A Wizards True Name - Day 1

[Scáthach]

For scum to have their one shot at least one scum must share the name with at least one town.

It's possible that's the only shared name, in which case I bow down to red skeesix for the greatest game of red herring ever, but I think it's unlikely.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[SisterCoyote]

Originally Posted by Scáthach

But a cop can confirm town as well as identify scum? Like even if no one was able to investigate scum, it would still be useful to confirm some townies

Hang on a sec:

Originally Posted by Red from the rules thread

All town players have the same ability and all scum players have the same ability

Are we positing that there are other power roles than the universal Town/Scum powers as written in the rules thread?

Because I think that in the rules there suggests this is a totally open setup. Which means all we gots is investigators and all they gots is kills and investigators and sacrifice-a-Scum.

[Scáthach]

Originally Posted by SisterCoyote

Hang on a sec:

Are we positing that there are other power roles than the universal Town/Scum powers as written in the rules thread?

Because I think that in the rules there suggests this is a totally open setup. Which means all we gots is investigators and all they gots is kills and investigators and sacrifice-a-Scum.

What extra powers do you think are being posited?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[bufftabby]

Wow, this setup has me feeling pretty rusty. I'm trying to wrap my head around how this is all going to work.

I'm feeling hesitant about a mass name claim. Although I'm certainly not convinced that it's a bad idea, I'm also not convinced that it's a good idea.

Real helpful, right? I'm hoping this game setup will make more sense to me soon.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by SisterCoyote

Hang on a sec:

Are we positing that there are other power roles than the universal Town/Scum powers as written in the rules thread?

Because I think that in the rules there suggests this is a totally open setup. Which means all we gots is investigators and all they gots is kills and investigators and sacrifice-a-Scum.

the rules say that Town gets alignment results.
they don't specify what results Scum gets
" Each night you may select one team member to investigate another player. This investigation will only succeed if you have the same first and last name as the player being investigated, and you are the only person investigating that player that evening. Otherwise you will receive "No Results" "

alignment seems redundant- so maybe they get the coveted information of the first name? ( which by definition would give them both their and the targets full true name)- which may also support the idea that Name claiming would benefit Scum?

[SisterCoyote]

Originally Posted by Scáthach

What extra powers do you think are being posited?

Imaginary ones brought about by my cold medicine, apparently.

I've just re-read the conversation between you and Giraffe and I have NO idea where I got that from.

[Scáthach]

Originally Posted by SisterCoyote

Imaginary ones brought about by my cold medicine, apparently.

I've just re-read the conversation between you and Giraffe and I have NO idea where I got that from.

Well well WELL!! Seems like scum talk to me!

(Incidentally as someone who was recently quite sick - why the FUCK can't they make a cough medicine that actually works???)

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[SisterCoyote]

:P I think it was because one or the other of you capitalized Cop but don't quote me on that.

(I don't have the faintest. Also, a cold medicine for people with high blood pressure that genuinely works would be nice, too.)

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by Heterometrus swammerdami

Or even less than that, e.g. "six letters at least one of which is A."

Ambiguities can be addressed with challenges later, perhaps Day 2 or later. The important thing to begin with is to get Scum on record with their lies.

I agree with this 100% I suggest number of letters and tell us one letter in the name.

Originally Posted by TexCat

Perhaps we should just start with how many letters are in our names and see what we get. If it turns out that we all have 5 letter names, then we can go around again with another bit of info.
.

I rather doubt we all have the same amount of letters in our names. It's way too simplistic.

[TexCat]

I wasn't suggesting that we would all have the same length name. That's why I suggest that we start only with the length of our names. Without giving any letters away, scum will have a much harder time actually guessing a name.

For example, let's suppose that only 3 people have 4-letter names. Then there would be no point in saying (and telling scum) that they all start with A or that they contain an x.

[LightFoot]

wait let me
think

with a lynch - first and last name will be revealed


Scum would know if they shared the last name ( and the players that had the same number of letters in their first name as the lynchee- because of the reveals)

Town would know if they shared the first name-


advantage Town-they learn a last name -but what good would that do?- I don't see one currently


advantage Scum-It narrows the field of players that Scum will investigate with a possible result- since they have a first name and the number of letters in other players


back story= a dead Town is revealed as Fred West- a live Scum is ? West- 1 or 2 other Town players claim to have a 4 letter first name-
Scum ? West investigates the players that claim to have a 4 letter first name and gets a result when they find Fred West -

Fred West is a carrot for the do and die DK ( the way I read it they don't have to have matching names for the DK- just know it) so the collective would have that.

[TexCat]

Trading 1 for 1 with the day kill only makes sense for scum in the end game. And I'm guessing that by that time, they'll have figured out someone's name. But I don't see any reason to make it easier for them, or give them multiple choices of who to kill.

Town does not need to know any names. We only need to make investigations efficiently.

I suggested length of name, but maybe starting letter would be OK. But the important part is to only give up 1 bit of information, and then decide if we want to give up another bit.

[zuma]

I'm somewhat against a mass name claim, although the only way I can imagine it hurting us is if some or all of scum have the same first and last names. I'm not ready to count anything out at this point though. The only advantage seems to be finding some sort of pattern (i.e. 7 pairs + 1 triple). If scum were forced to make up a first name then we'd see some singles out there.

I'd be more open to coordinating investigations to get the maximum number of results and no interference (aside from the 1 investigation scum would be able to block). Assuming 4 scum for the sake of argument, they'd know which 4 townies would be investigating them, but would only be able to block one of them.

Also, if we do decide on a name claim, I'd like to see the order determined by something other than one of us running it through random.org and presenting a list. I remember one game we used the score of an upcoming basketball game or something to determine the seed. Maybe there's a better way that I'm not aware of.

[zuma]

This game is making my head hurt. I just thought of something. If we do coordinated investigations (and I think that is the right move, can anyone think of a reason not to do it?), then maybe a mass name claim could be the way to go?.

Any matches should then investigate each other. Scum would then have to decide between making up a new name (thus being a "single"), or stealing one from town and inviting an investigation. Of course they'd probably just make up a name and pair themselves with another scum. But maybe that could be useful too if one of them flips scum.

Again, though, we'd still run the risk of scum having the same first and last names and finding out their first name after one of them gets lynched, then targeting townies with the same first name. I need to think about this some more, but wanted to throw out some possibilities.

[zuma]

Another thought:

If there is some sort of pattern to first names (i.e. 7 pairs + a triple, or maybe 5 triples + a pair), scum might be able to eliminate some possibilities when it comes to determining who would be able to investigate them, or at least improve their odds.

Imagine we do a name claim, (again for the sake of argument assume there are 13 town and 4 scum), and they see 5 Johns, 5 Marys, 2 Richards and 2 Tracys. If I'm scum I'm going after the Richards and Tracys.

[zuma]

Forgive my math in the above example, that added up to 14, but you get the idea.

[gnarlycharlie]

Originally Posted by Mrs McGinty

Have I not? I don't want to get all old timey and such, but, years back, I did play in games with a few of you guys (at Straight Dope under this name, and at the org under 'Winston Hughes'), so it's possible this isn't our first time. Anyhows, I thank you for your welcome.

p.s. In case anyone is waiting for me to reveal my true name, it's Beau. But you all can call me Mr Lockes.

ah, you have had the pleasure and honor then.


so he or she can have the honor and pleasure.

Originally Posted by Scáthach

I was rereading the rules to see if scum have more of an advantage than town if they know names and this line is really confusing me. What investigation could be taking place here? Town get alignment results, but scum know alignment already? And all the roles are the same?

this is bugging me too. i reckon scum get name results since alignment results don't make sense. i agree that our names are very important in the game. so i am more willing to have a limited claim rather than a full one. what that entails i'm not sure yet.

Originally Posted by TexCat

Perhaps we should just start with how many letters are in our names and see what we get. If it turns out that we all have 5 letter names, then we can go around again with another bit of info.

The point is to make our investigations more productive, right? If my name has 5 letters, it's pointless for me to investigate anyone with a 4 letter name. If there are only 3 players that have 5 letter names, we don't need to publicly state the names, we can just investigate all 3 pretty quickly.

We will also need to coordinate who is investigating who so that we try not to interfere with each other. This may make it easy for scum to interfere with one investigation, but it also means that a large number of investigations will go through.

this type of limited claim seems okay.

[Swammerdami]

I've nothing against random.org per se, but best is for a player likely to be Town to make the list, deliberately putting people likely to be Scum near the top of the list. (Of course, we have VERY little to go on right now.)

I was suspicious when Mahaloth volunteered a list -- maybe he puts him and his scum buddies near the bottom of the list? But he's usually quiet when scum, I think, so maybe he's OK this game.

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Visor & Mrs MG anything to add to your first rattle out of the box votes on Swammi?

I was surprised too, but Mrs. MG reveal as Winston Hughes gives a possible clue. Visor, Winston and I are in a Mafia game on another board where I recently registered as Swammerdami. (Winston and Visor are dead in that game, while I'm still alive as of Night Four.)

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Heterometrus swammerdami

~~snipped~~

I was surprised too, but Mrs. MG reveal as Winston Hughes gives a possible clue. Visor, Winston and I are in a Mafia game on another board where I recently registered as Swammerdami. (Winston and Visor are dead in that game, while I'm still alive as of Night Four.)

that is uncomfortably Meta to me

[LightFoot]

what did that mean? well previous or current game references in a new game make me uncomfortable-

[zuma]

Originally Posted by Heterometrus swammerdami

I've nothing against random.org per se, but best is for a player likely to be Town to make the list, deliberately putting people likely to be Scum near the top of the list. (Of course, we have VERY little to go on right now.)

I don't think we can say with any measure of confidence that a particular person is "likely to be town" on day 1, hence it would be better to use a seed that nobody in the game has any control over. That's the only way to be sure that scum have no influence on the ordering of the list.

[Visorslash]

Mostly random vote. First player I remembered off the list. I disagree with a full claim, and am willing to go along with a partial claim. I don't believe in giving the scum any more.info then we have to, and I certainly don't believe in the reliance of detectives.

I don't like bufftabbys neither here nor there noncommital and I like Zuma Zumas thought stream

[Visorslash]

I think people can make reads d1. Im m asking a read that you are town

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

Mostly random vote. First player I remembered off the list. I disagree with a full claim, and am willing to go along with a partial claim. I don't believe in giving the scum any more.info then we have to, and I certainly don't believe in the reliance of detectives.

I don't like bufftabbys neither here nor there noncommital and I like Zuma Zumas thought stream

This comment makes some sense but your vote doesn't

[LightFoot]

Rereading

Originally Posted by BillMc

included for completion -hidden for brevity--

Likewise, a surname claim doesn't yield much either, as town would be guessing and scum would be lying.

At this point, all I can think of would be for everyone to state a first name and last name.

I don't follow this. Town doesn't know what their last name is - and Scum is not going to admit they do know

Then upon death, we can compare the claim with reality to narrow down the scum pool. e.g. if I claimed Barney Rubble, and the first death was Barney Dinosaur (yeah!) then you know that I was truthful about my first name. But as with Guiri's suggestion, if scum don't claim first, they can just claim the same name. So not a great idea either.
Of course, Newark could be a secret enclave of iceland, and everyone is carl carlson or carla carlsdottir :-)

yep so....now what?

[Swammerdami]

Originally Posted by zuma

... hence it would be better to use a seed that nobody in the game has any control over. That's the only way to be sure that scum have no influence on the ordering of the list.

For example, at 3 PM agree to use NYSE volume, then at 4 PM feed that volume as seed into a random generator? I agree that's a good idea.

BUT, does random.org allow users to supply seeds? I'd be happy to provide a (testable!) Javascript to do something like that, if you wish.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Scáthach

Like what results would they get? Alignment? Or is it just that by the very fact of getting results or not (whatever the results are) they can check if someone has the same name as them?

the way I read it you will no get results IF your names do not match OR someone else investigated that player

[Visorslash]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

This comment makes some sense but your vote doesn't

It's the first post first vote it literally cannot be based on anything

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Giraffe

I think most experienced game mods are not going to set up a game that can be so easily solved with a mass claim. (And as an aside, let's note that the name of the game is "A Wizard's True Name", implying that the name information is valuable.)

Excellent point.

Originally Posted by Giraffe

I'm also a bit suspicious of a player coming out of the gate and pushing for a mass claim so quickly: if scum do have a reason to want Town's name info, Bill's post is a good way to try to get it.

Vote BillMc

Did you mean to vote me? Or Swammi?

[bufftabby]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

this is bugging me too. i reckon scum get name results since alignment results don't make sense. i agree that our names are very important in the game. so i am more willing to have a limited claim rather than a full one. what that entails i'm not sure yet

I think this is a really good point. We seem to have a really open setup here, so what else would a scum investigation reveal other than names? With that being the case, a full name claim would basically be handing scum half the info that they would otherwise have to investigate for. I think a limited claim is the way to go, possibly using the number of letters in our name and revealing what one of those letters is, as was mentioned upthread.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Vote Counting Robot

Swammerdami (2): Visorslash (2), Mrs McGinty (3)
Chaos (1): gnarlycharlie (67)
Billmc (1): Giraffe (38)[43], Giraffe (45)
Scathach (0): Giraffe (43)[45]
Mrs Mcginty (0): gnarlycharlie (14)[67]

If you want, you can paste this as well:

Voting History:
post #2: Visorslash voted Swammerdami
post #3: Mrs McGinty voted Swammerdami
post #14: gnarlycharlie voted Mrs Mcginty
post #38: Giraffe voted Billmc
post #43: Giraffe unvoted All
post #43: Giraffe voted Scathach
post #45: Giraffe unvoted All
post #45: Giraffe voted Billmc
post #67: gnarlycharlie unvoted Mrs Mcginty
post #67: gnarlycharlie voted Chaos


posting to see


weekends are - as a rule- quiet. So Monday will be a flurry - in all likelyhood

[LightFoot]

Are any of the above votes serious?
Giraffe has at least given some reason but flitting like a bug from flower to flower and back

[zuma]

Originally Posted by Heterometrus swammerdami

BUT, does random.org allow users to supply seeds?

Yes. https://www.random.org/lists/?mode=advanced

I'm still not sold on even a #of letters claim yet, but I propose we generate the random list today, whether or not we eventually use it, because if we do we'd probably need to start soon as the Day ends monday.

Markets are closed on weekends, so how about generating the seed using the total points from the earliest NBA game today, which is 7 p.m. EST, Memphis at New Orleans.

[Chaos]

I don't quite have the time right now to analyze, this game is somewhat more complex than I expected. Nevertheless I want to make a few remarks on what I've read so far.

- I can agree with doing number of letters in a name, but not giving one or more letters of it. Players with shorter names will have to give more information that way than other players, and might make mafia guesses for names easier at some point.
- We really need to set up some pattern to control all investigations from this day phase on. As town our only tool in a game like this is working together hard and trying to find the odd one out. Without the possible outs of 'oh lol but I investigated someone else'.
- I highly doubt all mafia or town have the same first/last name, but I don't think it's as clear cut as a certain amount of pairs and a triplet.
- I think that at this point we should mostly pay attention to people who try to flow with the mechanics talk not as a way to figure out the game per se, but more fading into the background. Scum usually do that anyway but in this environment it works even better than normally.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by Heterometrus swammerdami

I've nothing against random.org per se, but best is for a player likely to be Town to make the list, deliberately putting people likely to be Scum near the top of the list. (Of course, we have VERY little to go on right now.)

I was suspicious when Mahaloth volunteered a list -- maybe he puts him and his scum buddies near the bottom of the list? But he's usually quiet when scum, I think, so maybe he's OK this game.

Best is for a player likely to be Town to make the list? Do ya' think?

However, we have zippo idea who is Town and the point was to do this on day 1 of Day 1, which has obviously not happened. I was trying to kick out a list because we usually don't have the balls to actually go through with an early claim. I figured I'd push it one step further, but we obviously still couldn't get it together.

I'm not usually quiet when scum. I play more or less the same no matter what. When I'm scum, I've even forgotten about it during Day before.

[LightFoot]

Guiri you are generally good at asking specific questions

It strikes me that at the beginning of the Day ( with two naked votes on board) your comment was Swammi's a popular chap this morning!
When I saw the 2 naked votes my first thought was " what? where is that from?"


Your response gave me pause-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

to be fair/balanced I think every player has a name twin.
settng up an un investigatible player seems off (unless there is 3P in the mix I suppose)

Nice mechanic to get the game rolling Mod.
----------------

Bare bones this is a vanilla game - Scum has NK Town has votes- if by chance an investigation bears fruit= bonus- but at this point that is a crap shoot - odds to the house= firsts may match-lasts may match- but a first & last match will be lucky- and I still think a name claim would help Scum as stated previously



for doing pretty much what they posted should not be done

If my buckets have holes tell me where-

[BillMc]

Originally Posted by guiri

What's the advantage? Sure, one of the scum could day-kill a single town player, and cancel their vote that Day, but, since the killer is public, that would be a one-for-one exchange which is pretty great for Town.

If scum knows everyone's first name, then it narrows down their search.

Remember, for an investigation to succeed, the investigator and target must have the same first+last name pair. So the scum already now 3 or 4 last names that exist, and that town would have, plus all the first names, that along with death reveals would enable them to work out the pairings quicker than town. So if one of the scum is up for the lynch, they would have a good chance at pulling off the day kill.

But look at it another way, there must be at least one townie each with with the same name as a scum (e.g. a-A, b-B, c-C, d-D). if that townie (say 'b') is killed, then there is no way for town to investigate the 'B' - that gives scum a huge advantage. So that would seem to suggest that there could be multiple townies with the same name.

Originally Posted by Giraffe

I don't think this is necessarily true. The only thing I think we know for sure is that there will be multiple people who have the same first and last name, otherwise the investigative powers would be pointless. There could be seven pairs of (first name, last name) with no overlap in between. This essentially gives every scum their own Cop, although the fact that we have an odd number of players could give scum an uninvestigateable player.

But there are a number of other possibilities, e.g. what if the scum all have the same last name?

So you disagree with my hypothesis that there may be folk with the same first name and different last name, or vice versa.....and then you suggest it as another hypothesis of your own?

Originally Posted by Giraffe

In that case, only the Town player(s) with that last name is actually a Cop and the rest are useless, but Town wouldn't know which player it was.

If that were the case, I would be out to lynch the mod for lying about this being an all power game.

Originally Posted by Giraffe

In this scenario, a name claim is a bad idea for Town: we'd be helping scum kill our Cop without our knowing it and giving them a free Day kill at some point.

Wow you are stating what I have already said.

Originally Posted by Giraffe

I'm also a bit suspicious of a player coming out of the gate and pushing for a mass claim so quickly: if scum do have a reason to want Town's name info, Bill's post is a good way to try to get it.

Really? I did not push for a mass claim - I laid out options based on Guiri's and Swammi's prior posts about it.

Sounds like you a throwing giraffe dung and just hoping it sticks somewhere.

[Mrs McGinty]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Visor & Mrs MG anything to add to your first rattle out of the box votes on Swammi?

Usually ‘is name has multiple variations of spelling and contraction in game- and yet you both used the exact same moniker?

I just copied what Visorslash wrote, letter for letter. Why did I do it? Partly laziness. It was a throwaway vote to announce my presence, most likely to end up either changed or irrelevant, so it didn't really matter who it was aimed at. It was also partly a nod to Visor, who I know from elsewhere, and whose main aim for this game is probably to avoid all interaction with me, being as I got him killed in the last two games we played together.

Incidentally, when I looked at the player list later on, I had a moment where I thought Swammi wasn't in the game, not realising that the part of his name I knew was half a mile over to the right.

[zuma]

I'm of the opinion now that we should not do any sort of name claim. I don't see much of an advantage in doing it, and it can't realistically be done in an organized fashion. I do think it is vital that we try to organize the investigations though. It would be a shame if it turned into a clusterfuck where we were all blocking each others' investigations.

[zuma]

ToNight I will be investigating Mahaloth. Reason: first on the player list.

I encourage everyone to post who they plan to investigate so we can avoid cancelling each others' investigations.

[zuma]

reason: Lynch the Lurker

[Visorslash]

I forgot you were ginty Actually. Winston Hughes is a much nicer name.

I disagree with giraffe saying mass claim calling is suspicious
It's is more likely to be town as it is a riskier manoeuvre

[Mrs McGinty]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

I forgot you were ginty Actually.

Are you planning to get an alternative to your phone, or are we stuck with these random acts of syntactic weirdness for the foreseeable? :P

[Visorslash]

Originally Posted by Mrs McGinty

Are you planning to get an alternative to your phone, or are we stuck with these random acts of syntactic weirdness for the foreseeable? :P

I'll have internet on tuesday, salvation is planned

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

I forgot you were ginty Actually. Winston Hughes is a much nicer name.

I disagree with giraffe saying mass claim calling is suspicious
It's is more likely to be town as it is a riskier manoeuvre

Scum would likely benefit from a mass claim ( by my maths) so I guess I don't see your point.

[TexCat]

I'm not following your maths, Lightfoot. I think we need to claim enough to make intelligent investigations. And I think town will benefit way more than scum by investigations that succeed.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by TexCat

I'm not following your maths, Lightfoot. I think we need to claim enough to make intelligent investigations. And I think town will benefit way more than scum by investigations that succeed.

Most of what I have posted this Day is related to my thoughts on the matter- If my theories have holes tell me where they are in your opinion.

[Giraffe]

Originally Posted by BillMc

So you disagree with my hypothesis that there may be folk with the same first name and different last name, or vice versa.....and then you suggest it as another hypothesis of your own?

I disagreed with the sentence of yours I quoted:

Since we need both names, that suggests that there will be folk with the same first name but different surname, and vice versa. So the number of unique names will be smaller.

Because I could see a scenario where first and last name pairs were unique and not shared, so we shouldn't assume anything without considering all the possibilities. I then went on to speculate about different distributions of names and how they would impact the outcome of a mass claim. What's wrong with that, exactly? I didn't think your sentence was something we could assume to be true for sure, but neither did I say it was impossible.

If that were the case, I would be out to lynch the mod for lying about this being an all power game.

To be clear, I meant there would effectively be one Cop in the sense of being able to catch scum. As Scathach later pointed out, the others would still be able to clear Townies in that scenario, making my statement incorrect, as clearing Townies will also help catch scum.

Really? I did not push for a mass claim - I laid out options based on Guiri's and Swammi's prior posts about it.

That's true: I had the vibe you were enthusiastic about the idea, but rereading it you don't explicitly say we should claim. However, that is what I think a scum player who wanted a mass claim would do: pick up the ball and run with it as soon as it's first mentioned to try to help the idea gain momentum, while maintaining plausible deniability about it not being their idea.

Sounds like you a throwing giraffe dung and just hoping it sticks somewhere.

That's kind of the game, isn't it? Why are you so defensive about being probed for your posts or picking up a singleton vote? I'm not trying to throw this back at you, I'm honestly surprised. I think of you as the sanguine Jedi of Mafia, where you sit back and let everyone get all worked up and then calmly point out three of the four scum. I wouldn't expect many players to get huffy about a weak case on Day one, but especially not you. Which pings me, to be honest.

[Swammerdami]

I still think partial claims are a good idea; if we can't agree on a claim order, let's go in any order.

My name is very short.

Unless your first name is also very short, don't investigate me.

[Scáthach]

Originally Posted by Heterometrus swammerdami

I still think partial claims are a good idea; if we can't agree on a claim order, let's go in any order.

My name is very short.

Unless your first name is also very short, don't investigate me.

Ok I'll bite. My name is also very short - I'll investigate swammerdami tonight.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk