Yeetmas 4 - Day 1 - Let's "Wrap" together, OK?

[Mendie Taoma]

Originally Posted by Halfrize

If pizza agrees to my plan, it must be good.

Also realistically only the vig can decide what they want to do, regardless of what we are all saying. We can only provide input and be heard.

We got a live one here folx.

Let's not mess it up.

Unless Halfrize is already serving wine.

Unrelated

Bashorian

I'm going to assume no further context will be given on your Guiri Skeezix vote, and whatever the We three Wees of orient were.

[mikomiya]

Most of the stuff so far seems to be generic mechanical talk that, frankly, just goes in one ear and out the other for me. I'm sure everyone posting about it believes what they are saying is best but I think they are saying that no matter what their alignment is so I can't really gain much insight to anything yet.

The only mildly alignment indicative comment I've seen so far is from Mendie whose unvote due to joke votes in games with lots of newbies being unhelpful strikes me as more likely to be genuine than manufactured. I think that because it wasn't in response to anybody calling them out for it but rather a thing they noticed and fixed on their own.

[raventhief]

Hello lovelies! I have my PM.

[raventhief]

At the end of the capital d Day, you're hanging out with your friends, thinking about who is active especially squirrelly until everyone decides who has to die. Don't take it personally if you get voted (or shot) off.

It's fun! Hang like and lie to each other until things get murderous.

[A Poor Shepherd Boy]

Originally Posted by raventhief

At the end of the capital d Day, you're hanging out with your friends, thinking about who is active especially squirrelly until everyone decides who has to die. Don't take it personally if you get voted (or shot) off.

It's fun! Hang like and lie to each other until things get murderous.

I have been trying for years to learn how not to take it personally.

[Renata]

Originally Posted by JackieLikesVariety

I got my PM.

not sure what to do with the info, however.

Vote out the Christmas humbugs?

Got my PM, only two days late which is about average. (Not Mahaloth's fault, mine.)

[raventhief]

Originally Posted by A Poor Shepherd Boy

I have been trying for years to learn how not to take it personally.

Yeah ... That's a hard one to learn.

[Renata]

If anybody gives me a gun I'm going to use it. I have ten percent chance of hitting another town power, 5 percent of hitting specifically the town cop. As opposed to 30 percent chance of hitting one of the scum teams and ten percent of taking out specifically one of the godfathers, against whom the cop is worse than useless.

[Renata]

I just remembered the doctors. So twenty percent roughly for the scum teams.

[A Poor Shepherd Boy]

Originally Posted by Renata

I just remembered the doctors. So twenty percent roughly for the scum teams.

Right. But if the vig shoots someone, and they do not die, it tells nearly the same information, doesn't it?

[Halfrize]

Originally Posted by A Poor Shepherd Boy

Right. But if the vig shoots someone, and they do not die, it tells nearly the same information, doesn't it?

Feels like it could be hard to tell something like this without a doc claim though. Cause the doc could really save whomever they want.

[Halfrize]

Originally Posted by Mendie Taoma

We got a live one here folx.

Let's not mess it up.

Unless Halfrize is already serving wine.

Should I start to find wine to swallow? I'm either doing something right, or I'm doing something completely wrong and I can't tell which of the two i am doing.

[A Poor Shepherd Boy]

Originally Posted by Halfrize

Feels like it could be hard to tell something like this without a doc claim though. Cause the doc could really save whomever they want.

The vig can kill whomever they want, and the Doc can protect whomever. But hopefully there are reasons for both such that Town is not so polarized.

[Mendie Taoma]

Originally Posted by Halfrize

Should I start to find wine to swallow? I'm either doing something right, or I'm doing something completely wrong and I can't tell which of the two i am doing.

" Wine " ::

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by Halfrize

Feels like it could be hard to tell something like this without a doc claim though. Cause the doc could really save whomever they want.

Is this a concern you really have? It didn't cross my mind that a vig and a doctor would be targeting within the same pool of people.

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by A Poor Shepherd Boy

I have been trying for years to learn how not to take it personally.

I usually assume my dry sense of humor doesn't translate to text whenever people vote me out of something but part of me also takes it personal a little bit

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by Mendie Taoma

" Wine " ::

Good choice! One of my favorite movies ever

[Bashorian Clement]

Embrace the WIFOM.

[Kaiveran]

Yeah, lot of unexpected BS on my end. Not gonna be on the ball for a while.

Still, I've skimmed some of the strategic discussion (and thoroughly read the info/rules thread) so I feel there's no harm in coming out with it outright.
I am the Cop.

Also want to give props to @Mahaloth real quick, for being based af and finally bringing the "Vengelimination" mechanic to life. Tried a couple of times to run something similar on MU, but no luck.

[Kaiveran]

Even with Crouching Cop, Hidden Doctor potentially in play for a while, we still gotta work for our meal, so to speak

Both teams have Godfathers, so I could only ever catch 2/3 of the scum in the game. Vigilante has direct counter in the scum Docs, so a missed shot probably indicates a protected scum partner (since town Doc would be on me), but then the vigi would have to either claim a failed kill, or try to hard push for their target's death without it, and both can result in their swift death. And there's always the chance that an active Doc decides to whyfoam it up and protect the backup instead of the GF, to play against whatever they think is the biggest threat.

But I run the risk of retreading now-old ground, so I'll come back when I can actually, y;know, read and respond to things.

[Bashorian Clement]

Well barring a counterclaim Kaiveran goes to the top of the town pile.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Originally Posted by Mendie Taoma

We got a live one here folx.

Let's not mess it up.

Unless Halfrize is already serving wine.

Why are you being performative in this post?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Originally Posted by mikomiya

Most of the stuff so far seems to be generic mechanical talk that, frankly, just goes in one ear and out the other for me. I'm sure everyone posting about it believes what they are saying is best but I think they are saying that no matter what their alignment is so I can't really gain much insight to anything yet.

The only mildly alignment indicative comment I've seen so far is from Mendie whose unvote due to joke votes in games with lots of newbies being unhelpful strikes me as more likely to be genuine than manufactured. I think that because it wasn't in response to anybody calling them out for it but rather a thing they noticed and fixed on their own.

I like this take whether it ends up being true or not, because it reads like a genuine attempt at solving. "Like" meaning I think it comes from villagers more often.

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Red Skeezix

I mean it stinks when a vig hits a power role, but it's going to happen. It's not the end of the world, we don't need power roles to win this game. But asking the vig never to shoot except under very narrow circumstances (settling a false claim, or only if you're 100% sure their scum) is leaving information unexposed. By that same logic we should only wrap people who we are 100% sure are scum, which is nonsense. And the idea that team killing is the antithesis of team play is equally nonsense. We don't win if we don't risk team killing. We don't win if we don't generate information, and not making plays to generate more reliable information is wasting agency. So, like i said, i wouldn't shoot indiscriminately, but i would soundly ignore any advice that says don't shoot unless you are 100% certain it's scum.

That's a very reasonable stance.

This exchange feels weird:

Originally Posted by Halfrize

Couldn't we also give our input on who the vig should shoot during the day? Like the vig has the same information that we have. Perhaps vig needs to be a bit more careful as to not try to shoot people that act like the cop, but it is a very similar kp to the vote except that one person is in charge of it.

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

That is a great idea, and I endorse it wholeheartedly.

This is all I saw, and just +1 to this. A lot.

Meeko called it out here:

Originally Posted by Mendie Taoma

This strikes me as "leashing the vig". I was all set to explain the concept of leashing the vig, and then explain all the pitfalls, and setbacks.

And then I see no less than Pizza in here, championing it.

Or, was this your "I'm not even town" affected motivation?

I mean, I can expect the newcomer to .... discover and put forward plans to leash.

I just don't get where and how Pizza agrees to it out of hand.

Originally Posted by Halfrize

If pizza agrees to my plan, it must be good.

Also realistically only the vig can decide what they want to do, regardless of what we are all saying. We can only provide input and be heard.

Pizza's cheerleading just feels out of place, the suggestion is fine, and common, initial thought is snuggling or spotlighting townie behavior in a scum buddy, not something I would expect so blatantly from ATPG but it pings enough.

Originally Posted by Dizzymrslizzy

#SorryNotSorry. I would have taken that shot again if I had the chance 9/10 times.

Fair enough.

[Renata]

For starters, however mendie describes it, what Halfrize proposed and Pizza agreed to is not "leashing the vig". There's no suggestion that the vig needs to be bound by what the town consensus is.

So I'm not really getting guiri's objection to Pizza specifically here. The only person who mentioned typing up the vig is mendie.

[Renata]

Oh nevermind the objection is to the cheerleading. Which, fine. But I still don't get why that's getting conflated with mendie "calling out" Pizza, because the callout is unwarranted.

[Bashorian Clement]

Townie

Kaiveran -- strong town claimed cop
TexCat -- slightly town for plan proposal
Renata -- lean town for pointing out Halfrize, Pizza, Mendie, guiri leash the vig moment, but I'm not sure about the whole thing yet, I need to think about it. In fact I'm not sure I even lean town on renata for this as I type this.
Pleonast -- maybe lean town for partial claim but in a handful of posts just that one game-specific play

Null

Everyone not mentioned above or below

Scummy

RedSkeezix -- way too many "wes" in the vig analysis, like an overcompensating amount

This is off the top of my head -- what I remember.

If Renata is correct, that dumps three players into scum range, Mendie, guiri, halfrize and Pizza. Is that the implication Renata? But no Renata is right that halfrize didn't really propose leashing the vig.

[Bashorian Clement]

It may just be a semantics thing I guess.

[Bashorian Clement]

I want to hear guiri on Renata's posts.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by Vote Counting Robot

Askthepizzaguy (2): Halfrize (24), guiri (74)
Red Skeezix (1): Bashorian Clement (30)
Guiri (0): Bashorian Clement (7)[30]
Kaiveran (0): Mendie Taoma (4)[33]

Yep, that's where it is right now.

[Burma Shave]

As a friendly welcome
To this Mafia society
I think it's time to

[Mendie Taoma]

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

Yeah, lot of unexpected BS on my end. Not gonna be on the ball for a while.

Still, I've skimmed some of the strategic discussion (and thoroughly read the info/rules thread) so I feel there's no harm in coming out with it outright.
I am the Cop.

Also want to give props to @Mahaloth real quick, for being based af and finally bringing the "Vengelimination" mechanic to life. Tried a couple of times to run something similar on MU, but no luck.

Until proven otherwise, I am 1000% glad for my unvote now.

Meta wise, I'm glad Kai finally pulled Town, and power town, at that.

[Mendie Taoma]

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Why are you being performative in this post?

Well. That post was before a cop claim. I'm not disputing the cop claim.

Beyond that, if we both need to be clearer in what we are attempting here, you would have me at a disadvantage.

Respectfully, call me out on whatever you think you have me on, plainly, or at least elaborate.

[Mendie Taoma]

Originally Posted by guiri

That's a very reasonable stance.

This exchange feels weird:


Meeko called it out here:


Pizza's cheerleading just feels out of place, the suggestion is fine, and common, initial thought is snuggling or spotlighting townie behavior in a scum buddy, not something I would expect so blatantly from ATPG but it pings enough.

Fair enough.

Yay! i did a thing!

As Meeko.

Legit. Don't Sweat It. I get the rationale for calling me Meeko. I'm still working through my name and pronouns, IRL, and even what I want to go by, IRL. IRL I feel like I am light years away from asking or even wanting "Mendie" and She / Her. Seriously. Don't sweat it.

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Renata

Oh nevermind the objection is to the cheerleading. Which, fine. But I still don't get why that's getting conflated with mendie "calling out" Pizza, because the callout is unwarranted.

It was Mendie’s statement that Pizza was “championing” Halfeize’s suggestion that I was pointing to.

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by guiri

It was Mendie’s statement that Pizza was “championing” Halfeize’s suggestion that I was pointing to.

To take your worldview a step further, do you think if AskThePizzaGuy is mafia that the Championing of Halfeize's idea makes them unaligned? With it being such a blatant signal boosting and such tiny mafia teams of 3 players each, I would imagine they wouldn't tie themselves together so quickly. Being new here though I'm not sure if that type of thing is uncommon or not.

[Renata]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

Townie

Kaiveran -- strong town claimed cop
TexCat -- slightly town for plan proposal
Renata -- lean town for pointing out Halfrize, Pizza, Mendie, guiri leash the vig moment, but I'm not sure about the whole thing yet, I need to think about it. In fact I'm not sure I even lean town on renata for this as I type this.
Pleonast -- maybe lean town for partial claim but in a handful of posts just that one game-specific play

Null

Everyone not mentioned above or below

Scummy

RedSkeezix -- way too many "wes" in the vig analysis, like an overcompensating amount

This is off the top of my head -- what I remember.

If Renata is correct, that dumps three players into scum range, Mendie, guiri, halfrize and Pizza. Is that the implication Renata? But no Renata is right that halfrize didn't really propose leashing the vig.

No, it isn't. After reading Guiri's latest post I think Guiri might have misunderstood Mendie who misunderstood Halfrize. But none of that is AI and I don't think the vig discussion itself is either.

Pizza's enthusiasm? Maybe, but it's like nothing. I'd never try to read him off of so little.

I don't think Pizza's point against Mendie is a good one. For someone else maybe but not for her.

[Renata]

Originally Posted by mikomiya

To take your worldview a step further, do you think if AskThePizzaGuy is mafia that the Championing of Halfeize's idea makes them unaligned? With it being such a blatant signal boosting and such tiny mafia teams of 3 players each, I would imagine they wouldn't tie themselves together so quickly. Being new here though I'm not sure if that type of thing is uncommon or not.

Better odds than even I guess? It's not much.

This probably goes without saying but people also need to remember this is a multiball game. Everybody's scum-hunting on some level so a lot of scum reads are not going to work.

[guiri]

Originally Posted by mikomiya

To take your worldview a step further, do you think if AskThePizzaGuy is mafia that the Championing of Halfeize's idea makes them unaligned? With it being such a blatant signal boosting and such tiny mafia teams of 3 players each, I would imagine they wouldn't tie themselves together so quickly. Being new here though I'm not sure if that type of thing is uncommon or not.

I gave the two possibilities, pizza snuggling to a non-partner, or championing a colleague who made a decent pro-town suggestion and wanted everyone else to be sure to notice how pro-town it was.

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by Renata

Better odds than even I guess? It's not much.

This probably goes without saying but people also need to remember this is a multiball game. Everybody's scum-hunting on some level so a lot of scum reads are not going to work.

I'm not so sure I agree with this. Even in multiball, the mafia still have different information and goals than the town. Good scumhunting techniques transcend setups because they rely on picking up on those differences in info/goals.

For instance, I'm trying to discern if Guiri has the goal of putting pieces of a puzzle together with their comments on AskThePizzaGuy. Was it just a surface level and flat shading of a player where the goal is to increase suspicion on a player they aren't teamed with or if they are a town member who is making an observation about a player before then seeing what that observation could mean for other players.

The follow up to my question saying it could be either, with reasons, doesn't point me in either direction yet. But being able to get inside the thought processes of players and see the big picture in their mind helps sort people as we progress and I think that will be true even in a multiball setup.

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

Townie

Kaiveran -- strong town claimed cop
TexCat -- slightly town for plan proposal
Renata -- lean town for pointing out Halfrize, Pizza, Mendie, guiri leash the vig moment, but I'm not sure about the whole thing yet, I need to think about it. In fact I'm not sure I even lean town on renata for this as I type this.
Pleonast -- maybe lean town for partial claim but in a handful of posts just that one game-specific play

Null

Everyone not mentioned above or below

Scummy

RedSkeezix -- way too many "wes" in the vig analysis, like an overcompensating amount

This is off the top of my head -- what I remember.

If Renata is correct, that dumps three players into scum range, Mendie, guiri, halfrize and Pizza. Is that the implication Renata? But no Renata is right that halfrize didn't really propose leashing the vig.

I'm not sure I understand what "wes" means. Could you explain for me please?

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I like this take whether it ends up being true or not, because it reads like a genuine attempt at solving. "Like" meaning I think it comes from villagers more often.

Do you have a lean on "whether it ends up being true or not"? While I appreciate a town lean, I'm more concerned with getting my results correct than getting head pats for my process.

[Renata]

Originally Posted by mikomiya

I'm not so sure I agree with this. Even in multiball, the mafia still have different information and goals than the town. Good scumhunting techniques transcend setups because they rely on picking up on those differences in info/goals.

For instance, I'm trying to discern if Guiri has the goal of putting pieces of a puzzle together with their comments on AskThePizzaGuy. Was it just a surface level and flat shading of a player where the goal is to increase suspicion on a player they aren't teamed with or if they are a town member who is making an observation about a player before then seeing what that observation could mean for other players.

The follow up to my question saying it could be either, with reasons, doesn't point me in either direction yet. But being able to get inside the thought processes of players and see the big picture in their mind helps sort people as we progress and I think that will be true even in a multiball setup.

You don't disagree with me. I'm arguing that a lot of scum tells won't work. You're arguing that some will.

The good thing about multiball and this one in particular is that there's a lot of KP out there, so if we're lucky, the mafia will hit each other/the vig will hit and then we can look into motivations in an informed way.

The stuff that won't work is tells along the lines of "you can tell this player doesn't really believe their scum reads".

[Renata]

Like for instance, if this was a single team game I'd have you (mikomiya) halfway to a solid town read already for the level of your interest in thinking about other players, but in this game that's not possible.

[mikomiya]

Originally Posted by Renata

You don't disagree with me. I'm arguing that a lot of scum tells won't work. You're arguing that some will.

The good thing about multiball and this one in particular is that there's a lot of KP out there, so if we're lucky, the mafia will hit each other/the vig will hit and then we can look into motivations in an informed way.

The stuff that won't work is tells along the lines of "you can tell this player doesn't really believe their scum reads".

I might have just misunderstood your comment. It read to me like you were floating the idea of it being pointless to try and really scumhunt normally because a multiball set up makes it difficult. I was providing a take that we can certainly still figure it out. If I misunderstood, that is my mistake.

Here's hoping for some scum on scum violence

[Renata]

No, I'm just focusing on the negatives a little bit. My last multiball experience was bad. Lock towned a wolf partly due to misunderstanding mechanics and partly because he was solving well.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Originally Posted by Renata

For starters, however mendie describes it, what Halfrize proposed and Pizza agreed to is not "leashing the vig". There's no suggestion that the vig needs to be bound by what the town consensus is.

So I'm not really getting guiri's objection to Pizza specifically here. The only person who mentioned typing up the vig is mendie.

Vote: Guiri

opportunistic scumbag deliberately reading nonsense into what I posted.

You can die day one, bro. I haven't seen a wolfier day one post in dozens of games.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

Townie

Kaiveran -- strong town claimed cop

I guess I will pretend to believe that claim, but Kai's also read my guide.

He's shielding the real cop, but when the real cop dies, do not yeet Kaiveran.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

Well barring a counterclaim Kaiveran goes to the top of the town pile.

And I will change my doctor suggestion to Kaiveran.

Because that sounds like a great idea to me.

[Dizzymrslizzy]

Yes elves will be searching for Maria’s and vice versa, so yes scum hunting will be a lot harder

But I think there will be holes in their arguments etc etc. depending on the wolf some are always slippery, but we have to try.