Ancient Roman religion and crazy people - Helen's kind of pit thread

[Lounsbury]

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

No, I didn't get any sort of reference.

Ah... My Sig, my sig since ten years..... I should think that one might grasp the references... Cheesemakers, Romans.

And I do get annoyed when people make uninformed claims about what Romans would or wouldn't do, and then, when called on it, resort to generalizing to a point where it's meaningless.

My Dear Precious Grad Student.

Off the cuff pissing relative to a Loon is not the same as making uninformed claims. Get a fucking grip, my dear special Grad Student.

Primo, it is indeed the Romans. It is not a "Claim" - it is a bloody pit convo about a loon. Should I desire to make "claims" about the Romans - in the proper sense of the term Claim - I would do so in the proper Forum.

Secundo, while I understand the Grad Student Reaction here, get a fucking grip, if someone pisses on (ahem, makes a passing jocular reference with an intention to highlight a Loon) in a pit rant about (however stunningly unlikely this is) say Al Andalous and Islamic Law and Applied Dhimma (oh like say It would be burned at the stake in Al Andalous - utter rot relative to burning I may add), I might note that - yes right, said Loon's idealisation of Andalous is absurd and It would not survive long [not irrelevant to It, given convos yrs ago and certain fetishes of It]. It would be tedious to claim further expertise, but if I may

Whatever. You were making a stupid throwaway remark, and I took it seriously because I generally find that people around here make informed throwaway remarks.

Bollocks, you're playing bloody overly precious Grad Student.

Now, let's review the Johanna issue.
1) You call her 'it'.
2) I ask why you don't respect her identity as a woman.
3) You say "mentally ill person who is deeply troubled by not a particular gender but by said person's physical sexuality"
4) I ask you what in the world you mean (that is, what is physical sexuality seperate from physical gender when discussing gender identity issues).
5) You reply: "actual physical.... being a physical being"

I called the Loon an it. I shall continue as the Loon is a Loon.

Does anyone understand this? Are you saying she's confused about the fact that she exists, and therefore can't be female?

I am saying the fucker has fucking no bloody clue as to what the fucker really wants, and is not, in fact facing a Gender (Mascule / Feminine) problem, but has a problem with plain straight out dealing with SELF whatever Gender identity assumed - and that the whole Trans thing (as well as obsession with various obscure foreign things, Roman cults, Sufi movements [on which I had to jerk its head out of its ass relative to idealisation] etc) say to me not moving to another gender (relative to what I have seen in healthy real life) but a fundamental issue that is not Gender but Self.

I do not have an issue with changing sex, known lots of people I remain personally in touch with who have done so. I do have a problem with simple mindedly sucking up cretins, poseurs and the marginally mentally ill exploiting Touchy Feeling "Oh if it wants to she today it's she" culture for uncritical "You're Okay, I'm Okay" bollocks. Or uncritical rubbish, to be short.

That may make me evil, but I don't really give a fuck, it is straight up sincere. In any case, I don't bloody give a fuck about Touchy Feely Grad Student All is Valid thinking. I had enough of that ... well, 20 odd yrs ago.

[WednesdayAddams]

Originally Posted by ulfhjorr

I think he's saying that she's just generally nuts, so crazy, in fact, that she doesn't really have a gender identity disorder, but rather has just latched onto that as one aspect of her craziness. I think it would be something like:

People with real gender identity issues : Johanna :: people who hear voices when others are talking to them : people who hear voices in their head

That, at least, is what I've gotten from his ramblings. Whether that's right, or how he distinguishes between real and "fake" gender identity issues, I've no clue.

I'm going to see your multi-issue with gender identity included and raise you a possible DID. I've been wondering for a while if it may not apply to her.

[Lounsbury]

Originally Posted by MarissaW

I'm going to see your multi-issue with gender identity included and raise you a possible DID. I've been wondering for a while if it may not apply to her.

I missed Utrecht's note, but yes.

As for Real vs Fake - well, that's about having judgment. As people trust me, and not merely some name brand Global, to manage very large amount of money (relative to normal people) relative to direct equity investment in emerging markets (not listed stuff), which is all about cold no-cultural complexes judgement of character, I feel perfectly comfortable in personal judgement.

But ex personal judgment, you can either take the Anyone Says Anything and Every Opinion is Valid route, or one does a triage.

Ex scientific issues, that devolves to judgement. Either there is space for calling bullshit, or ... it's all squishy rot. At the very bloody least, I was bloody fucking honest, unlike most of you namby pamby middling gits.

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

No, I didn't get any sort of reference. And I do get annoyed when people make uninformed claims about what Romans would or wouldn't do, and then, when called on it, resort to generalizing to a point where it's meaningless. Whatever. You were making a stupid throwaway remark, and I took it seriously because I generally find that people around here make informed throwaway remarks.

Now, let's review the Johanna issue.

1) You call her 'it'.
2) I ask why you don't respect her identity as a woman.
3) You say "mentally ill person who is deeply troubled by not a particular gender but by said person's physical sexuality"
4) I ask you what in the world you mean (that is, what is physical sexuality seperate from physical gender when discussing gender identity issues).
5) You reply: "actual physical.... being a physical being"

Does anyone understand this? Are you saying she's confused about the fact that she exists, and therefore can't be female?

Well I simply can not respect "her: as a woman for the simple fact that rhe is not a woman in the biological sense.

Look. If you still have a cock and balls, then there is no way that you could be considered a woman. If all rhe is doing is crossdressing and ACTING like a woman, then rhe is NOT a transexual, simply a transvestite wannabe.

Incidentaly, I get that statement, verbatim, from my sister-in0law, who is most definitely, a lesbian.

Please forgive me for seeming yo agree with the colonmonster, it wasn't an intentional thing.

[Khampelf]

As the sole self identified Pagan to set foot in this thread, I acknowledge there is no objective reality behind the 'gods' I choose to revere. I choose them because I'm happier for it. It seems more important to have faith, that what specific form that takes.

I'm sorry if this seems very sad and delusional to you, it makes sense to me. It's really just a form of self-programming that has had positive results for many.

Also, dancing naked around a flagpole winding ribbons as we go is just wicked fun.


I propose an experiment. Say this at dawn every day for a week, as cynically or foolishly as you like.

I bless RA, the shining light.
I bless Isis/Luna in the night.
I bless the air, the Horus hawk.
I bless the earth, on which I walk.

Think about the words, and see if you don't find yourself having a better day as a result.

Or don't, whichever. Just a crazy person talking here. A happy crazy person.

[Darmund]

Originally Posted by Khampelf

I propose an experiment. Say this at dawn every day for a week, as cynically or foolishly as you like.

I bless RA, the shining light.
I bless Isis/Luna in the night.
I bless the air, the Horus hawk.
I bless the earth, on which I walk.

Think about the words, and see if you don't find yourself having a better day as a result.

I have a similar morning ritual. It works great! Except instead of saying the words, I masturbate.

[Khampelf]

Originally Posted by Darmund

I have a similar morning ritual. It works great! Except instead of saying the words, I masturbate.

Hey, whatever works. Every act of pleasure is a paean to the goddess.


"Some people think the world is fine, and sweet as sugar candy,
I myself believe in whatever comes in handy."

The Cramps - "Bikini Girls with Machine Guns."

[WednesdayAddams]

Guaranteed happy ending. Plus it helps you get to sleep at night.

Khampelf, this:

Originally Posted by Khampelf

I acknowledge there is no objective reality behind the 'gods' I choose to revere. I choose them because I'm happier for it.

To me doesn't read 'delusional' so much as 'coping mechanism.' It's up there with the belief that you won't get burgled because your neighborhood is safe or you won't get killed in an accident because you drive a Volvo.

[WednesdayAddams]

Originally Posted by Khampelf

Hey, whatever works. Every act of pleasure is a paean to the goddess.

Okay, that's not objectively recognizing your gods aren't real. That's a rather smug statement that even if we don't believe, your god is there getting off with us. That's as creepy as saying there's a god in my head judging all my thoughts.

See? This is what happens when we let our kids build their lives on song lyrics, as if they have some deep wise life statement.

[Lounsbury]

Originally Posted by Xploder

Well I simply can not respect "her: as a woman for the simple fact that rhe is not a woman in the biological sense.

Look. If you still have a cock and balls, then there is no way that you could be considered a woman. If all rhe is doing is crossdressing and ACTING like a woman, then rhe is NOT a transexual, simply a transvestite wannabe.

Incidentaly, I get that statement, verbatim, from my sister-in0law, who is most definitely, a lesbian.

Please forgive me for seeming yo agree with the colonmonster, it wasn't an intentional thing.

Oh come now, is it so bad to admit my point, merely because of me?

All about, re supra, Sincerity. Just like trolling, or whatever.

Or in re say investment issues:
There is Quantatitive: stuff that has numbers and they are what they are, but .... Numbers / Stats can lie
There is Qualitative: Judgement. Bullshit is bullshit.

One can either be a namby pamby git and suck up all, or call bullshit. I don't give a bloody cheap fuck about morality, nor traditional gender roles or whatnot. But I do make qualitative judgements - and whatever the bad image of the word judgement chez The Cultural Left, it's necessary. So there it is. One does not be a sub-moron like Grossie to have such an approach.

[Lounsbury]

Originally Posted by Khampelf

Hey, whatever works. Every act of pleasure is a paean to the goddess.

Ergo my utter contempt for this concept and a 'goddess' is a paean to your absurd posing. As it does give me a wee bit of pleasure. The sense of contempt.

[Khampelf]

Originally Posted by MarissaW

Okay, that's not objectively recognizing your gods aren't real.

Well, I guess I didn't add parenthetically add 'Every act of pleasure is a paean to the goddess (who doesn't necessarily exist, and is just my mental manifestation of that which is nurturing or beneficial to my own good will)

Originally Posted by MarissaW

That's a rather smug statement that even if we don't believe, your god is there getting off with us. That's as creepy as saying there's a god in my head judging all my thoughts.

Or just a mental mechanism to negate the guilt other system have created to discourage masturbation. It's not a perversion, it's a sacrament. That's how I choose to think about it, YMMV. (Your Masturbation May Vary)

Do I really have to say "These things are true to me, in my head, and not necessarily true for anyone else at all, ever." For every thing I might type in this thread? Eris give me strength! (Eris being an imaginary construct who, as a representative of discord, allows me to examine disharmony in a new, and hopefully positive light, not an actual physical being with any reality whatsoever, to me or anyone else.)

Originally Posted by MarissaW

See? This is what happens when we let our kids build their lives on song lyrics, as if they have some deep wise life statement.

I chose the lyric because it reflects my belief, I didn't form the belief around the lyric.


"The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls,
and tenement halls."
--Simon and Garfunkle, The Sounds of Silence.

I have found that meaning is where you find it.

[Khampelf]

Originally Posted by collounsbury

Ergo my utter contempt for this concept and a 'goddess' is a paean to your absurd posing. As it does give me a wee bit of pleasure. The sense of contempt.

I've explained some of this in my post to MarissaW. I've also admitted that in your worldview, I'm a sad, delusional crazy person. Why are you arguing with a crazy person? Ahhh, yes, so you can feel contempt, which you describe as pleasurable. Glad to afford you the opportunity.

In my worldview, however, I'm still a happy sinless pagan.

[ulfhjorr]

Originally Posted by Khampelf

Do I really have to say "These things are true to me, in my head, and not necessarily true for anyone else at all, ever." For every thing I might type in this thread?

Well no, you don't. A far easier course of action would be to just drop the whole retarded charade that is religion, of whatever stripe you may prefer.

[Uthrecht]

Originally Posted by MarissaW

Okay, that's not objectively recognizing your gods aren't real. That's a rather smug statement that even if we don't believe, your god is there getting off with us. That's as creepy as saying there's a god in my head judging all my thoughts.

That's fair enough. Although...

Originally Posted by MarissaW

To me doesn't read 'delusional' so much as 'coping mechanism.'

This is a rather smug statement as well.

ETA: I'll clarify a bit. If Khampelf wants to own it as a coping mechanism, I withdraw the statement. But if he wants to call it a religion or belief system or anything larger than that, to re-classify it as a coping mechanism seems dismissive.

[Khampelf]

Originally Posted by ulfhjorr

Well no, you don't. A far easier course of action would be to just drop the whole retarded charade that is religion, of whatever stripe you may prefer.

I'm happier as an agnostic pagan than I was as an angry atheist.

I just got sorry for the lions, and threw myself to them in this thread.

See, collunsbury is chomping away happily on meta(physical)tarsus.


Is it still religion if you're only pretending to believe? Is it still religion if you're the only one who holds certain views? Historically, organized religion has been mostly a social control mechanism, and I have no truck with it.

[Veb]

I feel filthy.

I rather agree with collounsbury though for somewhat different reasons, and only as far as the original example, i.e. Johanna. Leaving out all the sidetracks about ancient Roman methods and bases for punishment, I think Johanna has supplied more than ample 'proof' of wingnuttery even by loose message board standards.

It has nothing to do with her gender identification (or whatever the proper term is) relative state--physical or mental--of transgenderism or even her distinctly eccentric choice of beliefs, i.e. the cult of Cybele and ecstatic drumming. Though I can't even read 'ecstatic drumming' without cracking up laughing. Go all Keith Moon, wilde womyn.

My problems with her are just ones of degree. I don't care if people fervently believe in Cybele, Astarte, Allah, Jesus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or their own left toes. I also don't care if they like to fuck men, women, both, none, all, inflatable goods or at separate tables. I believe, quite firmly, that it's none of my business. There's nothing I could, should or would do about it, 'it' being religious beliefs or sexual practices. Long, impassioned screeds about same fall squarely into extreme over-sharing territory.

If somebody wants to cherry pick ancient religions, get married in Star Trek costumes with fake Vulcan ears, believe they're really a 'tyger' or cartoon lion accidentally born in human shape or their erogenous zones are in non-standard locations, that's swell. Long may they...whatever. Same goes with more mainstream religions AFAIC.

What people don't have to do, and I'm under no obligation to appreciate, is grandstanding. I don't mind that Johanna might be a little--okay, very--giddy with her new-found freedom to be her inner self or whatever. I don't mind that Lib determines, by increasingly tortured 'reasoning', that Jesus and God or whatever his kick du jour are real because he believes so. I DO mind their relentless narcissism. I do mind that they don't have the common sense, much basic perspective, to shut the hell up about their fascinating selves once in a while.

I rate compassion and the willingness to live and let live highly. But when people don eye-popping guises, climb into little clown cars to roar down the street, blare the horn and yell, "Look at me! I'm a parade!!" then yeah, I'm going to roll my eyes.

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Xploder

Well I simply can not respect "her: as a woman for the simple fact that rhe is not a woman in the biological sense.

Look. If you still have a cock and balls, then there is no way that you could be considered a woman. If all rhe is doing is crossdressing and ACTING like a woman, then rhe is NOT a transexual, simply a transvestite wannabe.

Incidentaly, I get that statement, verbatim, from my sister-in0law, who is most definitely, a lesbian.

Please forgive me for seeming yo agree with the colonmonster, it wasn't an intentional thing.

So because she lacks female genital and a male mind, she has to be male, even though the disconnect between the two has caused her an incredible amount of stress? I think if I had to live with a male body and a female mind or a female body and a male mind, I'd be a little fractured too.

[WednesdayAddams]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

This is a rather smug statement as well.

ETA: I'll clarify a bit. If Khampelf wants to own it as a coping mechanism, I withdraw the statement. But if he wants to call it a religion or belief system or anything larger than that, to re-classify it as a coping mechanism seems dismissive.

I wasn't being dismissive or smug. I was pointing out that since he clearly recognized that objectively his gods didn't exist and it was more to make him feel good than anything else....that's coping mechanism. How is that different than saying "I know it probably isn't true, but since I live in a nice neighborhood I feel like I won't get burgled" ? You're finding offense where none was intended on behalf of someone who didn't read any into it.

As for coping mechanisms: Everyone has them. That's not dismissive, that's acknowledgment. Whether it is self assurance that your Volvo makes you safer or the idea that you really are special and different from everyone else or believing in a diety...everyone has one.

[Footsore Rambler]

Originally Posted by TVeblen

What people don't have to do, and I'm under no obligation to appreciate, is grandstanding. I don't mind that Johanna might be a little--okay, very--giddy with her new-found freedom to be her inner self or whatever. I don't mind that Lib determines, by increasingly tortured 'reasoning', that Jesus and God or whatever his kick du jour are real because he believes so. I DO mind their relentless narcissism. I do mind that they don't have the common sense, much basic perspective, to shut the hell up about their fascinating selves once in a while.

I rate compassion and the willingness to live and let live highly. But when people don eye-popping guises, climb into little clown cars to roar down the street, blare the horn and yell, "Look at me! I'm a parade!!" then yeah, I'm going to roll my eyes.

That's what I was thinking too. Let's leave the particulars, be they transgenderism or religion or anything else, out for a sec, and just call it a Special Burden. When someone feels that it's necessary to go ON and ON about their Special Burden, how it causes them to be reviled by society, but also is the main source of joy and self-worth in their life -- then I have to wonder a bit whether the Special Burden is entirely geniune and spontaneous in all its parts. Even if it is, it's sort of not so Special anymore if you make the rest of us share it, you know?

[Muskrat Love]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

So because she lacks female genital and a male mind, she has to be male, even though the disconnect between the two has caused her an incredible amount of stress? I think if I had to live with a male body and a female mind or a female body and a male mind, I'd be a little fractured too.

I don't think his male genitalia caused him too much grief. I seem to recall Johanna posting that he has penis-in-vagina sex with women. He claimed to be a lesbian in a man's body.

[Inner Stickler]

I fail to see what that is proof of other than Johanna sees herself as a woman who is sexually attracted to other women. And in that regard, having a penis has probably caused her a lot of grief.

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

So because she lacks female genital and a male mind, she has to be male, even though the disconnect between the two has caused her an incredible amount of stress? I think if I had to live with a male body and a female mind or a female body and a male mind, I'd be a little fractured too.

Yes indeed he DOES have to be a male. That's why they call it MALE genitalia. If/when/suppose that he ever DOES get a sex change operation, then he would become she. I couldn't care less about "her" stress. I don't know the guy except through a messageboard and on said messageboard, he comes off as a creepy whackjob with monumental delusions.

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

maybe he meant impaled like on a penis

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

You're a saint if you can read Johanna posts and not see Mrs Garrison from Southpark, Mrs Garrison is funny being the major difference there.

[Xploder]

slight hijack concerning drumming:

When I worked at AAA, there was a New Age place next door that sold crystals, wiccan crap and...drums. Storm prevention drums. I shit you not. We had a severe thuderstorm alert and six or seven of these morons went out in front of their building to "drum the storm away". As funny as that was, it was even funnier when lightning hit the transformer on a power pole down the block and a downpour started.

I never laughed so hard in my whole life. They closed the place down less than a week later and I was sad.

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Xploder

Yes indeed he DOES have to be a male. That's why they call it MALE genitalia. If/when/suppose that he ever DOES get a sex change operation, then he would become she. I couldn't care less about "her" stress. I don't know the guy except through a messageboard and on said messageboard, he comes off as a creepy whackjob with monumental delusions.

Gender simply isn't as simple as what external parts you have. There are other factors that influence it from mental and physical aspects. If you must define it in that way, you are fighting against biology. And your most recent post shows that on top of everything else, you're a douche. So, I think I'm just going to drop it and let you be.

[WednesdayAddams]

Originally Posted by Xploder

slight hijack concerning drumming:

When I worked at AAA, there was a New Age place next door that sold crystals, wiccan crap and...drums. Storm prevention drums. I shit you not. We had a severe thuderstorm alert and six or seven of these morons went out in front of their building to "drum the storm away". As funny as that was, it was even funnier when lightning hit the transformer on a power pole down the block and a downpour started.

I never laughed so hard in my whole life. They closed the place down less than a week later and I was sad.

It's always disappointing to lose free street theater.

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

Gender simply isn't as simple as what external parts you have. There are other factors that influence it from mental and physical aspects. If you must define it in that way, you are fighting against biology. And your most recent post shows that on top of everything else, you're a douche. So, I think I'm just going to drop it and let you be.

Sure there are other factors that influence the difference between male and female. The main one would be chromosomes. Look it up.

As for being a douche because I find the fact of drumming a storm away as out and out craziness, whatever. I find ANY sort of religious belief as grasping at non-existant straws rather than trying to educate yourself on how the universe really works.

Here's a clue: Astrology, Wicca, Catholicism, Baptism, New Age Crystal Worship, and whatever other weird shit that people want to believe in, well, they're all the same thing. Deluding yourself into believing that anything you do MUST be controlled, directed, guided or whatever by some sort of external power rather than believing that you're responsible for your own actions. Shit happens. Shit doesn't happen because god made it happen or because your stars weren't aligned right or any other crap.

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by MarissaW

It's always disappointing to lose free street theater.

Agreed...especially when they're as funny as these clowns were. Can't tell ME that it isn't just a scam to make money, I went into their store and saw their prices. Who the fuck pays $250 for a little chunk of quartz?

[WednesdayAddams]

Teenage girls on wicca.com who found their parents' credit cards?
People too stoned to know where the decimal point should go?
Ummm...Ooh! Gullible people with the common sense of slightly concussed sheep with a 'prescription' from their 'holistic healer' !


What do I win?

[Xploder]

Originally Posted by MarissaW

Teenage girls on wicca.com who found their parents' credit cards?
People too stoned to know where the decimal point should go?
Ummm...Ooh! Gullible people with the common sense of slightly concussed sheep with a 'prescription' from their 'holistic healer' !


What do I win?

A huge .

That's it cause I'm cheap.

[WednesdayAddams]

Well, that works, too.

[Miss Purl McKnittington]

Hey, Helen's Eidolon! You said in the other thread that you could understand why a modern person would want to worship Roman-style. Can you explain it to me? I'm still in the dark. It might just be that I am agnostic and not too big on group religions in general, but I really do have trouble imagining one of my peers celebrating Ambarvalia, simply because our society is no longer agricultural. I suppose you could bless your lawn, but it loses some of its impact when you're asking for green grass instead of a good wheat harvest. And I can't imagine naked dudes in fresh goat skins beating girls with bloody strips of said goat skins. Times have changed, you know?

[Helen's Eidolon]

Sorry, collounsbury, I was going to write a long, terribly witty reply to you, but life calls and you are better at being argumentative on a message board than I am. Shall we just say that Johanna is crazy, I think she's a woman but you're not sure, and I'm used to taking everything with the word 'Rome' in it very seriously?

Purl, if I said that, it's not what I meant - the exact opposite, in fact. I can see why one would want to worship Roman divinities. I find that reading about Roman religion inspires a sense of wonder in me that must be similar to other peoples' religious feelings. However, it's the 'Roman-style' that's precisely the problem. There are no temples, I'm not going to sacrifice animals or burn cow fetuses and keep their ashes. So Roman religion is, to me, a total non-starter. (Just as a side-note, before collounsbury starts being snide again, there was a lot more to ancient religion than agriculture.)

[Miss Purl McKnittington]

Ah, I misinterpreted you or misremembered then, Helen. My bad!

As for the agriculture thing, agricultural festivals are always the ones that stick in my head best. Unless they involve naked people wearing animal skins, I guess.

[Xploder]

Maybe he should change his username to SnideBerry. Just sayin'.

[Khampelf]

Originally Posted by Miss Purl McKnittington

And I can't imagine naked dudes in fresh goat skins beating girls with bloody strips of said goat skins.

You don't attend the right sort of parties, Miss Purl. And the phallic bread, don't forget the phallic bread.

I'm not arguing in earnest, it's just phallic of anything better to do.

Bachhus is well pleased, whenever I pun.

Disclaimer: I attach no objective reality to Bachhus, or any divine or semi-diving figures, they are merely Jungian archetypes of emblematic mental states, and make rationalization much more fun and authoritative, at least that is the opinion of Khampelf, and he expects no one to agree.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Originally Posted by collounsbury

Ah... My Sig, my sig since ten years..... I should think that one might grasp the references... Cheesemakers, Romans.

And, I still have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

[lno]

In Monty Python's Life of Brian, a number of people are gathered at the ass-end of the crowd listening to the Sermon on the Mount:

Spectator I: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Mrs. Gregory: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Gregory: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

Now, I have no clue whatever Col's sig is, but any reference to loons, Romans, and cheesemakers brings that movie to mind immediately.

Since it seems like you're unfamiliar with the movie, here's most likely the funniest part for any student of Latin:

[Brian is writing graffiti on the palace wall. The Centurion catches him in the act]
Centurion: What's this, then? "Romanes eunt domus"? People called Romanes, they go, the house?
Brian: It says, "Romans go home. "
Centurion: No it doesn't ! What's the latin for "Roman"? Come on, come on !
Brian: Er, "Romanus" !
Centurion: Vocative plural of "Romanus" is?
Brian: Er, er, "Romani" !
Centurion: [Writes "Romani" over Brian's graffiti] "Eunt"? What is "eunt"? Conjugate the verb, "to go" !
Brian: Er, "Ire". Er, "eo", "is", "it", "imus", "itis", "eunt".
Centurion: So, "eunt" is...?
Brian: Third person plural present indicative, "they go".
Centurion: But, "Romans, go home" is an order. So you must use...?
[He twists Brian's ear]
Brian: Aaagh ! The imperative !
Centurion: Which is...?
Brian: Aaaagh ! Er, er, "i" !
Centurion: How many Romans?
Brian: Aaaaagh ! Plural, plural, er, "ite" !
Centurion: [Writes "ite"] "Domus"? Nominative? "Go home" is motion towards, isn't it?
Brian: Dative !
[the Centurion holds a sword to his throat]
Brian: Aaagh ! Not the dative, not the dative ! Er, er, accusative, "Domum" !
Centurion: But "Domus" takes the locative, which is...?
Brian: Er, "Domum" !
Centurion: [Writes "Domum"] Understand? Now, write it out a hundred times.
Brian: Yes sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.
Centurion: Hail Caesar ! And if it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Ha! I have seen that movie, but it was ages ago. Thanks for the explanation and the laugh.

[Muskrat Love]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

I fail to see what that is proof of other than Johanna sees herself as a woman who is sexually attracted to other women. And in that regard, having a penis has probably caused her a lot of grief.

I doubt it, as he seems to enjoy inserting it into women and using it in the typical male fashion until he has a typical male ejaculation.

I personally think that, in general, if you have male chromosomes you are a male, and if you have female chromosomes you are a female, but I don't think strictly in black and white terms, there are shades of grey. There are people who, while genetically male, have developed in a way that makes them indistinguishable from a female to anyone but a gynecologist or someone doing a blood test on them. I can accept them as identifying as female, and think that's probably for the best.

Then there are people with psychological issues that cause them to feel entirely like the opposite gender mentally, while physically still being what their chromosomes say they are. I think this is probably very similar to Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID), which is a medical condition that causes a person to think that parts of their body do not belong - their physical shape just feels wrong to them. There was a recent story about a man in Australia who froze his leg with dry ice to force doctors to amputate it because his entire life he hated the leg and felt like it didn't belong. Apparently he was otherwise perfectly sane, but the presence of this "extra" limb made him suicidal. I think if a person is diagnosed with that and psychological treatment does not seem to be helping, they should be allowed to have an amputation to keep them from killing themselves. Likewise, if you have a disorder that makes you feel like your maleness or femaleness is wrong and treating the mental disorder is not working, surgery should be considered as an option then, but I don't think that process changes the person's true gender or should guarantee that society treat them as what they think they are. If people want to treat a male-to-female transsexual as female because they care about their feelings, that is their right, but it is not wrong if a person chooses not to - speaking the truth, no matter how emotionally painful it may be to someone, should not be considered wrong. There's people out there who think they are dragons, wolves, or "tygers", and refusing to treat them as anything other than a human is not an evil act, even if it makes them upset. People shouldn't be forced to accept other people's reality if it's all in their head.

Johanna does not fall into the same category as those with BIID in my opinion. From his own postings, he does not seem to reject his physical manhood. His penis is not an alien body part that does not belong on his body, it's a functional tool for fucking women. Johanna is just a very delusional and attention seeking man who, for whatever reason, has decided to pretend to have a disorder he does not really have. He's like the assholes who pretend to have Aspergers and use it as an excuse to act like a jerk.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Ugh. It would be awesome if you did some reading on transgender issues rather than use trite analogies.

[Muskrat Love]

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

Ugh. It would be awesome if you did some reading on transgender issues rather than use trite analogies.

What makes you think I haven't? I understand that there are people who identify as a gender that does not match their biology, who have honestly felt like they were born in the wrong body. I know that there men who are mentally the same as females. There is also evidence that this may be due to physical differences in their brain structures, that this may be due to a genetic glitch that cause men to have female brains and vice versa (though it's not conclusive as environmental factors also affect how the brain develops). I know that this is not unique to humans, and there have been cases of animals that behaved completely like their opposite gender. But I also know that there are LOTS of things that go wrong with people's brains to make their personal identity and perception not match reality, and I see no reason to distinguish this from any other mental handicap. I think we should accommodate the handicapped, and they should not be discriminated against, but forcing society to treat people as something they are not just because of a mental defect is a dangerous road to travel down. I also think there are serious ethical issues when we start allowing doctors to make major physical modifications to a person to help their body match their mental self-image. I do think that sex-change operations are justified ethically in many cases, since they do seem to drastically reduce the sucide rate among people whose brains have this identification disorder, but the standards for approval for sex change operations have been becoming less stringent and people with other mental disorders may be doing irreparable harm to themselves due to temporary identity issues that could be resolved in other ways.

As an example, if there is a woman who has, since early childhood, felt like she is a male and who is suffering from severe depression due to this, if she has no other mental issues that affect her judgement, I think she should be allowed to have surgery to change her body to make her more comfortable with herself. I do not think this would make her a man - she would fall into a subcategory of females and should not be discriminated against due to her handicap (and if you want to claim it's not a handicap to be born transgendered, explain the depression that's caused by this circumstance of birth that is beyond their control).

On the other hand, if you have someone who has had symptoms of a wide range of mental illnesses, and after identifying as a female all their lives decides at the age of 25 that they want to be a man, I think it would be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath for a doctor to perform surgery on her. Likewise, if a person decided that they are really a lizard person and that they want the exterior portion of their ears removed, their tongue forked, and some "extra" digits on their hands removed, I don't think that should be allowed.

Johanna has not always identified as a female. I see no indication that Johanna feels like a woman because of a glitch in his brain design - Johanna is a mentally ill man who is obsessed with a cult of eunuchs and claims to be a woman yet remains male physically and in his sexual behavior. If we draw the line between "crazy" and "normal except for sexual identification" so that Johanna is on the same side as legitimate transgendered people, we are doing a discredit to people with a real issue and possibly affecting their future ability to be accepted by society.

[Lounsbury]

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

Ha! I have seen that movie, but it was ages ago. Thanks for the explanation and the laugh.

And now you get my humour as well. Something about Graduate School in humanities seems to rather turn you lot into humourless punctilious ... academics.

As for the Johanna issue; I largely agree with Badtz Maru, and in particular "Johanna has not always identified as a female. I see no indication that Johanna feels like a woman because of a glitch in his brain design - Johanna is a mentally ill man who is obsessed with a cult of eunuchs and claims to be a woman yet remains male physically and in his sexual behavior. If we draw the line between "crazy" and "normal except for sexual identification" so that Johanna is on the same side as legitimate transgendered people, we are doing a discredit to people with a real issue and possibly affecting their future ability to be accepted by society. "

Now, the usual whinging gits will say "oh how do you tell, who are you to judge, etc"

The answer is that I have brain and am paid to make judgements; and I despise namby pamby "I'm Okay, You're Okay" attitudes.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Originally Posted by collounsbury

And now you get my humour as well. Something about Graduate School in humanities seems to rather turn you lot into humourless punctilious ... academics.

You've never seen my department,then. The last thing we are usually accused of is lacking a sense of humour. Sense of dignity, maybe. Sense of adulthood, certainly. Any sense at all, much of the time. All Classics people do is drink and make dirty jokes - it's our job.

The quote of Batdz you repeated is fair, although I disagree with it.

More problematic is this:

Likewise, if you have a disorder that makes you feel like your maleness or femaleness is wrong and treating the mental disorder is not working, surgery should be considered as an option then, but I don't think that process changes the person's true gender or should guarantee that society treat them as what they think they are.

Do you agree with that, too?

[Muskrat Love]

If I claimed to be Native American, despite having no Native American ancestry, and had surgery performed to give myself high cheekbones or otherwise make myself look like one, is society wrong if it tells me I'm not a real Native American?

[Lounsbury]

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

You've never seen my department,then. The last thing we are usually accused of is lacking a sense of humour. Sense of dignity, maybe. Sense of adulthood, certainly. Any sense at all, much of the time. All Classics people do is drink and make dirty jokes - it's our job.

Oh, I have seen plenty of such departments, my opinion stands. Drinking and dirty jokes are not evidence of humour.

The quote of Batdz you repeated is fair, although I disagree with it.

More problematic is this:

Do you agree with that, too?

Hadn't read it. .... I am indifferent to that opinion. The 'True gender' no. As for guaranty of treatment, perhaps yes.

[Muskrat Love]

Helen, I'm just not clear on your position on where lines should be drawn when someone's personal identity conflicts with how the rest of the world identifies them, or if there's even a line. It seems necessary for a functioning society to classify people by various means, if for no other reason to protect people from others who have their own way of classifying others and treat them unfairly because of it - if we didn't, we'd have no way to address sexual and racist discrimination. If we can't agree whether a person is a woman or not, how can we fairly tell if a person is being treated unfairly because of their gender? Do you believe that we should always accept a person as what they claim to be, no matter how long they have done so or what their reasons are?

I think that, if we didn't have those lines, we'd have perverted men claiming to be women just long enough to go watch some pee in a public restroom, or people taking advantage of scholarship funds set up for minorities that have never experienced the prejudice of the group they claim to be a part of. We'll have people "under this tall" getting injured on roller coasters because they claim that, inside, they really are "over this tall". I think unconditionally allowing people to choose how society identifies them leads to chaos and a degradation of the personal identification of others.

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

Originally Posted by Badtz Maru

If I claimed to be Native American, despite having no Native American ancestry, and had surgery performed to give myself high cheekbones or otherwise make myself look like one, is society wrong if it tells me I'm not a real Native American?

On the SDMB, you can get away with only the first part!