Rape. Again. But different.

[ncoggneato]

Ok. So my chosen profession is one in which my clients are perpetrators of domestic violence both male and female. In one of the groups this week, we spent the time discussing rape. This came about by a group member sharing that his new partner revealed to him that around 4 years ago she was the victim of acquaintance rape. The Rapey guy is still somehow around via her work or social group or neighborhood...basically the chances of my client running into Rapey are slim but still possible.

Since learning this my client has gotten all weird and angry around his partner. He says he is pissed all of the time, constantly thinking about the rape, picturing it, wanting and asking for details, imagining beating Rapey up and or killing him. He is not able to be sexually intimate with her lately due to his icky feelings. He says he tries hard to cover it up around her but he is raging inside and she can tell.

Most of the men in the group identified with this client stating that they too have had or have a partner who is a survivor of sexual assault and they are also angry and all of the above about it. One man even shared that his partner had been raped while they were together and when he was at the hospital with her while she was getting her forensic rape kit and statements to the police done, HE almost had to be sedated and caused such a scene that he was almost removed from the premises.

It was at THIS point I asked the men why they think they are so affected by something that happened to a person when they didn't even know that person EXISTED when it happened. I also "wondered" OUT LOUD why they thought it was appropriate to make a person's rape about THEMSELVES rather than the survivor. According to the room of 16 men, it makes TOTAL sense. Mostly because (again, according to the men) men understand but HATE the idea that another man (men?) have (and I QUOTE) "been in there before me".

There was WAY more to the discussion and we went a lot deeper than what the above would lead you to believe. However, I keep coming back to the initial questions I had, why is her rape about you and you didn't know her when it happened so why is she having to hold you back from going and killing Rapey when you see him in the car behind you in traffic or rephrased: why are you carrying so much rage and letting this interfere with your relationship both emotionally and physically?

Which brings me here! I am seeking the perspectives from a different cross section of men since I understand the ones I was listening to are...of a certain mindset let's say. I want to know any and all thoughts or opinions that come up whilst thinking of this discussion. Well, not ANY or ALL thoughts or opinions but you know what I mean. I am seriously curious if my clients are the minority or the majority. I am calling to the men in my community to EDUCATE and ENLIGHTEN me!!! for once...

[iampunha]

If someone hurts my wife or one of my sisters or my mother or grandmother or some other woman I'm close to, I'm not happy. Doesn't matter if it happened yesterday or 40 years ago.

If someone rapes them, that's encroachment onto my turf. It's mine to protect. Doesn't even matter if I was alive when it happened.

A guy molested my grandfather and his siblings when they were kids, starting in 1918 or so a cycle of abuse that ended in about the 1980s. If by some science fictiony way he became present physically near me (he's way long since dead and decomposed, and hitting bones is useless) and he wasn't old and ridiculously weak, I'd recommend in fairly harsh words that he turn himself in or kill himself in a convenient-to-the-world way before I turned him into something less savory than an entire human. Why?

He fucked with my people. Literally. Fucked them. One of them joined a convent to get away from him.

And lord, if the wife happened to remember being raped by someone before she met me, it would be a spectacularly stupid idea to have me in the same state as that person. It has relatively little to do with him having been inside her and more to do with him harming her. I don't react well to people harming my people.

One of my sisters is married. Her husband is reasonably physically competent -- not disabled, but not a weightlifter. Strong enough, I assume, to do what needs to be done.

Doesn't matter. If she needed something taken care of, her husband, my brother and I would be there in a day (planes take an awfully long time) to get it done. One of her students threatened her fetus when she was seven months pregnant, and I was ready to get out there if her husband needed help dealing with a young teenager. (The kid got suspended for seven days, I think.) Why?

My turf. My people. Don't fuck with them and you get to live. A few months ago, I was ready to kill a guy for scaring my wife by tailing her for several blocks at night. And a friend of mine (male) offered to take care of the guy if I couldn't or wouldn't.

Don't fuck with my people. Don't give me a reason to break you and I won't.

I'm a pretty peaceful person otherwise. Just don't give me a reason to be otherwise for a minute or two.

[MarkF]

Hello ncoggneato,

First off, that's a tough gig you've got there. Good for you.

Second. Sadly, I think the responses you got in your group are fairly typical for blokes and it's a a crock, frankly.

The woman first has the shock, indignity and terror of experiencing that event, she then has to have the ownership of dealing with it taken from her by her precious other half who suddenly see's her as spoiled goods. What a swell bunch.

Note: I am only referring to their thoughts about it. Any wanting to protect is one thing (as ianpunha indicates) but I disagree with the automatic "hunt and kill" response if that isn't what the woman wants. (And, of course, I wouldn't advocate that as a good idea anyway, let the coppers do it.)

What they should be doing is finding every way they can to work through it with her. Why more blokes don't get this I have no idea...

[Turing Complete]

You're asking people to articulate something that's so innate that it probably seems odd that you're even asking the question. You may as well ask them why they'd be embarrassed if they were naked in a room with coworkers. This is the way we've evolved in our social structure. It's comes with the wiring -- my body, my woman, my family, my tribe, my clan. If you rape my woman, you have attacked me, and I need to have vengeance -- no matter how she feels about it. Can't blame us too much though. If it weren't an important survival strategy, we wouldn't feel this way.

It's not as if we can't do anything about it though. In the first world, we seem to have gotten past the "kill your daughter if she sleeps with a man" part, so that's progress. I think we can get past this other stuff too, but you may as well start any attempts at change with the understanding that this is the baseline you're working with.

I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that this type of mentality is more prevalent among perpetrators of domestic violence than the population at large.

[Auntbeast]

I was molested as a child, my husband sees how this affects me. While his comments about have been few and far between, the wall that gets thrust out is that he'd want to do everything to my father I was unable to do. I was unable to stop it, I was unable to hurt him, I was unable to protect myself. It makes me feel good. I don't think it takes anything away from me, but he isn't irrational about it. When we have discussions about it, he doesn't see me as a grown woman able to take care of myself that it happened to, he sees me as a very, very small child. He understands it isn't the me now, he is enraged that it happened to the me then and because it happened to the me then, it changed the me now.

Both of us were very glad we found out he was dying, pissing all over himself and living in filth and that he ultimately died alone and as unloved as he should have been.

Just to be clear, the part that makes me feel good about his reaction is his realization and understanding of what the situation was. He doesn't get encumbered by seeing me as I am now in understanding how traumatic the situation was. Then again, one of the things I've always liked about him, is that although I am a big girl and can take care of myself, he never felt like that was a reason for him not to take care of me.

[AHunter3]

It was a long time before any of the women I was involved with wasn't a survivor of rape. Just luck of the draw maybe but it does happen a lot.

I was already mad at the rest of my sex, generically speaking; I didn't need specific case examples.

I don't understand the "been in there before me" thing at all nor do I see what it has to do with rape. Surely these guys didn't think the women they were with were not sexually active people prior to their own debuts as lovers until they heard about the rapes?

[Solfy]

I can sort of understand the case where the couple were together when the rape occured - in the BF's mind it was his job to protect his partner, and he couldn't, and he wants to fix that. The anger over past situations seems a little stranger to me, though I can understand the rage at knowing the perpetrator is still around and making the partner feel threatened.

A friend of mine in college was acquaintance-raped. The next boyfriend she had after that found out what had happened. The friend had to make sure New Boyfriend didn't run into ex-boyfriend to avoid a scene (it came close to happening once and was clearly not going to be pretty). He was angry that someone could/would/had done something to hurt her and wanted to make sure it never happened again, even though it was unlikely to since she had cut off contact with the ex. Sure, the rape was in the past, but she was still dealing with the hurt and the aftermath. Perhaps in New Boyfriend's mind as long as she was still suffering, ex-boyfriend should be suffering, too.

I think it's only natural to want to protect those you love, but natural urges can be blown up into irrational ones. It sounds to me like the bigger concern is not so much the origin of these protective feelings but the extreme "I'mma mess him up!" nature of them. Sort of like the difference between someone who keeps little bits and bobs of stuff in case they might be handy some day and a full-blown hoarder.

[Erasmus Darwin]

Originally Posted by Turing Complete

You're asking people to articulate something that's so innate that it probably seems odd that you're even asking the question. [...] It's comes with the wiring -- my body, my woman, my family, my tribe, my clan.

I think this is a good point. At least some of the behavior can probably be traced back to base animal instincts in terms of reproductive behavior. Animals do all kinds of crazy stuff (including infanticide of a sexual partner's children sired by another father) in an effort to maximize the likelihood of passing on their own genes. Even just past partners can bring up some jealousy, so it's not unreasonable that rape (even prior to the relationship) would bring up even stronger feelings.

And on a completely different level, it's worth recognizing that anything that affects your partner is going to affect you. Even in a functional relationship, that's going to be expected. When you share your life with someone, you tend to share all sorts of moods and emotions and ups and downs. Would we even be having this discussion if, say, the people in question had an equally strong reaction because their partner had cancer?

I think it's not wrong that they have strong feelings about the situation, but I do think they need to work on how they deal with the feelings. I don't think trying to get rid of the initial feelings and keeping it as their partners' problem is the right approach. To me, that seems like you're leading them toward just plain not caring, as if their partner is just some arbitrary acquittance with some vaguely tragic history. Instead, I think they need to recognize that it affects both them and their partners, but they also can't allow their own hurt to dominate how they deal with the situation.

[WednesdayAddams]

I was going to put this in the other thread then thought better of it.

I don't think it's difficult to articulate so much as there are so many conflicting emotions, all of them unpleasant, that sifting through them to come up with the answer to 'why?' is challenging. 'Why?' may not even seem like a valid question; those emotions seem justified in and of themselves.

Rape, like home invasion, feels personal*. And like home invasion, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. You can't undo it, you can't fix it, You can't make it right. You're helpless to do anything butdeal with the fallout. I think (guys, correct me if I'm wrong) it's that helplessness that causes the anger and frustration almost as much as the act itself. They cannot make it better, and someone they protect (for lack of a better word) is still hurting.








*Please note: I realize the two are not the same or on anywhere near the same scale.

[MarkF]

Originally Posted by Erasmus Darwin

Would we even be having this discussion if, say, the people in question had an equally strong reaction because their partner had cancer?

I'm note sure this is the same question ED but I daresay something like this engenders the same (or similar) sense of helplessness.

Originally Posted by Wednesday Addams

I think (guys, correct me if I'm wrong) it's that helplessness that causes the anger and frustration almost as much as the act itself. They cannot make it better, and someone they protect (for lack of a better word) is still hurting.

Absolutely. I can't imagine how that would feel, (at least in this particular scenario, other types, yes (DV etc.)) but to clarify my point, to turn around and reject someone because you are now aware of something that when you were blissfully ignorant of it, made no difference at all, is pretty damn shoddy.

[Fish]

I assume that 90% of the time when men feel strong anger, it's to cover up other emotions. In this case, I think it's a deep feeling of failure — shame, inadequacy, and failure to do one's duty to protect his woman from harm. She's hurt and there's nothing he can do.

It's also why men get angry when their woman cries. She's hurting and he can't fix it, doesn't know what to do. So he feels like a failure, and gets angry.

[Mako]

Hello ncoggneato,

why are you carrying so much rage and letting this interfere with your relationship both emotionally and physically?

The first thing I thought when I read that question is exactly what Wednesday, Mark and Fish said.

And in the specific instance you're talking about, because the direct object of his rage is inaccessible, he misdirects it in part toward the person who conveyed the experience to him and therefore made him feel that way. Not violently, to be sure, but the relationship becomes poisoned.

[Detroit Hoser]

My Significant Other is a corrections officer at a maximum security prison here in Michigan. We didn't know each other when I was raped and beaten several years ago, but she still sees the lingering scars, physical and emotional, on a daily basis. She knows the name of the man who assaulted me and she keeps track of which prison he's in (and keeps the details to herself, because I don't want to know anything about him until and unless I absolutely have to.)

I asked her what would happen if he was transferred to her facility and she was aware of it. Technically, she said, she would be required to tell her warden of the personal connection she has with the prisoner, and he would then be transferred to a different prison. And then she hesitated before adding, "but it would be a shame if I forgot to do that before The Guys and I [her fellow C.O.s] had a chance to give him a proper welcome." And yes, that means exactly what you think it means.

So yeah, it's not just a guy thing to want to do fierce bodily harm to someone who has hurt someone you love. In my partner's case, I believe she'd do the ethical thing and let the warden know before the temptation to cave to her fantasies was in front of her. But if she didn't, and there were no repercussions for her actions... I wonder if it would make either one of us feel better. Somehow I doubt it.

[Lord Blackmore]

Originally Posted by Fish

I assume that 90% of the time when men feel strong anger, it's to cover up other emotions. In this case, I think it's a deep feeling of failure — shame, inadequacy, and failure to do one's duty to .

Sure, but....

The example in the OP is something that happened before the new angry guy came into the picture. I really can't get my head around the anger and "want to do bad things to rapist" thing. It wasn't their duty nor failure to protect them because they didn't even know the woman yet.

Maybe it's just me. But the absolute worst thing I could do if I were the "new guy" is to articlute any such feelings or press her into providing more details. Protect and support absolutely. Act out, even verbally, no way. That's just harmful.

Oh and that group sounds like most of the men are troglodytes. Me Man! Me Protect. Man SMASH! . I weep for my gender sometimes.

[KidVermicious]

Most of what I was going to say has been said, but something else that would bug the heck out of me is wondering what my partner is feeling about it, and how is she comparing the rapist to me? Like, when we're in bed, is she remembering the other guy? Hoping I don't act like that? Being reminded of her assault and too afraid to say anything? Incapable of enjoying the act and not telling me?

I've don't know if any of the women I've been involved with have been sexually assaulted. If any were, they didn't tell me about it. But I think that's what would mess with me the most, knowing that my parter was a victim of sexual assault... what do I do with that? As a man, who is expected by society to step in front of any danger to my loved ones, to relieve any undue distress caused by a third party, to be a pillar of strength and emotionally supportive of my partner at the same time... what am I supposed to do? I personally have a strong instinct to protect, and if someone were to assault my wife I know for sure it would be a hard struggle not to hunt them down, accusations of machismo be damned. I'm well aware that in most circumstances that that's exactly the wrong reaction, particularly in regards to my wife's needs. But we're guys. We don't know what else to do. That saying, if hitting it with a hammer doesn't fix it, get a bigger hammer? That's us. We hit things with clubs. Making our partner feel better is an imperative. We can't make the partner feel better by hitting her with a club, that isn't going to work. What else can we hit? Oh, I know!

I am sitting here imagining how I would feel if somebody violated one of my loved ones, and the biggest emotion I can come up with is helplessness. Socially, I'm not supposed to do anything to the perp. At the same time, I've already failed in my duty to protect, and I have no idea what to do to make it better. Is it any surprise that this translates to rage? The OPs group sounds like maybe a bunch of folks that aren't well socialized anyway, and I can easily understand why a person like that might choose to focus on their own emotions in a crisis like we're talking about.

It's a horrible horrible thing to even contemplate. But to look at a guy whose partner has been raped and tell him to go sit in the waiting room, there's a good boy... well, I think thats pretty poor. It may be as nothing to his partners anguish, but the emotional trauma he's feeling is still probably the most he's ever felt.

In the case of the OPs group members, folks who are reacting to an assault that happened prior to their relationship with their partner, there's two things happening. There is still the instinct to protect, from the aftermath of the act if nothing else. Since they can't protect, they redirect, and yeah, it becomes about them. It's a coping mechanism. There is some contempt for these gentlemen in the OP and some subsequent posts, and I think it's misplaced. These guys aren't well adjusted, we know this, they're in a group for wifebeaters, for hecks sake. To label them as "troglodytes" and dramatically weep for our gender is probably a little over the top though.

[Anacanapuna]

Originally Posted by Detroit Hoser

My Significant Other is a corrections officer at a maximum security prison here in Michigan. We didn't know each other when I was raped and beaten several years ago, but she still sees the lingering scars, physical and emotional, on a daily basis. She knows the name of the man who assaulted me and she keeps track of which prison he's in (and keeps the details to herself, because I don't want to know anything about him until and unless I absolutely have to.)

I asked her what would happen if he was transferred to her facility and she was aware of it. Technically, she said, she would be required to tell her warden of the personal connection she has with the prisoner, and he would then be transferred to a different prison. And then she hesitated before adding, "but it would be a shame if I forgot to do that before The Guys and I [her fellow C.O.s] had a chance to give him a proper welcome." And yes, that means exactly what you think it means.

So yeah, it's not just a guy thing to want to do fierce bodily harm to someone who has hurt someone you love. In my partner's case, I believe she'd do the ethical thing and let the warden know before the temptation to cave to her fantasies was in front of her. But if she didn't, and there were no repercussions for her actions... I wonder if it would make either one of us feel better. Somehow I doubt it.

There is more enlightenment in this one post, young lady, than there is in the rest of the board today. Thank you.

[Dragonlady]

Hear hear Hoser!

[ncoggneato]

[QUOTE=There is some contempt for these gentlemen in the OP and some subsequent posts, and I think it's misplaced. These guys aren't well adjusted, we know this, they're in a group for wifebeaters, for hecks sake. To label them as "troglodytes" and dramatically weep for our gender is probably a little over the top though.[/QUOTE]

It makes me sad that I conveyed contempt for my clients because that really isn't how I feel about them at all. Ok. Maybe a little.

I have male co-facilitators in the men groups and we spend many an extra hour or 400 a week processing what came up in group for the men as well as for us. The men I currently work with are unbelievably amazing in terms of their feminist ideologies and therapeutic approaches. However, I forget sometimes that every day I am sharing brain space with the extremes on either end of the social spectrum. This leads me to get some jacked up perspectives regarding my community as well as men in general (I also volunteer sometimes at a men's release prison). All of this is why I am here trying to take the pulse of a wider range of people so I can better understand what the fuck is going on out there. The clients say, "that's just what men do/think/feel..." and my co-facilitators say, "nawww, I sure as fuck don't..." So I am left to try to figure out what the "AVERAGE" man does/thinks/feels by sifting through all of the crap left at both poles. I said "poles".

It is 100% appropriate to have rage when someone you love has suffered unnecessarily. It is appropriate to discuss this with said loved one as well. Where my problem lies is when the victim is left to take care of their support person because they are so overwrought with despair.

Members of the group in the OP also kept giving the advice "You guys should get into counseling". I kept reminding the group that the survivor in this situation has already dealt with her own shit and no longer needs such support that it was her partner that isn't keeping it together.

What the group was saying sounded like this to me, "What? You were raped x amount of time ago? Oh. My GAWD! That is awful and I am soo sorry that happened to you. I am also so pissed off that a guy thinks he can just DO that to someone. ARGGGG! take care of me because I am so overcome with emotions about your rape that I can't function. Side-note: if he ever crosses my path I am going to put myself at risk of not being around for you any more(in jail)which may cause YOU to feel guilty for ever telling me about your trauma because it 'caused' me hurt which 'made' me do something about it".

To me this seems like forcing the survivor to continue to deal with her past trauma because her new partner can't deal. Which again leads me to the question, what is it that he has to deal with since it is just new information about the past?

An ex-partner shared with me that his older brother had molested him for several years. I was very saddened by this information for sure and it brought up a lot of stuff for me which I explored. But I also took his lead in terms of interacting with his brother. We saw him often actually and since my partner was "ok" with everything I didn't make any of it about me by saying I wouldn't go to Thanksgiving because HE will be there etc. I avoided putting my partner in a position of having to take on my crap as well as lug around his.

Would I have jumped all over the opportunity to confront the brother? You better fucking believe it! But again, it wasn't about me and my partner would have been FUCKING pissed if I even gave a hint to the brother that I knew let alone reminding HIM that it had happened at all whilst we were attempting to have a nice evening.

Basically, I am trying to figure out if the response is a gendered thing or a person thing. Because I don't relate in the same way and the men and women in my personal life don't either I have no clue. I want to avoid jumping to conclusions about men, men who are abusive and then my clients who are abusive men who got caught. I don't want to give my clients faulty and inappropriate information.

[Solfy]

Could it be a case where the man is making much of his rage over the past incident to indicate the extreme depth of his feelings? You know the sort of person - they're not having really good ice cream, they're having the Best Ice Cream EVER and you've GOT to try it! And they don't just love their girlfriend, they LOVE HER MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE COULD POSSIBLY EVER LOVE HER! For some people, emotion isn't genuine if it's not amped up to eleven. So if he finds out his GF was raped in the past, he's not just mad, he's SO mad he can't possibly contain the depth of his anger? In their desire to express this emotion they're losing sight of the fact that it's really not about them.

Particularly in a group setting (unless I'm misunderstanding the setting) I could see a sort of protective urge one-upmanship going on.

[SmartAleq]

I think a lot of it comes back to something inherent in DV perps' behavior--that so much of what they do comes out of pretty normal relationship dynamics, but with an exaggeration and lefthand twist that puts it way outta whack with normal behavior. Sure, it's normal to feel rage and pain when someone you love has been hurt, but normal people manage to hold it together and not make it all about them. For example, my family has expressed to me multiple times how much they'd singly and in groups like to disassemble my ex's head and shit down his neck for the way he treated me, but even though that treatment goes back many years they managed to at least be civil to him out of deference to me--they didn't want to isolate me further by drawing lines in the sand and forcing me to choose. That's being supportive. If they'd been fucking drama queens and railed on about how they simply cannot BEAR being around that ASSHOLE and simply CANNOT control their anger in his presence to the point where I had to withdraw from any family gathering so's not to be in the middle of a goddamned emotional tornado it would have been abuse on top of abuse and really unhelpful.

Being unwilling to the point of (feigned) inability to respect your partner's wishes and take her lead on how to deal with her rape is just another control tactic disguised as concern. It's letting her know that EVERY facet of her life, even her past, is his to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HER issue, he now OWNS it and she'd better damned well pay attention to what he says to do about it. So disrespectful.

[eleanorigby]

And I'm no psychologist, but don't these men have boundary issues in a big way?

I get that they'd be upset that someone they cared about was hurt. But their rage is only making matters worse--and now that hurting person has to help Rage Guy feel better (or at least talk him down), which burdens the possibly already overwhelmed Hurt Person, if you follow me.

[Wolf Larsen]

Originally Posted by Anacanapuna

There is more enlightenment in this one post, young lady, than there is in the rest of the board today. Thank you.

+1

[Chacoguy]

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

Being unwilling to the point of (feigned) inability to respect your partner's wishes and take her lead on how to deal with her rape is just another control tactic disguised as concern. It's letting her know that EVERY facet of her life, even her past, is his to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HER issue, he now OWNS it and she'd better damned well pay attention to what he says to do about it. So disrespectful.

That's a very good and interesting point.

[SockHop]

I've been sexually abused/assaulted, and when I've told a partner about it, I've never gotten such an extreme reaction as described in the OP. Nor have I sensed any ongoing, repressed rage. If I did, I'd run like hell, because it reminds me way too much of the abusive people I've been around who felt they owned me. It's that jealous/possessive ragey thing, and I've seen quite enough of that in my life, thank you very much.

I do think it's normal for someone who cares about you to feel and express anger about what happened. But also empathy. Where is the empathy from the men in the OP? I agree with you, OP, that it's all about them. At least with what you've written, they're not talking about how this affected their partner and that it makes them angry (sad? where's the sadness?) that someone would do something to harm her. ("I'm so filled with rage at the thought of someone harming my wonderful partner I want to kill them.") They're saying they hate the idea that another guy has "been in there before them." ("I'm so filled with rage at the thought of someone having sex with my partner I want to kill them.") I.e. in their minds, they're the victim here, and to hell with anyone else. I agree with you--they're making it about them. It's just another way of telling their partner they own them.

Of course, if a guy went on about how he's so filled with rage he wants to harm/kill someone who harmed me because he feels bad that anyone would harm me, I'd still run like hell. I don't like people filled with ongoing rage in general.

[KidVermicious]

Originally Posted by ncoggneato

The clients say, "that's just what men do/think/feel..." and my co-facilitators say, "nawww, I sure as fuck don't..." So I am left to try to figure out what the "AVERAGE" man does/thinks/feels by sifting through all of the crap left at both poles.

Well, ok. For the record, I disagree with your clients that all men feel that way. But I'm not convinced that all of them are reacting the way they are because of control issues.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

Being unwilling to the point of (feigned) inability to respect your partner's wishes and take her lead on how to deal with her rape is just another control tactic disguised as concern. It's letting her know that EVERY facet of her life, even her past, is his to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HER issue, he now OWNS it and she'd better damned well pay attention to what he says to do about it. So disrespectful.

If I said, "It's letting him know that EVERY facet of his life, even his past, is hers to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HIS issue, she now OWNS it and he'd better damned well pay attention to what she says to do about it. So disrespectful," would that be better? Because every relationship I've been in, and many of which I've heard, has this dynamic. "Oh reeeeeally?" the woman says archly. "Who was this ex-girlfriend of yours? Did you like her? I need to know all this information RIGHT NOW. Was she prettier than me?"

Yeah, the issue isn't a "troglodyte male" issue, it's a human issue.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Fish

If I said, "It's letting him know that EVERY facet of his life, even his past, is hers to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HIS issue, she now OWNS it and he'd better damned well pay attention to what she says to do about it. So disrespectful," would that be better? Because every relationship I've been in, and many of which I've heard, has this dynamic. "Oh reeeeeally?" the woman says archly. "Who was this ex-girlfriend of yours? Did you like her? I need to know all this information RIGHT NOW. Was she prettier than me?"

Yeah, the issue isn't a "troglodyte male" issue, it's a human issue.

I can't say that I've experienced that in every relationship I have been in, but some women have been that way. And there doesn't seem to be anything that they have in common (other than me) that would suggest a link between those that were.

I was definitely that way in my late teens - lord, was I an obnoxious shit to H - but once I hit my twenties I found that I really didn't want to know about their pasts. It seems sort of self-defeating, like you want to beat yourself up about something. Maybe it's a subtle insecurity, (not to cast any aspersions against your partners, Fish). Or maybe it's finding yourself in such an ideal situation that you want to... nitpick.

[KidVermicious]

Originally Posted by Fish

If I said, "It's letting him know that EVERY facet of his life, even his past, is hers to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HIS issue, she now OWNS it and he'd better damned well pay attention to what she says to do about it. So disrespectful," would that be better? Because every relationship I've been in, and many of which I've heard, has this dynamic. "Oh reeeeeally?" the woman says archly. "Who was this ex-girlfriend of yours? Did you like her? I need to know all this information RIGHT NOW. Was she prettier than me?"

Yeah, the issue isn't a "troglodyte male" issue, it's a human issue.

I wish we could rate posts. Thank you for the excellent articulation, scaly one.

[SmartAleq]

Originally Posted by Fish

If I said, "It's letting him know that EVERY facet of his life, even his past, is hers to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HIS issue, she now OWNS it and he'd better damned well pay attention to what she says to do about it. So disrespectful," would that be better? Because every relationship I've been in, and many of which I've heard, has this dynamic. "Oh reeeeeally?" the woman says archly. "Who was this ex-girlfriend of yours? Did you like her? I need to know all this information RIGHT NOW. Was she prettier than me?"

Yeah, the issue isn't a "troglodyte male" issue, it's a human issue.

There's an order of magnitude's difference between normal human curiosity regarding a lover's past and the kind of controlling obsession a DV perp is capable of. If you've never been on the receiving end of it, it can be pretty hard to accept just HOW crazy ass those people can get. Which is, of course, one of the things they count on--that nobody's gonna believe that good ol' Bob is actually capable of behaving in such an amazingly violent and controlling manner.

[KidVermicious]

Do you realise that this sounds like you're saying that when it's a man, it's a crazy-ass amazingly violent controlling obsession, but when it's a woman it's just normal curiosity regarding a lovers past?

[SmartAleq]

Did you miss the part where the OP specifies she works with both M and F perps? Now go back to my last post and notice that the only remotely gender specific word in it is the name "Bob." Reading for comprehension, it is a good skill.

[KidVermicious]

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

Did you miss the part where the OP specifies she works with both M and F perps? Now go back to my last post and notice that the only remotely gender specific word in it is the name "Bob." Reading for comprehension, it is a good skill.

I didn't miss anything. I didn't miss that you failed to address the previous posters real point, I didn't miss that you waved away what his female partners have done as harmless curiosity while pointedly using a male name to associate with what you feel is "real" controlling behavior, and I certainly didn't miss the fact that you've become immediately defensive and insulting when called on it.

[Uthrecht]

Originally Posted by Fish

If I said, "It's letting him know that EVERY facet of his life, even his past, is hers to decide how to feel about and deal with--it's no longer HIS issue, she now OWNS it and he'd better damned well pay attention to what she says to do about it. So disrespectful," would that be better? Because every relationship I've been in, and many of which I've heard, has this dynamic. "Oh reeeeeally?" the woman says archly. "Who was this ex-girlfriend of yours? Did you like her? I need to know all this information RIGHT NOW. Was she prettier than me?"

Yeah, the issue isn't a "troglodyte male" issue, it's a human issue.

Bolded a section of your post. First off, I'd note that DV is not a gender issue. So you're right there.

I think that there is a spectrum containing curiosity, defensiveness, and control with regards to partners. Different people will fall on different points on that. Certainly, the women you describe are further down at the defensiveness point, with the information given. To get the rest of the way down, in my opinion, to the controlling that's being described, they would also have to be disallowing you from meeting your exes, possibly even preventing you from going to places you might run into them.

At the same time, someone demanding information about an ex and being critical about the whole thing is not, to me, normal human curiosity. It has more fear and worry underlying that, and is along the road towards trouble.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by SmartAleq

There's an order of magnitude's difference between normal human curiosity regarding a lover's past and the kind of controlling obsession a DV perp is capable of.

Whoa, whoa. I believe we're speaking to cross purposes. The thread began with, "Some domestic abusers display Jealousy Behavior X. What do non-DV men of the Giraffe Boards say?"

The post I quoted, and my reading of the thread, does not appear to declare that ipso facto that domestic violence was a function of (that is, that Y has only one result of X) the behavior. If anything, it was the other way around. I read the post as "people who are DV have Jealousy Behavior X," not "people with Jealousy Behavior X are DV." Was I mistaken, or do you believe jealousy automatically imply domestic abuse? People everywhere can be irrationally jealous.

[SmartAleq]

Originally Posted by Fish

Whoa, whoa. I believe we're speaking to cross purposes. The thread began with, "Some domestic abusers display Jealousy Behavior X. What do non-DV men of the Giraffe Boards say?"

The post I quoted, and my reading of the thread, does not appear to declare that ipso facto that domestic violence was a function of (that is, that Y has only one result of X) the behavior. If anything, it was the other way around. I read the post as "people who are DV have Jealousy Behavior X," not "people with Jealousy Behavior X are DV." Was I mistaken, or do you believe jealousy automatically imply domestic abuse? People everywhere can be irrationally jealous.

No, jealousy doesn't automatically lead to DV, but it is a power/control tactic and therefore well within the arsenal of a DV perp. All of us have curiosity about our lover's former liaisons, but most of us are willing to accept the boundaries our partners set for us about how much they're willing to share. DV people are notorious for not respecting ANY boundaries set by another person, and this is just one of the boundaries they'll trample all over. The thing is, there are MANY types of DV and not all of them are physical by any means. Men are just more likely to use their fists, women are more likely to be emotional, sexual or financial abusers. It's all DV, just not what most people think of when they use the term. Sometimes the bruises are on the psyche.