I need a place where I can talk rationally about Israel.

[kirin]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

Oh, you mean Israel's response to eight years of Egyptian military blockade of the Red Sea? The one that Egypt actually started? I got your "history" right here.

Beyond the manner in which the Zionists manipulated the British to win disproportionate gains at the end of the Mandate, they then proceeded to massacre and expel (ethnically cleanse) Palestinians by the hundreds of thousands in 1948. Egypt and other Arab states didn't recognize Israel's illegal borders that it created for itself, and Egypt had territorial control of the Suez and Straits of Tiran. So they closed it.

As a matter of pragmatism, I accept Israel's political legitimacy and am not interested in litigating that. But there has never been a moment in Israel's history when they haven't illegally occupied, illegally expanded/settled, or economically strangled Palestinians. It's no different now. They're illegally expanding settlements in the West Bank as we speak. They're making Gaza unlivable, which pretty much makes it clear what they aim to do with Palestinians there, which is why Egypt and other neighbors refuse to take the refugees in. It's not because Arab neighbors are indifferent; it's because they know they'll be stuck with the refugees permanently. They will never be allow by Israel to return, who will annex their new territory, just like they always have. Israel always had its design on a much bigger Israel beyond that which was in the Mandate, and they've tried to get it through sheer violence and brutality.

[Rat Diva]

@NAF1138 kirin is boxed now so you can have your thread back if you want/need it.

[Jaglavak]

Hamas leader said civilian death toll could benefit militant group in Gaza war

The military leader of Hamas has said he believes he has gained the upper hand over Israel and that the spiralling civilian death toll in Gaza would work in the militant group’s favor, according to a report by the Wall Street Journal, citing leaked messages the newspaper said it had seen.

“We have the Israelis right where we want them,” Yahya Sinwar told other Hamas leaders recently, according to one of the messages, the WSJ reported Monday. In another, Sinwar is said to have described civilian deaths as “necessary sacrifices” while citing past independence-related conflicts in countries like Algeria.

They intentionally started the war by extreme animalistic brutality and then intentionally hide behind helpless women and children and shoot to draw fire so that the bystanders will be killed, simply to make political points. Lets see the apologists paint a smiley face on that.

[Dr. Winston O'Boogie]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

Hamas leader said civilian death toll could benefit militant group in Gaza war

They intentionally started the war by extreme animalistic brutality and then intentionally hide behind helpless women and children and shoot to draw fire so that the bystanders will be killed, simply to make political points. Lets see the apologists paint a smiley face on that.

Yup - they just proved my point for me.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by Rat Diva

@NAF1138 kirin is boxed now so you can have your thread back if you want/need it.

Ha! Thanks

I don't really want to engage in a pissing contest about who did what first. Bringing up pre 1948 slaughter of Jews in the Palestinian territory or how, to my knowledge all, of the land in Israel was purchased legally. Because the conflict of years past is complicated. And the conflict at present is... Horrible. I happy some hostages were rescued but horrified that they were being hidden in private houses forcing civilians deaths in the process. None of this is great.

As a person with empathy I care a lot about this, but as a Jew living in America... A jew who considered himself to be on the extreme far left of the political spectrum to boot, I'm more concerned with what is happening at home. The seemingly daily attacks on synagogues in Canada. The calls for international violence against Jews. The passing of blacklists on social media. It's troubling.

[NAF1138]

As a hard left Jew this is what I'm hearing in hard left Jewish circles. And I genuinely don't know if I'm crazy and spending too much time in feedback loops, or if the people like the one in my link have a very real and very good point.

I do know that the way people have responded to the latest conflict fills me with a genuine existential dread. I know that in Brooklyn yesterday a prominent Jew had her home vandalized with pro Palestinian garbage, and she has been vocally critical of Israel.

I have had some of my family members in Israel go no contact with me for not being vocally pro Israel enough on social media. I have had left wing friends go no contact with me for being too pro Israel. Things sort of suck right now.

[Crafter_Man]

I've always been Team Israel. Hamas terrorists can fuck-off. Each and every one of them needs to be hunted down and eliminated.

I don't think a two-state approach will work. While the Palestinians claim to want their own country, it's not their real goal. Their only goal is the elimination of Israel.

And antisemites can fuck off.

[Sputnik]

It’s true, the world is full of bigoted asswipes who choose to hate others because of their color, orientation or nationality. Churches are bombed because their congregation is black. Synagogues are covered with Nazi hate symbols because their congregation is Jewish. LGBTQ community is the targets of bigoted hate because their right to be who they are is mistrusted. You know what, it’s a world with an endless supply of hate fueling more hate until it boils over and events like October 7th happen. Then violence brings more violence then even more violence.

And here we sit in America voicing opinions about how wrong the world is when we have a champion of the bigoted hateful part of our society trying to again become the leader of the free world.

One day maybe everyone will be able to learn that peace is far better than hate.

[Solfy]

Originally Posted by NAF1138

I have had some of my family members in Israel go no contact with me for not being vocally pro Israel enough on social media. I have had left wing friends go no contact with me for being too pro Israel. Things sort of suck right now.

I've seen this trend more than once in social media over the past five years and I find it disturbing. Something polarizing rises to prominence and people are pushed to take a side whether they want to or not. If they say, "I think this is an important topic, but I don't think I am informed enough to take a public stance," they're excoriated, sometimes by both sides. It's a double-edged purity spiral. Moderate views or nuance are unacceptable.

[thorny locust]

Originally Posted by Rat Diva

@NAF1138 kirin is boxed now so you can have your thread back if you want/need it.

Thanks. I had been very much regretting not having found this thread in its earlier incarnation; though I do have to say that it seems a lot more applicable now than when it started -- it took me quite a while to notice the earlier dates, as I at first assumed it was a response to current events.

I'm not sure I have much to add, though; other than another voice that very much wants Israel to be there, is sick at some of what Israel's currently doing, and is very worried about the resurgence of antisemitism in multiple countries. I was never under the delusion that it had gone away entirely, but I felt a lot more comfortable with it hiding under the bed than with it jumping out and leaping all over the room.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by Solfy

I've seen this trend more than once in social media over the past five years and I find it disturbing. Something polarizing rises to prominence and people are pushed to take a side whether they want to or not. If they say, "I think this is an important topic, but I don't think I am informed enough to take a public stance," they're excoriated, sometimes by both sides. It's a double-edged purity spiral. Moderate views or nuance are unacceptable.

YES!

Like, I don't really like or approve of how Israel is reacting to...anything for the last 20 years. I think they are categorically making bad choices, but also I don't live there. I didn't live through the intefadas, and I remember how angry I was post 9/11. I said things to friends that I am super thankful social media was not around to capture for posterity. Eventually I came around to being "fuck Bush and fuck the war" but that wasn't the first six months after the attack. And in many MANY ways October 7th isn't that different from 9/11 and in several ways its way more horrific. Lots less rape kidnapping and torture in 9/11.

But, the response to 9/11 was wrong and much of the response to October 7th is wrong. I should be able to say that without being called a self hating traitor. Also, Israel should exist and regular jews just walking around living life should not be getting hassled. After school jewish centers should not be getting vandalized in Philadelphia. And I should be able to say that without being told that I am weaponizing anti semitism and that anti semitism doesn't really exist and that the Palestinians are the real semites anyway. :sigh:

I'm exhausted by it all, but also I can't manage to get away from it.

[What Exit?]

The situation is very ugly and both sides of Israel vs. Hamas are looking awful right now. Both the Gazans and the Israelis need to throw off their current leadership and find people to come to the bargaining table to call a truce and work towards some sort of peace.

It isn't impossible as Ireland already proved this stuff isn't impossible.

Benjamin Netanyahu is guilty of many war crimes as are a lot of his senior staff. Hamas is guilty of so much, I can't even begin. They all need to go to prison somewhere.

16 years is far too long for anyone to serve as the leader of their country and one as evil as Netanyahu is painful to watch. This bastard is the longest serving PM in Israel history. Shit.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

The situation is very ugly and both sides of Israel vs. Hamas are looking awful right now. Both the Gazans and the Israelis need to throw off their current leadership and find people to come to the bargaining table to call a truce and work towards some sort of peace.

It isn't impossible as Ireland already proved this stuff isn't impossible.

Benjamin Netanyahu is guilty of many war crimes as are a lot of his senior staff. Hamas is guilty of so much, I can't even begin. They all need to go to prison somewhere.

16 years is far too long for anyone to serve as the leader of their country and one as evil as Netanyahu is painful to watch. This bastard is the longest serving PM in Israel history. Shit.

Yeah, it's terrible that he keeps staying in Power. With the exception of 2000-2006 he has functionally run Israel for as long as I have been paying attention. I was 12 when Rabin was assassinated. I know he hasn't been, but it really feels like it was Netanyahu ever since. And he just keeps getting more authoritarian every time he is re elected. He's like the poster child for why a parlementary system is flawed.

[The Mighty Quinn]

It's so hard to tell what's really going on in the colleges and high schools. I'm sure there's real anti-Semitism, and I'm sure there are people using accusations of anti-Semitism to shut down speech they don't disagree with. From the outside, it's impossible to judge what the ratio of one to the other is. In my limited experience, the extent to which Jewish students feel threatened tends to be directly proportional to the extent to which that student supports Israel.

I think the starting point for discussion should be:

There are about seven million Jews and seven million Arabs in Israel/Palestine. All of them should have the right to live in peace and freedom under democratically elected governments. Nobody should have to leave their homes, and nobody should be expected to live indefinitely as second-class citizens.

If someone can't agree to that and insists on a solution that involves ethnic cleansing and/or indefinitely sustained institutional discrimination, they're probably not worth talking to.

[The Mighty Quinn]

Originally Posted by Crafter_Man

I've always been Team Israel. Hamas terrorists can fuck-off. Each and every one of them needs to be hunted down and eliminated.

I don't think a two-state approach will work. While the Palestinians claim to want their own country, it's not their real goal. Their only goal is the elimination of Israel.

And antisemites can fuck off.

This is offensive and dehumanizing IMO. Nothing at all to object to in the first paragraph. But in the second paragraph it appears that you're now using "Hamas terrorists" and "the Palestinians" interchangeably.

It's important to realize that, in an important sense, Hamas themselves are a foreign power occupying Gaza. They don't depend on the support of Gazans to stay in power, they depend on the flow of cash and weapons from Iran. You are correct that, even if ethnically Palestinian, they don't care how much death and suffering their people are enduring if it plays into their long-term plan to destroy Israel.

To the extent that Palestinians do support that agenda, it's an obstacle to peace. But believing reprehensible things doesn't mean people lose their basic human rights. They are still human beings and have the capacity to change their beliefs.

The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is horribly corrupt and undemocratic, but for decades it has effectively prevented terrorists from launching missiles at Israel from their territory, demonstrating that, at the very least, many Palestinians are not in fact suicidally determined to wipe Israel off the map.

I wonder what conclusions you draw from your apparent beliefs. If you think that "the Palestinians" are implacably committed to the destruction of Israel, it would follow that Israel shouldn't try to make peace with them and should instead try to remove them from their borders entirely. Is that what you think?

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

Both the Gazans and the Israelis need to throw off their current leadership and find people to come to the bargaining table to call a truce and work towards some sort of peace.

Unfortunately, it is impossible at this point because Hamas is a cancer on Palestinian society that has been installed, funded, and supplied by enemies of Israel. Until that stops, the Palestinians will continue to be unreliable partners even if all negotiators are honest and sincere. There will always be another attack.

Israel needs to drive a wedge between the terrorists and regular folks who are just trying to get along. Deconstruct the machine. Since their neighbors will never stop, that means complete control of Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas controls the population by violence and brutality, and so Israel has to be the cops and go after them. A terrorist whacks a moderate Palestinian, that terrorist gets caught and executed. Make it so the shitbags can't take a piss without Israel knowing.

Then go to work solving the problem while setting a trap for bad guys. What do people want the world around? They want a home, they want a job, they want to choose their own path, and they want a social scene to meet hotties and get laid. Start by declaring the headscarf optional. The first asshole who abuses a girl for not wearing one goes to jail for 10 years. Open public health clinics where people can get exams, medication, and birth control. Partner with Palestinian businessmen to open social clubs, dance halls, concert halls, and theaters. Guard them from the shadows and wait for terrorists to attack. Then root out the shitbags and kill them. Organize a rebuilding program that keeps track of every bag of cement and stick of rebar. Mostly funded by uber-wealthy Arab donors but operated by Israel with boots on the ground. No more tunnels.

Open the borders and let Palestinians emigrate if they like. Then point the spotlight at every Arab nation who blocks any such thing. They claim that they don't want another Kutupalong, but emigration is controlled admission. Point out that they would be getting construction workers, accountants, bakers, shopkeepers, school teachers, all kinds of hardworking useful people. Put a torpedo through the excuses.

All this will be expensive, but still cheaper than war. When Palestinians put on a gay pride parade, then the war has been won. Of course the neighbors will never stop trying to poison the well, and so Israel will never be able to leave Gaza. That is the only path to peace. So naturally the shitbags have been cranking the propaganda machine to make that the unacceptable path. But it is the path that Israel must forge.

[The Mighty Quinn]

Originally Posted by kirin

Beyond the manner in which the Zionists manipulated the British to win disproportionate gains at the end of the Mandate, they then proceeded to massacre and expel (ethnically cleanse) Palestinians by the hundreds of thousands in 1948. Egypt and other Arab states didn't recognize Israel's illegal borders that it created for itself, and Egypt had territorial control of the Suez and Straits of Tiran. So they closed it.

As a matter of pragmatism, I accept Israel's political legitimacy and am not interested in litigating that. But there has never been a moment in Israel's history when they haven't illegally occupied, illegally expanded/settled, or economically strangled Palestinians. It's no different now. They're illegally expanding settlements in the West Bank as we speak. They're making Gaza unlivable, which pretty much makes it clear what they aim to do with Palestinians there, which is why Egypt and other neighbors refuse to take the refugees in. It's not because Arab neighbors are indifferent; it's because they know they'll be stuck with the refugees permanently. They will never be allow by Israel to return, who will annex their new territory, just like they always have. Israel always had its design on a much bigger Israel beyond that which was in the Mandate, and they've tried to get it through sheer violence and brutality.

The first few sentences here are incredibly slanted but not factually inaccurate. The point about why neighboring Arab countries don't want to take in refugees is valid. But the last sentence is straight up dehumanizing. "Israel" is not a monolithic hive mind entity which has "designs", it's a country. The fact that its government has done and continues to do evil things doesn't make the country itself existentially evil.

Moreover, it is simply factually incorrect that all Israeli governments have always endorsed a policy of territorial expansion. The implication that those which didn't were lying about their true beliefs as part of some sinister conspiracy is not only dehumanizing but specifically evokes common anti-Semitic tropes.

[The Mighty Quinn]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

Unfortunately, it is impossible at this point because Hamas is a cancer on Palestinian society that has been installed, funded, and supplied by enemies of Israel. Until that stops, the Palestinians will continue to be unreliable partners even if all negotiators are honest and sincere. There will always be another attack.

Israel needs to drive a wedge between the terrorists and regular folks who are just trying to get along. Deconstruct the machine. Since their neighbors will never stop, that means complete control of Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas controls the population by violence and brutality, and so Israel has to be the cops and go after them. A terrorist whacks a moderate Palestinian, that terrorist gets caught and executed. Make it so the shitbags can't take a piss without Israel knowing.

Then go to work solving the problem while setting a trap for bad guys. What do people want the world around? They want a home, they want a job, they want to choose their own path, and they want a social scene to meet hotties and get laid. Start by declaring the headscarf optional. The first asshole who abuses a girl for not wearing one goes to jail for 10 years. Open public health clinics where people can get exams, medication, and birth control. Partner with Palestinian businessmen to open social clubs, dance halls, concert halls, and theaters. Guard them from the shadows and wait for terrorists to attack. Then root out the shitbags and kill them. Organize a rebuilding program that keeps track of every bag of cement and stick of rebar. Mostly funded by uber-wealthy Arab donors but operated by Israel with boots on the ground. No more tunnels.

Open the borders and let Palestinians emigrate if they like. Then point the spotlight at every Arab nation who blocks any such thing. They claim that they don't want another Kutupalong, but emigration is controlled admission. Point out that they would be getting construction workers, accountants, bakers, shopkeepers, school teachers, all kinds of hardworking useful people. Put a torpedo through the excuses.

All this will be expensive, but still cheaper than war. When Palestinians put on a gay pride parade, then the war has been won. Of course the neighbors will never stop trying to poison the well, and so Israel will never be able to leave Gaza. That is the only path to peace. So naturally the shitbags have been cranking the propaganda machine to make that the unacceptable path. But it is the path that Israel must forge.

Well. After my last few posts I don't think I need to explain why this is horribly racist, so I'll just make a few brief comments.

Hamas doesn't control the West Bank, and headscarves aren't mandatory there, nor are "concert halls and theatres" forbidden.

Any country which accepted Palestinian refugees would be getting a lot of "hardworking useful people", but the majority of them would be uneducated children. Realistically, they would be a net economic drain on their host country for at least decades to come.

Israel has now been occupying much of Gaza for the last eight months, and has made NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER to open any health clinics or schools for the Palestinian population, much less "dance halls".

[Crafter_Man]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn

To the extent that Palestinians do support that agenda, it's an obstacle to peace. But believing reprehensible things doesn't mean people lose their basic human rights. They are still human beings and have the capacity to change their beliefs.

As of 12-Jun-24, two-thirds of Gazans continue to support the October 7 attack.

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Crafter_Man

As of 12-Jun-24, two-thirds of Gazans continue to support the October 7 attack.

I have a feeling expressing anything besides 100% support for Hamas in Gaza is like showing your boobs in public in Iran - people are going to notice. And word gets around.

The legitimate grievances of the Palestinians cannot be addressed until Hamas is no more. Hamas is doing what it can to f*ck up any possibility of peace.

And the Gazans claim to be happy to have Hamas hide their weapons behind their own women and children. and scurry off to Qatar when the IDF Strikes Back.

:shrugs:

Hamas wanted to provoke Israel into a major response so they could complain about how Israel was blowing up the hospitals where they hid their weapons. Well, they got what they wanted.

Regards,
Shodan

[NAF1138]

So I think two things are simultaneously true here.

1) The Israel that most people in the Jewish community outside of Israel thinks exists, hasn't existed for a very long time. I don't agree that it never existed, I think that up into the late 90s it probably did exist in some form or fashion. The Israel that currently exists is primarily a right wing theocracy ruled by fear which was not ever the intention. I wish for it's continued existence and hope it improves, and the concept of Israel being destroyed as a safe homeland for jews makes me cold with fear in the pit of my stomach. But, ultimately, I care about it in this existential way and I care about my family there and...that's it.

2) The response to the current war by people outside of Israel is really what I care most about. I think many, most? (maybe most) of the people who are claiming to be anti-Zionist are just bloodthirsty and want "the other team" to die. I don't think most of them hate Jews specifically. I think if you were able to get them to sit and think about it they would be horrified that people were GENINELY responding to their rallies as though they were calls for genocide. They have convinced themselves that no one ACTUALLY believes that and they are just pushing for liberty or something. But they are a real problem outside of Israel and they could actually directly affect me and my family and my friends. My synagogue in suburban Philadelphia, has gotten bomb threats because of this. We have nothing to do with Israel. (In fairness we also got bomb threats when Trump was claiming Jews were helping to fund armies of immigrants at the boarder. People hate Jews and will take any excuse.)

Both are true. And maybe my mistake is bringing Israel into it at all. I am anti Likud. But I am a Jew, and it is fundamentally impossible to be a Jew and not be on some level a Zionist. Anyone who says otherwise is twisting the meaning of the word.


And so I see how people respond and I think how do they not see?

"From the River to the Sea..." is a call for ethnic cleansing.

"There is only one solution..." is a call for violence, suicide bombings, and attacks on civilians most of whom WANT PEACE.

"Globalize the Intifada" is directly a call for violence against Jews outside of Israel, and again, suicide bombings and terror attacks.

Calling Jews, the single most persecuted minority group in world history, White Supremacists is racist bullshit.

Calling people who's families have lived in Israel for longer than we have accurate records, colonizers is gaslighting. Ignoring their existence is also racist.

Calling people who came to Israel as refugees from Russia, Iran, Iraq, Ethiopia, Syria, Morocco, Tunisia, etc etc etc. people who were fleeing ethnic cleansing, colonizers is minimizing generational trauma.

Comparing what is happening to Palestinians, as terrible as it is, to the Holocaust, is Holocaust denial as it makes the Holocaust seem like it was not something unprecedented in human history before or since. It was mechanized efficient human extermination.

And if a non Jew thinks that it isn't...why does impact not matter more than intent when it's Jews who are the recipients? What the hell happened to believing victims? Palestinians absolutely deserve basic human rights. Unquestionably. Who is saying that about Jews right now?

I don't know. It hurts.

[thorny locust]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn

There are about seven million Jews and seven million Arabs in Israel/Palestine. All of them should have the right to live in peace and freedom under democratically elected governments. Nobody should have to leave their homes, and nobody should be expected to live indefinitely as second-class citizens.

This is certainly true.

However: there are two sets of people with a reasonable claim to the same homes. In some cases not just the same general area -- but the exact same houses, the exact same farms.

Which makes "nobody should have to leave their homes" impossible to achieve.

With a whole lot of good will on all sides (there are more than two) and with nobody of evil intent breaking into potential agreements by murdering innocents, there might be a way to work this out. As it is --

we get people, sometimes, asking 'what would convince you that an entity really is God?' to which I'm always tempted to answer 'Create peace in the Middle East, without killing everybody living there.'

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn

Hamas doesn't control the West Bank, and headscarves aren't mandatory there, nor are "concert halls and theatres" forbidden.

Yes, its theoretically the PLA, who is theoretically against terrorism.

Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn

Any country which accepted Palestinian refugees would be getting a lot of "hardworking useful people", but the majority of them would be uneducated children. Realistically, they would be a net economic drain on their host country for at least decades to come.

True. Question, how did the average age of the population in Gaza get to be less than 20 years old?

Originally Posted by The Mighty Quinn

Israel has now been occupying much of Gaza for the last eight months, and has made NO EFFORT WHATSOEVER to open any health clinics or schools for the Palestinian population, much less "dance halls".

Well they are in the middle of a shooting war. Israel needs to provide extensive support not because they care, but purely out of self interest. Thats going to be a hard sell with voters that will require actual leadership. Ultra orthodox Israelis need to be taken out to the woodshed and then drafted into the military.

[Jaglavak]

Other question; how is it possible that on one side of the world we have a government who's stated goal is eradication of an entire population based on race and religion, and is in fact willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of their own. While on the other side of the world we can't discuss obvious facts in a civil manner without being called racist? The propaganda war has deep roots too.

[Sputnik]

I fear we’re about to get dragged into a war in the Middle East. I see SECDEF Austin is committing American troop assets to the theatre. That’s how it starts, sending in troops just to keep the peace, protect civilian lives, secure American assets, deliver humanitarian assistance, etc. choose one.

[kirin]

What strategic interests do we have in defending Israeli war crimes?

[Jaglavak]

We're there to provide a ballistic umbrella over Israel while they give those assholes in Iran a good boot to the nads for us. We're not putting boots on the ground unless we lose a carrier. In which case Iran is toast.

This is shaping up to be a once in a lifetime opportunity to loosen the grip of a fascist theocracy that has been exporting terrorists throughout the middle east for decades. And possibly end up with a more moderate faction in charge who don't want to pursue an A bomb.

[kirin]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

We're there to provide a ballistic umbrella over Israel while they

While they commit war crimes and ethnic cleansing (as they have since 1948).

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

give those assholes in Iran a good boot to the nads for us. We're not putting boots on the ground unless we lose a carrier. In which case Iran is toast.

How is Iran a threat to us? Which country did the 9/11 hijackers come from? Iran? No, our "ally" Saudi Arabia.

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

This is shaping up to be a once in a lifetime opportunity to loosen the grip of a fascist theocracy that has been exporting terrorists throughout the middle east for decades. And possibly end up with a more moderate faction in charge who don't want to pursue an A bomb.

Fascist? Oh FFS, stop using words you don't understand, boy.

[Kingoffrogs]

Originally Posted by kirin

How is Iran a threat to us? Which country did the 9/11 hijackers come from? Iran? No, our "ally" Saudi Arabia.

1: Iranian nuclear potential may destabilize the entire middle east and forestall US influence over the region.

2: 1/4 of all of the world's oil goes through the Strait of Hormuz. Iran, in theory could blockade this strait and destroy port infrastructure in the gulf states in the event of a conflict with the US. This would be catastrophic to the global economy as a whole.

3: Iran provides Russia, another US rival, with arms. Particularly drones and missiles.

4: Iran provides signifigant military and financial aid to proxy militant groups, notably the triple H (Hamas, Hezbollah, and Houthis). These militant groups have interests that conflict with Israeli and, by proxy US interests.

[Sputnik]

Tomorrow marks the one year anniversary of the Hamas attack on Israel. I’m sure you remember the attack on the unarmed concert goers that cost over 1000 innocent lives. It appears the situation is expanding.

I cut the following from CNN this morning.
• War on multiple fronts: Netanyahu has said that Israel is fighting “against the enemies of civilization” on seven fronts, including Iran-backed Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza, the Houthis in Yemen, and Iran itself. “Rest assured, Israel will fight until the battle is won –

I’m beginning to think Israel is biting off more than is reasonable. I’d prefer Israel finish off Hamas before moving to the next enemy. I’m all for providing American arms to Israel, but I still fear we’re headed towards American boots on the ground.

[NAF1138]

I don't know that Israel is being given a choice.

What started as a response to a single terror attack has turned into much more with multiple other attackers joining. This is not a fight Israel is picking. I disagree with Netanyahu on most things, but I genuinely don't know what else Israel could do.

All that said, at this point I'm much more concerned with what is happening to Jews outside of Israel. Multiple synagogue burnings. A planned mass shooting at a synagogue in Minneapolis was just stopped yesterday. Jewish cemeteries being desecrated. Day schools and private homes being graffiti'd. Daily I hear about new attacks on Jewish citizens in the US Canada and elsewhere.

But, mostly no one seems to care. This is terrifying to me.

364 days later most of the hostages are still missing.

[C2H5OH]

Originally Posted by NAF1138

But, mostly no one seems to care. This is terrifying to me.

The people who care, don't matter. The people that matter, don't care. Yes, that situation is truly terrifying.

[Sputnik]

I agree with your point NAF1138, Israel doesn’t have a choice. Oct 7th proved that.

[Kingoffrogs]

Originally Posted by Sputnik

I’m beginning to think Israel is biting off more than is reasonable. I’d prefer Israel finish off Hamas before moving to the next enemy. I’m all for providing American arms to Israel, but I still fear we’re headed towards American boots on the ground.

I've suspected the same for a while now.

While the Israeli military does appear to have a 3:1 manpower advantage (standard advantage that, to put it shortly, most generals concur is necessary to win a war) the logistics of a multi-front war is a different story.

Hezbollah has shown these past months that they have solid ICBM/rocket artillery capabilities, but so does Hamas. Israel's iron dome can't stop every single incoming missile, and Iran's latest ICBM salvo adds to more uncertainty, I'm certain.

It appears that Israel has assessed the cost of not invading Lebanon and simply taking their bombardments, and concluded that it exceeds the cost of an invasion into Lebanon. Hopefully this doesn't mean that Israeli intelligence thinks that their conflict with Hamas will be like how Afghanistan was for the US:

Long and hard. (like my cock).