Felt vs. MC: Mafia Night 1 Thread

[Trepa Mayfield]

The background music suddenly doubles back and forth upon itself, as though it, too, had been caught up in the time manipulation.

Red Skeezix, who had been previously been involved in the town's discussion, had moved over to the side, staring intently. As the crowd argued, he stayed. Even as they began to advance on him, prepared to kill, he did not look up. BillMC, holding a cuckoo clock with intent to kill, finally asked him what he saw.

"'Tis marvelous!" Skeez replied. "I see a large duck, standing near a dog, and a small furry man, and a few other small people, and they all had stars on their bellies!"

The others simply looked askance, not bothering to engage the crazy man before wailing on him.

Red Skeezix, who was Trace (Town Tracker), is dead.

Night 1 has started, and will end on Tuesday, February 22 at 10:00 PM MDT provided I am there to end it. Send your Night actions via PM, as usual.

[Special Ed]

I must be able to travel through time. I predicted that Red would be able to track in the past, though I didn't realize it would go all the way back to the past game.

[Zeener Diode]

Dammit.

[Romanic]

Meh.

[Idle Thoughts]

Boo.

[Zeener Diode]

This post isn't meant to be anything but fluff but I'm quoting this from the Day Thread. I read it and nearly spewed my tea over my keyboard.

i mean really if you are going to poke a lurker poke fracking bob (whom i don't really consider a lurker). but poking ed? jeebus if the kraken is sleeping don't wake his ass up.

And then there's Ulla. I can tell if she's propping me or thumping me. Maybe both. Either way she's beautiful.

What if Zeener made a (to you) sound vote early in the game? Would you then vote him for change in playstyle as well

[Zeener Diode]

NEAT: "Can" = "can't."

[Giraffe]

Ah, nutsack.

And I wish I'd been here to see Idle's point about saving a one-off vote instead of letting it go to waste, I'd have totally done that once it was obvious my vote target wasn't getting lynched toDay.

[Total Ulla]

Thanks, Zeener - I have to say I did giggle when I wrote that

From the Rules:

3. During the Night, players tend to chat about non-game stuff, though they can discuss strategy. The Scum, meanwhile, get to kill someone off in secret, which is decided on in a secret area where they can talk.

Can we say anything in the Night about the game???

[Trepa Mayfield]

Originally Posted by Total Ulla

Thanks, Zeener - I have to say I did giggle when I wrote that

From the Rules:

3. During the Night, players tend to chat about non-game stuff, though they can discuss strategy. The Scum, meanwhile, get to kill someone off in secret, which is decided on in a secret area where they can talk.

Can we say anything in the Night about the game???

"Strategy" includes strategy about the game, so yes.

[Total Ulla]

I would like it to be noted that ending a Day without a vote in this game seems like an awful waste.

So I might re-view my view on players banking their votes until they can figure out where to place it.
In fact we should all bank the vote of the Day in our first post to avoid throwing it away IMO.

Also really sorry for being a sleep when Red claimed. Would it have changed my mind and my vote? I honestly don't know because I read the Night before reading the Day.

[BillMc]

ah well

[Red Skeezix]

Booooo! Well at least FM was awesome. GO TOWN!

[BobArrgh]

Frack on losing the Town Tracker.

[SisterCoyote]

Bugger. And sorry I didn't make it back in time to vote.

[Romola]

[Total Ulla]

Where is all the talking?
If we have Nights and are allowed to talk - I think it would be nice if we made the best of it

[Romola]

Originally Posted by Total Ulla

Where is all the talking?
If we have Nights and are allowed to talk - I think it would be nice if we made the best of it

I'm at work, I promise to talk later. :jazz:

[Total Ulla]

That's nice to know (and I love new smileys - that one is really sweet).

[peekercpa]

Originally Posted by Total Ulla

Where is all the talking?
If we have Nights and are allowed to talk - I think it would be nice if we made the best of it

ok i'll ask a question just to see if anyone is paying attention.

for the folks who voted for skeezy before he claimed or the folks that kept their vote on him after he claimed, why?

i mean was it because of the half assed nature of his pm quotingg? is it because his claim was unbelievable? was it because you just didn't buy it?

and certainly claiming is not a get out of jail free card by any means. see the current game on idle's board where two claimed investigators have been lynched in a row. both being scum. and to a great extent both were kind of concensus lynches. the second one being a landslide (i guess after you lynch your first claimed investigator it makes just that much more sense to lynch a second).

the other question i have for the crowd. in fifty words or less give me the reason some folks have the position of "we have to lynch a claimed miller". and some folks even go so far as to suggest that this be done post haste. i mean if you believe the claim then that is a lynch of a townie which i obviously don't get. and to some extent as a miller you know that this is going to be the default of at least a couple of folks, if not a plurality or majority. so to some extent i believe romanic's claim. if i believe his claim then i also believe him to be town. ipso fucto, i don't want to lynch him. but other folks seem to think that lynching him is as good an idea as has ever been hatched. that just seems to be a nice easy "policy" vote for scum since they would know him to not be one of them.

[peekercpa]

neta: i give additonal cred to romanic for claiming early on. it is certainly much better to come out first with that than wait for a detec to peg you as scum and then come back with, "oh noes, i am a miller". you just have to hope that the crowd doesn't "policy" lynch your ass with a whole bunch of blinders on.

and remember what is the scum motivation? why would romanic paint a big ol' target on his back? because if he flips scum then naturally anything he said about idle is suspect. and if he flips town then scum just whack idle at some point.

[Total Ulla]

As I said in here - I was a sleep when Red claimed. When I read the claim I'd already been in the Night-thread and knew it was a mis-lynch.

I like to think that I would have unvoted, if I had seen the claim - but maybe I'm just fooling myself and pretending to be a better player than I really am.
So I can't say for sure - but I believe his claim would have made me unvote him.

Why I voted in the first place?
I did state that in the post before my vote. I felt he was spending a lot of time defending himself and a lot of time *not* trying to analyze what others said and did.

So while I did agree with him that voting Idle just for the non-claim, I also read his contributions to the game as more concerned to stay alive than to actually find some one scummy.

In retrospect I can see I was wrong. But I don't think I was wrong in my assessment in regards to his posts and their content in this game.

[Total Ulla]

And I agree on the Miller - it's not something to get all paranoid about.

It's IMO not different from having the doc of a game killed Night 1. So sure we can't trust there will be investigation to prove anyone alignment - but that's not the same as to say let's random-lynch.

No need to waste time waiting for someone to investigat Romanic - but until he shows scum-tells or PIS or stuff like that - why lynch him?

[BobArrgh]

I forgot we could talk strategy during the Night in this game.

I don't have a strong opinion on Millers yet, since this is the first one I've encountered. From what I understand, a Miller is a Townie whose investigation comes back as "Scum" or "Not Town", similar to the way a Godfather's investigation comes back as "Town".

The thing that seems really strange is the Miller/Mason thing, since a Mason is Town and knows the identity of at least one other Townie. The "Missing Radio" twist looks like an interesting way to put in a Masonry in a game with a smaller number of players.

In the Dr. Seuss game, we started with 20 players, and there were two Masons. In this game we started with 15. The "half Masonry" (that is, a Mason who knows the identity of someone else, but the other person doesn't really know the Mason), looks like a way to balance a game without giving too much power to Town.

But it definitely has a different feel than the Mason revelations of the Dr. Seuss game.

[SisterCoyote]

peeker, I think the thinking on why to lynch a miller has to do with the cop getting a false reading and no one being able to trust that the miller is actually Town until said person is dead; no one wants to let the miller skate until endgame on the off-chance they are bold, bold Scum (and Scum would totally do that).

I'm not sure I agree with this thinking, but that's my presumption.

As to why folks are talking about lynching Romanic in this game -- that's a different matter. I think the idea is to lynch him in order to either have Idle as Confirmed Town or set us up for another lynch candidate. Which...I could see getting behind that bandwagon (sorry, Romanic).

Bob, this was before your time, but in Ulla's Ragnarok game the Scum claimed Masons and won the game because of it. Masons are kind of a mixed bag, and Millers are even stranger.

[Total Ulla]

Originally Posted by SisterCoyote

I think the idea is to lynch him in order to either have Idle as Confirmed Town or set us up for another lynch candidate. Which...I could see getting behind that bandwagon (sorry, Romanic).

Underlining is mine - because I don't understand what you're trying to say. So if you could re-phrase or elaborate, it would be great!

[Total Ulla]

Also - to add on the Mason/Miller-discussion:

Our esteemed Mod has a history of designing games with all sorts of twist to "standard" roles.
The Miller/Mason-claim is very typical of the games/roles I've had the pleasure to play in with our present mod.

However - if we have a tracker/watcher then a miller would be seen as any other player. So to default lynch a Miller isn't the best play IMO.
Not that I don't see where people wanting to lynch Romanic are coming from - just that I disagree very much.

[SisterCoyote]

If we lynch Romanic and he flips as he's claimed, Idle is the closest thing to confirmed Town we've got.

If we lynch Romanic and he flips any other way, it then becomes worth examining Idle closely on the following Day, as a candidate for another lynch.

[Total Ulla]

Originally Posted by SisterCoyote

If we lynch Romanic and he flips as he's claimed, Idle is the closest thing to confirmed Town we've got.

If we lynch Romanic and he flips any other way, it then becomes worth examining Idle closely on the following Day, as a candidate for another lynch.

Ah! Got it - thanks!

[SisterCoyote]

No problem -- I'd rather be asked for clarification!

[Giraffe]

Question for those who have played with Millers before: a Google search for the role turned up a wiki that said a Miller will turn up Town if night-killed, but scum if lynched. Is this true? That seems kind of...insane. Death should be truthful, IMO.

[BobArrgh]

I don't think the FCOD wiki has that type of twist to the Miller role.

I'm also totally freaking out over the fact that there seems to be a half-vast Masonry that peeker doesn't seem to be in.

[SisterCoyote]

Wiki on Millers

I think this is the first game I've played in that actually has a Miller. If Romanic is telling the truth. It's complicated, though, with the Mason/Miller aspect that's countered by Idle's claim that he knows nothing about Romanic's alignment (I could see having a Mason/Miller who was confirmable by the other Masons, but that's not apparently what we have here).

[SisterCoyote]

NETA: Miller is one of those roles that tends to throw players into a tizzy about what to do with them, if they're even listed as a possible role in the game.

[Romola]

Although I was vociferous in pushing for Romanic's lynch near the end of yesterDay, I wouldn't back a Miller lynch as any kind of policy and will probably not be pushing for it toMorrow. My stance near the end of yesterDay was because of the particular circumstances at the time.

Near the end of yesterDay, the lynch choices appeared to be:

Moody Mitchy who I suspect of being scum, but who had claimed Doctor.

Red Skeezix, who I felt was Town, and became convinced was Town on a re-read. Even before the claim, I can't see any circumstances in which i would have voted Red Skeezix.

[B]Romanic[B], claimed Miller Mason, who I thought was more likely Town as not, but not as strongly as Red Skeezix. Couldn't be confirmed innocent by an investigation or by anyone's death but his own

Idle, claimed mystery Town power - hmmm. No matter how dubious Idle's claim appeared, there was no logical way that he could be guilty if Romanic was innocent. Anyone who suspected Idle had, necessarily, to equally suspect Romanic.

Therefore my vote was on Romanic, despite thinking he was more likely Town than not. It was only when Lucifer came out with behaviour that I saw as utterly inconsistent with any Town motivation that i lifted my vote from Romanic and voted Luci instead, which is how I finished the Day.

ToMorrow is another Day. I am still interested in an explanation of Lucifer's rationale for his votes, and will be re-reading the whole of yesterDay to see what can be surmised, if anything, from the Red voters.

[Giraffe]

Thanks, SisterCoyote!

I find the whole Romanic situation troubling. It doesn't seem like anything but a negative for Town: Idle's confirmation of receiving his PM doesn't give us the same info as a pair of claimed masons: at least there, you know for sure they're the same alignment, so if you kill one, the other is confirmed.

Here, Romanic could very easily be Scum or Third Party. But if he flips scum, what does that tell us about Idle? Idle's claim is just some guy with a radio -- who's to say that the game wouldn't have a scum talking to a Townie, feeding him false info? Or heck, what if Romanic is telling the truth but Idle is scum?

Lastly, what benefit does this "power" give Town? Romanic can send PMs to Idle. So what? If Romanic is scum, that's a great power, because he can try to manipulate a Townie, but if both are Town, what's the advantage over having them both be vanilla? It seems a bit odd to me that a mod would go to the trouble of setting up a pointless power, so I suspect some sort of mischief behind it.

Originally Posted by Idle Thoughts' Claimed Role PM

Normally, you are quite affable with the Midnight Crew, but you get the feeling that things are a little overheated this time around, and you certainly don’t want to be accidentally killed by your fellows. Your powers allow you to get really lucky, subtly altering the timestream until events become more favorable to you. How this will play out in the game you don’t know.
You’ve also heard the occasional burst of static from the radio you keep around in your room somewhere. You can’t find it, but your secret friend on the other end certainly has one of his own. He’ll probably pester you every so often.

--Power--
-???

-Also, you know that Romanic is Clubs Deuce, and that he can PM you about the game. What you don’t know is if Romanic is Town, Scum, or something else entirely. And you can’t PM him back, so you can’t ask him.

I'm pasting this in for reference.

[Idle Thoughts]

Originally Posted by SisterCoyote

If we lynch Romanic and he flips any other way, it then becomes worth examining Idle closely on the following Day, as a candidate for another lynch.

Sorry, but I still don't understand this reasoning. My PM clearly states that Romanic could be Town, scum, or third party, so it's not like I'm putting complete trust in him. I just knew he was told I was Town, that's all.

[Idle Thoughts]

Giraffe, I'm not Vanilla and if Romanic is Town, I wouldn't say he's Vanilla either, I'd say he was a Mason.


Again, in the rules thread, number 12 says a Mason is someone who knows another person is Town and can communicate with them.
Since both of those things apply to Romanic, then he is, by definition, a Mason.
In fact, going further, rule 12 states, specifically:

12. A mason is a town player who knows that at least one other player is town and can communicate with that player or those players.

Bolding mine.

Seems to me the wording is different than Masons are usually described in games. Usually, when a game has Masons, the mod says "Masons are a group of players that all know each other is Town and can talk with each other" or something along those lines that signifies a group, as a whole.

Here, it's different, though. The rule makes it sound like there COULD be one-off Masons who can talk to only one other person (so they're, by #12 definition, a Mason), but it would make sense that the person couldn't talk back (or would know the first person was Town) if they weren't a Mason themselves.
Me, I must not be a Mason since I can't talk back and don't know if he's Town. But I also know I'm not Vanilla since I have a mystery power and my role reads "Town ???".
That reads to me as saying "I'm the Town somethingorother" or "the Town mysteryrole"....which is vastly different from being vanilla Town.

So color me confused why you keep saying I'm Vanilla. : p

[SisterCoyote]

Originally Posted by Idle Thoughts

Sorry, but I still don't understand this reasoning. My PM clearly states that Romanic could be Town, scum, or third party, so it's not like I'm putting complete trust in him. I just knew he was told I was Town, that's all.

Right: Your PM says nothing about his alignment -- but his PM is very specific as yours.

Therefore, if he doesn't flip as he has claimed (Role as well as alignment) then that brings your PM/claim into question as well.

Personally, I think it is phenomenally unlikely that either of you are misrepresenting your roles or PMs, but -- as I said -- the in-game handshake and the claim of Mason in Ragnarok won Scum the game.

[SisterCoyote]

"...his PM is very specific as to yours."

Oy.

[Giraffe]

Originally Posted by Idle Thoughts

Giraffe, I'm not Vanilla and if Romanic is Town, I wouldn't say he's Vanilla either, I'd say he was a Mason.

<snip>

So color me confused why you keep saying I'm Vanilla. : p

I accidentally called you vanilla back on Day one, but this time I wasn't saying that. I was saying I didn't see how either of your roles were any better for Town than if you were both vanilla, i.e. at best, they're useless. And this is under the presumption that we had a way to confirm you both as Town, which we don't.

The one wrinkle is that you seem to have the possibility of a mystery power that will be later revealed, but given that we have no idea what that is, I'm not giving a lot of thought to it.

[Romanic]

Originally Posted by peekercpa

for the folks who voted for skeezy before he claimed or the folks that kept their vote on him after he claimed, why?

i mean was it because of the half assed nature of his pm quotingg? is it because his claim was unbelievable? was it because you just didn't buy it?

I think that I've been clear about this, but I'll repeat it here again: I didn't believe Red's claim, for being incomplete and for saying that he wouldn't be able to discuss it more before the deadline. It looked like avoidance.

The claim per se was believable, but it could as well be a cover role. Of course now I feel stupid about it, but it did look good to keep my vote on Red, at the time.

[Romanic]

Also folks, don't be looking for PFKs/SKs, in me or anyone else, since rule #14 is clear that all the players are either Town or Scum.

Originally Posted by Hypnagogic Bonafide

14. There are no players without either a town or a scum win condition.

I am confused as to why Idle's role would hint that I could be something else:

-Also, you know that Romanic is Clubs Deuce, and that he can PM you about the game. What you don’t know is if Romanic is Town, Scum, or something else entirely. And you can’t PM him back, so you can’t ask him.

but I think the rule supersedes it (although I might be biased here, you tell me).

[BillMc]

Originally Posted by Romanic

I am confused as to why Idle's role would hint that I could be something else:

but I think the rule supersedes it (although I might be biased here, you tell me).

Maybe we have temporal paradoxes with the rules....or maybe we have someone trying to hide behind the rules.

If Idle's PM is truthful - it would appear to mod confirm Romanic as town by rule #12.

However, rule #12 does not preclude there being a scum role that can communicate with another player.

"Something else entirely" cannot mean PFK/SK by rule#14.

But rule#14 does not preclude "something else entirely" being someone who can change their alignment. Indeed, the clarification on "recruitment" does not explicitly rule out someone changing their own wincon - only that no one else can directly change someone elses.

Originally Posted by Hypnagogic Bonafide

No post restrictions, no recruitment*. However, there will be a litany of strange roles, and a weird voting system (both of which I have sort of become known for). Full details in the rules.

*There is no player who can directly change another player's alignment.

I voted Red yesterday because of his partial claim and his renewed vote on a claimed Doc. I think a Doc is more valuable than an investigative role with an unknown quirk.

That said, based on the above, and if there is no further information on Day 2, I think Romanic is the obvious target for the lynch - clear up the "miller" status and the apparent conundrums with the rules.

And yes, this is being posted before Dawn, as based on recent games, being still alive on Day 2 would be against the odds