan is to unplug it, caulk around the edge, put a fan on it for an hour or two to at least somewhat cure the caulk, then plug it back in and hope for the best. IIRC, the caulk I picked up does say it can be applied in cold weather, but I still want to give it the best chance I can. Also, I'd prefer if the cooler didn't reek of caulk in the morning. Also, my lawnmower went from starting super easy, like I could start it on a half a pull to...not so much. Now it takes three or four pulls with the first few doing nothing at all (Regarding the engine, it still spins when I pull it, just no noise). I'll start with the easy stuff like swapping out the spark plug (don't remember if I did that in the last year), checking for spark, cleaning the air filter etc. I know it has fresh gas. After that, I'll have to tear it down a bit more and see if the carb needs a cleaning or any of the fuel lines are dirty or cracked. Hopefully the $4 spark plug does the trick. It's been working flawlessly for 10+ years. Oh...and I was recently informed that on one of our work vehicles 'sometimes' the radio doesn't turn off when you get it (it's supposed to stay on until the door is opened). I haven't looked into that too much yet other than realizing that I can't for the life of me find the little button that knows when the door is open or closed, which I suspect/hope is the issue and told my employees that when that happens, open and close the door again to turn it off so you don't have a dead battery in the morning. If it just thinks the door hasn't been opened, it'll probably shut off on it's own after a set amount of time, but if it's a computer or radio or other electronic issue, who knows. So glad I really like fixing stuff.
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#20
14th October 2016, 03:43 AM
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| clevis and nuthead |
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