Vegas Mafia Day Two

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Meeko

NETA :

~




Yeah. We have a Super town power in this game. It probably moves my desire to want a mass claim [[What the hell is Meeko smoking, he wants to mass claim?!]] back to at least neutral, if doing so were to mean that we lose an ""advantage"". We should not be outing a Town power role that has amazing (and at this point, sorely needed) power.

Bolding / underlined mine
what are you referring to there?

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by guiri

~
OK, so nothing is 100%, but between Gnarly’s role and our wincon which mentions multiple anti-town forces, I’m not considering worlds where there is just one enemy.

I have to concur on this bit

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Meeko

Because?

I am sus of him as well but your reasons may not be mine

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Silverjan

~
Meeko, I thought you had claimed Vanilla too?

That is what I read

[Colby11]

So we have roughly 40-ish hours til EOD… and it’s been very very quiet. I know that I haven’t helped with the fact that the weekend is not the best time to be conductive to the conversation, but I’ll start.

Claiming- ToDay I don’t think it’s in our best interest, only because we don’t know for sure if we do have a second killer (whether it is a town Vig or a Serial Killer) cause Vanta could have been killed by either visiting a scum player, or by hiding behind PCM. Scum caught an extremely lucky break, as that role could be valuable down the road, but it also comes with risks.

Right now I need to reevaluate, as my main scum suspect is dead, and I had no other leads besides maybe BC, but that’s mainly based on my playstyle… going to go back and reread EOD1.

[Colby11]

I do have a question- Texcat, please explain why you thought Gnarly was a better choice than Vanta? Obviously Guiri was protecting themselves last minute, but what is your thought process? Apologies if you have answered this question in the N1 thread or somewhere else…

Why is it that I’m getting ATPG vibes from Guiri in that he is trying to control the narrative?

[Kaiveran]

♫ Let's do the multi-quote wall agaaaaain ♫

[Mahaloth]

Well, I'm curious about the other D1 candidate, then.

[Meeko]

Originally Posted by Silverjan

Meeko, I thought you had claimed Vanilla too?

I did.

It [Mahaloth] still pings. Not sure that they are mutually exclusive.

Ping, not vote, right?

[Meeko]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Bolding / underlined mine
what are you referring to there?

TL DR :: I'm openly theorizing that we have a Power Town role that is, for want of words, over-powered. This is informed by the fact that multiple town flips we have in this game had roles that played on odds and probability. I'm thinking that there is one (at least one) power role that can balance out the town roles that suffer from bad odds. --- The paranoid cop, the hider. I look at both as ""playing the odds"" and losing.

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Because?

I am sus of him as well but your reasons may not be mine

Not sure if " Meta " or " Hunch " .... or even " Gut " .

Just,


I guess I am saying I don't want to regret not having done so at the end of the game. Yes, the vote is advised by the snuggling that has occured, and by my role this game, and my roles in most games in recent memory.

I suck at this.

Just, I'm thinking we are looking at a "1 in a million" style game here. Just like how, every 10 years now, we get a "once in a lifetime" event. In that sense, we have all lived like 10 lifetimes, given all the things that have happened, that shouldn't happen.

I think that this game might be similar.

There is no way on earth that the "new" guy would be scum.


Until, you know, we have the one game that is exactly that.

If I don't get to say it later, Kaiveran I trust that you know it's not personal.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Meeko

TL DR :: I'm openly theorizing that we have a Power Town role that is, for want of words, over-powered. This is informed by the fact that multiple town flips we have in this game had roles that played on odds and probability. I'm thinking that there is one (at least one) power role that can balance out the town roles that suffer from bad odds. --- The paranoid cop, the hider. I look at both as ""playing the odds"" and losing.

the semi paranoid cop ( as I read it) wasn't that bad. The hider as I read it did have an upside so losing ( as always was an option) but not as bad as 'house rules' IMO

Not sure if " Meta " or " Hunch " .... or even " Gut " .

Just,

Mine is the out of the gate D1 'good show and some good questions but I feel the follow up was non existent

I guess I am saying I don't want to regret not having done so at the end of the game. Yes, the vote is advised by the snuggling that has occured, and by my role this game, and my roles in most games in recent memory.

I suck at this.

~

There is no way on earth that the "new" guy would be scum.


Until, you know, we have the one game that is exactly that.

If I don't get to say it later, Kaiveran I trust that you know it's not personal.

I didn't feel the snuggles you do- you did ask IIRC about your shared interests first??
But yes it may not be the one time (I do think it has occurred before) and I have no desire to give Kai a pass for being new..

It is however early in the game and I will continue to see how they interact with the game state

[LightFoot]

Is it ust me or does AA seem a bit low profile?

SilverJan seems a tad muted as well?

Could ust be me
I need to pay more attention to who is playing this one - my planet is distracted terribly

[Kaiveran]

I was going to start from my last pre-wall post, but upon peeking up earlier it appears that there are a few things that might require closer attention.

Originally Posted by Meeko

What if all of our power roles have drawbacks?

The House scum always wins.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. But given the theming, it doesn't seem implausible that many roles would have a little something left to chance, a little banana coco if you will, that adds a little variance to things and keeps us on our toes.

The host still wouldn't be lying – there'd still be no actual gambling in the game, because there's none of the active guessing, the punctus contra punctus that is the soul of gambling. But Lady Luck would still leave a subtle mark.

Originally Posted by Meeko

This kinda puts me in an awkward spot. Those that know my pet peeves either have already guessed what I am up against here. If not, I will spell it out, by asking someone who can't possibly know, directly.

Kaiveran What is your personal opinion, in general, and not informed by this game, of the concept of a "Mass Claim" ? ((I've been wanting to you ask you this, since well, I saw that we had a "new" to us player, that is not tarnished by how we do things around here. I wanted to ask you this, but figured I had to wait, because I abhor the entire thing.

However, now, I do believe we need to at least ask ourselves, and look at, if we are at needs must.

Kai specifically, and then the rest of the game at large [Because, I already know what the rest of the players are going to say here, at least by consensus.] ...... What do we think of mass claiming in this game. --- Further informed by the fact that we have in evidence multiple roles that are informed by probabilities?

@Meeko
I believe I went into this in one of my posts before my previous wall, but it bears repeating:

Normally I would be opposed to a massclaim this early. However, given that the current gamestate might be 3:1:7, and the worst-case scenario leaves us at a nasty loss-of-majority situation at 3:1:4, I think it's a good move, especially given the wolves are the biggest fish any H3P has to fry here (i.e they probably won't be shooting at our PRs right along with the wolves.)

However, for a massclaim to really achieve the benefits for town that it's supposed to achieve, the majority of players really have to be on the same page about it, so that we have the proper discipline to organize/optimize the claim process, and I don't think that's the reality of the situation right now.

Originally Posted by Meeko

Finally

I must entertain the fact that if we have losing power roles... we must have the Advantage Players / Card Counters / Card Sharps/Sharks in the audience.

Well, as a corollary to the above, if the consensus does continue to be anti-massclaim (that is, we do want to keep the identity of our remaining Blues under wraps) I think we want to limit the amount of claims in general.

Which is a point of doubt I have with you, btw. Even if you're lying about your vanilla claim, having one out there allows scum to make a read on you to a point.

Originally Posted by Meeko

NETA :

How does a Town Hider on Night 1 differ from a NI Town Vig shot?

But a Vig could leave a crumb too.

Yeah. We have a Super town power in this game. It probably moves my desire to want a mass claim [[What the hell is Meeko smoking, he wants to mass claim?!]] back to at least neutral, if doing so were to mean that we lose an ""advantage"". We should not be outing a Town power role that has amazing (and at this point, sorely needed) power.

Well, the first is a bit nonsensical. Hider is functionally very different from Vigilante, it's like a Cop who can sorta self-protect and can get unlimited innos, but only one guilt. I think I see a glimmer of the logic here, but "getting a wolf dead" isn't a vigi-exclusive action, you can indicate someone is lock wolf through means of other powers. Or you can just be an awesome enough vanillager to slay the wolves without any of that (but this dimension of the game probably isn't your concern in this post.)

On the other hand, this conclusions probably indicates that you needed to go through this whole messy process to feel out and solidify your position on the whoel situation.

I can empathize because I was once much messier and noisier than I am now (if a bit less verbose).

Originally Posted by Meeko

On a deeper level here, how did you read mine, and arrive at the fact that I was actively pushing for a claim? I thought I bent over backwards to stress that I was, at best, ambivalent, about the entire thing.

This could be a good point against guiri, BUTT if you click on the little blue arrow and read the whole exchange with Meeko, the progression here looks genuine enough. Sigh...

It's always tempting, but I try not to "lock in" too much anymore. Not in the absence of mechanical info. There needs to be some sort of openness to look at the other side of things, otherwise you can blow all your goodwill and credibility on one wrong bet, and that's just -EV for town in general – never might at what might be (essentially) the Day before ELo.

Let the devil have advocates, as long you effectively weigh their testimony against the prosecution.

Originally Posted by Meeko

OOG

This phrasing.

This, you may never know how much this strikes at / touches some deep hidden thing in me. It gets at me in a primal way.

Please tell me that this phrasing is not your own, and by virtue of that, there is some book or other work that you can link me to.

Because, damn, if you are speaking to Abstraction. Damn if I cannot do that. As my various Comp Sci professors would inform.

Like, I think there is something fundamentally off with me, as far as being able to see trees for the forest. [[Or the other way around here, Again, I suck at all of it, so I could be holding the baseball bat upside down here, you know?]]

Well (in this game at least) you might just have to get used to it.

I dunno about guiri, but I think it should be pretty clear by now that I'm a big theorist, and I live in the figurative most of the time.

Talk about "comparing/exploring/different worlds" has become pretty common in the greater IM/UR sphere, besides, and upon encountering it I was one of many people who found it a good way to organize my thoughts on actual things going on the thread.

I know we all have our personal beliefs and habits and knee-jerk reactions, but try not to get caught up on appearances too much.

As to your subsequent musings, I always aim to relate my theorizing back to the facts on the ground. As papa Marx said, we cannot go from the heavens down to earth. My own "worldbuilding" aims to make sense of the events of the game and build reasonable conclusions and/or possibilities out of them.

If you feel I have failed to achieve that aim at any point during this game, feel free to call me out.

Preview Comment :: yuck, it's already an intimidating monster and I've barely reached the Page 1/2 divide. Splitting for legibility.

[Kaiveran]

OOG :: Impulse Blocker is my new homie.

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by Meeko

Your eagerness here pings. Quite a bit.

Hmm...even originating from a tradition where players keeping individual "cold sheets" are common, I do kinda see where Meeko's coming from here.

Originally Posted by guiri

Oh, you were not around near EoD? You meant after or past EoD here?

<snippery>

Is promising to come back with more later and then not delivering not a scumtell where you usually do play?

I didn't remember when deadline was exactly. I can't really prove it if you don't believe me.

And no, I'd say it's pretty universally a source of scumpoints in my broad experience. Which is why I'm inclined to let things breathe until a while after I've put more content out there, and not rush headlong into an oxygen-sucking thunderdome with you, for instance. Now more than ever, town needs an open and cool-headed discussion.

Originally Posted by guiri

No response to my questions earlier? Very selective of you.

Well, sir guiri, I think you'll find your answers now!

----

GB's quote rules have destroyed the legibility of this section, so I highly recommend you click on the blue arrow and read the original post for context. My comments are bold and blue interlinears:

Originally Posted by guiri

You cannot deny that Gnarly's accusation of PIS exposed his own PIS, it's now proven, but it was town-PIS and not 3-party or scum PIS, my bad.

In my eyes it's still a pretty thin margin, but the wording differences between the VT pm and charlie's do seem to confer differing degrees of certainty. So I'll give you this one.

Explain the bit in bold please.

What's there to explain? I thought I remembered you voting charlie later but I wanted to verify before making any conclusion based on it.

That was tortured logic to squirm out of exposing his PIS, in fact it's what made me more confident later.

I think a previous post why I don't believe this is a particularly "tortured" post from charlie. Wild guesses at things absent any concrete info isn't particularly wolfy; townies do it all the time. I do know a lot of places automatically think setup spec, particularly, is a big wolf tell, but I defiantly do not subscribe to that. My disclaimer of bias is that setup spec was quite common in my home communities and often a tool fror townies to get their heads in the game. Not that I can never find it scummy or understand a scumread based on it, but I need a concrete reason other than just "following the tell".

You missed my #225, questioning Archangel's last minute vote on Gnarly.

Hmm.

This does indicate that the outcome between gnarly/Tex mattered to you. It's not an uncommon signal for a skilled wolf to be able to throw, but it's something I have to factor in.

Also a lack of activity around EoDs tends to muddy the waters in general.

(As does an overwhelming flood of activity, I feel, which has basically become the norm on sites that are not GB. Sure, it might be "exciting" to a certain cohort of people, but to me it's just exhausting. Sometimes the opposite of a bad thing is also a bad thing.)

Read it again, he gave two options: multiball or forces=multiple scum members. Remember I was voting TexCat all this time? I felt Gnarly was LHF and TexCat was a better chance of scum, but between her returning to the thread with a read, and Gnarly being online but not posting, I switched.

This is a bit clearer with #225 in the picture, and reads well enough as the point at which town!guiri is definitively swayed onto charlie.

With that said, It doesn't look like charlie ever discounted "wolves + 3P" as a possibility outright. He just sussed you based on jumping to that conclusion vs. the other ones he lists here.

TexCat's post was not justification, where did you read that?

First, that link is fucked up, it points back to #232 where it should actually point to #239.

To sum it up, I read "feeling slightly better about this now" to mean that TexCat jumping on charlie played a decisive factor in you even though there was practically zero substance TexCat put behind it.

But now that I look over it again, it's not the most solid reasoning in the world.

He, FWIW.

Oh yes, if it's not too much bother, could everyone cite their pronouns at some point so I can (eventually) stop misgendering you?

For someone who has a fancy name and pronouns emself, I am embarrassingly terrible at keeping this shit straight. I would legit forget y'alls names if they weren't right in front of my face all the time.

(here's mine demonstrated: http://pronoun.is/ey/em/eir/eirs/emself

it's basically the they/.../themself series with the "th" cut off. You can add it back, if headless pronouns stick in your craw too much.)

When you come back, bring all the walls you were authoring D1 please.

Why the hell would I do that? It's not D1 anymore, thus any conclusions I could reach without factoring in the information gained by a cycle already past would be outdated and irrelevant.

It's time to live in the now.

----

Originally Posted by guiri

If you believe both Texcat and Gnarly are town, and I’m scum, what’s my motivation for the switch?

There isn't, but I don't necessarily believe TexCat is town. In fact I was warming up to the idea that I should consider scum!TexCat world more and your near EoD actions were evidence of it.

Originally Posted by Meeko

It's always interesting when your two leading scum suspects end up voting for each other.

<et cetera>

Kai, you don't need to give me warnings on possible tangents. I divert by default.

I am quite cognizant of that last by now, @Meeko.

With that said, would you care to explain the process behind moving me from the null-town zone to one of your top scumz? I feel like there's a big hole there.

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by Silverjan

Meeko, I thought you had claimed Vanilla too?

Originally Posted by LightFoot

That is what I read

I mean, yes, and yes, but I don't think that invalidates the point being made here. I don't wanna speak for Meeko but I think there's a distinct difference between just having claimed vanilla and openly wanting to take claim-based actions.

Originally Posted by Silverjan

I hope to hell you aren't scum, you are one of the players that make me think logically, even when I call you out for things (like excluding yourself from your overall scum reads)

You never know. Don't write him off as being any alignment just because you like his style. That's not game-related information.

Also, I don't think it's any player's responsibility or prerogative to give a read on themself. That rests squarely in the domain of the other players in the game. The closest thing I could think of is in an ELo situation, where people are often asked to walk through and explain their game play-by-play to see if it matches a town perspective, but that involves a lot of debate and specific citations and challenging any truth claims put forward – to me that's quite a bit different and more useful than "I investigated myself and cleared me of all wrongdoing!"

This might be a bit of culture clash though, and I'd like to hear the Giraffe Boards Take on this.

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Because?

I am sus of him as well but your reasons may not be mine

Good job.

Question everything, even the things you think you're right about.

Originally Posted by Colby11

So we have roughly 40-ish hours til EOD… and it’s been very very quiet. I know that I haven’t helped with the fact that the weekend is not the best time to be conductive to the conversation, but I’ll start.

Claiming- ToDay I don’t think it’s in our best interest, only because we don’t know for sure if we do have a second killer (whether it is a town Vig or a Serial Killer) cause Vanta could have been killed by either visiting a scum player, or by hiding behind PCM. Scum caught an extremely lucky break, as that role could be valuable down the road, but it also comes with risks.

Right now I need to reevaluate, as my main scum suspect is dead, and I had no other leads besides maybe BC, but that’s mainly based on my playstyle… going to go back and reread EOD1.

I'd like to see an update on this process. I don't expect anything resembling my massive walls ofc, but I feel like the game has been missing your perspective.

Aside: as of this post I think it's pretty clear that massclaim just isn't happening toDay. Sorry to anyone who hoped it would.

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

Well, I'm curious about the other D1 candidate, then.

You couldn't even spare a one-liner as to why, @Mahaloth?

Originally Posted by Meeko

TL DR :: I'm openly theorizing that we have a Power Town role that is, for want of words, over-powered. This is informed by the fact that multiple town flips we have in this game had roles that played on odds and probability. I'm thinking that there is one (at least one) power role that can balance out the town roles that suffer from bad odds. --- The paranoid cop, the hider. I look at both as ""playing the odds"" and losing.

Not sure if " Meta " or " Hunch " .... or even " Gut " .

Just,


I guess I am saying I don't want to regret not having done so at the end of the game. Yes, the vote is advised by the snuggling that has occured, and by my role this game, and my roles in most games in recent memory.

I suck at this.

Just, I'm thinking we are looking at a "1 in a million" style game here. Just like how, every 10 years now, we get a "once in a lifetime" event. In that sense, we have all lived like 10 lifetimes, given all the things that have happened, that shouldn't happen.

I think that this game might be similar.

There is no way on earth that the "new" guy would be scum.


Until, you know, we have the one game that is exactly that.

If I don't get to say it later, Kaiveran I trust that you know it's not personal.

"Top Ten Anime Betrayals" material right here

But seriously, Meeko. Give us something here.

I get that you don't always have to be the most open and honest player as town, but at a juncture like this I feel there has to be a reason for your caginess, and there just isn't one that I can see from here.

Furthermore, as I might have indicated with my response to Mahaloth above, I feel like there's an imperative need to raise the bar for what constitutes a compelling case in this game, and right now I think that mandates any read and push to have actual visible support. To not just say "X player is Y alignment", but share how they reached that conclusion.

You say this is a "once in a lifetime game" – is there anything that you could point to that gave you this feeling?

You cite your roles in previous games – could you perhaps explain and/or give links for context?

Either of those would be pretty helpful. Both would be very helpful.

[guiri]

I mentioned it, I liked your entrance and welcomed fresh bloodeyes, but then I noticed the combination of the unfulfilled promises to come back with more, the asking players to share a read but zero interest in or follow-up to the (lack of) responses, the near EoD comment, and lack of vote, plenty to move you out of the null column.

[guiri]

Kaiveran, is posting long wordy posts something you tend to do more as Town or Scum?

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by Vote Counting Robot

Kaiveran (2): guiri (4), Meeko (23)
Texcat (1): Mahaloth (58)
Guiri (1): Kaiveran (36)

----

Whew.

As I'm caught up now, I think I'll spend Tuesday responding in a less monumental manner to things as they come, and try to rally discussion on as many people as I can.

I don't plan to vote anyone without seeing points both for and against them, if I have a choice. Investigation, Prosecution, Defense. We need all three if we wanna dig ourselves outta this hole.

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by guiri

I mentioned it, I liked your entrance and welcomed fresh bloodeyes, but then I noticed the combination of the unfulfilled promises to come back with more, the asking players to share a read but zero interest in or follow-up to the (lack of) responses, the near EoD comment, and lack of vote, plenty to move you out of the null column.

That was meant for Meeko.

Originally Posted by guiri

Kaiveran, is posting long wordy posts something you tend to do more as Town or Scum?

When deadlines and/or free time permit, I will gladly post huge walls as either alignment.

I'd say as scum I'm more forthcoming with them, because my TMI allows me to feel out where things are going and how best to position myself much more easily. Whereas when I'm town starting from zero information, I really have to dig deep to get even a moderately satisfactory grasp on the game.

The last time I had posting latitude even remotely similar to this game is here, but that's a vastly different milieu.

*squeak-yawns loudly*

[TexCat]

Originally Posted by Colby11

I do have a question- Texcat, please explain why you thought Gnarly was a better choice than Vanta? Obviously Guiri was protecting themselves last minute, but what is your thought process? Apologies if you have answered this question in the N1 thread or somewhere else…

Why is it that I’m getting ATPG vibes from Guiri in that he is trying to control the narrative?

I had a townish read on Vanta and Guiri, as I said at the time. It was D1 with not much to go on, so mostly a gut decision.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Is it ust me or does AA seem a bit low profile?

SilverJan seems a tad muted as well?

Could ust be me
I need to pay more attention to who is playing this one - my planet is distracted terribly

My internet was down entirely yesterday. I just got back now, let me read.

[guiri]

Bashorian

D1 #96 asks me what is scummy about PCM's punctuation - I replied in #106 #97 asks Vanta to clarify his statement about the current state of mafia and how that would lead him to posting too much - Vanta replied in #104 #98 asks Colby why he found Vanta's blending in to be scummy vs NAI since he's doing the same as everyone else #99 asks Mordenkainen about Las Vegas' "GP Course" - Mordenkainen replied in #133 #168 asks me who are the two scum I muse are caught squirming

Just 5 posts, interacts with 4 different players, one fluff question, one poke, three clarifications about suspicions/reasoning. Not much to see here, not much to make a read on, except for the gap of 69 posts over just more than 24 hours between #99 and #168 where he pops in to ask me about my #166. I guess what's piqued my interest about this gap is what else he read between those two posts but did not consider them worthy of a question or comment. Apart from the responses to his questions, TexCat, Archangel and Vanta had garnered two votes, at least two people gave reads on Bashorian - Archangel and Mordenkainen, whose concern about looking inconsistent I questioned.

Originally Posted by Archangel

14. Bashorian Clement: leaning town

Which she followed up on much later with:

Originally Posted by Archangel

BC's activity varies as both alignments.

The tone of his posts is his town tone though.

What was this lean based on?

Originally Posted by Mordenkainen

Inconsistent may have been a poor choice of words.

The central thrust is that if I normally say "I won't vote Player X just because they haven't posted much" about a player, then when I do vote for a player because of low postcount, the question "what's different this time?" arises. If there is no real (or obvious) difference and I can't explain why I acted differently, I would rightly be suspect. Especially since I have already declined to vote others for low postcount in this game.

For some reason, BC's posts are nudging at me. The only reason I can articulate is low postcount, and my position on that is in the early game low postcount is a null tell. So I will not vote him this time.

How are you feeling about BC now?

Mordenkainen

D1 #7 Hi, fluff #133 explanation of GP course, dislikes Mahaloth's unforced VT claim, not reason enough to vote #134 quotes Kaiveran, likes it, has a townie feel #141 to Meeko, says Archangel did not go after Kaiveran, she just asked a question, and moved on when the answer satisfied her, will not be voting Archangel or Kaiveran toDay, maybe Maha or Meeko #143 on Gnarly, mentions his single post, also missed the plurar "forces", not reason enough for a vote #153 explains Lightfoot/SilverJan numbered lists confusion, notes there are 6 hours remaining #160 on Bashorian, mentions his short burst of activity (quoted above), feels uneasy but needs more reasoning than low participation, since they are equally guilty of that so it's NAI #167 to me, explains what they meant by inconsistent (quoted above), policy non-votes Gnarly #189 on Texcat, dislikes her reasoning for voting Mahaloth, his claim was NAI and Colby's vote was a joke, disagrees with vote but wonders if it's a misunderstanding or made-up arguments, ends up voting Texcat because "not only scum would do that", for being wrong #197 to me, who questioned their comment on Bashorian's short burst of activity and ironic, given his own short burst of activity, explains that it's their MO, does not know if it's also BC's MO #200 to Archangel, who clarifies that low activity is also NAI for BC, does not understand tone #250 (N1) to me, who asked if anyone else had Gnarly's interpretation of "forces", also thought of multiball, but not worth a vote, anyway it's too late

Slightly more content here, gives two town reads, does a few ISOs, fairly nice tone, although a little overly self-aware, playing both sides on gnarly, mahaloth, and bashorian. Three things stand out:
1. What made you pick Gnarly, Bashorian and TexCat to ISO?
2. Did you find TexCat scummy for being wrong? Do you think she faked the arguments against Mahaloth, or do you feel a need to stick to your policies no matter what?
3. A little snuggling and defense of Kaiveran, possibly too blatant too early

Colby11

D1 #9 Hi, fluff #15 to gnarly, points out that being a closed setup, a 3rd party might be possible #28 votes and unvotes Mahaloth for his unforced claim/being in the dark #70 comment to Lightfoot about votes needing to be in bold #72 votes Vanta for blending in by announcing their decisions D2 #48 has been busy #55 it's quiet, is anti-mass claim, scum were extremely lucky, needs a new suspect, only lean is BC, going to re-read EoD1 #56 asks TexCat why Gnarly over Vanta, wonders why he's feeling I'm trying to control the narrative

Again not much, which is why I started with the lowest posters, so fluff, absence, some setup talk, a joke vote, and a vote that seems fine in itself, another absence, and their first to question to another player. I guess Colby won't have problems with double-standards or consistency regarding BC's low participation. I can't accuse him of genieing but I hope he stays around to give us more to go on. Only niggle is that original comment about 3rd parties, if I was misguided but correct about gnarly's PIS, there might be something here too.

Mahaloth

D1 #25 Is here, claims VT, is in the dark #26 asks about gambling aspects in the game #54 to anyone in general, is not an early claimer, used his power early in the last game and claimed asap, no solid reason this time, kill him if there's nothing better #58 thinks Vanta reads town #63 to Archangel, who agrees with him about Vanta, does not usually remember any player's meta, except maybe Meeko #71 to Lightfoot, who asks why he claimed this time, no reason, just being a loose cannon #105 OOG to Vanta, who was explaining to BC about the game being quiet, was going to suggest a summer hiatus #118 votes TexCat for just agreeing with Colby's joke vote N1 #8 is surprised Gnarly did not claim D2 #29 asks if there are other claims, wants to make a spreadsheet #58 is curious about the D1 counterwagon, votes TexCat again

The only thing I dislike about the claim and dark is the zero reasoning and almost apathy about it, and about being yeeted, which I feel is a little townie coming from Mahaloth, the read on Vanta is a plus, the vote on TexCat seems at least partially OMGUS but he was in good company, but toDay's repeat needs some more reasoning, looking forward to that when you have a chance.

[Archangel]

@guiri first off this is the move TexCat made in the previous game I was referring to:

Originally Posted by TexCat

I'm time zone impaired.

I see my vote on SJ was wrong.

[Archangel]

So (regarding TexCat and Mahaloth) this is why I see a difference. She was scum in that game and just put a naked vote on Mahaloth, who was town.

In this game she also put a vote on Mahaloth but it had a reason.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by guiri

Farewell PCM and Vanta.

Lots of options for those events: Serial killer, vig, scum-kill, hider behind scum or hider behind target, redirector, maybe more.
I would have considered Vanta a more likely scum target than PCM but I imagine he also used his power, so then he wouldn’t have been the scum target, and would not have been hiding behind a scum player, but hid behind someone scum wanted to kill? In either case, he might have left a hint but I don’t see anything in his Night 1 posts that look like a hint, unless someone can decipher the MS Office Laptop story.
I found PCM TWTBAW, I think AA also softened her read on him, not sure if anyone else was town-reading him or even scum-reading him, so not an obvious scum target, or vig target for that matter.
For a vig I’d have expected either myself or Texcat to be top targets.

I did soften my read on him, yes. When he posted I just got overwhelmed town.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by TexCat

It looks to me like PCM was the scum kill, and Vanta made the mistake of hiding behind scum. Going back to look if he left any crumbs.

Did you find anything? (I will also give it a shot.)

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by TexCat

That took a while cause I got distracted by oog things. Plus I went back and re-read the last part of D1 that I had skimmed through and hadn't bothered with since I thought I was leaving the game.

I guess it's possible that Vanta hid behind PCM and was killed with him. As the town hider, you'd want to hide behind town, but not someone townie enough to be a likely scum target. A tough decision.

I did note this post from N1, probably because I still think Mahaloth is scum and my confirmation bias was showing.

It is not possible that Vanta hid behind PCM and was killed with him, because Vanta's role says he would die if he hid behind scum.

So actually we need to go look and see who Vanta was town-reading.

[Archangel]

@Kaiveran re your post #36 here, I am writing this from memory and I have serious memory issues, but I believe that at the time I posted "not enough data" on Gnarlycharlie he had only made one post. (It was the post where he voted guiri.)

And I discussed Charlie's meta IMO (that he often lacks reliable internet, so his lack of participation was a null tell) elsewhere.

I was null-reading Charlie. I made a snap decision to follow Jan (who also knows him well and has played with him for a long time) when I thought Day was ending early, because she found the vote really suspicious. And then I got back too late to do anything about it.

(None of this is a defense of me, it seems you're reading the thread either selectively or in a disorganized manner, so I'm answering what you questioned in this post in one place for you.)

[Archangel]

Sorry @Kaiveran, I see you got there by the end of the post. I don't do well with long posts but I'm trying.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Archangel

It is not possible that Vanta hid behind PCM and was killed with him, because Vanta's role says he would die if he hid behind scum.

So actually we need to go look and see who Vanta was town-reading.

How do you figure.

re read the reveal

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

How do you figure.

re read the reveal

Copied from the reveal:

Welcome to the game, you are Town Hider.
Each Night, you may choose a player to hide behind. If they are scum, you will die. Otherwise, no powers targeting you will affect you that Night, but any power targeting the player you are hiding behind will affect both you and them.
You win when all anti-Town forces have been eliminated.

***

If they are scum, you will die.

***

I don't think I'm reading this wrong, but I think we have a difference of opinion on how he may have used the power.

I am saying that Vanta would have hidden behind someone he was townreading if he used his power, because otherwise he would be killed. For example, if we have a doctor and the doctor can self-protect, if Vanta hid behind them, Vanta would also be protected.

I guess you (and TexCat) are saying he would have used the power as a vig. Which is a legitimate use of the power that didn't occur to me because the other is more interesting.

So it's a difference of opinion on what the best way to use his power was.

I concede (now that the thought has occurred to me though ) that Vanta enjoys being a vig.

[Archangel]

Also, though, my reading of the rules makes it impossible that Vanta hid behind PCM and was killed because of that.

If I am actually reading Vanta's role wrong, please explain to me like I'm 5 because that seems pretty clearly impossible to me.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Hid behind Scum OR behind PCM.
As it had unlimted uses I probably would have used it behind my Town read.

It would have been a benefit IF Vanta had not been deaded- they would have known the person they hid behind was not Scum.

Sorry, I am just seeing this post now for some reason. (And sorry about your car!)

I see what you're saying now. This PM could be read either way (and you actually agree with me about the use of the power).

If Vanta hid behind town that was killed by scum, would he die? The otherwise is confusing me.

[Eristic Widgeon]

Yes, if Vanta hid behind town that was killed by scum, he would die. If he hid behind town that was investigated or protected or whatever, he would also be investigated, etc.

Or if he hid behind scum, he would die.

But if he hid behind town and HE was targeted by scum, he would live. Likewise any other powers targeting him directly would fail.

[Meeko]

Well. This devolved quickly.

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

"Top Ten Anime Betrayals" material right here

But seriously, Meeko. Give us something here.

I get that you don't always have to be the most open and honest player as town, but at a juncture like this I feel there has to be a reason for your caginess, and there just isn't one that I can see from here.

Furthermore, as I might have indicated with my response to Mahaloth above, I feel like there's an imperative need to raise the bar for what constitutes a compelling case in this game, and right now I think that mandates any read and push to have actual visible support. To not just say "X player is Y alignment", but share how they reached that conclusion.

You say this is a "once in a lifetime game" – is there anything that you could point to that gave you this feeling?

You cite your roles in previous games – could you perhaps explain and/or give links for context?

Either of those would be pretty helpful. Both would be very helpful.

I see.

Kaiveran

The words for me are hard here. It is too easy, all at once to say that I like you, and that I like you a lot.

True.

But, then I have to start dissecting it, and taking back pieces.

It should go without saying :

1. As much as I can know you, and like you, based on that knowledge. [We've only ""known"" each other what, three weeks? And even now, the use of word known is pained.

2. Even more so, obviously, it's strictly platonic.

And we descend further into all of it now

3. I honestly think it is awesome and amazing to be playing alongside anther Furry and Brony. Full Stop.

3.5 I feel that even now, other players are probably cursing their luck, to know that, Meeko just might be more sane than he lets on. At the end of the day, I'm not sure if and or how that implicates you.

4. That we are / have been snuggled / pocketed.

5. That the opening premise, mixed with 3 and 4 .... make this hard for me.

---

A. That, yes, if not fully formed before the vote, it was latent, and exists now, that my Vote on you, in part, is to distance / prevent further snuggle pockets.

B. If anything, being too honest is what gets me in these games. The Starship Titanic game ..... Can I relapse more of that, please? ... What do you mean it doesn't work that way?

C. And D. , Actually ::

I am Vanilla. And frankly, I feel like I have been Town [Power, or otherwise] for as long as I can remember. I know that this too, doesn't work that way. ... But, Finally, If I'm not scum, who is?



These are the best and final, last chance words I have at this.

I did not get a scum role this game. I'm thinking that you, Kaiveran, got """my""" scum role.

Again, yes, I know that, that is not how it works, but, it too adds to my esoteric, if considered vote.

Perhaps, it's the exact opposite of considered. So far removed from considered, that, that's why I'm so attached to it.

That, in short, Despite what the numbers and the odds say, at times, it feels to me that my life goes way against the odds. Way, way, way, against the odds.

And I'm sick of being burned by it.

Here and there, this and that, moves me to vote for you.

I regret that we are snuggled. I regret that we are pocketed. If I could be a better player, I'd have had the distance I need from you to not have had this been a thing / problem.

But, I realize that this baggage is mostly, if not all mine.

----

Friday was weird for me. I had to get up an hour early, and go and put my car in the shop [Got it out on Saturday it was the 100k mile tune up] And for a while there, at least, all throughout Friday, I was blaming the one hour sleep loss, which shouldn't be "it", .... and the extra caffeine I had to make up for it, and then some.

Part of me wonders if the Roe / Wade overturn plays into why I've been feeling off since then. One would think that, being AMAB that it wouldn't affect me as it has. But, I think you all know the most, that I'm just not sure where I am gender wise. There are more people in our play group, than I have told in real life, that I am questioning my gender. I'm all but certain it's going to stay pretty close to the Male end of things.

I'm probably Demi-sexual, and off-gender / peri-male.

"I am a non-zero amount of non-binary."

And I still don't know if that is valid. Valid in the sense that I think it is redundant.

Calling that Transgender confuses it for everyone. The "umbrella" terms that encompass the rest, as far as orientation and and gender should not be the most polarizing of the terms, the most extreme. I digress.




I don't not ""feel"" this game. I do not feel like I am in it.

I, again, do not see how all of you are getting as far as you have into our game, that as far as I am concerned, still just started. Our odds suck, and I feel further backwards than we were in Margaritaville. I don't get how you all ""know"" more than I do.


Even the length of our phases feel off to me. I used to think one RL week / M-F for one Game Day was an eternity. And, compared to Titanic and Margaritaville [and other recents] in relative terms, game Days and Nights are flying by for me.


I'm trying to play the game as I know how. I'd say in "my" style, "Meeko being Meeko" / "Meeko is going to Meeko" ..... but I don't want the charge of me manufacturing that [[As it has been, in this game, and if I recall, even in Margaritaville, it was]] .... that I am over-trying .... to exist into the game.

And saying this , all but guarantees it.


-----

It's weird, because, I almost feel like I need to sub out now. Yet, I can't really "point" to anything.

I wouldn't have thought that any of the above would do me in. Especially, especially when I know we have players in this game that have physical medical histories that inform that they might sub out also.


----

I would think, that if I have all that I have going on, to actually sideline me here, they would at least do me the courtesy of giving me some Damn answers. 39 should not be this unfullfilled. I should not be asking questions that a 21, or 18 year old should be asking. You know?

[Meeko]

I'm aimlessly scrolling the game after the post I just made.

Who wrote this ::


Oh yes, if it's not too much bother, could everyone cite their pronouns at some point so I can (eventually) stop misgendering you?

For someone who has a fancy name and pronouns emself, I am embarrassingly terrible at keeping this shit straight. I would legit forget y'alls names if they weren't right in front of my face all the time.

(here's mine demonstrated: http://pronoun.is/ey/em/eir/eirs/emself

it's basically the they/.../themself series with the "th" cut off. You can add it back, if headless pronouns stick in your craw too much.)


?

[Meeko]

Originally Posted by Meeko

I'm aimlessly scrolling the game after the post I just made.

Who wrote this ::


Oh yes, if it's not too much bother, could everyone cite their pronouns at some point so I can (eventually) stop misgendering you?

For someone who has a fancy name and pronouns emself, I am embarrassingly terrible at keeping this shit straight. I would legit forget y'alls names if they weren't right in front of my face all the time.

(here's mine demonstrated: http://pronoun.is/ey/em/eir/eirs/emself

it's basically the they/.../themself series with the "th" cut off. You can add it back, if headless pronouns stick in your craw too much.)


?

You know, I don't have the time to wait on a response.

Gonna go with Gut, again.

Kaiveran : I hope I haven't misgendered you. I was taking a guess, and trying to refer to you as "They" as much as I could, when I remembered to do so. I had a feeling that, I would need to use different genders. Needs to be said, that, you being Furry also, helped here.

And, doesn't help my Mendie thing. Mendie is still debating on if ..... the use of She or They would suit them best. I would like They to be a singular plural, but I know that doesn't work that way. I'll spare details, but at present, Mendie prefers They.

Which, really doesn't matter, as I still use Meeko's account. [[FWIW, Mendie started as a sock account for what ever game that was, and well, I can't sock, so

----

Above all else, I think that Kaiveran offers validation for me, right before I feel it threatened by Roe / Wade.

I'm not sure that can be overstated. As much as I don't want to say it is a thing. I've been a certain way here lately. Perhaps I should overshare on that.

[Meeko]

OOG ::

I changed my avatar back. I think the reasons are obvious.

[Archangel]

OOG: Hugs, Meeko, because it sounds like you need them, and I will try to remember your pronouns. If I use the wrong ones it just means I forgot, I'm not being intentionally disrespectful. (My pronouns are she and her.)

In game: Guiri, I just saw your question about BC and went to look at his posts. There aren't many and I don't know how to multiquote or I'd show you.

BC does a stream of consciousness thing where he posts a lot of one-liners. That's what I saw that made me think he was town. There was also a question there that sounded snippy on its original read.

In my experience BC comes across sounding snippy when he's town.

Here's the quote for that specific question:

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

What is meant by "the current state" and how would that lead you to post more than you usually would?

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

You appear to be hung up on Precambrian's punctuation. Can you explain what about the punctuation is scummy?

When I reread it though it sounds less snippy than cautious.

So I don't agree with my initial read on BC without further input from him. Downgrading him to neutral because this could go either way.

[Archangel]

Sorry, there are TWO questions here and they both sound less snippy than cautious to me. (I only saw the first when I copied/pasted.)

[Meeko]

Originally Posted by Archangel

OOG: Hugs, Meeko, because it sounds like you need them, and I will try to remember your pronouns. If I use the wrong ones it just means I forgot, I'm not being intentionally disrespectful. (My pronouns are she and her.)

In game: Guiri, I just saw your question about BC and went to look at his posts. There aren't many and I don't know how to multiquote or I'd show you.

BC does a stream of consciousness thing where he posts a lot of one-liners. That's what I saw that made me think he was town. There was also a question there that sounded snippy on its original read.

In my experience BC comes across sounding snippy when he's town.

Here's the quote for that specific question:

When I reread it though it sounds less snippy than cautious.

So I don't agree with my initial read on BC without further input from him. Downgrading him to neutral because this could go either way.

With no offense intended to Kai I am still largely questioning my gender. I have leading candidates for answers, but havent moved into them.

Does anyone have the link to our playgroup's spreadsheet? Gender is advised on that, and I feel as if Kai would like to see it. Possibly fill it out emself

I really hope I didn't piss in eir oatmeal too much.


As for me, He / Him is still good.

It's a marginal move off of Cis Male, if and when I make it.

Yes. All "eggs" say that. But damn, our Gender Politics thread has a raging Mafia problem.

;-)

[Bashorian Clement]

I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out.

I don't have a real good feel for this game. My usual methods of dissecting posts and looking for what is unusual aren't working. Kaiveran seems overly defensive for some reason. Well, it's not even that; there's something about his posting that gnaws at me. I can't help but look at him being a skilled maf, but I don't know that I can point at anything specific.

Guiri I thought was pretty defensive Day 1, over-explaining things to a point where the horse wouldn't survive. I was suspicious of him especially, but I've backed off on that. His Day 2 posting looks more as an emerging Town leader than a defensive maf.

Archangel I thought may have been pocketing me, but I almost always think that with her. But there's really no reason for her to do that as my presence has been minimal so I lean Town on her.

Meeko it seemed to me was also more verbose than usual, but I feel a good vibe there. More frustrated Town than anything else.

I don't have much on anyone else. I'm curious as to why my low profile hasn't generated more interest.

I saw answers to some of the questions I posed Day 1, and they appeared to relate to oog stuff for the most part, but there were one or two things I asked that I don't think were answered, like the punctuation question. I don't recall that being answered, and it doesn't really matter right now given my current read on guiri.

As far as more than one anti-town faction or player goes, it seems to me that Vanta's death points to there not being multiples despite gnarlycharlie's reveal. Or if there are, it's a survivor (which I guess wouldn't necessarily be anti-town) or someone else without a night kill. I'm confident that Vanta hid behind someone Night 1, and I'm confident that that player is a maf. Otherwise it seems we would've seen three kills it seems.

There was something I wanted to say about Precambrian but I dont' remember what.

I'm voting ofr Kaiveran at this time. I think Kaiveran is likely skilled at any alignment, but I don't get a Twon feel there.

[Bashorian Clement]

And I'm really interested in the mod's rundown of the Dead & Co. concert but that can wait.

[Bashorian Clement]

I can't track the dynamic between Meeko and Kaiveran, but it seems Meeko is suspicious of Kaiveran so I'm riding a bit on that too.

[Bashorian Clement]

Now that I think about it I'm not sure I want to hitch my horse to that buggy but let's see how it playhs out.

[Bashorian Clement]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

I have to concur on this bit

This is something that jumped out at me, not necessarily LightFoot's post but guiri's. How do you explain the kills last Night if there is more than one frooce of darkness?

[Bashorian Clement]

Usually my questions are meant for the person I'm replying to, but this one I'm interested in everyone' s aswer.

[Bashorian Clement]

I see that Precambrian is dead. So it doesn't matter what I thought there.

[Bashorian Clement]

Originally Posted by Meeko

NETA :

How does a Town Hider on Night 1 differ from a NI Town Vig shot?

But a Vig could leave a crumb too.




Yeah. We have a Super town power in this game. It probably moves my desire to want a mass claim [[What the hell is Meeko smoking, he wants to mass claim?!]] back to at least neutral, if doing so were to mean that we lose an ""advantage"". We should not be outing a Town power role that has amazing (and at this point, sorely needed) power.

If we have a super town power, and I don't see any evidence of that or know what that would be, why we would be less than neutral?