Your opinion on this Hotel/Smoking/Photo dispute, please?

[Salambo]

A couple stays in a non-smoking hotel room, enjoy their stay, and then get charged $250 for smoking in a non-smoking room. Okay, I say sure, if someone was smoking in a non-smoking room, it costs money to get that smell out. (The woman insists she couldn't possibly have been smoking because she's asthmatic and can prove that... whatever, maybe she did, maybe she didn't, but being asthmatic hasn't stopped some of the hardcore smokers I know of.) Christ, I knew an older woman who complained bitterly that she wasn't able to smoke immediately following her surgery for THROAT CANCER. She still smokes like a haystack today. Certainly customers have been known to try anything to save a buck or 250, even if they were in the wrong.

Anyway, that aside... according to this article:

"We told her we had pictures and evidence that she was smoking in her room. And we do," Rappaport said. "I don't know if we made a mistake. So we're going to assume that we did make a mistake because it's our job to make the guests satisfied when they leave and to make sure we treat them fairly and they leave happy."

Important bit bolded. Pictures and evidence of her smoking in her room? Maybe this is poorly worded. Can they have pictures of her in her room, smoking? Or could they just mean they have pictures of her at another location smoking, and the evidence is, say, cigarette butts in the ashtray. That seems a little more reasonable to me.

Anyone familiar with the hotel industry to know what the protocol would be for obtaining a picture of your guest as proof of something? And why refuse to show them a copy of it?

Curious.

[Random Precision]

They may have photos of her from a hall cam or parking lot cam smoking and cigarette butts in the trashcan of her room. I am quite certain that if they had photos of her in her room, that is the last thing they'd want to be known. The lawsuits would be legendary.

[WednesdayAddams]

Huh. In context, it sounds like they took pictures of the room after they vacated (ashes? who knows?) and have something that can verify the room was smoked in. It's absolutely legal that they can charge someone for smoking in a non smoking room, and lots of hotels have that policy.

[Panacea]

I vote for poorly worded. They have pictures. They have evidence of smoking in the room. Not necessarily pictures of her smoking in the room.

[Chacoguy]

Most people would be shocked at how narrowly defined 'Privacy" is; "Upskirt" photos, while vile, are legal. The same goes for hiding a camera in a gymbag and photographing people in a locker room. If they can shoot you though a window, it's legal. That guy that shot Erin Andrews was convicted of stalking, not the video per se. He also created peep holes that weren't there originally. It was the following her around and altering the room that got him in trouble. The video was incidental.

Now, if a hotel chain wants to cut it's own throat by revealing that they are photographing the guests in their rooms they can go right ahead.

[Wolf Larsen]

Taking video of guests inside the room is a prosecutable felony in jurisdictions.

[Salambo]

Aight. You guys are pretty much confirming what I've been thinking, but I had a moment where I wondered if I'd missed something. I was boggling for a while over why the guest wasn't making a bigger deal over the fact that her picture was taken. Well, she sorta did, but more in the vein of "Show me the pictures!" rather "WTF, hotel, in my room?"

[Chacoguy]

The line, while ill defined (each case stands on its' own) is: If other people can see what I see; it's legal to shoot. So, if I can shoot you from the parking lot, I'm legal. If create a situation where I hide a camera where you would normally be seen, then, I'm not.

So, if other folks can see you getting out of the shower at your health club, I can legally shoot you. I may not be able to legally sell the shot, but I can take it. On the other hand, if I drill a hole through the wall of your room...NOT legal.

[hilarity n. suze]

Originally Posted by Chacoguy

The line, while ill defined (each case stands on its' own) is: If other people can see what I see; it's legal to shoot. So, if I can shoot you from the parking lot, I'm legal. If create a situation where I hide a camera where you would normally be seen, then, I'm not.

So, if other folks can see you getting out of the shower at your health club, I can legally shoot you. I may not be able to legally sell the shot, but I can take it. On the other hand, if I drill a hole through the wall of your room...NOT legal.

Please, please tell me this is not true that if you can see me getting out of the shower you can shoot me. I really think there is an expectation of privacy there and you would get in a lot of trouble. I mean, it's a communal shower, come on.

[Chacoguy]

I'm not a lawyer. I'm not particularly interested in where the exact, legal, line is; I've looked into this only as far as my company is concerned. (Yes, if you're out on public land, in broad daylight, I can shoot you and sell the shots even if you look like a dumbass or are with your mistress)

So, my understanding is: If two people can see you, it's "Public", and it's legal to shoot. So, if you're in a short skirt, getting out of a sports car and we see what we see; it's legal. If I hide a microcamera in your toilet, that's not.

So, if you're in a communal shower...sorry, but I'm pretty sure that it would be legal to shoot there. Again, I'm not a lawyer, nor paparazzi. For instance, I'm not sure what the legalities of shooting inside a sex club might be like. I'm not particularly interested in finding out either.

[hilarity n. suze]

The shower is not public. The part of the gym that has big glass windows, yeah, you could shoot through those windows, you can see through them from the street. But I do believe people have an expectation of privacy in the locker room and it would be illegal to take a picture there.

If they had an open house and let just anybody walk through the women's locker room, then okay. But I'll bet nobody would be taking a shower that day.

Likewise you couldn't take a picture in the dressing room of Loehman's. It was a big communal dressing room, so lots of people were in there trying on stuff. I'm pretty sure anyone who took a photo would have been prosecuted, even though more than two people could see you.

[Jaglavak]

I don't know too much about that, but as a plant engineer I can tell you the two places that are legally off limits to installing security cameras are the toilets and locker rooms.

[Auntbeast]

Originally Posted by hilarity n. suze

Likewise you couldn't take a picture in the dressing room of Loehman's. It was a big communal dressing room, so lots of people were in there trying on stuff. I'm pretty sure anyone who took a photo would have been prosecuted, even though more than two people could see you.

You mention this like it is the most benign thing in the world. The first time I walked into a Leohman's dressing room, I was absolutely horrified. If you haven't seen 50, 3ft tall, 80+ year old women in all their support foundation glory, you, my friend, can not imagine the horror.

How I miss that place!

[Salambo]

I wonder if they do have a picture of her, specifically, smoking somewhere, and not just shots of the place after they had vacated the room. It's just odd to me that they are targeting her and not, say, her fiance, who was also in the room with her.

But I'm up late and rather bored, so don't mind me.

Either way, they got their money back. I imagine the attitude change happened rather quickly once the hotel realised that they were both attorneys with the state Department of Justice. Right or wrong, at that point, the hotel probably just said "fuck this, give them the money!" rather than have their name dragged through the dirt. Though it seems like it's already happening.

[Promethea]

My based-on-nothing guess is that the couple were innocent of the crime and that IF they'd found any evidence - burn marks, ash etc then it was from a previous guest and that the hotel was just trying to bill the most recent guest because the damage had previously been overlooked.

For this reason, to answer the quiz question, I'm betting it's either just of the damage itself, as WednesdayAddams outlined OR they don't have any photos of anything or anyone and that it was just a poorly thought through bluff, the hotel hoping to tigger a guilty conscience and that this is why they were vague as to what the pics actually were of.

[blank]

I'm afraid I got as far as "Irish Fest" in the article and gave up.

[Borborygmi]

[hotel bar lizard]

Hey, baby, did they charge you an extra $250 for your room? Cuz I've seen the hidden camera shots of you in there and you're smokin'.

:: Passes out ::

[/hotel bar lizard]

[I, Claudiot]

Originally Posted by blank

I'm afraid I got as far as "Irish Fest" in the article and gave up.

You really have to try it some time. They're even better in states with majority German-descended populations.

Faith and begorrah!

[blank]

Originally Posted by I, Claudiot

You really have to try it some time. They're even better in states with majority German-descended populations.

Faith and begorrah!

hang on, just let me get my shillelagh (by 'shillelagh' I mean 'cricket bat')

[I, Claudiot]

Don't forget the auld sod, you auld sod!

[Lord Blackmore]

For those interested, here's an article that does a decent job discussing photographer's rights. It's a small tangent from the OP, but it addresses some of the things mentioned in this thread, including expectation of privacy, upskirt/voyeurism and what is generally ok to photograph.

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography...aw_rights.html

[scareyfaerie]

I'd want to see the photos that actually physically prove it was her that smoked in the room. If the hotel took pics of ash and cigarette butts after they had vacated the room, how can they prove it was her and not the hotel staff smoking in there?

[wring]

RE: pictures, my suspicion would be video of the hall w/her leaving her room w/a lit cig in her mouth, which would indicate that yes, she'd been smoking in the room.

[WednesdayAddams]

Originally Posted by Salambo

It's just odd to me that they are targeting her and not, say, her fiance, who was also in the room with her.

This bit at least is easily explained. They likely paid with her credit card, and the hotel was probably going to levy the charge against that.

[Salambo]

Originally Posted by blank

I'm afraid I got as far as "Irish Fest" in the article and gave up.

Aw, but I'm sure it was all authentical, with everybody wearing green and bedecked with clovers and wearing great fluffy hats and such! And people butchering random Gaelic phrases!

While at an "Irish" pub here in Seattle:

Some dude: "Slainte!"
Me: "Did you just say 'cilantro'? Man, how long until Cinco de Mayo*? I want some cilantro!"

* You know, the other drinking festival celebrated here in the USA. However, I've noticed Oktoberfest on the rise. I suppose it's about time. I'm thinking of starting some false rumours about Victoria Day being a huge day of drinking and hockey celebration in Canada to see how quickly the idea is embraced. Any excuse for some of these folks to get pissed and blame it on another country.

:hijack:

[I, Claudiot]

Chucky ar la!

[nonny too]

I remember that when Diana, Princess of Wales died, in addition to the footage showing her and Dodi in the Ritz lobby, there was also footage of her and Dodi having dinner in their room. I expect that many high end hotels have security cameras in their suites and especially in the VIP suites, but they're probably in the living areas rather than the bedroom and the bathroom.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it's perfectly legal to have security cameras in hotel rooms in the US provided that their presence is disclosed - I'd expect there to be strict laws regarding how the footage from them can be used though.

[Salambo]

Originally Posted by I, Claudiot

Chucky ar la!

*snort* Nice.

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by Auntbeast

If you haven't seen 50, 3ft tall, 80+ year old women in all their support foundation glory, you, my friend, can not imagine the horror.

Well thank you very much! I wasn't planning on sleeping any more this week anyway.

[Chacoguy]

Just to respond, I think Lord Blackmore's post is closest to the pin in most States.

[elbows]

My guess;

There are, very likely, signs in the halls, saying they have video monitoring for your security. The maid likely found evidence of the smoking, people being idiots and all. She reported it, they set a camera right outside the room, and either waited, till someone opened the door, or, sent someone to knock on the door. Bingo, photographic evidence of them smoking in their non smoking room. It's also entirely possible there was some disclaimer stating the charge for non compliance with the non smoking designation, when they signed in.

No laws broken.

[mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Salambo

'm thinking of starting some false rumours about Victoria Day being a huge day of drinking and hockey celebration in Canada to see how quickly the idea is embraced.

Wait, it isn't? My Habs were playing in the Eastern Conference Finals on Victoria Day, and I do seem to recall being rather drunk that weekend.

'Course, the Habs lost that round, but hockey goes on until mid-June anyways, and even without that, May 2-4 is the unofficial start of summer and therefore a very heavy drinking weekend!

[Salambo]

Originally Posted by mnemosyne

Wait, it isn't? My Habs were playing in the Eastern Conference Finals on Victoria Day, and I do seem to recall being rather drunk that weekend.

'Course, the Habs lost that round, but hockey goes on until mid-June anyways, and even without that, May 2-4 is the unofficial start of summer and therefore a very heavy drinking weekend!

That's truth enough, and just enough fuel to make this plane fly, I'd bet. Us Canadians do love our drink, just like the Irish, and the Mexicans, and the Germans... and the Americans celebrate ALL of the above. Yeah, yeah, melting pot and all that, but I always think it odd when it's used as an excuse to go drinking: "On St. Patrick's Day, EVERYBODY'S Irish!" Oh, aye? And everybody's Mexican on Cinco de Mayo, and everybody's German... oh, wait.

Anyway. Just trying to help my fellow 'Merkins get more drink on. On Victoria Day, everybody's Canadian! So everyone will then wear toques bedecked with maple leaves, wear Canadian hockey jerseys, we can even make some "Canadian coffee" with Tim's and Crown Royal. Sweetened with maple syrup! And all pubs will serve Alpine, Molson, Moosehead, Labatt's, and/or Kokanee; and for food, poutine and nanaimo bars. "Canadian Beer" will be swill tinted red.



...

I just 'jacked my own thread pretty hard, there, didn't I? :hijack: BOX ME!

[Jaglavak]

Restraining Salambo, mmmmmm.

Just thought of another angle. One time I stayed in a high rise hotel at a ritzy resort destination in the US. Every room had a balcony and they were all directly above the pool area. A sign in the lobby said no dropping stuff off the balconies. You will be persecuted, blah blah.

Well, on the last night we were there a bunch of cops and hotel folks showed up and pried open the room two doors down the hall from us. From all the yelling and flailing I gathered that a bunch of dipshit drunks got to dropping coins down to the pool, which thankfully was deserted at that time of night. Apparently it had been such a regular problem that the hotel set up cameras on the tower across the way. They had video of the dipshits on the balcony.

The point is, that video must include everything visible through all 30 floors of windows. I'm sure the staff is treated to homegrown porn about every night, not to mention countless hours of entertainment watching folks get high, scratch their nuts, comb their hair, watch TV, etc etc. The cops were there so I'm sure they couldn't do it if it wasn't legal. So apparently yes they can do that.

[nonny too]

All taxis and buses here have hidden CCTV cameras installed. There are big signs telling you about them, and yet I never feel the same awareness of their presence as I do in other locations. Same as elevators. Intellectually I know that there's a camera in the elevator, but I don't really think "better not feel up my boyfriend in the elevator".

I can see how the couple in the OP could have been well aware that there were cameras and still not have thought through the implications of that.

Mind you, half the time when a major crime happens here it turns out that at least half of the cameras which should have recorded it were either turned off or faulty at the time it occurred.

[mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Salambo

Anyway. Just trying to help my fellow 'Merkins get more drink on. On Victoria Day, everybody's Canadian! So everyone will then wear toques bedecked with maple leaves, wear Canadian hockey jerseys, we can even make some "Canadian coffee" with Tim's and Crown Royal. Sweetened with maple syrup! And all pubs will serve Alpine, Molson, Moosehead, Labatt's, and/or Kokanee; and for food, poutine and nanaimo bars. "Canadian Beer" will be swill tinted red.

Sounds like a Friday night to me!

Actually, tonight it's the CFL...