Ellis Dee throws like a girl

[Helen's Eidolon]

What the hell, we might as well stop hijacking the TYM thread and get a real Pit thread going.

You may not even be aware of it, but I think you're a sexist dipshit. At least give me some logical consistency along with your throwaway insults.

A selection of quotes for the passerby's perusal:

The intent is not to disparage a female body part, but rather to characterize the male as a whiny bitch.

You clearly don't get it, then. Being a dick at least carries the connotation of being manly, albeit in a jerk kind of way. There is nothing manly about being a whiny bitch. The most effective way to insult a man for being unmanly is to compare him to a woman.

There is nothing wrong with a woman being like a woman, but for a man, it's definitely unmanly. And that's bad, m'kay?

Some day women may grasp this concept, but I'm not holding my breath.

In response to me challenging his statement:

Thanks for demonstrating how women are unable to grasp this concept.

My conclusions: you're a fan of traditional gender roles (which is bullshit) and don't mind being a misogynistic asshole to posters along the way.

[Ellis Dee]

Go cry to all your skirt-wearing guy friends.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

Go cry to all your skirt-wearing guy friends.

Keep up the cutting wit, and I'm sure I'll be bawling in no time.

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee in the other thread

You realize that you're proving my point for me, right?

Saying that a man takes care of children as well as a woman isn't an insult to the man.

And what, exactly, are the negative traits of women?

Calling a woman 'mannish' is a completely different category of insult is what I'm saying.

It may not be an insult to the individual man to say he takes care of children as well as women, but for heaven's sake do you see what you just wrote? Of course women are all naturally maternal and it's a compliment for a man to even approach womanly levels of competence with children? Really?

What are the negative traits traditionally associated with women? I'd say most of them boil down to weakness and emotional instability.

[Uthrecht]

What I don't get here, is how using the embodying term for a person (woman) to insult someone of another type (man) could possibly be a positive to the first person. If you are saying that you are complimenting a man by calling them a woman, I can start to get behind your logic.

[Darmund]

There are guys who are bluntly honest about the way guys think... and there are guys who get laid. My girlfriend doesn't know I post here as far as I know.

But still, no comment.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

Calling a woman 'mannish' is a completely different category of insult is what I'm saying.

Explain how.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

What I don't get here, is how using the embodying term for a person (woman) to insult someone of another type (man) could possibly be a positive to the first person. If you are saying that you are complimenting a man by calling them a woman, I can start to get behind your logic.

It's neither positive or negative. To be clear, it doesn't apply to them at all.

That's why calling a woman mannish is NOT an insult to men. But it is exactly the same kind of insult as calling a man girlish, which again, is NOT an insult to women.

[dactylic hexameter]

That's like saying that calling a white man "a n*****" isn't insulting to black people. Or calling a black man a 'cracker' isn't insulting to white people. Because

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

It's neither positive nor negative. To be clear, it doesn't apply to them at all.

That premise is simply false. If it's an insult to you, it's an insult to me too.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Because to call a woman 'mannish' is a comment on her appearance. Masculine-looking men are praised, masculine-looking women are sometimes mocked.

Calling a man 'girly' is to comment on his character. Weak and emotionally unstable women are NOT praised; they're examples of all that's traditionally considered wrong with women.

By calling a cowardly(for example) man 'girly', you say that he is diplaying negative characteristics associated with women. By calling a woman mannish, you're implying that she's muscular, angular, maybe even hairy - all things that men tend towards more than women but that are NOT negative for men.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Fuck it. I will ask it.

Why is it an insult to a woman to call a 'cowardly' guy girly? I woman that declines a fight with a 200 pound man is not going to be called 'cowardly'. She is at a physical disadvantage. She is expected to decline the boxing match, or whatever, because women are physically, generally, weaker than men.

If a 200 pound man responds to a fight with a 200 pound man the same way a 125 pound woman would (to decline); that is 'girly'. Big deal.

Men and women are different. We are physically not as strong (generally speaking) then men. Why is this considered a bad thing by some women? We have strengths that they lack also.

[Jaglavak]

What Nzinga said.

[Uthrecht]

If the woman accepts a fight with a 125 pound man, is she manly?

[Roo]

Ooh, ooh. Bitch fight. Women mud wrestling.

:: pulls up lawn chair::

[Nzinga, Seated]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

If the woman accepts a fight with a 125 pound man, is she manly?

Well...I wouldn't use that term, but I could see how one would. The average 125 man is stronger than the average 125 woman...naturally more muscle. So, yeah, I can see how one might call her 'manly' in that most female boxers would be boxing other female boxers. Most male boxers would be fighting male boxers. To take my boxing example to the extreme.

ETA: Also, I chose those weights because I think men, on average, are larger than women, in addition to being more muscular. So a man and woman both 125 doesn't make my point quite as well, but I think it still works.

[Uthrecht]

Okay, do you mind if I take it to a personal level? If you got into a scrap with a similar-sized guy, and whupped him, would you consider it a compliment if the onlookers called you manly for it? I just wanted to walk the exercise through. If you don't have a problem with that, then I'm done - for a man to be called womanly is an insult, for a woman to be called manly in the reverse situation is a compliment.

[Metallic Squink]

I have to agree with Helen's Eidolon on this one. It is insulting to women to call a man girly. I don't see it as a judgement of his physical abilities or physical characteristics but rather his mental or emotional strength. Usually, when a man is called "girly" it's because he's crying or being a coward. The implication here is that girls are crybabies and cowards. The insult is generic to all women since it's used in a generic way - "girly" implies that all girls act this way or at the very least, people who act this way are acting like some or most girls.

Perhaps in specific instances, it's not applicable to ALL girls but at the very least, you are stereotyping and generalizing girls/women by using this term.

[KidVermicious]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

If the woman accepts a fight with a 125 pound man, is she manly?

I thought we called that "shrill".

Please don't hurt me.

[KidVermicious]

To contribute something real to the thread, I'm going to say when a man assigns "feminine" attributes to another man, it's almost always an insult. If the man in question didn't feel that such attributes were inferior, he wouldn't use them as an insult. I'll buy that he may not intend to directly offend the fairer sex, and is confused when he's accused of that, but he does reveal his sexism, which is almost as bad.

[Metallic Squink]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

Okay, do you mind if I take it to a personal level? If you got into a scrap with a similar-sized guy, and whupped him, would you consider it a compliment if the onlookers called you manly for it? I just wanted to walk the exercise through. If you don't have a problem with that, then I'm done - for a man to be called womanly is an insult, for a woman to be called manly in the reverse situation is a compliment.

I would not want to be called manly. If I kicked some guy's ass, I would want someone to say "Damn, that bitch can fight!"

[Falcon]

Actually, if a woman takes someone on, people will say she's got balls. Some folks will say "ovaries" instead, but usually it's balls.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated

Why is it an insult to a woman to call a 'cowardly' guy girly? I woman that declines a fight with a 200 pound man is not going to be called 'cowardly'. She is at a physical disadvantage. She is expected to decline the boxing match, or whatever, because women are physically, generally, weaker than men.

Because it's not about whether the person is likely to win or not. It's about the moral characteristics. If the term was only applied when discussing getting into fights or carrying heavy things, that could possibly maybe sort of be a reasonable argument, but it's not. It's also used for stuff like bearing pain, having courage to do non-physical things, being stoic in the face of emotion, etc.

[Helen's Eidolon]

Originally Posted by Darmund

There are guys who are bluntly honest about the way guys think... and there are guys who get laid. My girlfriend doesn't know I post here as far as I know.

But still, no comment.

And you know what? Truthfully, I'll take that. People have different opinions. But at least have the good sense to be somewhat ashamed of your sexist thoughts.

[DogMom]

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

And you know what? Truthfully, I'll take that. People have different opinions. But at least have the good sense to be somewhat ashamed of your sexist thoughts.

Huh, okay then, since it went there.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the commercials (and sitcoms) that portray men as completely helpless in the house, and generally as incompetent morons who can't do anything right?

[Helen's Eidolon]

Hate 'em. I'm an equal-opportunity PC bitch.

[Metallic Squink]

Originally Posted by DogMom

Huh, okay then, since it went there.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of the commercials (and sitcoms) that portray men as completely helpless in the house, and generally as incompetent morons who can't do anything right?

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'm going to answer anyway. These commercials drive me nuts! I'm sensitive to any gender stereotyping at all - positive or negative. I also hate the commercials for cleaning products that only ever show women and lawn care commericals that only ever show men. Is it really that uncommon for a woman to mow the lawn or a man to clean a toilet?

[DogMom]

Okay then, just checking.

ETA, and completely apropos to nothing...

My edit button changed colors. Used to be it was the same color as the quote button. Now it's some sort of misbegotten purple.

[Helen's Eidolon]

And, this has all only been addressing part of what bothers me.

It's all well and good to say it's not offensive to women to say that men being girly is bad, but what about the men?

Your insistence on traditional gender roles and stereotypes is stupid, antiquated, and just as misandrist as it is misogynistic. Who the fuck are you to say it's "bad" for a man to be like a woman? And what does that even mean? How is it "bad" for a man to wear a skirt, wear makeup, raise children (that's your example, not mine) or cry?

[Contrapuntal]

Originally Posted by DogMom

Okay then, just checking.

ETA, and completely apropos to nothing...

My edit button changed colors. Used to be it was the same color as the quote button. Now it's some sort of misbegotten purple.

See here.

[Algorithm]

Originally Posted by Metallic Squink

Usually, when a man is called "girly" it's because he's crying or being a coward.

Because women are typically more open about expressing how they feel. You'll also find men being called "girly" if they talk to other men about "feelings", or if they complain about the difficulty of a physical task. Really I think this says more about the societal expectations (can't show emotion, have to be physically strong) of men than negative feelings toward these female traits. I don't see how it's "offensive" to either sex, more it's just a product of the different roles the sexes have played over time.

Women tend to cry more than men, so considering it more a female than a male trait isn't inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Metallic Squink

The implication here is that girls are crybabies and cowards.

No, the implication is that open expression of emotion is a female characteristic.

[Uthrecht]

Originally Posted by Algorithm

No, the implication is that open expression of emotion is a female characteristic.

And by extension, it is undesirable for men to exhibit female characteristics. It ties in, like you said, to gender roles and stigma attached to going outside them.

Although, I will note that you said men are called girly if they complain about the difficulty of a physical task. To me, being a whiner is a bit more negative to associate with women than expressing their emotions or being willing to weep.

[KidVermicious]

Originally Posted by Algorithm

No, the implication is that open expression of emotion is a female characteristic.

With the further implication that the man is somehow failing in his manhood. "Crybaby" is not a term of endearment between guys, it's an insult by extension. "Girls cry, girls are weak, you cry, ergo you are as weak as a girl".

[Algorithm]

...

[Illuminati Primus]

Can I chime in as the owner of a pair of testicles who is entirely uninterested in the male gender identity? It's not that I don't like being male, I just don't understand why people other than me get to decide how I should behave or what I should do based on my gender. It sucks just as much for a man as it does for a woman.

All these references to "men are often ridiculed by other men when they show emotions" is a bit sad - if your friends don't give you emotional support when you need it then they're not really friends. Are men supposed to be emotionless robots or something?

Saying that I'm not immune to using gendered language - I've referred to people of either genders as whiney little bitches. Like Helen I'm equal ops on my insults.

[KidVermicious]

Whether you removed your quote or not, that's a valid observance... I used crybaby because it'd been referenced in the thread already. What about my aquaintance who accuses fellows of having been "kicked in the tampon" any time they complain louder than he thinks is appropriate. How's that fly with you

[Algorithm]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

And by extension, it is undesirable for men to exhibit female characteristics. It ties in, like you said, to gender roles and stigma attached to going outside them.

Yes, agreed. I also think the stigma attached is unfortunate.

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

Although, I will note that you said men are called girly if they complain about the difficulty of a physical task. To me, being a whiner is a bit more negative to associate with women than expressing their emotions or being willing to weep.

Well, let's take out the whining part then. Expression of physical strength is a "male" characteristic and any male unwilling or unable to express it may be called "girly". Again, it says more about the expectations men are expected to conform to. Being physically weak is not a bad thing.

Hell, my brother once questioned my manhood when I didn't want mustard on a hot dog. It doesn't mean being a picky eater is a bad thing, just apparently not something that he thought at the time a "man" should express.

Originally Posted by KidVermicious

With the further implication that the man is somehow failing in his manhood. "Crybaby" is not a term of endearment between guys, it's an insult by extension. "Girls cry, girls are weak, you cry, ergo you are as weak as a girl".

Sorry about the ninja edit above. I agree there is negative stigma attached to either sex crying (one of the links in my googling suggested it's worse for women), but I tend to find it's a different comparison when a crying man is called "girly" versus being called a "baby". In the former, it's reminding the man of the gender role he's expected to conform to, and the latter can be applied to either men or women. Calling crying "girly" isn't "bad" or "good", it's just an (unfortunate) statement on societal gender roles.

Originally Posted by KidVermicious

What about my aquaintance who accuses fellows of having been "kicked in the tampon" any time they complain louder than he thinks is appropriate. How's that fly with you

I think it's the same thing, a little more crudely put. Reinforcement of the gender role the one making the comment thinks the receiver should be conforming to. It's not a value judgment on the act of complaining itself.

I probably wouldn't spend a lot of time with someone who used phrases like "kicked in the tampon".

[KidVermicious]

Yoooooo just started using a lotta big words, and I gotta be honest, my eyes start to glaze over as soon as I see "gender roles".

But if I'm understanding you, I don't think I agree. I find a phrase like "kicked in the tampon" to be insulting to women on several levels, mostly because I percieve an implication that "such womanish behavior is beneath a proper man". If other folks don't percieve that, well, cool I guess.

[Uthrecht]

Originally Posted by Algorithm

Sorry about the ninja edit above. I agree there is negative stigma attached to either sex crying (one of the links in my googling suggested it's worse for women), but I tend to find it's a different comparison when a crying man is called "girly" versus being called a "baby". In the former, it's reminding the man of the gender role he's expected to conform to, and the latter can be applied to either men or women. Calling crying "girly" isn't "bad" or "good", it's just an (unfortunate) statement on societal gender roles.

I'm a little confused here. At the top you mention a negative stigma on crying for both genders. At the end you say calling it girly isn't bad or good, just a statement on gender roles, and unfortunate. If you think the statement is reinforcing an unfortunate negative stigma, I would have to call that bad.

[AHunter3]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

What I don't get here, is how using the embodying term for a person (woman) to insult someone of another type (man) could possibly be a positive to the first person. If you are saying that you are complimenting a man by calling them a woman, I can start to get behind your logic.

I don't understand how anyone can fail to get it.

if as a means of insulting you, a person on this board, I were to refer to you contemptuously as a "domebo", would you really think that someone reading that, who is a registered member over at domebo, would not find it inherently OFFENSIVE that folks over here use "domebo" as a put-down towards each other?

Political Linguistics lesson: when words have two uses, and one of them is laden with offensive meaning, the other meaning is going to inherit some of those connotations, and the dual meaning itself becomes a way of asserting that an equivalence exists. In other words you can't have "gay" meaning "having a sexual preference for folks of the same sex" and also use "gay" to mean "eye-rollingly dismissable and insufficiently of any true worth" and not expect the gay folks to say "Yo, asshole, what IS your problem with gay folks that you use 'that's so gay' to denigrate movies or music or other things you do not care for?".

You do not get to say to a white person you're mad at "You fucking nigger" and then make the claim that no black person has any reason to be angry because hey, it was not directed at them. Nor do you get to say "that word only means 'black' anyhow, what's the big deal?" Because words have the meanings that ongoing contexts and history have given them. Nigger is all about slavery and the contempt of expressing "I own you as a piece of property".

By the same token you can't use "bitch" or "cunt" and pretend that those words are not offensive to women, or that it is not offense to women to use them to denigrate male people.

[Ellis Dee]

For those who don't understand the concept of "bad" behavior/attribute for a man, that means "less attractive to women." Conversely, that same behavior/attribute in a woman probably is attractive to men.

Originally Posted by Helen's Eidolon

Calling a man 'girly' is to comment on his character. Weak and emotionally unstable women are NOT praised; they're examples of all that's traditionally considered wrong with women.

Who says? I would argue that men are attracted to women who are weaker (and shorter) than them, just as women are attracted to men who are stronger (and taller) than they are.

Frankly, I've never met anyone who thinks that women being weak(er than men) is in any way, shape or form a bad thing. I think you're projecting personal insecurities into your argument.

Your whole argument seems to boil down to if it's a negative trait in one gender, that trait can't be applied disparagingly to the other gender without being offensive. If it's a positive trait, the disparaging comparison is just fine. And you, apparently, get to decide whether the trait is negative or not. (Women being weak isn't a negative trait in my book.)

So let's see, a positive trait for women applied disparagingly to a man. How about soft? As in: Damn, you've got chick hands! Or how about razzing the swim team for shaving their legs and underarms?

As for your accusation of sexism, I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge and embrace the fact that men and women are, in fact, different.

Also, you're aware that AHunter is accusing you of the exact same thing you're accusing me of, right? His whole post is arguing that negative = offensive to the party of comparison, so calling a woman "mannish" is just as bad as any "kicked in the tampon" type insult. And he seems to think this is painfully self-evident.

[Ellis Dee]

Another example that just occurred to me is insulting thin, small-chested women by comparing them to a 10-year old boy. How does that fit into everyone's arguments?

It is no exception for my argument: It's not insulting to men.

As a direct corollary, crying like a little girl.

[AHunter3]

Also, you're aware that AHunter is accusing you of the exact same thing you're accusing me of, right? His whole post is arguing that negative = offensive to the party of comparison, so calling a woman "mannish" is just as bad as any "kicked in the tampon" type insult. And he seems to think this is painfully self-evident.

Sort of. If you were to call a woman "mannish" in such a way as to imply contempt or to indicate that this is indeed intended as a sneer, then yeah it's insulting to men.

I think I see where you're going with this... Q: Isn't there room on some 'essentialist' level to disparage a woman as 'mannish' where the disparagement in its entirety consists of 'you have the traits of the wrong gender', as opposed to 'you have the the disgusting characteristics that are typical of the other gender' ?? Because if so, that AHunter3 dude is full of it, that would not be an insult to a man because yeesh a man is supposed to be mannish, yes?

Sure. A narrow range of physical attributes ONLY. And it makes for rather cruel humor or callous form of contempt, since who the heck can be held responsible for most aspects of their physical morphology? OK so what's-her-name over there is 'mannish' due to having a square jaw and no mammaries and an Adam's apple larynx. Is it logical to argue that you could disparagingly say she is 'mannish' for that and, in so doing, not be offering a backhanded insult to the male folks? Yeah. But it would be rather ugly of you to point at that and make a big deal about it, what's it got to do with anything like character traits or behavior?

And outside of physical attributes, you're on very quaky grounds trying to assert that any Behavior A is behavior that would be admiration-worthy (or at least whatever-acceptible) in a female but ridicule-worthy or contempt-worthy if exhibited in a male. Or vice versa. Wanna try, go ahead, but you'll be digging yourself in deeper.

Likewise for Personality Trait B. Same forewarning.

[AHunter3]

crying like a little girl

If it is being said to a man as a disparagement, it either IS or IS NOT different from "crying like a little CHILD". Gendering it is indeed making an assertion about behavior that will open you to fairly earned skewering as a sexist.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by AHunter3

If it is being said to a man as a disparagement, it either IS or IS NOT different from "crying like a little CHILD". Gendering it is indeed making an assertion about behavior that will open you to fairly earned skewering as a sexist.

So the 10-year old boy quip is sexist on the exact same grounds, right?

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by AHunter3

Wanna try, go ahead, but you'll be digging yourself in deeper.

That's pretty funny considering I'm not the one who made a sweeping proclamation about a painfully obvious universal truth and then had to backpedal admitting exceptions one post later.

[AHunter3]

insulting thin, small-chested women by comparing them to a 10-year old boy

That one? No, that's the physical exception, which, if by

I'm not the one who made a sweeping proclamation about a painfully obvious universal truth and then had to backpedal admitting exceptions one post later

you meant to imply that I was the one who did so, I think you overestimate the pluralness of the exception I noted.

[Ellis Dee]

On an unrelated note, have we ever had a thread with a good use of tags? Maybe that feature isn't useful here.

I like snark as much as the next guy, but come on.

[AHunter3]

:snerk:

[Algorithm]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

I'm a little confused here. At the top you mention a negative stigma on crying for both genders. At the end you say calling it girly isn't bad or good, just a statement on gender roles, and unfortunate. If you think the statement is reinforcing an unfortunate negative stigma, I would have to call that bad.

It's not bad or good insofar as being "girly" isn't "bad" or "good". What's unfortunate is this conception that a man should act this way, and if he acts this other way, well then he's doing something wrong.

It's like anal sex. You can't infer one's sexual orientation based on the fact that they enjoy being on the receiving end of anal penetration, but there's a societal expectation that straight men don't enjoy that. "You like anal sex, what are you, gay?" No value judgment on homosexuality or the act of anal sex, only a reinforcement of an unfortunate stigma attached to straight men who enjoy receiving anal penetration.

[Ichigodaisuki]

.02, Men get denigrated for doing things that are not MAN-Like.
The insult lies in saying you are not a Man.
This is not direct insult to women, in an indirect manner.
The most common thing to compare or contrast man with is woman.
For centuries. Why make it into so much more? Ellis Dee throws like a turtle.

OMG, the turtles are offended.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Algorithm

What's unfortunate is this conception that a man should act this way, and if he acts this other way, well then he's doing something wrong.

It's not unfortunate at all; it's natural.

And he's not wrong to act in a non-traditional way. But doing so will make him less attractive to the opposite sex. Actually, I take that back; because acting in a non-traditional way will make you less appealing to the opposite sex, it is wrong. Wrong in the sense that the primary function of life is to reproduce.

It is of course possible to go too far in the other direction, but it seems to me that the typical social pressure males put on other males to not act like a girl are a natural way to try and keep males attractive to women. Ladies, if you're on a date, and some random guy starts up some shit with the two of you, do you want your date to cower behind you, run away, or start crying? I'm guessing no. This isn't an "unfortunate conception that a man should act this way." It's called "man up, motherfucker."

On the tangential point that has come up where people jump through hoops to try and make a distinction between women's looks and men's behavior, I think you're missing the point entirely. Men generally evaluate potential partners based on looks, while women generally evaluate on behavior. So it's only natural that the insults intended to reduce non-traditional gender roles would reflect this: Women shouldn't appear mannish and men shouldn't act like girls. At least not if they want to land a mate.