WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE

[BrickaBracka]

Eventually.

But in a more dramatic fashion, some sooner than others. And indeed, some directly at the hands of others. Looking at you, 'Rona spreading anti masking anti vaxxing fuckwits! Even indirectly. Looking at you, oil companies and the rich pricks who run them!

What's the board's general feeling as it relates to the slow erosion of our country's social climate, our planet's actual climate, and your role in it?

Personally...I struggle to exhibit anything resembling pity for obstinate folks who ignore science and reason, choose selfishness instead, and in the end - lose all they hold dear because of it. I also recognize that there's a mirror to my perspective on the other side - where some person who holds literally opposite views to my own feels the same way about me.

But for my own sake ... I lament the loss of the world that was here a couple decades ago. When there was a basic level of agreement we all held. Companies polluting is a bad thing. Doctors have your best interest at heart. Other people think differently, but that doesn't mean they should die.

I am slowly slipping into nihilism about it all - except for the fact that I have a daughter. I worry for the world she's growing into. I didn't give her any siblings because I realized what they'd be raised into. I don't worry *for* the world per se, I worry about what kind of experience she'll have in it. If it were only me...I'd just pull a Carlin and ride the wave, watch the show, and check out when I'm done.

I recognize the limitations of my ability to meaningfully change the world she'll inherit. Boy I sure do want to though! With much grit and effort I can impact only my immediate surroundings...I dare not play the lottery game that is "be a world changer". What the fuck would I have to offer the world anyway other than hopes and dreams. "Sure would be nice if we could all stop being dickheads, eh?" A single voice in a crowded sea of rageful screams peppered with ambivalent interlopers who realize ... there's just fuck-all that can be done about it.

They say "Be the change you want to see in the world". Well that's nice and all, but unfortunately, it's the same as building castles in the sand. I can be a good human all I want but the ocean of popular society and the waves of overbearing power of the rich assholes that treat our world like a giant city building video game will wash it all away.

[What Exit?]

I've been an environmentalist for most of my adult life. I'm in my mid-50s now.

We've made progress on a lot of issues, but boy have we failed on Climate Change. The Oil companies and Koch Brothers spent close to a billion probably to fuck the world over.

But I still try and I still do my part. I try to encourage others and am an active part in an Environmental group that makes a small difference. I am a member of several other groups.

Though ex-Repub, I am now Indy and vote Dem.

I guess all I can say is keep trying and keep hoping. Though this last 18 months has made it clear how hard it is.

[spitzoid]

There is no order without chaos. Let your enemies define you, take a breath, and have a laugh at what ridiculous monstrosities we all are.

[Bob3141592]

The world sucks. The world has always sucked. And as long as people are running the show, or think they are, the world will continue to suck. There is zero evidence to think it will ever be any different. We're chimps after all, and chimps are nasty, vile animals. Too smart for their own good, and not smart enough to be good to any other.

To think that the world was better in the 'good old days' is a sign of our privilidge. Good in what way? Good for whom? The poor have always been unpleasant to be around, and all we have done for them is to keep them out of our sight. We don't help them to be successful - we only measure our success by how much more than us they suffer. The more they suffer, the more we can think of ourselves as better than them. The others have always stood in our way, and we continue to believe that even as we walk over them.

And we have never, ever agreed that the welfare of others were more important than our own profits. We might say that companies polluting is a bad thing, but we'll buy their products even while the rivers burn. We've no choice but to buy from them, and we've no problems with having what they sell. We only complain when we're downwind of the garbage, and that mainly because the stench drives our own customers away.

I've always wanted to make the world a better place. I've tried my best to make things better, or so I tell myself. In reality, I've just been a tool of forces and powers I've no clue about. Looking back over the events of my life, and the actual results of my best intentions, I haven't achieved any of the goals I'd dreamed of. Dreams aren't real. I know that. I just haven't known I've been dreaming of being awake. Still I try to do what's right, and I will continue to try, but I'll never know if my effects on others are for the greater good, or if I'm only setting them up for a fall. I can't make those judgements. Nobody can. Not for myself, or for those closest to me. I don't understand how the world works, and I don't know what makes people tick. So I stumble along my own path - or I stumble along where there is no path, knowing I'm going nowhere in particular. We can continue along together if you'd like, or go it alone. I'd appreciate the company, but I can't make any promises. Nor would I expect anything more from you. That's the best I could offer.

Whatever. Life is neither good or bad. The past is silent, and the future is not for us to say. Now is everything we have, and that doesn't last but an instant. Why would we want it to? This instant is enough. It has to be. There may not be another. Same goes for everyone. Whatever, it's your call.

[picunurse]

"No one here gets out alive."

[C2H5OH]

Originally Posted by Bob3141592

... This instant is enough. It has to be. There may not be another....

Jesus said the same thing:

"Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" - Matthew 6:34

Don't borrow trouble. You've been given enough of your own...

Deal with tomorrow's shit when tomorrow arrives. Fortunately, that never happens, because every time you wake up, it's not tomorrow, any more. You always wake up in 'today'. Deal with tomorrow's shit, tomorrow. Deal with today's shit, today.

[BrickaBracka]

Originally Posted by Bob3141592

To think that the world was better in the 'good old days' is a sign of our privilidge.

I can't help but at least acknowledge, if not outright agree, with just about all that you said. But this point - I'm certainly not pining for the "good old days" - rather trying to articulate a feeling that the list of things we all agreed upon was a longer list in my past than it is today.

Now, spend some time, sit down and talk without allowing anger to well up between two people of differing political ideologies - you'll almost immediately find that the list is the same today as it always was. But still there exists a feeling ... a general unease or distrust. And I think that has been fomented recently to a higher pitch than it was in my past. Not to say it's never been done. But it's here, again, and just as dangerous.

Originally Posted by C2H5OH

Jesus said the same thing:

"Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" - Matthew 6:34

Don't borrow trouble. You've been given enough of your own...

Deal with tomorrow's shit when tomorrow arrives. Fortunately, that never happens, because every time you wake up, it's not tomorrow, any more. You always wake up in 'today'. Deal with tomorrow's shit, tomorrow. Deal with today's shit, today.

I know the quote, I agree with the sentiment, however I also acknowledge that there are many "tomorrow" things which you're able to impact today. After all, it's the entire reason agriculture was started. Plant today what you will eat tomorrow.

And so there are plenty of things we can do today, informed by yesterday, which will change the tomorrow we wake up into.

Taking this to an extreme leads to paralyzing stress and anxiety, yes. One cannot try to control tomorrow perfectly.




The impending nihilism I had when writing the OP seems to have subsided for the moment. I'm sure it'll be back. Now I just have to figure out what seeds I plant today so that tomorrow there's a worthwhile crop to be had either for me, my kid, or whomever stumbles across the field in the future...

[shruggle]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE

This is technically not known to be true. You are going to be put in a torture chamber created via a theory of everything that is impossible to turn off, however.

[C2H5OH]

Originally Posted by shruggle

This is technically not known to be true. You are going to be put in a torture chamber created via a theory of everything that is impossible to turn off, however.

Well, technically "Country Joe and the Fish" have given us the definitive statement on that question:

[SurlyOldBroad]

Meh. Not me.

[JackieLikesVariety]

Originally Posted by SurlyOldBroad

Meh. Not me.

nice to see you, SOB!

[Guinastasia]

Hey, SOB!!! Long time, no see!!!

[SurlyOldBroad]

Still alive, as will always be the case.

[eleanorigby]

Yeah, so?

(SQUEE to see SOB!)


I don't disagree with all the things already said (I skimmed so don't hold my feet to the fire), but my take is somewhat different.

Okay, not really, but I do struggle with trying to remain positive. I need hope and joy for my remaining years. I have no plans to leave this earth until circa age 90, but I've been told I'm not in charge of those plans.

I am dismayed at the lack of urgency in climate change issues, but I do see positives: solar and wind are accepted and more and more Americans want them, and electric or at least hybrid cars etc. What is missing is Big Industry, especially Big Oil. Without industry change on a massive scale, anything we do as individuals won't matter.

As for the political situation, I am very tired indeed of the cycle of purity and protest votes that gets us such slight margins of Dems in US Congress that we end up still being controlled by the amoral minority. We need real political progress, so if you are so inclined to hold or thumb your nose re Dems, please vote for them anyway. Let's save the house; then we can argue about how best to rehab it. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[Radical Edward]

[shruggle]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

Okay, not really, but I do shruggle with trying to remain positive.

You can't say kampf without fap

[Jaglavak]

Shuriken!

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by shruggle

You can't say kampf without fap

I don't know what you mean. And folks wonder why people don't post more.

[shruggle]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

I don't know what you mean. And folks wonder why people don't post more.

Well, you see, according to Mein Kampf, Hitler was meandering the streets of Vienna, peddling his mini-frescos (one of which he sold to Freud ), when he developed a love affair with the Jews. Euphoric, and not before knowing what a Jew was, and them being such nice people, he could hardly contain himself. After closer inspection, however, he realized that the exact opposite is true, and that they are filthy spies, (bipolar much?) therefore proceeding to enact his final solution to this Jewish Problem.



"Struggling" to stay positive? Probably better to have a wank, lest history repeat itself.

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE

Not if she takes our advice.

[C2H5OH]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

I don't know what you mean. And folks wonder why people don't post more.

Naw, actually we wonder why that dipshit posts as much as it does... And why it hasn't been permaboxed, yet....

"Do not ask for whom the bell box tolls. It tolls for thee"

[Jaglavak]

You gotta at least give him points for originality. Ozoned, but original.

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

I don't know what you mean.

Kampf has an 'f' and an 'a' and a 'p' in it. That's it, that's as deep as it gets. The rest is just random horse exhaust. Not a bad job of it though.

[eleanorigby]

Anyone would struggle to stay positive with him around. So, it's not enough to joke about Hitler and the Holocaust (all to make a joke about wanking), he's dismissive of people's experiences now.

Shruggle, you're an ass of the highest order.

[BJMoose]

Eleanorigby Johnson is right! He's been promoted to the Highest Order of the Banned.

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by SurlyOldBroad

Still alive, as will always be the case.

Whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother
You're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Feel the city breakin' and everybody shakin'
And we're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by BJMoose

Eleanorigby Johnson is right! He's been promoted to the Highest Order of the Banned.

Hurray!

Originally Posted by kayaker

Whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother
You're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Feel the city breakin' and everybody shakin'
And we're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive

[Anacanapuna]

I dunno what Jesus said, and I frankly don't trust the scribes of the time or of the centuries thereafter. I will just say that I want to live long enough to dance with my granddaughters at their weddings. If I can hold Callie in my arms and spin her around the dance floor while her bridegroom looks on enviously, I'll gladly check out at least a week later (let her have a honeymoon before she has to attend Grandpa's funeral.) I held their squirming little bodies when they were babies and marveled at them, and watching them grow into beautiful young women is the joy of my life. After that, let me go. Let me stop worrying about my heart rate and my blood pressure and the torn cartilage in my shoulders and the liver damage and ... just let me share the joy of that one day with them and I'll gladly shuffle off this mortal coil.

[Jaglavak]

Yeah well if you get any bonus days after that, go ahead and take them. No need to shuffle too fast.

[Solfy]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

What's the board's general feeling as it relates to the slow erosion of our country's social climate, our planet's actual climate, and your role in it?

I don't believe the social climate is eroding. Humans are animals. A study of history has shown me that society is a thin veneer on a creature with tremendous capacity for evil but an overall tendency to just want to get by. The current social climate is just casting a light on the seedy underside that's always been there and always will be.

As for the actual climate, you can't walk back 100yrs of pumping fossil fuels into the atmosphere. We're going to have to live with the consequences of that and it's going to suck. Change will happen, but it will be too slow and too late to spare us a good long chunk of fallout in terms of a nasty global climate and all the associated troubles that brings. We can learn to stop or slow the pumping of carbon into the air, but it's going to take a looooong time. The universe will balance things out to whatever new equilibrium conditions dictate, and we as a species will muddle along until we can't.

[Bob3141592]

Originally Posted by Solfy

I don't believe the social climate is eroding. Humans are animals. A study of history has shown me that society is a thin veneer on a creature with tremendous capacity for evil but an overall tendency to just want to get by. The current social climate is just casting a light on the seedy underside that's always been there and always will be.

As for the actual climate, you can't walk back 100yrs of pumping fossil fuels into the atmosphere. We're going to have to live with the consequences of that and it's going to suck. Change will happen, but it will be too slow and too late to spare us a good long chunk of fallout in terms of a nasty global climate and all the associated troubles that brings. We can learn to stop or slow the pumping of carbon into the air, but it's going to take a looooong time. The universe will balance things out to whatever new equilibrium conditions dictate, and we as a species will muddle along until we can't.

I agree with you overall. I just don't think we have the time. Today's society is far more fragile than most people think. We have built a house of cards, and it will only hold as long as we can harvest the planet's natural resources on an industrial scale. If not, any real break of the global supply chain will spread through the system like an unmasked plague. Once food production and/or delivery stops for longer than three days, its all over. The rich countries may or may not hold out a little longer, but not much longer. The system depends on the exploitation of the lower classes, but they are the ones who will suffer first and worst. I see no way to avoid this, and I don't think there will be any humans celebrating the new year in 2100. The party may stop decades before that.

[C2H5OH]

Originally Posted by Bob3141592

... The party may stop decades before that.

The party stopped about a decade ago. Now we're in the "hangover and vomiting" stage. Of course, part of that is 'do you have friends around who will roll you over if you start choking on your own vomit.' I don't see any aliens around doing that, so we may be a bit fucked, there. The real question is "Will we survive to reach the 'wake up Monday and go to work, anyway, despite how bad you feel, and the mess you made'?" stage.

[Guinastasia]

EVERY generation says, "our society is doomed!" Nowadays, we hear more about disasters and tragedies due to the media and such, but if you look back at history, it's the same as it's always been.

Do things change? Yes. But are we doomed? Fuck no.

[Wolf Larsen]

I don't think there will be any humans celebrating the new year in 2100

Color me skeptical in the extreme on this. Humans are really adaptable and harder to kill than cockroaches.

[Jaglavak]

Yup. I strongly suspect there won't be as many of us around by then. But the ones who are left will be some ornery motherfuckers. And they probably won't qualify as 100% human.

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

EVERY generation says, "our society is doomed!" Nowadays, we hear more about disasters and tragedies due to the media and such, but if you look back at history, it's the same as it's always been.

Yes as far as the human drama goes. But today is different due to the very long term effects we are leaving on the planet. No generation in history has had the capacity to trash the world for all future generations.

[3acres]

Originally Posted by Jaglavak

Yup. I strongly suspect there won't be as many ofj us around by then. But the ones who are left will be some ornery motherfuckers.

Yeah. Even if you kill 99% of all humans, you still have about 80 million people left.

[Guinastasia]

Well, pollution wise, that's a different story. Granted, even pollution's nothing new, but THAT we are going at a much faster rate, nowadays.

[BrickaBracka]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

EVERY generation says, "our society is doomed!" Nowadays, we hear more about disasters and tragedies due to the media and such, but if you look back at history, it's the same as it's always been.

Do things change? Yes. But are we doomed? Fuck no.

we can consider the past thousands of years of human society and the relationship to the planet much like a person driving a car with an engine that hums along at a set speed, chug chug through whatever. no gas pedal and relatively flat terrain.

today? with the explosion of population, the proliferation of communication technology that allows the loudest and dumbest ideas to float to the top, and the insane rate at which we are changing the chemical composition of our atmosphere? it's more like that car got the throttle stuck wide open while driving along a cliff. also, instead of a person, it's a whole indian bus.

so now we're zooming along at an uncontrollable speed and we're so much more topheavy than ever before. it's fair to say things are very unstable and guaranteed to end poorly.

it is true to say the planet will be "fine". but the people are fucked.

[Pencil]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

the explosion of population

Hmmm. In the sixties and seventies there was a real scare about population growing exponentially and all of us ending in a malthusian hell hole. If you check the curve, it's still growing, but slowly flattening. You don't hear about people starving in poor countries, the way you did back then*.

We can talk about reasons for starvation and poverty, but all in all, humanity is leading a better life than ever in history. Yes, of course, there are groups and individuals living in hell on earth, but not to the extent we thought 40 or 50 years ago.

That doesn't mean we can kick back and say everything is fine, it'll all work out. But the planet will survive. Humanity will survive. I wouldn't take bets on our current civilisation and way life continuing the way it's been going for the past 50 years. I think kids born this year will look upon us, the same way we look at people who were alive and could affect change in the 1930's. They will not be kind: You saw this coming and you did nothing?


*Sometimes I wonder if climate change is the price we're paying for lifting so many people from horrible and deadly poverty.

[fucktard loser]

Your premise is flawed.

[BrickaBracka]

Originally Posted by Pencil

Hmmm. In the sixties and seventies there was a real scare about population growing exponentially and all of us ending in a malthusian hell hole. If you check the curve, it's still growing, but slowly flattening. You don't hear about people starving in poor countries, the way you did back then*.

We can talk about reasons for starvation and poverty, but all in all, humanity is leading a better life than ever in history. Yes, of course, there are groups and individuals living in hell on earth, but not to the extent we thought 40 or 50 years ago.

That doesn't mean we can kick back and say everything is fine, it'll all work out. But the planet will survive. Humanity will survive. I wouldn't take bets on our current civilisation and way life continuing the way it's been going for the past 50 years. I think kids born this year will look upon us, the same way we look at people who were alive and could affect change in the 1930's. They will not be kind: You saw this coming and you did nothing?


*Sometimes I wonder if climate change is the price we're paying for lifting so many people from horrible and deadly poverty.

The math on this is real easy. Couple million compared to couple billion.

People pollute. The industries which support those populations pollute.

More people = more pollution. More pollution = accelerated environmental change.

My comment about the explosion of population is in relation to the very clear difference between earth population prior to 1900 and today.

It's exponentially different, and the effects on our environment reflect this. It's also why any comments about the past stability of our climate aren't relevant to what we'll be facing in the coming decades. The shape of the candle is little more than a memory once you've tossed it into the fireplace.

[3acres]

Originally Posted by BrickaBracka

More people = more pollution. More pollution = accelerated environmental change.

There are 5 billion more people now than when I was born. About 2.7 billion then; about 7.8 billion people now. Roughly three times as many. That's a lot of people, a lot of pollution, a lot of atmospheric carbon.

[Sunny Daze]

Thanos 2024?

[BrickaBracka]

Originally Posted by Sunny Daze

Thanos 2024?

I'd say we're gonna get snapped whether it takes an Infinity Gauntlet or not.

[Guinastasia]

And maybe it sounds naive, I truely hope we CAN stop global warming. Pollution is also nothing new, like I said. It may be worse, but I don't believe it isn't something we can't face.

If we've done it before, we can do it again. (If people are willing, that is)

[Jaglavak]

Magic 8 Ball says the world will continue to drag its feet moving away from carbon based fuels, since there is no workable alternative in view. And economic output is pretty directly linked with energy consumption of one kind or another. Since national policy is directed by and for the rich, nothing involving economic suicide will happen until the elite are thoroughly terrified.

Optimistically, devo scale fusion power plants come on line in 2030 with full scale designs available for sale around 2040. At the emergency production rate of one new power plant per week, it takes a large country like China or the US 15 to 20 years to switch over electric production. Meanwhile solar panels and wind generators will continue to take market share. Large swaths of the economy get electrified, most notably industrial heat, railroads and truck lanes. The development of electrolytic production of steel, carbon capture at concrete plants, and a large scale decline in fossil fuel production all contribute toward reducing CO2 output.

Unforch the numbers show it will be too little too late, and world temperature rise will shoot up to around 5 to 10 degrees F. Large scale weather disasters follow including shutdown of the gulf stream, failure of the asian monsoon, melting of glaciers and ice caps, large scale methane emission from melted permafrost, and extreme heat events all over. Large scale pest outbreaks as the checks and balances of nature break down. Regional migration wars that threaten to draw in the big boys. However with luck nobody pushes the button and the undersea methane clathrates mostly stay put and we avoid becoming part of the mass extinction.

In desperation the world turns to geo engineering to block sunlight and remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Since all forms of CO2 capture hardware will never even capture as much as was emitted to build them and are basically all a scam, nature will be recruited. Top contenders include ocean fertilization with iron oxide, stratospheric emissions of sulfur dioxide, and scadzillions of orbiting little mylar umbrellas. This will work for the crucial decades it takes to get us through the worst of it. The world will be a harsher and more limited place afterward, and 3/4 of all species will be extinct. Including perhaps humans if you take into account the definition of a species and the explosive advances in genetic engineering that will continue to occur.

Optimistically.

[fucktard loser]

If the species can stop waging war upon itself and stop producing certain “by-products” then we might stand a chance. That is until the next super-volcano eruption or asteroid strike.

[C2H5OH]

ain't gonna happen... you, on the other hand will probably edit your previous post to say "0". just to stay consistent...