Yeetmas 4 - Day 1 - Let's "Wrap" together, OK?

[Pleonast]

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

They should all be out.

Mine was in the in box, but it looks legit.

I am not the Cop. The Cop should claim by the end of Day Two at the latest, if the Doc is still alive. Even waiting that long has risks, since it means the Cop could be Night-One-killed by chance. There are no role blockers in this game.

I am also not the Vig. The Vig should only kill someone who is assuredly scum, either as revealed by the Cop or if Town wraps the wrong half of a pair of conflicting claims. Do not take the chance of killing the Cop. It has happened before; don't be the one who does it again. Please consider that Night-killing teammates is the antithesis of team play.

Yeah, yeah, you don't want to be told how to play. But these rules make some actions very helpful and others very harmful. Play the game we're in.

[Red Skeezix]

Got my PM. Just read the rules. so there's that.

Originally Posted by Pleonast

I am also not the Vig. The Vig should only kill someone who is assuredly scum, either as revealed by the Cop or if Town wraps the wrong half of a pair of conflicting claims. Do not take the chance of killing the Cop. It has happened before; don't be the one who does it again. Please consider that Night-killing teammates is the antithesis of team play.
n.

(snipped)

I consider this to be poor advice. It's not anti-team to uncover information in the game. It's pro-scum to keep information unverifiable. The vig is better at generating reliable and actionable information than the cop. Think about it, all info that the vig reveals is revealed to all, and is without question. In this game: If a vig hits scum, then great; if a vig hits town then we know that person was town and we get an extra wrap for the next day. The opportunity for more wraps is better, as I see it since it will eliminate the need to play the counter claim game, just wrap 'em both. We become an unbeatable townie when we have an overabundance of information. I'm not saying the vig should fire completely indiscriminately, but I would rather the vig use their ability to play the game strategically and generate actionable information within the game when opportunity arises, rather than as some would suggest only focus on killing scum.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by Vote Counting Robot

Guiri (1): Bashorian Clement (7)
Kaiveran (1): Mendie Taoma (4)
Askthepizzaguy (1): Halfrize (24)
Mahaloth (0): Mahaloth (15)[15]

Here is a sample of how the vote count looks using the vote counter tool. Please check it as this is what I hope to go by.

Also, Ignore my vote on myself. I'm not in the game!

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Red Skeezix

Got my PM. Just read the rules. so there's that.

(snipped)

I consider this to be poor advice. It's not anti-team to uncover information in the game. It's pro-scum to keep information unverifiable. The vig is better at generating reliable and actionable information than the cop. Think about it, all info that the vig reveals is revealed to all, and is without question. In this game: If a vig hits scum, then great; if a vig hits town then we know that person was town and we get an extra wrap for the next day. The opportunity for more wraps is better, as I see it since it will eliminate the need to play the counter claim game, just wrap 'em both. We become an unbeatable townie when we have an overabundance of information. I'm not saying the vig should fire completely indiscriminately, but I would rather the vig use their ability to play the game strategically and generate actionable information within the game when opportunity arises, rather than as some would suggest only focus on killing scum.

I don’t think the issue is vigging Town in general, it’s vigging one of the town powers by mistake, especially the cop, which happened to me quite recently.

[Red Skeezix]

Originally Posted by guiri

I don’t think the issue is vigging Town in general, it’s vigging one of the town powers by mistake, especially the cop, which happened to me quite recently.

I mean it stinks when a vig hits a power role, but it's going to happen. It's not the end of the world, we don't need power roles to win this game. But asking the vig never to shoot except under very narrow circumstances (settling a false claim, or only if you're 100% sure their scum) is leaving information unexposed. By that same logic we should only wrap people who we are 100% sure are scum, which is nonsense. And the idea that team killing is the antithesis of team play is equally nonsense. We don't win if we don't risk team killing. We don't win if we don't generate information, and not making plays to generate more reliable information is wasting agency. So, like i said, i wouldn't shoot indiscriminately, but i would soundly ignore any advice that says don't shoot unless you are 100% certain it's scum.

[Bashorian Clement]

we we we

[Pleonast]

Originally Posted by Red Skeezix

I mean it stinks when a vig hits a power role, but it's going to happen.

It only happens when the Vig plays poorly by shooting without knowing.

Originally Posted by Red Skeezix

It's not the end of the world, we don't need power roles to win this game.

Exactly--we don't need the Vig shooting to win the game.

[Red Skeezix]

Originally Posted by Pleonast

It only happens when the Vig plays poorly by shooting without knowing.

Please explain to me how casting the deciding vote or making the most compelling argument against someone that results in their ultimate wrapping is substantively different than pulling the trigger as the vig. Because from where i sit, its seems to be the same outcome derived from the same information with the same potential consequences. And the only difference i can see is that scum get more of a say in who gets wrapped than who gets vigged.

[Pleonast]

Originally Posted by Red Skeezix

Please explain to me how casting the deciding vote or making the most compelling argument against someone that results in their ultimate wrapping is substantively different than pulling the trigger as the vig. Because from where i sit, its seems to be the same outcome derived from the same information with the same potential consequences. And the only difference i can see is that scum get more of a say in who gets wrapped than who gets vigged.

The Daily Wrap is a collective and public process by which Town can evaluate each other and Scum to solve the game. It is the game; you know, the whole "we don't need power roles to win this game". It's so much more than an alignment reveal.

The Vig kill of Townie consists of "oops, some Townie decided to kill their teammate without warning". Other than the alignment reveal, we get nothing useful.

[Kaiveran]

POSTING!

Yeah, so this is gonna be in irregularly-sized pieces as I'll basically cut things off whenever I'm afraid of it getting cut off and/or forgetting what I wanted to say.

Also be warned that A LOT of this might be rather anachronistic and/or redundant until the last few posts, because I am cognizant of only the merest shred of the current gamestate. Please be patient.

Also, here are some weird things I say. If I say other weird things not listed here that you don't understand, feel free to ask me about them.

--------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by A Poor Shepherd Boy

As a newbie we are less likely to kill you off on Day1. Take advantage of the Newbie aura whatever your alignment! That aura will not last long so enjoy. Play. Post. Whether you are Town or Scum is irrelevant. It is just more fun to play and you can learn from other players' reactions to your posts and we can try and judge you from your commentary.

Originally Posted by A Poor Shepherd Boy

(snipped: for newbies, click the blue arrow thing at the top of this quote to read the original post in full.)

Super early but I get good gut vibes from these posts here. Looks like genuine attempts to be helpful to town and get the new peeps oriented rather than just whipping out some boilerplate for easy town points. Of course, scum can also pull this off convincingly if they're on the ball from the beginning...etc. etc. that's why I said "gut vibes". It's the first page and I gotta start somewhere. Don't be that kid in class (or do, I can't tell you your business.)

Originally Posted by Swammerdami

I'm GUESSING that the Elves know who the other Elves are but don't know the Careys. Vice versally, the Careys know the Careys but not the Elves.

Is that right, Mahaloth?

Is that it? I'm cooked? Spoilers, please!

You wanna know what's really funny?

In my abortive first attempt to read and/or wall-post at this game, I thought the votes cited here were like, actual-factual votes, just obscured for comedy. And I had picked from multiple pages too, so I spent what little time I had looking all over creation for those mysterious Swammi voters. Alas, they did not exist.

Anywhy...this is just Swammi being his own wonderful weird self, as far as I can glean. FTR, I would have found a pile on for this reason alone mildly suspicious.

Originally Posted by Pleonast

Mine was in the in box, but it looks legit.

I am not the Cop. The Cop should claim by the end of Day Two at the latest, if the Doc is still alive. Even waiting that long has risks, since it means the Cop could be Night-One-killed by chance. There are no role blockers in this game.

I am also not the Vig. The Vig should only kill someone who is assuredly scum, either as revealed by the Cop or if Town wraps the wrong half of a pair of conflicting claims. Do not take the chance of killing the Cop. It has happened before; don't be the one who does it again. Please consider that Night-killing teammates is the antithesis of team play.

Yeah, yeah, you don't want to be told how to play. But these rules make some actions very helpful and others very harmful. Play the game we're in.

Advise: softclaim-y stuff in or near the opening post like this is null for Pleo, i.e they do this as either alignment, meow.

The only thing that might give me pause here is the latter half of the Vidge theorizing. I might be biased since, y'know, I am the Cop and hard-claimed right away as soon as I established there were no RBs or Strongmen or anything else that might prevent me from getting at least one result from behind protect, but from Pleo's perspective it looks like they already pathed that line through what with the "waiting till Day 2 is risky" so I'm not sure how "Vigi killing Cop" is such a salient, specific concern here. Was this an intentional bamboozle so that I would come out with it right away and reduce the number of PRs they have to hunt to two?

...I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Pleonast

Plurality vote in this game, and almost always in others.

This is an important bit of information. If a Scum player is alive at the end of the game, they've won. Staying alive is their goal. A Town player can be alive at the end of the game and still lose. It's useful for Town to stay alive, but it's not their goal. Thus, Scum players tend to try harder to stay alive than Town.

Again, not bad, but I don't feel the adversarial tone against Shepherd is warranted. Of course, this is MafiaWolf and things are gonna get heated, and he's technically spreading misinformation here, albeit a very very minor form of it. Not sure who this reflects on better or worse.

Originally Posted by Red Skeezix

Got my PM. Just read the rules. so there's that.

(snipped)

I consider this to be poor advice. It's not anti-team to uncover information in the game. It's pro-scum to keep information unverifiable. The vig is better at generating reliable and actionable information than the cop. Think about it, all info that the vig reveals is revealed to all, and is without question. In this game: If a vig hits scum, then great; if a vig hits town then we know that person was town and we get an extra wrap for the next day. The opportunity for more wraps is better, as I see it since it will eliminate the need to play the counter claim game, just wrap 'em both. We become an unbeatable townie when we have an overabundance of information. I'm not saying the vig should fire completely indiscriminately, but I would rather the vig use their ability to play the game strategically and generate actionable information within the game when opportunity arises, rather than as some would suggest only focus on killing scum.

From what I've read ahead, this post seems to be a bit controversial (to Pleo, at the very least). So I just wanna say, despite how reckless and gung-ho this might read at first blush, this is a very valid and long-standing approach on how the Vigilante should use their role. It's a very active go-getter approach, using the threat of a Vigi kill as a "Sword of Damocles" to get people to participate more, and discourage wolves from making big visible moves, lest they eat a bullet for it.

Of course, Pleo seems to advocate the opposing, more passive approach: an "extra elimination" that should only shoot players that player consensus and/or mechanical evidence strongly indicates is a wolf, and not shooting otherwise. While in this game, the multiple "wraps" are an obvious comeback mechanic which makes shooting wild and hitting town less of a deal-breaker, it still makes sense why town!Pleo would be wary of putting too much power in one player's fallible hands.

This is my first rodeo with Skeezix, so I'm unsure if the former approach is typical for them and/or their home community, but FMPOV it totally makes sense for the Vengelimination mechanic here to make that option even more attractive to them than usual.

Which one is correct? In my opinion, it's a trick question. No one approach to playing Vigilante is gonna fit all situations. It's always gonna depend on context: what other wolf-hunting tools are currently in the game, as well as how much your individual shots have the potential to make or break it.

Of course, it's totally up to the actual Vigilante what they do, as well as when, and why. I just want to give the Vigilante this advice:

• Be flexible, whatever your "default" approach. Take some time to seriously consider the current gamestate, and run the risk vs. benefit calculations on any potential shot choice.
• It's okay to be wrong – it's not okay to be wrong with no justification. You need to have at least some kind of real, positive evidence (i.e explaining what your suspect did, rather than what they could have been doing) against whoever you're killing, because you might well have to explain that case when it goes badly.
• Keep in mind the odds change as the game drags on. For example, right now with 19 players alive, you could literally pick a random name from the list and have only ~16% chance of hitting a Blue. But in a much smaller 8-9 player situation, where most of the Blues are still alive and trying to nail the last of the scum, you're chances of hitting them are [I]much higher[/I, and you're way more likely to fuck over town's chances of winning if you do. Adjust your play accordingly.

Originally Posted by TexCat

And the Doc can protect the Cop every night. So it makes sense for the Cop to claim and get protected.

I really don't like this piggyback off Pleo's post. It uses different words, but literally communicates zero additional info. Seems like "looking busy" to me.

(some more arguing about Vidge strategy and stuff)

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

we we we

The Pizzatells™ abide.

This is the first page and again, Skeez is an unfamiliar player, so I can make no judgements about BCs assessment here. I myself would not be so quick to pounce here – I am slightly biased due to the fact that I routinely do the same thing myself, especially when trying to set the strategic tenor for the game, as Skeezix seems to be doing here.

(FYI, I also do "interesting" pretty often, but usually spelled "inchresting" and in more of a jokey way, b/c usually it's clear from context what I mean.)

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

KAi checking in

Nobody messaged me about the game starting and I need to sleep

smell ya later

...much later, apparently.

[Swammerdami]

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

. . .

Super early but I get good gut vibes from these posts here. Looks like genuine attempts to be helpful to town and get the new peeps oriented rather than just whipping out some boilerplate for easy town points. Of course, scum can also pull this off convincingly if they're on the ball from the beginning...etc. etc. that's why I said "gut vibes". It's the first page and I gotta start somewhere. Don't be that kid in class (or do, I can't tell you your business.)

I'm leaning Town on Shepherd Boy also, but BEWARE. He can act very convincingly Townie when he's Scum.

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

You wanna know what's really funny?

In my abortive first attempt to read and/or wall-post at this game, I thought the votes cited here were like, actual-factual votes, just obscured for comedy. And I had picked from multiple pages too, so I spent what little time I had looking all over creation for those mysterious Swammi voters. Alas, they did not exist.

I am very sorry. I often overdo on pathetic attempts at "whimsy." In this case the "hypothetical responses" were inane, useless and confusing. And caused you to waste much time.

I will try to be much more straightforward for the rest of the Game.

[Pleonast]

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

The only thing that might give me pause here is the latter half of the Vidge theorizing. I might be biased since, y'know, I am the Cop and hard-claimed right away as soon as I established there were no RBs or Strongmen or anything else that might prevent me from getting at least one result from behind protect, but from Pleo's perspective it looks like they already pathed that line through what with the "waiting till Day 2 is risky" so I'm not sure how "Vigi killing Cop" is such a salient, specific concern here. Was this an intentional bamboozle so that I would come out with it right away and reduce the number of PRs they have to hunt to two?

We just had a game here where the Vig killed the Cop. And we have two Scum teams here, also shooting. That's a 1/18 shot and two 1/16 shots, which works out to a 17% chance of an unclaimed, unprotected Cop dying Night One. Do you consider Russian roulette good odds?

[Pleonast]

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

Again, not bad, but I don't feel the adversarial tone against Shepherd is warranted. Of course, this is MafiaWolf and things are gonna get heated, and he's technically spreading misinformation here, albeit a very very minor form of it. Not sure who this reflects on better or worse.

This comment greatly concerns me. I'm not being adversarial here, I'm being supportive! I know my though processes are unusual, but I despair that my tone comes out completely opposite my intent.

[TexCat]

Originally Posted by Pleonast

Mine was in the in box, but it looks legit.

I am not the Cop. The Cop should claim by the end of Day Two at the latest, if the Doc is still alive. Even waiting that long has risks, since it means the Cop could be Night-One-killed by chance. There are no role blockers in this game.

I am also not the Vig. The Vig should only kill someone who is assuredly scum, either as revealed by the Cop or if Town wraps the wrong half of a pair of conflicting claims. Do not take the chance of killing the Cop. It has happened before; don't be the one who does it again. Please consider that Night-killing teammates is the antithesis of team play.

Yeah, yeah, you don't want to be told how to play. But these rules make some actions very helpful and others very harmful. Play the game we're in.

And the Doc can protect the Cop every night. So it makes sense for the Cop to claim and get protected.

[A Poor Shepherd Boy]

Originally Posted by TexCat

And the Doc can protect the Cop every night. So it makes sense for the Cop to claim and get protected.

I humbly support this plan.