Would you ever cross a picket line?

[Nonny J. Nonnington III]

Would you, as a consumer, ever cross a picket line to shop?

The closest supermarket to me is Stop & Shop. It's few quick minutes down the road and I know where everything is* so I go there without thinking too much about it. However, the employees have been without a contract for months, and negotiations broke down even with a Federal mediator.

For me, it's a no brainer. I don't cross picket lines. Period. End of discussion. In addition, my backup supermarket is Market Basket who is owned by a benevolent and caring owner.** So, no need to go to S&S other than convenience, and every reason to give their competition my food money.

But I was a bit surprised to see that there were cars in the parking lot, presumably by people shopping inside. Surprised because my city had a number of large companies that had strong unions and employed a number of people. I'm really not passing judgment (much) because I don't know their story. I just couldn't do it myself.


*Actually, I don't anymore. For some reason, every couple of years they move everything around and it takes a month for me to learn the new locations. But, that's not enough to make me not want to go there anymore.

*If you have the time, look up the consumer boycott of Market Basket after a hostile takeover by one of the co-owners who wanted to slash wages to line his own pockets. Employees picketed until the current owner was able to buy the chain back. Shoppers stayed away in droves. I'm pretty sure that some business schools have started to incorporate the who thing in their curricula.

[hajario]

I learn about the specific issues and depending on whose side I agree with the most, I cross or don’t accordingly. In reality, I have only been confronted with this issue three or four times and always with supermarkets. In each of those cases, I didn’t agree with labor so I crossed.

[C2H5OH]

Yes. Fuck the unions. Their argument with management ain't my argument. I don't give a shit.

[stormie]

I, on the other hand, err on the side of not crossing. Until I find that I disagree with employee picket lines, I don't cross 'em. If I am stopping at the store and there is an employee picket line I didn't know about, I'll ask what they are picketing about. So far, I have found the grievances reasonable.

Union yes!

[What Exit?]

I'm not really pro-union, but I still wouldn't cross a picket line. I remember when the Unions got too strong and were hurting the country, now it has swung far, too far the other direction and we could use some Union strength.

[stormie]

some unions got too strong, I think because the formation of the early US unions was so violent, and the union bosses were . . . a little iffy, shall we say?
But the International Ladies Garment Workers' Union, well they are the bees knees.

[What Exit?]

Originally Posted by stormie

some unions got too strong, I think because the formation of the early US unions was so violent, and the union bosses were . . . a little iffy, shall we say?
But the International Ladies Garment Workers' Union, well they are the bees knees.

Probably correct, but wildcat strikes by most notably garbage men were impossible to sympathize with. It got kind of ugly in the 70s into the early 80s for a while.

Actually, did the International Ladies Garment Workers' Union do good in the long run? Did they push too far, are any clothes still made in the USA? I realize it is more complicated then that and country* after county* has happily grabbed up garment making at well below a living wage but it seems like the ILGWU maybe pushed to far in the 70s and hastened the end of their jobs.

* South Korean, Bangladesh, Vietnam among others.

[SmartAleq]

Nope! Not as a consumer, not as a worker--the only time I'd consider it would be if I had to get someone to an emergency room but I'd still feel bad. I'm 100% pro-labor, and if the strikers are being unreasonable they'll have to settle that on their own but I won't break worker support, any more than I'd refuse to support a battered woman even if I also find her annoying enough to need slapped.

[Flying Squid with Goggles]

Originally Posted by stormie

some unions got too strong, I think because the formation of the early US unions was so violent, and the union bosses were . . . a little iffy, shall we say?
But the International Ladies Garment Workers' Union, well they are the bees knees.

Um, is the implication of this post that you think the unions were violent?? What are your thoughts on the owners and Pinkertons and National Guard?

...I have been reading A History of America in Ten Strikes; there's some fascinating and disturbing stuff about violence against the formation of unions in the history of this country.

[JackieLikesVariety]

I would not.

[AuntiePam]

Hell, I scabbed once. Built freezers in St. Cloud, Minnesota, on orders from my employer (same company). I don't know if I would have been fired if I'd refused to go*, but honestly, I was curious about what it was like to work on the shop floor.

I was ashamed though, since I'd been a union member in Seattle (Teamsters), my first husband was union (Laborers and Hodcarriers), and I'd worked for a union (teachers) and worked for lawyers who represented unions (service employees).

So yeah, WTF, Pam!?!

*Probably, because I was forced out a few years later, and one of my manager's complaints about me was that I supported hourly employees over salaried employees.

But no, I don't recall every crossing a picket line.

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by hajario

I learn about the specific issues and depending on whose side I agree with the most, I cross or don’t accordingly. In reality, I have only been confronted with this issue three or four times and always with supermarkets. In each of those cases, I didn’t agree with labor so I crossed.

This exactly. Except so far I have agreed that labor at least had a reasonable point, and didn't cross. But I certainly would if I thought the workers were in the wrong.

[Zeener Diode]

Nope. Never. Don't care what the circumstances are, I won't cross a picket line.

[Wolf Larsen]

Depends on what the strike is about. There was one locally where management was being total buttfaces and I honored the strike. (And the strikers won that one.) Other times I have thought the union was in the wrong and crossed it.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Originally Posted by Nonny J. Nonnington III

I don't cross picket lines. Period. End of discussion.

Avatar + post irony win.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I crossed a picket line to work a couple of times at the Big Public University when I was not a union worker. Faculty had the luxury of symbolically not working but non-union staff would have simply been fired.

In any case I had been in that particular union and thought they sucked. They limit promotions and do their damnedest to keep people from advancing. They want your only benefits to seem to come from their hard negotiating skills, which they didn't have. They lost every strike they staged. I also had to ask (and did) if everything was so terrible for the workers as they argued, didn't all that happen on AFSCME's watch?

I did learn during those strikes that an uncomplicated view of labor as unions good, management bad, tended to be by people who had never held a union job. It was all academic to them and they didn't have the firsthand experience I'd had with AFSCME.

I have a theory that any organization's purpose is superseded by their goal to grow/survive/strengthen as an organization. It's like sociological evolutionary biology. Labor unions put themselves (as an org) before the workers they represent.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by Mr. Plumbean

Labor unions put themselves (as an org) before the workers they represent.

This is true, but it depends on the size of the union, and the size of the body of workers which they represent. Teamsters USA represents the (est.) quarter-million drivers and dockworkers, and have considerable leverage if they should strike. Smaller unions represent smaller batches of employees, and must rely on the goodwill of the company to address workers' grievances. OSHA and the NLRB are government agencies which can assist workers to resolve issues.

[Mr. Plumbean]

It's just one of those irreducible complications. Yes, workers need to organize, but as a matter of sociological principle the organization will become a self-serving entity.

[Sparkers]

Both Detroit newspapers had a strike for some years in the mid 90s. I never bought their papers, but I sometimes read them in libraries. The free weekly and monthly papers were more in line with my budget then. During that strike I was briefly in a union with my first college job. A new contract was up for vote. A union rep asked me to vote for the contract while I was pushing shopping carts. I said nah, I'll read the contract before deciding that. I never got around to reading it, but in retrospect that tactic of harassing people at work seems slimy. I quit that job and later saw different terms on a Now Hiring sign, so that contract was apparently rejected. I still shop at that store chain.

[leafrog]

I wouldn't cross a picket line intentionally, but I honestly can't think of a time when I've had that dilemma.
Both parents were union, and both went on strike during my childhood. Dad was a diesel mechanic at a local sand and gravel and I remember him growling about the scabs crossing the lines. For years afterwards, there was mistrust and hard feelings for coworkers who scabbed.

I'm a teacher and have always taught in independent schools or overseas, and have never had reason nor opportunity to join a union. I'm OK with this; I'm sort of unconventional and working in the bureaucracy of public schools would be challenging for me.
I've found a happy niche in a small community which is dedicated to its teachers and provides good benefits and pay on par with the public schools. I don't necessarily have the job security that I would in a union, but that just means I have to be really good at what I do.

A couple of years ago I met up with some old friends from HS/college. One of them had also gone on to become a teacher, and was very active in his union. I was bummed that once he found out I was a non-union teacher, his attitude changed and he had very little to say to me the rest of the evening. I got the impression that for him non-union = anti-union. Damn it, Clark! You should know me better than that!

[hajario]

As I mentioned, the only opportunity I have had to cross a picket line was at supermarkets in Southern California. In my town we have Vons and Albertsons which are Union and Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods which are not.

But let’s go back to my youth in Los Angeles. The markets had a strike back then and the final settlement was that the current workers got a nice increase in wages in exchange for all future workers getting something substantially less. In every future strike since then, so far as I am aware, they did the same thing. The last time was ten years ago or so. So, if they aren’t going to support their future co-workers, why the fuck should I support them? I would like a “never crossed” to answer this.

During the last big strike, a lot of people didn’t want to cross and so Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s got a lot more business. And they temporarily hired a lot of strikers. When the strike ended, nearly all of them preferred working for the non Union shops and didn’t want go back.

[SmartAleq]

If the unions were more widely prevalent, then workers who dislike their current union representation could get rid of them for a different union. I worked a short term job down in CA polling Kaiser workers for SEIU when a different union was trying to take over their representation. Like anything else in a "free" marketplace, competition improves performance.

[Doyle]

I crossed the Frontier Hotel and Casino's Culinary Workers Union picket line in Las Vegas. It was like a seven year old strike so it had kind of lost any seriousness it may have once had. Dozens of people crossed it every minute.

From Wikipedia:

According to an article in the Las Vegas Sun, the following events occurred during the strike:

17 CWU Local 226 strikers died.

106 babies were born to CWU member mothers who have walked the picket.

The Dunes, Landmark, Sands and Hacienda were all closed and imploded.

More than 21,340 hotel rooms were constructed in the Las Vegas Strip.

Construction on an additional 19,000 rooms and suites was started.

235 of the original 550 strikers had walked the line in shifts manned 24 hours a day.

[Glazer]

Don't have much experience with picket lines. I crossed the line at Publix. But they were still working. I was a vendor delivering developed pictures and picking up film.

And I've crossed IBEW lines a lot in Atlanta. Any job a union shop bid for but didn't get the IBEW would hire temps to picket the jobsite.

[krisolov]

I think I'd honor any picket line I saw, unless I had an educated reason to disagree with the strikers.

I think unions today are much weaker than is perhaps good for us, and would support workers rights more strongly than I might have in the past.

I worked security one summer at a gravel mine where a strike was going on. We spent nights at entrance points and watching over key machinery.

We had a guard vehicle get a window shot out, and of course when we went in to work, we crossed the picket line and got yelled at.

Nothing nefarious other than me taking a truck for a joy ride while bored out of my mind at 3AM.

[Clothahump]

I have crossed picket lines in the past, and would do so in the future. I am not pro-union.

[Mr. Plumbean]

[stormie]

A squiddly aside: no, didn't mean that but didn't was to derail thread with union discussion, which could be long and complex but would probably just be shouty.

[Sunny Daze]

I was part of a group that formed a union (UC teaching assistants). I won't cross picket lines if I can avoid it.

[stormie]

I remember that. Did it help much?

[hajario]

Originally Posted by Sunny Daze

I was part of a group that formed a union (UC teaching assistants). I won't cross picket lines if I can avoid it.

In 1989? Yeah they tried to force me to pay for health insurance that I didn’t want out of my stipend. It took me two days to unravel that.

[Guinastasia]

Most likely not, unless the strike was about something I really disagreed with.

[kayaker]

As a result of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, to this day I do not buy shirtwaists.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by hajario

As I mentioned, the only opportunity I have had to cross a picket line was at supermarkets in Southern California. In my town we have Vons and Albertsons which are Union and Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods which are not.

But let’s go back to my youth in Los Angeles. The markets had a strike back then and the final settlement was that the current workers got a nice increase in wages in exchange for all future workers getting something substantially less. In every future strike since then, so far as I am aware, they did the same thing. The last time was ten years ago or so. So, if they aren’t going to support their future co-workers, why the fuck should I support them? I would like a “never crossed” to answer this.

During the last big strike, a lot of people didn’t want to cross and so Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s got a lot more business. And they temporarily hired a lot of strikers. When the strike ended, nearly all of them preferred working for the non Union shops and didn’t want go back.

We had a similar strike at local grocery stores in the mid-90s; I honored their lines and took my business to co-ops instead. Although their prices were (and still are) higher by comparison, I grew to appreciate their service and selection, and still shop there to this day. And once the other stores settled their strike, I went back there, too.

What you said about the resolved issues are not unknown to me; the union sought to improve, or perhaps retain, the current economic structure which they and the company bargained for, and contractually agreed to, for the employees' benefit. It may have been the company trying to save costs on health insurance, pension, or other economic factors that pitted them against the union (and employees) wishes. Negotiations are often difficult, and strikes are last resort: no one I know of ever wanted to go on strike unless it was absolutely necessary. You won't be paid, unless the union has a strike fund (between $20 to $100/week), you won't earn pension or health care points, and basically living off savings or depending on others to help. So the union will work its collective ass off to settle, and hard compromises will be made. Agreeing to split pay structures ("tiers") is a hard pill to swallow, almost but not nearly as allowing for an "open" shop (if it's been "closed"* til now). Sometimes the tier will be removed in future negotiations, but usually the employees hired after will achieve the same benefits as the senior workers in the long run. It's profitable for the company, which translates to being more secure for the employees.


*A "closed" shop means all employees must join the union to work there. An "open" shop allows for employees to choose whether to join or not. Regardless, they will still be represented by the union but may or may not receive similar benefits in pension and health care.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by krisolov

I think I'd honor any picket line I saw, unless I had an educated reason to disagree with the strikers.

I think unions today are much weaker than is perhaps good for us, and would support workers rights more strongly than I might have in the past.

I worked security one summer at a gravel mine where a strike was going on. We spent nights at entrance points and watching over key machinery.

We had a guard vehicle get a window shot out, and of course when we went in to work, we crossed the picket line and got yelled at.

Nothing nefarious other than me taking a truck for a joy ride while bored out of my mind at 3AM.

Back in the 80s there was a regional strike at the Lonestar refineries. It went for years. The union finally capitulated and allowed for an open shop, and told their members to go back to work. But some hardcore workers refused, and "wildcatted", meaning they kept their lines. The union didn't recognize their legitimacy and told the other workers they could cross, if they wished. A lot of them did, passing by their coworkers daily, enduring hard stares but no violence (that I'm aware of). Those hardcore types stayed out there, through fall and winter, huddled around smoldering burn barrels, clutching their signs. I can't remember when but they eventually gave up. Unions don't appreciate those who wildcat and will not support them. In this case, I can understand their position, but it gave me a sick feeling seeing those poor souls out there.

Fast forward to 1995: UPS had gone on strike in the summer. My company belonged to the same union, and told us to honor the lines. (We also saw a huge increase in our business due to the strike.) One of my closest friends, whose dad was a trustee for the union, asked me to join him in taking sandwiches and bottled water in coolers to the local UPS hub, in a show of support. When we got there we saw picket signs propped up in cold burn barrels, and a few strikers relaxing in lawn chairs and lounges. There were about 10 coolers, all stocked with ice and water and soda, and enough food to feed a church social. They even had a TV. My buddy and I dropped off our stuff and left, both feeling underwhelmed by it all.

I've had experience in organizing, taking part and becoming an organizer at my workplace, and it opened my eyes. The company that I'd worked for and respected for five years suddenly turned vicious and vindictive. The easy relationships I had with my superiors soured overnight, and I could see that they felt as bad as I did about it, but they had their orders from their superiors. It took two years before we were able to get a vote on whether to join the union, and it past with a high percentage. The next day the company laid off about 25% of their workforce, but offered most of them jobs to return, although at reduced wages and shitty hours. I was one of them, and I refused to return under the circumstances presented. Because of my efforts the union offered me a position with them as an organizer, and I worked there about a month before landing another job, with a company that had a good relationship with the union. I stayed there 15 years before being laid off (again). I'm at another company with a solid union, and hope to last until I can retire.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

I have crossed picket lines in the past, and would do so in the future. I am not pro-union.

Why am I not surprised by this? You probably step over homeless folk and kick their dogs.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by Glazer

Don't have much experience with picket lines. I crossed the line at Publix. But they were still working. I was a vendor delivering developed pictures and picking up film.

I did similar work for a non-union company, and was ordered to cross the lines as part of my job. I crossed, and I hated myself for it.

And I've crossed IBEW lines a lot in Atlanta. Any job a union shop bid for but didn't get the IBEW would hire temps to picket the jobsite.

I've heard of unions doing this. I don't agree to it, as a tactic.

As an organizer, I had objections to other tactics, like public shaming of corporate owners which had vested interests in smaller companies we were attempting to organize. The other organizers looked at those stunts as fun ways to get the message across, but I didn't care for them.

[Glazer]

Originally Posted by Zeener Diode

Why am I not surprised by this? You probably step over homeless folk and kick their dogs.

He was a cop. He kicked homeless people. Impounded their dogs. And tore down their hooches.

[Flying Squid with Goggles]

Originally Posted by stormie

A squiddly aside: no, didn't mean that but didn't was to derail thread with union discussion, which could be long and complex but would probably just be shouty.

OK, thanks. I appreciate the clarification. No need for anything to get shouty - reading the history of strikes in the US has made me particularly sensitive about union members and the stereotypes of union members (which is odd, because I've never been in a union)

[Sparkers]

Unionization was a temporary fix that didn't quite fix anything. Corporate greed remained, recovered, and mostly shrugged off the annoyance. Some unions remain where they are still useful as tools of management and PR. I don't know what will follow our era of vast corporations, but I expect businesses will be smaller and negotiating more directly with employees, and more people will be self-employed.

[Ludovic]

Unions had a chance to work during the industrial era. But the industrial era is ending, and with it the theory of labor behind both capitalist and socialist theory. Neither capital nor labor are prime in bringing value: rather, these days, it is the engineers, scientists, and artists. I think the future lies in governmental support to displaced former workers, not private or public action so people can continue working at a decent wage when they are no longer needed.

I am neither anti- nor pro- union, and whether I'd cross a picket line depends on a lot of factors: never having had to make the choice I don't know what I'd choose. If I personally knew and liked the strikers and their cause I'd probably support them.

If I did decide to cross a picket line, and I were harassed and/or blocked by the strikers, I'd take my business elsewhere - both temporarily and after the strike, because if I returned then the strikers would be rewarded for harassing me.

[Mr. Plumbean]

I generally read up on the reasons for strikes and what led to them and decide if it's a really a necessary strike or just a bunch of people talking themselves up into outrage. For the AFSCME workers and the bus drivers I think it had more to do with feeling disrespected. I supported the nurse strike 100%, it wasn't about money or even respect it was about working conditions that affected them and the patients they were aiding.

[Clothahump]

Originally Posted by Zeener Diode

Why am I not surprised by this? You probably step over homeless folk and kick their dogs.

Fuck off, Zeener.

[Zeener Diode]

Originally Posted by Mr. Plumbean

I generally read up on the reasons for strikes and what led to them and decide if it's a really a necessary strike or just a bunch of people talking themselves up into outrage. For the AFSCME workers and the bus drivers I think it had more to do with feeling disrespected. I supported the nurse strike 100%, it wasn't about money or even respect it was about working conditions that affected them and the patients they were aiding.

Coming from both sides of the issue, I can tell you that both sides can have legitimate reasons for creating strikes and reasons that appear petulant or vindictive. Bottom line often comes down to money: employees are seeking more, in order to raise their standard of living, while companies seek more to increase profits, thus raising their standard.

While unions themselves are increasingly seen as irrelevant, the concept of organizing groups of people to demand change is still going strong. I look at the #MeToo movement and Black Lives Matter as modern-day unions: bodies of people pushing back against the repressive status quo.

[Pure]

My union has helped me in many ways, both direct and indirect. Except for extraordinary circumstances, I’d never cross a picket line.

[Nonny J. Nonnington III]

Originally Posted by krisolov

I think I'd honor any picket line I saw, unless I had an educated reason to disagree with the strikers.

I think unions today are much weaker than is perhaps good for us, and would support workers rights more strongly than I might have in the past.

This, I think. I know that some unions have taken things too far, but the vast amount of time it seems that they are fighting for a living wage and health care benefits at a time when these are increasingly rare. And they seem to be challenged by corporate management that pulls in wages orders of magnitude more than the worker bees.

Personally, I think that there should be more "white collar" unions - we always seem to associate them with industry and service workers. I am biased in this way, I know. I worked for over thirty years for an engineering firm when I got laid off at the age of 57. I was told the company was "streamlining" their operations because they couldn't tell me that they were giving my work to someone younger who was paid less. It's funny in a bittersweet way - I kept in touch with some of my fellow employees and they had nothing but complaints about the people who picked up my workload. It doesn't matter that I never had received complaints, and in fact had a few commendations in my personnel folder, because the company saved money and the people who made the decision to let me go didn't have to deal with the aftermath the way my project managers did. A union would have at least stood up for me.

[Mr. Plumbean]

The thing is, a lot of the unions are for public workers -- teachers, bus drivers, etc. There are no evil corporate bosses raking in the cash. And the people most affected by the strike are not the ones making the decisions.

[Jaglavak]

Originally Posted by Pure

My union has helped me in many ways, both direct and indirect. Except for extraordinary circumstances, I’d never cross a picket line.

Funny; I've been crapped on by every union I've come in contact with. They like to wrap themselves in the flag, but in reality the ones I've dealt with are nothing more than private clubs with unlimited greed and lowlife tactics.

The one time I got outvoted and had to join a union, they caused so much shit that the plant went under and everyone ended up out of a job. And those sons of bitches at the union office closed up and left town that same day. So much for brotherhood.

I understand about unions being necessary, but as far as I'm concerned they are just as much evil users as any management I've seen.

[Nonny J. Nonnington III]

Sure, my wife was a teacher and protected by a union. Teachers were granted tenure after three years - it wouldn't save a job if there were staff reductions, but otherwise they were there to protect jobs. Sometimes for teachers that weren't as effective as they should have been, but in general it was a good thing.

An example: My wife student taught with a teacher that had progressive and highly effective methods. After graduation, she was hired by a city public school that had an old fashioned and unimaginative principal. My wife was interested in implementing some better teaching methods and was thwarted by the principal who didn't want anything to change. So my wife waited until she was tenured and then requested a meeting with the superintendent and principal. The supt. got really interested in what my wife wanted to do, and authorized my wife to change things up. My wife made an enemy for life with the principal. If there were no unions or tenure, my wife would be out on the street. So yeah, nobody getting rich but unions are still pretty good about keeping employees from getting fired so someone's nephew could get hired.

And I'll back off on my no crossing principle: If a bunch of CEOs and Trump supporters chose to picket the restaurant that refused to serve Sara Huckabee Sanders, I would cross that line in a New York minute.

[Mr. Plumbean]

Is a picket line specifically workers on strike or any bunch of yahoos with access to wood and paint? If it's the latter than hell yeah I'd cross many picket lines it's not like I owe it to every goddamned person with wood and paint to not go to work or do business. In fact my own place of work was "picketed" by one crazy person who said she was sexually harassed (not by us, but on the site, and she wasn't, a guy touched her shoulder.)