You're a waffling agnostic! Well you're an arrogant atheist!

[prr]

Mod noteWenz here: I started this thread. Since Ed's thread is getting hijacked to hell, I'm putting the offending posts here. Poke away.[/mod note]

Okay, but what do you make of the argument that you've got enough information to make up your mind, just like you've got enough info to think that eating pb&j sammiches won't kill you?

It MIGHT, ya never know and all, but you would be pretty timid NEVER to eat PB&j or walk around without a hat in wintertime because someone once suggested that doing so is dangerous. You made up your mind, you eat whatever you like and you choose to cover your head or not as you think best. You're in charge.

Except with Gawdawmitey. There, you're a helpless wuss--"Oh, it's so confusing, can't make up my mind about the sky-pixie watching me jerk off and pick my nose, I don[t know what to do..." bbbyyy. Please.

Further, by pretending to be overwhelmed by all the Unknowable Metaphysical Stuff about the world before your own two good eyes, you're enabling all these Holy Rollers and obnoxious Jesus freaks to count you as among the non-atheistic hordes.

Grow a pair.

Okay, that's the argument: what do you make of it?

[Orual]

Originally Posted by prr

Further, by pretending to be overwhelmed by all the Unknowable Metaphysical Stuff about the world before your own two good eyes, you're enabling all these Holy Rollers and obnoxious Jesus freaks to count you as among the non-atheistic hordes.

Grow a pair.

Okay, that's the argument: what do you make of it?

[butting in] I can hardly think of a worse reason to change my worldview than to help you score points in your retarded dick-measuring contests with the Christians.

Also, assuming people are "pretending" about their philosophical/religious understanding makes you look like a belligerent twit. [/butting in]

[prr]

Originally Posted by Orual

[butting in] I can hardly think of a worse reason to change my worldview than to help you score points in your retarded dick-measuring contests with the Christians.

Also, assuming people are "pretending" about their philosophical/religious understanding makes you look like a belligerent twit. [/butting in]

"I HATE ATHEIST PROSYLETIZERS. MYOFB, AND LIVE AND LET LIVE, IS MY MOTTO. "


The lady asked a question. I'm just chiming in with a position she might want to deal with. Or not.

No need to get all in my face.

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by prr

Except with Gawdawmitey. There, you're a helpless wuss--"Oh, it's so confusing, can't make up my mind about the sky-pixie watching me jerk off and pick my nose, I don[t know what to do..." bbbyyy. Please.

Further, by pretending to be overwhelmed by all the Unknowable Metaphysical Stuff about the world before your own two good eyes, you're enabling all these Holy Rollers and obnoxious Jesus freaks to count you as among the non-atheistic hordes.

Grow a pair.

Okay, that's the argument: what do you make of it?

Not much. Why would anyone want to join a group (atheists)* that shows itself to be so nasty? Shitting on someone's beliefs is no way to separate them from those beliefs; it tends to have the opposite effect. What does it matter to you what anyone else believes? You're as bad as the evangelicals and other rabid proselytizers--condemning others for not believing as you do.



*I know not all atheists are like this, and thank goodness for that.

[prr]

I mean, that is a respectable anti-agnostic position to take, not that I dislike agnostics or anything. But when someone says, "I don't have enough information to make a judgment," why isn't it appropriate that there are ALL sorts of things that she also lacks the information to make an absolute, definitive judgment on, yet she does so in hundreds of other regards every single minute of her life? Agnosticism, to a hard-core atheist, seems like a cop-out. I was asking her what she makes of that argument, how she deals with it.

[prr]

Doesn't matter to me at all what others believe. I encourage them to believe wehatever they like. No skin off my ass. But if you don't want tough questions, why ask for them?

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by prr

I mean, that is a respectable anti-agnostic position to take, not that I dislike agnostics or anything. But when someone says, "I don't have enough information to make a judgment," why isn't it appropriate that there are ALL sorts of things that she also lacks the information to make an absolute, definitive judgment on, yet she does so in hundreds of other regards every single minute of her life? Agnosticism, to a hard-core atheist, seems like a cop-out. I was asking her what she makes of that argument, how she deals with it.

Doesn't matter to me at all what others believe. I encourage them to believe wehatever they like. No skin off my ass. But if you don't want tough questions, why ask for them?

And we replied in kind. If you ask a question in a douchey way, you get dickish answers. It may well be a valid question, but it's asked in an offensive and needlessly provocative manner. Why ask it that way if you can't handle the blow-back? How is uncertainty about the All Mighty like a peanut butter and jelly sandwich? It's not--couching "your" POV in such terms already shows contempt for her position. It's a bit disingenuous now to claim "Hey, I'm a good guy here, just asking tough questions."

[Orual]

Originally Posted by prr

The lady asked a question. I'm just chiming in with a position she might want to deal with. Or not.

No need to get all in my face.

If you can't state your position without being deliberately insulting to those who don't share your beliefs, I don't think it's particularly reasonable to expect sweet, deferential responses.

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

And we replied in kind. If you ask a question in a douchey way, you get dickish answers. It may well be a valid question, but it's asked in an offensive and needlessly provocative manner.

Or what she said.

[prr]

Except I am a good guy just asking tough questions.

The world is all around us, to come to judgments about, based on always insufficient information. That's the problem atheists have with agnostics--they don't want to come to a definitive conclusion, on this one single issue. That seems weak to some atheists. If you don't want to tell me how it isn';t weak, fine. If you want to tell me how unbelievably strong a position it is, also fine. If you want to tell me some flaw in my logic or reasoning, equally fine,

But instead you seem to want to tell me how explaining my position is a vicious personal attack or something of that kind--I don't see the point to that, other than saying "Oh, fuck this discussion--you're a freaking asshole amd you're mean and you're a terrible person." That's kinda boring.

[prr]

"Can't make up my mind" suggests several distinct possibilities (and please remember I don't give a shit which, if any, of these it is in Ed's case):

1) intellectually lazy--just doesn't want to do the rigorous work required to find out more information to enable him or her to decide if there's a God or not

2) timid--scared that what he or she will find out will seem too disturbing to live with

3) socially intimidated--afraid to alienate those he or she has grown up around, fear of being isolated socially

4) apathetic--not "not knowing" so much as "not caring" about metaphysical issues

and several other categories I can imagine. Which ones apply to Ed? Dunno. None of them? Then what's her major malfunction here?

[prr]

Originally Posted by WednesdayAddams

mod note:If we could steer the thread back to being about the agnostic person and her views, that would be spectacular. Anyone wishing to castigate anyone else regarding their religious views, their atrocious manners, threats of going to hell to burn forever, or general complaints about my shitty moderation, please kindly do so in the Pit. I'm making this a general note to all three of you. Thank you so very much.[/mod note]

is my post #34 ok? thx

[Metallic Squink]

Originally Posted by prr

is my post #34 ok? thx

Probably not since you imply that Ed must have a malfunction because she is agnostic.

[Uthrecht]

Originally Posted by Metallic Squink

Probably not since you imply that Ed must have a malfunction because she is agnostic.

Well, it's more affronting, but in the same spirit as posts 11 and 14.

[prr]

Originally Posted by Metallic Squink

Probably not since you imply that Ed must have a malfunction because she is agnostic.

What's YOUR major malfunction, Private?

[prr]

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

Well, first of all, I'd like to thank prr for being an obnoxious ass.

That's silly. It's like thanking me for being six feet tall, or for having blue eyes. It's just who and what I am, Ed.

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

Are you saying that there really is plenty of evidence, and I'm just afraid to make a decision? Because no, there really isn't plenty of evidence either way.

No, there's absolutely no evidence that there is a God. None. Zilch. Our Nada who art in Nade, Nada be thy name, and all that....If you think you have evidence (that I haven't already shot out of the sky) then share it with me and we'll see if it's overwhelmingly clear and indisputable evidence, or not. I strongly suspect NOT, as folks have been trotting their evidence out there, and a child, or an obnoxious ass, could show anyone who's trying with at least one buttock why it doesn't count as evidence. I'm saying you've known since the time you were seven that it's a colossal spoonful of hooey you've been swallowing, and you know it--you just won't say so, which is your right, and perfectly cool with me. You can do what you like. Well, you can do anything you like, but I don't have to buy it, and I don't.

.

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

I have years and years of evidence of people eating peanut butter and jelly without ill effects, and I can be reasonably sure that eating it won't hurt me.

But can you be positive? Many people think pb&j sammiches (w/o milk, that is) are diabolical and will cause you seize up and die on the spot. I'm one of them. But you're choosing of your own free will to disregard my sound advice, and you're thinking for yourself, and coming to a positive conclusion, that you can eat pb&j as you see fit, not as I or anyone else demands. Good for you. Now apply that principle to larger issues. See? Not hard at all.

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

But admitting that you don't know something is, in my opinion, a sign of character. I'm willing to be wrong, and that's ok. You know the main reason, right this moment, that I don't want to be an atheist? It's because most of the ones I know are nasty hateful instigators like you, and I don't want to become that.

Being honest with yourself is the truest sign of character there is. Atheists aren't a group that admits or rejects people--they either are atheists or they're not. Most of us are shitty, corrupt, selfish beings, but all in all, we're the finest group of shitty, corrupt, selfish beings on this planet. You'll become one of us whenever you're ready, and not a second before.

[WednesdayAddams]

No. prr, either you really like the Box or you simply don't understand why you were Boxed the first time. If you want to debate the existence of God, please open a new thread. You've gone beyond asking questions and are now merely poking the agnostic with a stick. Knock it off.

[Jeff]

"Where's your messiah now?"

:poke: :poke: :poke:

[u wan buy dvd?]

Originally Posted by prr

what do you make of the argument

In other words "I'm going to start an argument"

[The Futility of Nihilism]

I just want to mock every single one of you who have religious beliefs, whether those beliefs involve the existence of God, or the non-existence of God, or anything in between.

[Lord Blackmore]

Mmm. Waffles.

[Parthenokinesis]

I tend to identify as agnostic, mainly because I don't care enough about it to have a firm opinion. Actually I identify as apatheistic when I get to make up my own words, I don't care if there is a god. That and fundamentalist atheists are just as pretensious and self righteous as the other types of fundie out there.

[ulfhjorr]

Originally Posted by The Futility of Nihilism

I just want to mock every single one of you who have religious beliefs, whether those beliefs involve the existence of God, or the non-existence of God, or anything in between.

What if we have non-religious non-beliefs about the non-existence of gods?

[Wolf Larsen]

Originally Posted by prr

Mod noteWenz here: I started this thread. Since Ed's thread is getting hijacked to hell, I'm putting the offending posts here. Poke away.[/mod note]

Okay, but what do you make of the argument that you've got enough information to make up your mind, just like you've got enough info to think that eating pb&j sammiches won't kill you?

It MIGHT, ya never know and all, but you would be pretty timid NEVER to eat PB&j or walk around without a hat in wintertime because someone once suggested that doing so is dangerous. You made up your mind, you eat whatever you like and you choose to cover your head or not as you think best. You're in charge.

Except with Gawdawmitey. There, you're a helpless wuss--"Oh, it's so confusing, can't make up my mind about the sky-pixie watching me jerk off and pick my nose, I don[t know what to do..." bbbyyy. Please.

Further, by pretending to be overwhelmed by all the Unknowable Metaphysical Stuff about the world before your own two good eyes, you're enabling all these Holy Rollers and obnoxious Jesus freaks to count you as among the non-atheistic hordes.

Grow a pair.

Okay, that's the argument: what do you make of it?

I giggle. The visible universe is over 27 billion light years across. It contains billions of galaxies, many bigger than our own. It has existed for over 13 billion years. If the r squared denominator in the gravity equation isn't EXACTLY 2, there are no stable planetary orbits. If several other fundamental physics constants do not have the exact relationship we see, then atoms are not possible. Other ratios just make chemistry not work. Physics has done much, but it can't explain why the universe exists and why physics and logic work the way they do.

And you say we have the evidence. This is like a small child saying it has never seen an elephant so they do not exist.

Given our short history, limited knowledge and small area that we can search, it is an intellectually honest position to admit ignorance of potential super-beings.

[eleanorigby]

I don't think of agnosticism and atheism as on a scale. I don't think there's a spectrum that goes RabidZealot /Devout/Non-practicing, but professed/Agnostic/Atheist.


I see them as distinctly different entities--and one person may be all them within one lifetime. So, the question of "why not take that last step to atheism?" is a non sequitur for me. If I was asked to delineate my position with a gun to my head, it would be agnostic. I just don't know--and I know I don't know. I'm comfortable not knowing. Isn't that what any of our belief systems are for, anyway--comfort? Unless they're for smugness and inclusion into The People Who Really Know Group (both religious and atheist).

[crackrat]

Agnosticism and (a)theism are really more orthogonal. I definitely come down firmly on the the atheist side. But I am slightly agnostic, in that I admit that there is not enough evidence to PROVE that no gods exist. Similarly, it is possible to believe in God but have some question as to the correctness of your belief.

[Guinastasia]

I consider myself more of a vague theist -- I believe in god, but no specific religion. (Basically, all religions have some kernel of truth -- or they're just different ways of reaching god)

If anyone has a problem with that? Kiss my ass. That means you, prr.

[The Futility of Nihilism]

Originally Posted by ulfhjorr

What if we have non-religious non-beliefs about the non-existence of gods?

I don't have to mock you, you just did it to yourself.

[prr]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

If anyone has a problem with that? Kiss my ass. That means you, prr.

Spread 'em if you got 'em, sweetcakes.

[prr]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

? Unless they're for smugness and inclusion into The People Who Really Know Group (both religious and atheist).

But atheists don't know squat, rigs, and don't pretend to. That's where you read us totally wrong.

Srsly. Ask an atheist how the universe originated and you'll get an answer like, "You mean the mechanics of the Big bang? You mean what caused the Big Bang to happen? I don't have a clue, and maybe we'll never get a clue. But I haven't seen any evidence at all that it was caused by a guy in a toga and a beard, or a sky-pixie, or the the Holy Spirit, or Zeus's granddaddy, so til you come up with something, I'll stick with 'I don't know.' And I'm okay with that."

Why you insist on pretending that atheists are passing off knowledge where there is none is beyond me, unless you find that reasoning convenient based on previous arguments with theists obnoxiously pretending to know things of which they're absolutely ignorant.

[Uthrecht]

Originally Posted by prr

Srsly. Ask an atheist how the universe originated and you'll get an answer like, "You mean the mechanics of the Big bang? You mean what caused the Big Bang to happen? I don't have a clue, and maybe we'll never get a clue. But I haven't seen any evidence at all that it was caused by a guy in a toga and a beard, or a sky-pixie, or the the Holy Spirit, or Zeus's granddaddy, so til you come up with something, I'll stick with 'I don't know.' And I'm okay with that."

Perhaps you and I are using different definitions, then. Which would be understandable, and no big deal.

I would expect an agnostic to say that they do not have enough knowledge to say whether there is a god out there somewhere, and so they stick with "I don't know".

I would expect an atheist to say that there is no god out there, and the matter is settled.

It seemed like Wed and Giraffe were using the definitions I was expecting, in that Ed was saying that she couldn't say whether and what kind of god was out there and they appeared to be asking why she didn't finish the job and decide that there wasn't one.

ETA: It occurs to me that there could be two schools of thought about what agnosticism is, or what could be contained in it. One might be that there is a god or something out there, but that we don't/can't know what it is. The other is that there is simply not enough information to say whether there is something out there or not. Either of those two I would put more in the agnostic camp than the atheist camp, but that's my perspective.

[prr]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

I would expect an atheist to say that there is no god out there, and the matter is settled.

Why would I state as a matter of fact that something doesn't exist? This is an error on your part. I don't say (other than when vexed and using shorthand) "There is no God," but rather "You, who has the responsibility to show proof for your assertions, have shown zero proof for this assertion of yours that God exists, therefore I decline to recognize your assertion as valid."

Nothing is settled, IOW, just settled to my satisfaction.

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

hey prr thanks for continuing to ask the TOUGH QUESTRIONS

youre like the michael moore of a/theism

[Darmund]

Agnostic means lack of knowledge. Ergo, agnostics don't know what they believe. That's why they're lucky to have prr here to tell them what they believe: that they're really atheists who are too chickenshit to admit there is no god. He's just trying to help, you see.

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

man these question is tough on me guys

i mean FCK

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

"i am a good guy asking the TOUGH QUESTIONS, like do you believe in gods! I put the system on trial"

- PRR, after putting on his trenchcoat

[prr]

Agnosticism is a weak position. "Was Stalin a good leader?"

"Not enough information to tell for sure. What do you mean by 'good'? What do you mean by 'leader'? What do you mean by 'Stalin'? What do you mean by 'what'?"

That's an agnostic for you. Life is short. Make a call. Grow a pair. Use your brains.

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

"i've spent 6.6 hours of my life this week arguing that Satna Claus doesnt exist"

- PRR, smug and feeling intelligent

[Darmund]

Team Atheist: you're either with us, or you're against us!

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

"grow a pair and man up, put some effort into these completely inconsequential metaphysical issues that have no meaning since youre just a lump of meat!"

- prr, being as smart as he can be

[Lord Blackmore]

TBH, I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to announce to the world that they're a theist, agnostic or atheist. To me it's just *shrug*, okay fine, please explain why I should care what your (meaning anyone's) religious beliefs or non-beliefs are.

I understand people creating an "ask the ..." thread, since it gives people the opportunity to learn about something. But other wise, why care?

ETA: PRR, if you were boxed already over this topic, I'd advise you to not taunt the mods a second time. 4 days in the box like I got was NOT fun.

[WednesdayAddams]

Originally Posted by Uthrecht

I would expect an atheist to say that there is no god out there, and the matter is settled.

It seemed like Wed and Giraffe were using the definitions I was expecting, in that Ed was saying that she couldn't say whether and what kind of god was out there and they appeared to be asking why she didn't finish the job and decide that there wasn't one.

I'm not sure about Giraffe, but I wasn't asking so much 'why not finish the job' so much as 'what do you see or feel that keeps you from determining there is no god?' I ask (as I ask all agnostics) because however unlikely, it's possible she knows or has found something I've missed.

I doubt the matter will ever be settled one way or the other, but I tend to explain my atheism in this way: Thus far, we have yet to find anything in our exploration of this world or the universe that we can point to and call 'God.' Based on our current understanding and all available data, the conclusion I come to is that there is no god. However, I am certainly open to presentation of evidence. Not of works through people, not of 'feelings,' but evidence of an actual entity to which we can point and call 'God.'

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

Originally Posted by WednesdayAddams

because however unlikely, it's possible she knows or has found something I've missed.

[prr]

Originally Posted by Andrew Jackson's Hair

"i've spent 6.6 hours of my life this week arguing that Satna Claus doesnt exist"

- PRR, smug and feeling intelligent

Certainly feeling smug and intelligent enough to know I'm not wasting another second discussing shit with the likes of you, Andy. Next?

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

ps linking to original thread is good idea in splinter kthx

[WednesdayAddams]

Good point. Is here.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by Darmund

Team Atheist: you're either with us, or you're against us!

Nope that is only the more obnoxious ones like PRR. Most atheists are not as obnoxious about it.

I identify agnostic as while I doubt there is a God or Gods, I am not sure. I am however sure every organized religion is not correct and many have been a major problem throughout human history.

If there is a God the arrogance to think anyone knows neutral gender possessive pronoun's will is just beyond comprehension to me. The stories are no more valid then the myths and legends of the dead religions of the past. At least the Unitarians seemed to not believe in anything too definite.

As to Stalin, clearly he sucked at nearly all levels. An evil ass without question. This has nothing to do with the existence of God though. Silly analogy if you ask me.

[prr]

But do you KNOW he sucked? Maybe he was really kind to kittens? Do you know that he wasn't? Can you PROVE it?

[Andrew Jackson's Hair]

Originally Posted by prr

Certainly feeling smug and intelligent enough to know I'm not wasting another second discussing shit with the likes of you, Andy. Next?

so you can go back to asking the "tough" questions instead of answering the one about why its so important to you to argue about something that you assert is meaningless

:scitard:

"has anyone seen my training wheels?"

- prr on the way to the argument

[Darmund]

Originally Posted by What Exit?

Nope that is only the more obnoxious ones like PRR. Most atheists are not as obnoxious about it.

Thank you, Captain Obvious. (Hint: I'm an atheist.)

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by prr

But do you KNOW he sucked? Maybe he was really kind to kittens? Do you know that he wasn't? Can you PROVE it?

Even if he was nice to kittens he was still one of the worse assholes to ever have power. Nothing to prove.

Not believing in God does not appear to be the same thing to me.