Department of Education?

[Pere]

The Trump thread isn't the best place for an involved exchange on the proper role of the US federal Department of Education, so if there's to be one, maybe it could be here. I'll get the ball rolling with a question for @Clothahump

Originally Posted by Clothahump

Education is the province of the states. The Federal Government has one minuscule role in it, and that is to ensure that education is made available to all students equally. We damn sure don't need a Department of Education to do that.

At what point in American history would you say that education was equally available to all?

[The Great Unwashed]

You forgot to drop your mic.

[Zeener Diode]

I'm all for eliminating three cabinet posts that are wholly unnecessary: Dept of Education, Department of Health and Human Resources, and... and... um...



oops.

[Anacanapuna]

Well, if the DOE was to local school districts what the USDA is to farmers, then I'd say it's indispensable. But I have to tell you, this redneck liberal hillbilly country boy with a good deal of book learnin' sees no fucking value whatsoever in slappin' one-size-fitzall "solutions" on purely localized problems. The U.S. Department of Education has done fuck-all for the local school district, and if Hotpants DeVos ends up totally wrecking the USDOE, it won't be seen as a tragedy out here in the sagebrush and river valleys.

Ah'm just sayin'.

[Glazer]

Your local school district is relatively affluent. There are schools in South West Atlanta that would not stay open without the DOE footing most of the bill. I can understand opposition to mandatory curriculum. But DOE does a lot of vital functions long before the drive to standardize began. Get rid of the DOE and kiss girl's sports goodbye. Special ed? I hope you're rich.

[eleanorigby]

I am not well-versed in the DoE, but surely we have it to thank for the GI Bill, the desegregation of our schools (don't insult us all by trying to say that the South would have desegregated on its own)* and and Title IX, which has changed the lives of so many American girls and others who need special ed, and the rise in math and science education in the 1960s to counter the Cold War and foster the Space Race.
Finally, it is the Federal Gment, if not the actual DoE, which enabled via legislation the land-grant universities, and at the other end of the spectrum, let's not forget Head Start, which WORKS to improve the reading and math abilities of disadvantaged children all over the country.



So, no, I can't agree that the DoE should be abolished or that it wouldn't be missed. It's infrastructure hides in plain sight--ALL of us have benefitted from the government support of public education. Or do you want to return to the days of Dickens when illiteracy was the norm for the working poor? I make no claims that the DoE is perfect or that our American system of education is even viable, much less excellent, however, things would be so much worse w/o it.

IMO, one of the problems is that for some reason, Americans tend to think we can get something for nothing and we refuse to learn from other countries. Investing in people is never foolhardy; our democracy depends on a well-educated populace (to quote Thomas Jefferson). We do not have that YET. And while I am leery (and weary) of just throwing money at educational problems, the answer is not to dismantle it. I do think that in IL at least, we need to find a different way to fund schools than property taxes. We may have "desegregated" the schools officially, but segregation is alive and well via socio-economic status around here.
And there is this: UNLIKE many Western countries (or other countries in general) the American educational system IS highly decentralized and most control is at the state and local levels. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we have used schools due to their centrality in community lives as stand-ins for other things. In many ways, it makes sense: to get kids checked for sight and hearing, it's best to screen them via school: cheap and effective.

But learning is inextricably bound to other human needs, such as safety, FOOD, hygiene and health. Many, many children are not well fed or even fed at home, do not have access to healthcare, do not have access to any other safe place. That is tragic and our national shame, but it's also one reason our schools can't focus solely on education. Instead of supporting poor families and communities, we sought (in more charitable times) to "send aid" via the schools. (when we weren't wasting money building new schools or letting school buildings fall into disrepair by voting down tax levies etc).


ETA PS: The whole NO national curriculum thing has me confused. I thought that was pushed by conservatives ie Common Core (which is horrible). I'm fine with no national or centralized curriculum. i'd like to see fewer standardized test and smaller class sizes. I'd also like to see a more robust method to get rid of bad teachers (I had a few-they exist) but also higher salaries to attract more talent. I'd also like to see more financial support for the nuts and bolts of well-rounded schooling. Art teachers (bring them back to ALL schools-they're needed) should get more than $1/student for supplies. Ditto music teachers. And bring back Home Ec--it's a life skill that is sorely needed. I could go on and on.

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by Anacanapuna

Ah'm just sayin'.

If we let Kansas mouth breathers teach creationism as science, we're done for. Fuck the locals, this is one area where there can be no compromise. Otherwise we'll start teaching science classes in church and let the feathers fly.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

If we let Kansas mouth breathers teach creationism as science, we're done for. Fuck the locals, this is one area where there can be no compromise. Otherwise we'll start teaching science classes in church and let the feathers fly.

Related tangent: I think churches and places of worship should lose tax exempt status. I actually don't know if parochial schools pay taxes; they should, if they don't.

[Random Precision]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

Related tangent: I think churches and places of worship should lose tax exempt status. I actually don't know if parochial schools pay taxes; they should, if they don't.

On tangent - Especially since Trump has stated that wants to repeal the Johnson Rule which prohibits tax exempt charities (i.e. churches) from advocating for a political party or candidate. If they want to play politics, they can damned well stop taking a free ride on the rest of us. I'm looking at you Mega Church / tax shelter!

[Simple Dog]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

Related tangent: I think churches and places of worship should lose tax exempt status.

Regarding what tax? Taxing their income would be baldly unconstitutional unless it applied across the board to pretty much every other nonprofit group.

[Glazer]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

IMO, one of the problems is that for some reason, Americans tend to think we can get something for nothing.

I don't think it's so much that we think we can get something for nothing. More that we're afraid that someone else will at our expense.

[Clothahump]

Originally Posted by Pere

The Trump thread isn't the best place for an involved exchange on the proper role of the US federal Department of Education, so if there's to be one, maybe it could be here. I'll get the ball rolling with a question for @Clothahump

At what point in American history would you say that education was equally available to all?

With the passage of the 14th Amendment. Enforcement of the 14th is the only place where the federal government should be involved: making sure that students are granted equal access. When one looks at such things as Central High School in Little Rock in 1957, that was the proper place for the federal government to intervene and take action. There is no other place for the fed in what is otherwise a state responsibility.

[Rat Diva]

Originally Posted by Simple Dog

Regarding what tax? Taxing their income would be baldly unconstitutional unless it applied across the board to pretty much every other nonprofit group.

Property taxes. Houses of worship and associated land can be assessed at hundreds of thousands of dollars around here, which would be a sweet chunk of change for local school districts if they had to pay property taxes on them. It wouldn't surprise me if cathedrals and the huge churches they have in some places ran into the millions.

[Solfy]

I feel like I'm in the minority in being for common core / federal standards for education. With an increasingly mobile populace, it's in a student's best interest to be able to get the same educational content in Georgia as they do when their parent's job relocates the family to Massachusetts. There's no reason that a student in North Dakota shouldn't be educated to the same standards as a student in Texas.

Exactly how that should be implemented is a fine kettle of fish.

[Inner Stickler]

I agree with you. When everyone is using the same benchmarks, deviations from the norm are more easily spotted.

[hatesfreedom]

Originally Posted by Solfy

I feel like I'm in the minority in being for common core / federal standards for education. With an increasingly mobile populace, it's in a student's best interest to be able to get the same educational content in Georgia as they do when their parent's job relocates the family to Massachusetts. There's no reason that a student in North Dakota shouldn't be educated to the same standards as a student in Texas.

Exactly how that should be implemented is a fine kettle of fish.

Nah I agree with yah. It's nice to think we can travel back into a past that we don't remember correctly anymore, but that's just things foolish men dream of.

Perhaps a less heavy hand, since standardized testing isn't very popular. But I'd like to leave that up to someone in the education career track. Which makes sense right? I mean no one would appoint a rank amateur to the position would they?

hah. I amuse myself.

[ryevermouthbitters]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

I am not well-versed in the DoE, but surely we have it to thank for the GI Bill, the desegregation of our schools (don't insult us all by trying to say that the South would have desegregated on its own)* and and Title IX, which has changed the lives of so many American girls and others who need special ed, and the rise in math and science education in the 1960s to counter the Cold War and foster the Space Race.
Finally, it is the Federal Gment, if not the actual DoE, which enabled via legislation the land-grant universities, and at the other end of the spectrum, let's not forget Head Start, which WORKS to improve the reading and math abilities of disadvantaged children all over the country.

Well see, that's the thing. Every single thing you mentioned -- no exceptions! -- either preceded the establishment of the Department of Education as a cabinet-level department and/or is not administered by that department.

Do you understand why a reasonable person might think that a whole bunch of things which existed without a cabinet-level Department of Education are not a good argument in favor of that department?

[Jaglavak]

I am in favor of standardized testing too. It's not enough to say students should be exposed to this or that subject. If they can't answer questions and solve problems in that subject then they don't know it. Standardized testing is a good way to find out if a particular school distict is doing a crappy job of preparing their students.

[Slate]

Does it really matter any more? With automation, robots and AI, it's not like there will be any jobs or careers waiting for the class of 2030. Robots will build robots to do whatever needs to be done in the physical world; software bill begat new software to control everything. If interstellar flight is ever achieved, do you think it will be a human who figures it out?

This is another problem with having a baby-boomer leader, especially the type who wants to "make America great again" in a misguided attempt to return to some mythic Golden Age. That ship has sailed, from a port that never really existed. Der, let's dig for coal, and while we're at it, here are some leeches for your menstrual issues.

Is our government really prepared for 10 million people losing their jobs to autonomous vehicles? How many lawyers, paralegals and assistants will be needed when software can already handle wills, taxes, etc? Down the road, will anyone trust a human surgeon to perform a complicated (or simple) medical procedure?

Oh yeah, education. Umm. We should teach kids how to dig bunkers and set traps.

[Jaglavak]

Or maybe we could teach our kids how to build robots and write software.

[BJMoose]

Originally Posted by Simple Dog

Regarding what tax? Taxing their income would be baldly unconstitutional unless it applied across the board to pretty much every other nonprofit group.

There also is a basic procedural problem here. Income taxes are levied against profit, not gross income or whatever; and by definition NPOs never turn a profit. The best you could do is treat the annual change in an organization's bank balance as a profit or loss.

And there are circumstances when churches do have to pay taxes. My memory of details on this is basically zilch, but I think it comes about if a church actually sells goods or somesuch. Then they may be obliged to collect and remit sales taxes, and may be taxed for "unrelated business income". (The public radio station I worked for occasionally ran into this, too.) One good example would be when a church rents out its parsonage rather than using it to house the preacher. In that case they would be taxed on whatever profit they make off of the rental, and lose their property tax exemption for that particular tract.

[Slate]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

Or maybe we could teach our kids how to build robots and write software.

Why would they be needed to write software or build robots when you have software and robots?

[BJMoose]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

I am in favor of standardized testing too. It's not enough to say students should be exposed to this or that subject. If they can't answer questions and solve problems in that subject then they don't know it. Standardized testing is a good way to find out if a particular school distict is doing a crappy job of preparing their students.

The thing is, standardized testing was around long before DEd. Some of us will recall being subjected to the Iowa Basic Skills Test (Estab. 1935) on an annual basis through the eighth grade. I have no idea how widely that was/is used, but surely there were other standardized test programs to choose from, too.

I think my basic attitude towards federal involvement in education is similar to Puna's. Basic education has long been regarded as a local matter (thus the continued existence of a zillion school boards). Having Washington promulgate rules for everyone works as well as it does when some corporate suit at the home office dreams up rules for the field, rules that we drones in the trenches regard as bullshit because we know how our jobs actually work while the suit does not. One-size-fits-all never works.

I do see some utility in the Fed providing money and mandates for certain things that some local boards might be disinclined to do, such as Special Ed. Just be sure all mandates are funded.

[Pencil]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

I am in favor of standardized testing too. It's not enough to say students should be exposed to this or that subject. If they can't answer questions and solve problems in that subject then they don't know it. Standardized testing is a good way to find out if a particular school distict is doing a crappy job of preparing their students.

No it isn't. It's a horrible way.
It's been the bane of Western world schools for some 25 years now, so it should really be possible to see if anything good has come out of it. So far results are down in most OECD countries as compared to say the 80's. I wouldn't go as far as a saying standardized testing is the reason, but they have certainly contributed to the decline.

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by Pencil

No it isn't. It's a horrible way.

Why? Based on what? I do think that a kid from Maryland should be able to pass the same basic skills test as a kid from Nevada. Reading, writing, arithmetic, American government, and modern history. Any school that doesn't cover these basics needs to be corrected whether the locals like it or not.

[Pere]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

I do think that a kid from Maryland should be able to pass the same basic skills test as a kid from Nevada. Reading, writing, arithmetic, American government, and modern history. Any school that doesn't cover these basics needs to be corrected whether the locals like it or not.

Right. Leaving aside quibbles about exactly what the minimum ought to be, how can we even claim to aspire to equal educational opportunity for all, if there are no nationwide standards? How can schools as an institution fill their basic social function of preparation toward adulthood, if nobody can know what a "high school education" from an unfamiliar district might actually mean?

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by ryevermouthbitters

Well see, that's the thing. Every single thing you mentioned -- no exceptions! -- either preceded the establishment of the Department of Education as a cabinet-level department and/or is not administered by that department.

Desegregation, the GI Bill (for most Korean Vets) and Title IX were administered by the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, from which the Education Department was spun off. So there was a cabinet-level agency handling educational policy from 1953 and on.

The Education Department was spun off separately in 1979, but its functions had been part of government long before that. It might be argued that it be folded back, but that really doesn't change anything.

While it's fine that state have some input, the idea that a student will get a better education in one state than another is hardly conducive to an educated populace.

[Pere]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

With the passage of the 14th Amendment. Enforcement of the 14th is the only place where the federal government should be involved: making sure that students are granted equal access. When one looks at such things as Central High School in Little Rock in 1957, that was the proper place for the federal government to intervene and take action. There is no other place for the fed in what is otherwise a state responsibility.

I agree that segregation is the most fundamental inequality, then and now, between public schools, at the sub-state level. I recommend to everyone this radio program as an illustration.

[The Great Unwashed]

If I may weigh in....

I always have to bite my tongue and swallow a little vomit whenever I hear someone congratulate themselves on their own intelligence. Like their intelligence is a matter of their own good character and conscience and probity and decency.

It isn't like that, it has never been like that. If you are intelligent (most of you are) it is because you have had the good fortune to profit from an education, that in all likelihood started at your momma's breast (and stopped around the time you got someone else's breast (make appropriate changes for gender/sexuality as you see appropriate)).

You probably weren't making a great many choices in that period, and if you were they probably weren't important choices about whether you should learn to read, or which school you should attend, or whether you should be exposed to a familial culture that was itself rich in broader societal culture.

Were there books in your house? Paintings on the wall? Was there a record-player (for you young people, it was like a big MP3 player, only better)? What records were there available to play?

Did you have a yard? Did you have a bike? Were you enrolled in some club or other? Did you have friends?

Did you take vacations?

Did your parents concern themselves with your education? With your day? With your life?


ALL of those things were part of your education. Sadly, they are not universal.

If a government does not directly concern itself with the educational well-being of ALL its citizens it isn't even a government, but merely a despotic alignment of interests.

Fuck! Bottom line, give me a decent rationale for democracy that doesn't take as a given the fundamental education of its citizens and I will concede the point.

DEMOCRACY = UNIVERSAL EDUCATION

[Solfy]

I don't think anyone is arguing against nation wide compulsory education. The question is whether the federal government has any business regulating it or should it be left entirely up to states.

[The Great Unwashed]

Fuck me! You know, there's education, and there's education. <deleted a bunch of vitriolic BS>

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by ryevermouthbitters

Do you understand why a reasonable person might think that a whole bunch of things which existed without a cabinet-level Department of Education are not a good argument in favor of that department?

Why are you being nasty?
I am not about to write out a pedantic essay on the History of the Department of Education for a casual conversation among friends.

My point was and still is that the federal Gment has been involved in education for a very long time. Simply abolishing it does not solve any problems nor is it likely to save the USA money over time. Having it as a Cabinet position is not a hill I'm willing to die on, but I am certainly not in favor of getting rid of the Dept. YMMV.

History of the Department of Education

Solfy: while I dislike Common Core, I do think some kind of national curriculum or at least national standards should be agreed upon. I thought the NCLB testing was supposed to provide data to reflect areas of need and areas of strength etc, but frankly, since my kids grew out of all that testing (and NCLB is now defunct) I stopped paying attention.

[Solfy]

So do you dislike the idea of a common core, or the content of common core as implemented? I'm most familiar with the STEM end of it because of my outreach volunteer activities, and I like what I've seen.

Most objections I've heard are people complaining about the new way schools are teaching math. It seems to me that people label it as stupid because it's different from what they're used to. I actually like the methodology now that I'm familiar with it via the girls' homework.

[BJMoose]

Excuse my chuckling, but I can remember when folks bitched about the Sixties version of The New Math.

[running coach]

Originally Posted by BJMoose

Excuse my chuckling, but I can remember when folks bitched about the Sixties version of The New Math.

New Math

[Anacanapuna]

Originally Posted by Glazer

Your local school district is relatively affluent. There are schools in South West Atlanta that would not stay open without the DOE footing most of the bill. I can understand opposition to mandatory curriculum. But DOE does a lot of vital functions long before the drive to standardize began. Get rid of the DOE and kiss girl's sports goodbye. Special ed? I hope you're rich.

Ah, no, my local school district is cutting back to 4-day weeks and cutting out anything that isn't readin', ritin', and 'rithmetic. But this is not the fault of the DOE. This is the fault of the penny-pinching locals and a bunch of me-firsters who, back in 1992, voted to slowly strangle state government.

I can't speak for Mississippi ... I don't even give a shit about Mississippi ... but here in Colorado, the sooner we kick Uncle Sam out of public education, the sooner we can return to being one of the top states in the nation, public education-wise. We've forgotten how to fund our own schools, and we've paid the price for it the way a junkie pays the price for heroin addiction.

If DOE can help us keep teachers in classrooms the way USDA helps keep farmers on farms, great. But that's not what they do. They require one-size-fits-all programs, fund them for five years, and then let the funding lapse. Those are called unfunded mandates, and they're killing our public schools.

[Simple Dog]

Ah, so getting rid of the Department of Education is a form of creative destruction. Once it's gone, the penny-pinching government-strangling me-firsters will realize how wrong they've been and finally start rebuilding the local schools.

Good luck I guess.

[Anacanapuna]

Actually, although you've tried to over-simplify it into silliness, you're exactly right. A recent poll showed that nearly 80% of Coloradans believe the federal government funds schools.

The federal government does not fund schools in Colorado. Not by a long shot.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by BJMoose

Excuse my chuckling, but I can remember when folks bitched about the Sixties version of The New Math.

As a kid who was a victim of The New Math*, they were 100% right to bitch. I was able to do Venn Diagrams and convert from base 10 to base 8 to base...um...12? before I was able to do simple addition**

I was at the very tail end of The New Math and it took me until like 4th or 5th grade before I'd memorized my multiplication tables and learned whatever that thing is that teaches you that in the number 1234, the 4 is in the "Ones" position, the 3 is in the "tens" position, the 2 is in the "hundreds" position and the 1 is in the "thousands" position. This right here is the key to arithmetic and it's fundamental to any advanced math. I've never, not once, in my entire grown up life had to do venn diagrams but I use arithmetic every day.

And this is what happens when lazy-ass teachers decide that they don't actually want to work and give kid blocks to play with and venn diagrams to color in.

And as an aside, stealing money from one state to pay to another state (and note, California, Texas and New York are the biggest recipients***) they skim off 49% of the money they take in for their own use ("administrative staffing"). So of the six hundred billion that the DoE takes in, they only give a little more than three hundred and fifty billion back. Wouldn't it make sense to kill the DoE and effectively double every state's education spending.

Cite

*"Victim" being hyperbolic

**The conversion didn't actually involve math, it was lining up small wooden sticks with grooves cut in them (so you'd have a 5 block stick or an 8 block stick) and then comparing the two.

***Cite https://ed.gov/about/overview/budget/history/index.html (I used the 2014 excel table)

[The Great Unwashed]

I'd need to multiply matrices to summarise the perplexity and the sadness I feel for you if you never use Venn Diagrams.

[Pere]

Has a life without Venn diagrams any intersection with happiness?

[BJMoose]

Only on the circumference.

[Clothahump]

Originally Posted by Solfy

I feel like I'm in the minority in being for common core / federal standards for education.

Common Core is a horrible concept, and is a prime argument AGAINST federal involvement in education.

[Anacanapuna]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

Common Core is a horrible concept, and is a prime argument AGAINST federal involvement in education.

Oh, Jesus help me, I'm in agreement with this brainless dweeb!

But for a different reason. Federal standards don't work. Federal money doesn't need to be pumped into school districts and Congress has no business dictating what shall be taught in public schools.

Common Core, which is actually so simple and such a good idea that people like Clothahump can't understand it because they're not capable of critical thinking, should be offered for local school districts to adopt if they see fit. And nobody needs to know the name of the pedagogy being used. My parents didn't know the name of the teaching system used to teach me arithmetic and reading and basic English composition back in the days before there was a U.S. Department of Education -- they simply trusted the public schools to do the job, and it worked just fine.

Common Core works well for teachers who understand it and can use it to teach. It doesn't translate well into homework because parents don't understand it. They don't need to. The teaching should be done in the classroom at school. Homework should be limited to some research projects outside school hours; otherwise, if "skill and drill" time is needed, schedule extra hours of school time so the teachers who teach it can be available to tutor and mentor, if needed. And then pay those teachers a decent wage, and by decent I mean starting at around $35,000 a year in rural school districts, and commensurately higher in the wealthier urban areas.

Give autonomy back to the states and the local school districts. Use federal funds to help struggling school districts with the understanding that local taxpayers have to shoulder the burden after a prescribed interval. It works with agriculture, it can work with education.

[Chacoguy]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

Common Core is a horrible concept, and is a prime argument AGAINST federal involvement in education.

Sure, just like desegregation.

[Shmiogenes]

Common Core is a state level initiative.

[eleanorigby]

Thank you, Reality Chuck.
Solfy: Upon further reflection, I don't know enough about how CC has been implemented to say it's bad or good, so I spoke too soon upthread.

I'm confused re Puna's take on education. If I'm following this correctly, the Feds aren't involved in CO's education, but he wants the DoE dead and gone. Sounds to me like his State legislature should be the one which is dead and gone.


I was also a victim of the New Math, which, according the immortal Tom Lehrer, is the system where "it's better to understand what you're doing, rather that to get the right answer." Well, I think you should be able to get the right answer if you understand what you're doing....

TNM confused me utterly, but unlike Fenris, I was also tasked with traditional math as well: I had multiplication tables to memorize etc. Long division baffled me (and still does--how is it different than just normal division?). I liked basic algebra, but nobody has ever explained to me the purpose of making the 2 sides of any equation equal. I understand stuff like Distance=Rate x Time type stuff,--the need to calculate-- but what application just solving "an equation" has beyond the simple satisfaction of solving it eludes me. Which is not to say I don't understand that "maths" is vital to engineering, science, and economics and every day life etc.


But there is this as well: IMO, there is too much standardized testing done, and too much teaching of the test. When I was in school, there was free time built into the school week which the teacher could use in his or her own way. We were able to develop and put on skits, she read aloud to us, we learned square dancing (not part of gym, which has been eliminated in many school districts) and had outdoor ed field trips in the school yard (had a large meadow in the back). We also had recess, which young bodies need. I hate to sound like "back in my day" but I got a solid public school education and I fully support it.

[Anacanapuna]

Let me clarify:

There is a widespread misconception in Colorado that the federal gummint funds our public schools. It doesn't. People think the property taxes they pay are just a small part of local school boards' budgets. Wrong. The DOE does nothing for Colorado public schools except slap unfunded mandates on them, which Coloradans (because so many are from other states where federal funds ARE a big part of the funding for public schools) don't understand. So when the state legislature or the local school district floats an initiative to adequately fund schools, it gets voted down by stupid voters who think the federal government is funding the schools, and local taxes are just "fat" that can be trimmed.

It's like we're on this little lifeboat and we refuse to paddle to shore because we think that big ship over there is pulling us, only we're not even hooked up to the ship, it's just dumping its garbage on us. Sink the ship, we'll have to paddle for ourselves.

Abolish the DOE, we'll be better off. Mississippi won't? Fuck Mississippi.

Clear enough?

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by Anacanapuna

Mississippi won't? Fuck Mississippi.

Yeah, but Mississippi won't go away either. And in a few short years the output of their school system will be citizens with full voting rights just like you. Except they'll be hopelessly ignorant and dogmatic. Imagine a million frownyface young Clothy's marching to the polling booths. It's way way waaaaaay cheaper to deal with it now.

[Chacoguy]

We got this.