Vegas Mafia Day Two

[Bashorian Clement]

guri/Kaiveran are not w/w
meeko/Kaiveran are not w/w

Without some great theatre anyway

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

When deadlines and/or free time permit, I will gladly post huge walls as either alignment.

I was sure I found a post by you elsewhere where you stated you tend to be more wordy as scum and find you need to rein yourself in, but alas it’s disappeared.

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

The last time I had posting latitude even remotely similar to this game is here, but that's a vastly different milieu.

*squeak-yawns loudly*

Nice save at the end there, we’ll played, it was close. Good to see your Town meta, a little less wordy in general and only one unfulfilled promise.

In your vote post I found the “I think I remember guiri's vote ending up on charlie anyways, but I'm not sure.” and the explanation: “What's there to explain? I thought I remembered you voting charlie later but I wanted to verify before making any conclusion based on it.” hollow or staged, you telegraphed your case on me here and you may even have killed PCM to frame me.

How are you enjoying the site so far?

Originally Posted by Archangel

@guiri first off this is the move TexCat made in the previous game I was referring to:

Thanks, I was looking through D1. I’d have sucked at that game, can barely make toast…

Originally Posted by Archangel

I did soften my read on him, yes. When he posted I just got overwhelmed town.

Yes, so that’s two of us, I don’t believe he was widely town-read and so, in my opinion, an unlikely target for the scum-kill, leaving the Vanta hiding behind the scum target a more plausible scenario.

Meeko -they/them/their and Kai -ey/em/eir, apologies for mispronouning you in the past. On MafiaUniverse you can choose your pronouns and have them appear on your profile to avoid confusion, maybe we can request a similar functionality here?

@Meeko, sending furry hugs your way. I love the idea that you think Kaiveran got your scum role.

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out.

And the sun rose in the East?

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

I saw answers to some of the questions I posed Day 1, and they appeared to relate to oog stuff for the most part, but there were one or two things I asked that I don't think were answered, like the punctuation question. I don't recall that being answered, and it doesn't really matter right now given my current read on guiri.

I wrote a thesis in D1#106.

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

This is something that jumped out at me, not necessarily LightFoot's post but guiri's. How do you explain the kills last Night if there is more than one frooce of darkness?

See above, I don’t see PCM as a viable scum target or why Vanta would hide there, and found no hint of a breadcrumb from Vanta to indicate he might be dead due to his choice, so my deduction is that he hid behind one of his town reads who was the scum NK target. It’s a theory, but fits better than PCM being the scum-kill with Vanta hiding behind him. Oh, and doctors/blockers/trigger shy SKs. Nah, forget that last one.

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

meeko/Kaiveran are not w/w

Without some great theatre anyway

I briefly entertained the idea that they were masons due to their snuggling, but then Meeko claimed VT and has since distanced himself from Kaiveran.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Vote Counting Robot

Kaiveran (3): guiri (4), Meeko (23), Bashorian Clement (93)
Texcat (1): Mahaloth (58)
Guiri (1): Kaiveran (36)

If you want, you can paste this as well:

Voting History:
post #4: guiri voted Kaiveran
post #4: guiri illegally voted Bashorian Clement
post #23: Meeko voted Kaiveran
post #36: Kaiveran voted Guiri
post #58: Mahaloth voted Texcat
post #93: Bashorian Clement voted Kaiveran

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

guri/Kaiveran are not w/w
meeko/Kaiveran are not w/w

Without some great theatre anyway

I agree with this but it doesn't matter until we find the third party.

Because otherwise any one of them could be hostile and still playing a perfect "town" game because of lack of knowledge.

(I just think Meeko is town though, it's Kaiveran/Guiri I'm really referring to here.)

[Bashorian Clement]

Originally Posted by guiri

I was sure I found a post by you elsewhere where you stated you tend to be more wordy as scum and find you need to rein yourself in, but alas it’s disappeared.
Nice save at the end there, we’ll played, it was close. Good to see your Town meta, a little less wordy in general and only one unfulfilled promise.

In your vote post I found the “I think I remember guiri's vote ending up on charlie anyways, but I'm not sure.” and the explanation: “What's there to explain? I thought I remembered you voting charlie later but I wanted to verify before making any conclusion based on it.” hollow or staged, you telegraphed your case on me here and you may even have killed PCM to frame me.

How are you enjoying the site so far?

Thanks, I was looking through D1. I’d have sucked at that game, can barely make toast…
Yes, so that’s two of us, I don’t believe he was widely town-read and so, in my opinion, an unlikely target for the scum-kill, leaving the Vanta hiding behind the scum target a more plausible scenario.

Meeko -they/them/their and Kai -ey/em/eir, apologies for mispronouning you in the past. On MafiaUniverse you can choose your pronouns and have them appear on your profile to avoid confusion, maybe we can request a similar functionality here?

@Meeko, sending furry hugs your way. I love the idea that you think Kaiveran got your scum role.

And the sun rose in the East?

I wrote a thesis in D1#106.
See above, I don’t see PCM as a viable scum target or why Vanta would hide there, and found no hint of a breadcrumb from Vanta to indicate he might be dead due to his choice, so my deduction is that he hid behind one of his town reads who was the scum NK target. It’s a theory, but fits better than PCM being the scum-kill with Vanta hiding behind him. Oh, and doctors/blockers/trigger shy SKs. Nah, forget that last one.

I briefly entertained the idea that they were masons due to their snuggling, but then Meeko claimed VT and has since distanced himself from Kaiveran.

A reason that I don't like multiquote in mafia on this board is the difficulty to respond to one thing. Here my question is wrt second snippet from the bottom, why weren't there three kills? If Vanta hid behind town, he couldn't have been targeted and killed, so Vanta either hid behind scum or Precambrian, right? In that scenario why wasn't there an additional kill? It could've been blocked, or the other anti-town force didn't kill, but no one seems to be addressing this.

[Bashorian Clement]

Actually the second paragraph from the bottom.

[Bashorian Clement]

Originally Posted by Archangel

I agree with this but it doesn't matter until we find the third party.

Because otherwise any one of them could be hostile and still playing a perfect "town" game because of lack of knowledge.

(I just think Meeko is town though, it's Kaiveran/Guiri I'm really referring to here.)

This is a good point. If there is another anti-town force, I can't say any two aren't w/w.

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

A reason that I don't like multiquote in mafia on this board is the difficulty to respond to one thing. Here my question is wrt second snippet from the bottom, why weren't there three kills? If Vanta hid behind town, he couldn't have been targeted and killed, so Vanta either hid behind scum or Precambrian, right? In that scenario why wasn't there an additional kill? It could've been blocked, or the other anti-town force didn't kill, but no one seems to be addressing this.

Ah, right, confused, scrap that theory then.

BTW I think I may have found Vanta’s crumb:

Originally Posted by Vanta Black

I'm gonna stand by my policy non-vote of Kaiveran toDay but if they don't get back here toot sweet I could get behind Kaiveran in some future phase.

[guiri]

For reference, holding added here and in previous post:

Originally Posted by Eristic Widgeon

Welcome to the game, you are Town Hider.
Each Night, you may choose a player to hide behind. If they are scum, you will die. Otherwise, no powers targeting you will affect you that Night, but any power targeting the player you are hiding behind will affect both you and them.
You win when all anti-Town forces have been eliminated.

It’s not a slam dunk, I admit.

[Meeko]

Originally Posted by guiri

Ah, right, confused, scrap that theory then.

BTW I think I may have found Vanta’s crumb:

I've never been more conflicted. I include posts from earlier today in that assessment.

[Meeko]

That has to be the crumb.

One would not use the word "phase" naturally there, unless they are informed by P.I.S. intentionally or not.

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Archangel

If you want, you can paste this as well:

Voting History:
post #4: guiri voted Kaiveran
post #4: guiri illegally voted Bashorian Clement
post #23: Meeko voted Kaiveran
post #36: Kaiveran voted Guiri
post #58: Mahaloth voted Texcat
post #93: Bashorian Clement voted Kaiveran

Less than 24 hours left in the Day and 6 non-voters: Archangel, Colby11, Lightfoot, Mordenkainen, SilverJan and TexCat.

[Meeko]

Ok.

So, I gather from context that w/w is ....a tortured way to say "of shared alignment".

Whence w/w ?

Because that just reminds me of that brief and shining moment, in March 2020, where I celebrated having lost 100 pounds.


Before, you know, 2020 happened.

Fairly certain I've found at least half of that weight back.

[Meeko]

I mean... If it's Wolf On Wolf,

I think we have enough people here to insist that it's closer to fox on fox.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

~
A reason that I don't like multiquote in mafia on this board is the difficulty to respond to one thing. Here my question is wrt second snippet from the bottom, why weren't there three kills? If Vanta hid behind town, he couldn't have been targeted and killed, so Vanta either hid behind scum or Precambrian, right? In that scenario why wasn't there an additional kill? It could've been blocked, or the other anti-town force didn't kill, but no one seems to be addressing this.

BOLDING MINE
I didn't check the time line but you now know ( per the Mod) how Vanta's power worked right?

Yes if there was an additional killing power they could have held off or been thwarted ( blocked in some manner)
to my underlined bit
that is hard to address without a power role outing their existence so what are you wanting to see?

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by guiri

~
BTW I think I may have found Vanta’s crumb:

I see what you are looking at but as someone who has used a turn of phrase unintentionally it could be a red herring.

I posted that I couldn't track what someone was saying - I was NKed straight away and I was vanilla

It seems Vanta was saying they could vote Kai at a later date but with their ( Vanta's ) role it seems highly unlikely they would hide behind what they felt could be a Scum.


If that makes sense?

[Bashorian Clement]

I don't want any reveals unless someone wants to do so. What I'm asking is:

Why has no one asked why there weren't three kills?

Am I missing something?

[Bashorian Clement]

I should reword that. I don't want PRs to reveal themselves at this time, unless they think they absolutely need to.

[Meeko]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

A reason that I don't like multiquote in mafia on this board is the difficulty to respond to one thing. Here my question is wrt second snippet from the bottom, why weren't there three kills? If Vanta hid behind town, he couldn't have been targeted and killed, so Vanta either hid behind scum or Precambrian, right? In that scenario why wasn't there an additional kill? It could've been blocked, or the other anti-town force didn't kill, but no one seems to be addressing this.

What then, do you make if the entire "I'll have to get behind Kaiveran later" Crumb?

[Bashorian Clement]

It's likely he hid behind Kaiveran is my guess, which makes Kaiveran a maf.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

I don't want any reveals unless someone wants to do so. What I'm asking is:

Why has no one asked why there weren't three kills?

Am I missing something?

I didn't think three was warranted- two was enough

If you are privy to another role that could cause a NK that was somehow thwarted feel free to share

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Is it ust me or does AA seem a bit low profile?

SilverJan seems a tad muted as well?

Could ust be me
I need to pay more attention to who is playing this one - my planet is distracted terribly

AA seems normal to me. I have not noticed Silverjan enough to comment.

Originally Posted by Archangel

So (regarding TexCat and Mahaloth) this is why I see a difference. She was scum in that game and just put a naked vote on Mahaloth, who was town.

In this game she also put a vote on Mahaloth but it had a reason.

Huh, I guess. Worth noting.

I think Bashorian is odd for just jumping on the Kaiveran train there.

[TexCat]

Hiding behind Kai might make sense since Vanta would have been looking to hide behind a townie who wasn't likely to be the NK.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by TexCat

Hiding behind Kai might make sense since Vanta would have been looking to hide behind a townie who wasn't likely to be the NK.

I didn't read Vanta as Town reading Kai


I would vote Bashorian as well at this point.

[TexCat]

Yeah, it's certainly not clear that Vanta town read Kai, but I do contend that Kai was not a likely NK.

[TexCat]

What's up with the votes for me? Why the revote Mahaloth? Reasons for your vote LF, or was it just my speculation about Vanta?

[Archangel]

@Bashorian Clement where are you getting that there should have been 3 deaths? Explain it to me like I’m 5 please.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by TexCat

What's up with the votes for me? Why the revote Mahaloth? Reasons for your vote LF, or was it just my speculation about Vanta?

Your observations o Vanta are off base and a handy way to set up a lynch bankrupt? that will not hurt you
pushing of buttons and a desire to resolve the 'tie' from yesterDay

[Bashorian Clement]

Originally Posted by Archangel

@Bashorian Clement where are you getting that there should have been 3 deaths? Explain it to me like I’m 5 please.

The consensus seems to be that there are two anti-town forces. Hence, two night kills.

Vanta could not have been killed by mafia if he had hid behind a Townie, unless that Townie were killed. Vanta dies if hiding behind scum. Therefore we know that Vanta either hid behind Precambrian or hid behind a maf.

That does not account for the speculative second anti-town force. The second anti-town force, if it exists, presumably has a night kill. We had just two dead bodies. One was presumably killed by Anti-Town Faction A. Precambrian was presumably Anti-Town Faction A's night kill. Vanta was killed by either hiding behind the Anti-Town Faction A kill or by hiding behind mafia. That does not account for a kill by Anti-Town Faction B.

And by faction, that could be an individual player like a serial killer.

So we have a kill by Anti-Town Faction A.
We have a kill not by an Anti-Town Faction.
We do not have a kill by Anti-Town Faction B

The thing that could account for this scenario is if Precambrian was killed by Anti-Town Faction A, Vanta hid behind mafia or hid behind Precambrian, and we don't have an Anti-Town Faction B.

[Bashorian Clement]

And, of course, the Anti-Town Faction B's kill, if it exists, could have been blocked, docced, etc.

[Mordenkainen]

Evening all.

Just finished a read of the Day's activity. I need to digest and reread. I have an appointment which will keep me out all morning. Back in the late afternoon sometime.

Anyway, on the two Night kills, I can see a few options.

Vanta hid behind PCM. who got shot.
Vanta hid behind a Mafiate (in which case Kaiveren becomes the prima facie first candidate).
There were two separate killers operating last Night; the Mafia and a Town Vig or Serial Killer.

As an aside, why assume that a Third party had to be some sort of killing machine? There are nonhostile 3P roles, although many of them (eg a Survivor) tend to have very hard rows to hoe.

Sleep is calling so night all. Back after my appt.

[Bashorian Clement]

Originally Posted by Mordenkainen

Evening all.

Just finished a read of the Day's activity. I need to digest and reread. I have an appointment which will keep me out all morning. Back in the late afternoon sometime.

Anyway, on the two Night kills, I can see a few options.

Vanta hid behind PCM. who got shot.
Vanta hid behind a Mafiate (in which case Kaiveren becomes the prima facie first candidate).
There were two separate killers operating last Night; the Mafia and a Town Vig or Serial Killer.

As an aside, why assume that a Third party had to be some sort of killing machine? There are nonhostile 3P roles, although many of them (eg a Survivor) tend to have very hard rows to hoe.

Sleep is calling so night all. Back after my appt.

No one is assuming a second anti-town force has a kill. But if one exists, it is likely it does.

Vanta could not have been killed if hiding behind Town unless that Town was Precambrian. Vanta left a fairly strong crumb, one that tracked exactly what the role was, that hiding behind Kaiveran was being considered. LightFoot, however, could be correct that it was coincidental. And the crumb was left during Day 1, rather than Night 1. With night talk operative, leaving a crumb at night would seem to me to be preferable. But even if we discount the "crumb," and Vanta did not hide behind Kaiveran, we still are compelled to consider the scenario that was laid out: A killed Precambrian, Vanta hid behind maf (or exactly Precambrian), and B did not kill or was blocked (or does not exist).

[Meeko]

Do not understand why there is conversation above any beyond Kai. Why there are votes elsewhere. Period. Full Stop. FOS on all of that.

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

No one is assuming a second anti-town force has a kill. But if one exists, it is likely it does.

Vanta could not have been killed if hiding behind Town unless that Town was Precambrian. Vanta left a fairly strong crumb, one that tracked exactly what the role was, that hiding behind Kaiveran was being considered. LightFoot, however, could be correct that it was coincidental. And the crumb was left during Day 1, rather than Night 1. With night talk operative, leaving a crumb at night would seem to me to be preferable. But even if we discount the "crumb," and Vanta did not hide behind Kaiveran, we still are compelled to consider the scenario that was laid out: A killed Precambrian, Vanta hid behind maf (or exactly Precambrian), and B did not kill or was blocked (or does not exist).

There also exists the simple option that Vanta did not use his power, was the scum kill directly, and PCM was a vig or SK target, no need for lucky doctors or blockers.

[Kaiveran]

mmrowrf grumble grumble.

I am in an exceedingly shitty mood as a result of recent developments and clearly signaled escalations into removing even more rights of concern to me.

It is difficult to even care about anything at the moment. Even if I did execute my not-so-brilliant plan to leave Weimar America in a timely manner, there's a very real chance that I'll be in criminal jeopardy before the next puppet takes the stage in 2025. And all the Dems seem to be doing right now is blue-colored nothing.

I'll try to give you a good show of it, but no promises eh?

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by guiri

In your vote post I found the “I think I remember guiri's vote ending up on charlie anyways, but I'm not sure.” and the explanation: “What's there to explain? I thought I remembered you voting charlie later but I wanted to verify before making any conclusion based on it.” hollow or staged, you telegraphed your case on me here and you may even have killed PCM to frame me.

I mean, fair enough on the first part I guess, but I just didn't want to jump to conclustion.

I don't remember anything that would link you and PCM together either.

Originally Posted by guiri

How are you enjoying the site so far?

Based deadlines.
Chill atmosphere.
A fair diversity of playstyles.
An apparent willingness to keep trying out new things rather than just running the same few boring setups all the time.
Warm-colored default theme (sick of every website being Up All Night Blue)

Editor not recognizing alt-codes is a huge pet peeve.
Gonna take a while to get used to the excessively jokey emoticons. (Still stunned that there is not a single forum database out there that doesn't have a fucking freakout whenever emojis get involved.)
Sometimes it's so laid-back it's almost comatose.

So on balance, if my will to continue playing IM/UR abides, I think Giraffe Boards will become a mainstay of mine. That's a big if, considering I'm mentally preparing to play a sick twisted form of this game in real life, with potentially tragic consequences. But it is an if.

Originally Posted by guiri

Thanks, I was looking through D1. I’d have sucked at that game, can barely make toast…
Yes, so that’s two of us, I don’t believe he was widely town-read and so, in my opinion, an unlikely target for the scum-kill, leaving the Vanta hiding behind the scum target a more plausible scenario.

whoops, seems i've skipped a bit, I'll have to look at the big multi-player post I now see up there for context on that first thing.

I never got to go into the issue of PCM D1. I don't think he was widely townread, but he wasn't widely scumread either. I did briefly consider that Vanta might be an SK kill, but that would require him to not have used his power D1, which I wrote off as a clearly suboptimal move.

Furthermore, I think there are possibilities here we all seem to neglecting:
1) All the hinting about a 3P is just a big fat red herring, there's just one scum team vs. one town as usual,
2) Again, ice-cold read from me because I have no meta on anyone, but if I attempt to put myself in Vanta's perspective, especially after seeing a Cop flip, hiding behind PCM makes lots of sense given the above. If Cop is dead, I become a Cop substitute, and that usually begins with the pool of nullish players. Less likely to kill me, more likely to bear useful results.

(alternate perspectives welcome, of course)

Originally Posted by guiri

Meeko -they/them/their and Kai -ey/em/eir, apologies for mispronouning you in the past. On MafiaUniverse you can choose your pronouns and have them appear on your profile to avoid confusion, maybe we can request a similar functionality here?

That would be very neat, meow!

Also, "mispronouning" – I'll have to remember that word. It's much more precise and doesn't carry the implicit accusatory tones of "misgendering". Save that for when someone's clearly and deliberately being an asshole about it.

----

From here it looks like I'm gonna have to be kind and rewind to my last posts to make more sense of all this.

aaaaand I'm getting too hungry to focus. BBL.

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by Kaiveran

That's a big if, considering I'm mentally preparing to play a sick twisted form of this game in real life, with potentially tragic consequences.

I would prefer not to.

[Silverjan]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Is it ust me or does AA seem a bit low profile?

SilverJan seems a tad muted as well?

Could ust be me
I need to pay more attention to who is playing this one - my planet is distracted terribly

I was a tad muted in the last game too and Dizzy killed me for it. She did apologise. I am trying not to let games take over my life any more and I find it much less stressful. Okay, going back to catch up.

I just want to say that I do agree with not giving the new guy a pass just because he's new, it has happened more than once that the new guy is scum.

[Silverjan]

Originally Posted by Archangel

Also, though, my reading of the rules makes it impossible that Vanta hid behind PCM and was killed because of that.

If I am actually reading Vanta's role wrong, please explain to me like I'm 5 because that seems pretty clearly impossible to me.

I'm not following you here. Why would it have been impossible for Vanta to have hidden behind PCM?

[Kaiveran]

meant to



in my last post, but apparently it doesn't work like some other sites, the name is non-optional.

Things have been way too static, IMO. I'm beginning to get the sneaking suspicion that it's less likely that wolves are any of the big talkers toDay and are just hanging back waiting for us to implode.

But let me investigate further.

[Silverjan]

Originally Posted by Bashorian Clement

This is something that jumped out at me, not necessarily LightFoot's post but guiri's. How do you explain the kills last Night if there is more than one frooce of darkness?

I must say that I wasn't taking a 3P into consideration and yet there does seem to be one because gnarlys reveal says that he would have got a true reading on a 3P. If Vanta his behind either scum or PCM then there would probably have been 3 NK's. If Vanta had hidden behind PCM and both scum and the 3P targeted PCM then that could explain only 2 NKs. I'm sure there are more explanations but I can't think of any at the moment. Oh yes, one more, what if Vanta was the target of either scum or the 3P and she had hidden behind scum anyway.

[Silverjan]

Originally Posted by Mordenkainen

Evening all.

Just finished a read of the Day's activity. I need to digest and reread. I have an appointment which will keep me out all morning. Back in the late afternoon sometime.

Anyway, on the two Night kills, I can see a few options.

Vanta hid behind PCM. who got shot.
Vanta hid behind a Mafiate (in which case Kaiveren becomes the prima facie first candidate).
There were two separate killers operating last Night; the Mafia and a Town Vig or Serial Killer.

As an aside, why assume that a Third party had to be some sort of killing machine? There are nonhostile 3P roles, although many of them (eg a Survivor) tend to have very hard rows to hoe.

Sleep is calling so night all. Back after my appt.

I think the 3P has to be anti Town just because of the way the PM was written, if they weren't a threat why would we need them eliminated in order to win?

[Kaiveran]

-----
So I'm just gonna comment off the cuff on guiri's investigation wall, and any other post that GB destroys when citing in quotes.

BC, I admit, was a bit of a blind spot for me previously. The fluffiness and somewhat narrow footprint + lack of any comment on a big stretch of the day is something that classically pings me as wolf.

Interested to see if Archangel elaborates on that tone-read of BC later.

Honestly unsure of that Morden interpretation. It could be wolfy self-focus for sure, but it could just be struggling to articulate a real read as well. Follow up anticipated.

He was also pretty early on slaying TexCat, so it's unlikely they're aligned.

Definitely an improvement on content level from BC and personally I read the changes as more likely evolving reads over the course of the Day. D1s are nearly always in high flux, unless someone fucks up real bad real early.

Colby has been another blind spot of mine. I mostly concur with the analysis that his posts seem okay, and he does have an OOG explanation for his absence. I suppose the PIS read might be a fair point, and I have had minor heebie-jeebs of possible passive wolves before my grand statement.

But there's really no reasoning here, just vibes. Which is why I implored him to try stepping it up in a recent post.

The last bit concerning Mahaloth might be a fair point. In fact in the early stages of this Day it is something I had in the back of my mind, how he just maintained the read without explaining it. You're right, the bar must rise.

----

Originally Posted by Archangel

@guiri first off this is the move TexCat made in the previous game I was referring to:

Originally Posted by Archangel

So (regarding TexCat and Mahaloth) this is why I see a difference. She was scum in that game and just put a naked vote on Mahaloth, who was town.

In this game she also put a vote on Mahaloth but it had a reason.

I seriously cannot be fucked to go digging into a whole other game for context so I'm just gonna trust Archangel's read makes sense and isn't as simple or mechanistic as it seems.

Seems to have skipped the part about BC though. (very very minor, as it might qualify as "buried".)

Originally Posted by Archangel

It is not possible that Vanta hid behind PCM and was killed with him, because Vanta's role says he would die if he hid behind scum.

So actually we need to go look and see who Vanta was town-reading.

Can't recall if this got clarified by EW, but just in case not: when a Hider hides behind a townie, all actions that affect that townie also affect him, including kills. So it is entirely possible that he just got unlucky with PCM.

Mind you, following the other possibility and hunting in his townreads is a totally valid approach and I encourage it. You certainly know Vanta better than I do, so you're probably better equipped to answer the question of whether he would've preferred to use his power as a pseudo-BP instead of a pseudo-Cop (as I assumed in my previous post).

Originally Posted by Archangel

@Kaiveran re your post #36 here, I am writing this from memory and I have serious memory issues, but I believe that at the time I posted "not enough data" on Gnarlycharlie he had only made one post. (It was the post where he voted guiri.)

And I discussed Charlie's meta IMO (that he often lacks reliable internet, so his lack of participation was a null tell) elsewhere.

I was null-reading Charlie. I made a snap decision to follow Jan (who also knows him well and has played with him for a long time) when I thought Day was ending early, because she found the vote really suspicious. And then I got back too late to do anything about it.

(None of this is a defense of me, it seems you're reading the thread either selectively or in a disorganized manner, so I'm answering what you questioned in this post in one place for you.)

Originally Posted by Archangel

Sorry @Kaiveran, I see you got there by the end of the post. I don't do well with long posts but I'm trying.

Yeah, it's all good in the hood here.

(That reminds me, I should probably break this up.)

[Archangel]

@Kaiveran hugs and I love your references. (Bartleby is GOAT.)

Back in game: my read on TexCat is neither simple nor mechanistic. I just don’t know how to articulate it. I perceive small differences in tone, and I change my mind very fast. I’m going to try in this case to be more specific for you because you don’t know me (oh the earworm):

1. There was a subtle difference in her vote for Mahaloth last game and her vote for him this game. Last one was naked and strategic (I don’t know if you saw this but I was scum with her there, she was nailing down a mizzle we needed). Here she voted and gave a reason. I didn’t like the reason (here) but it does seem a normal TexCat policy thing.

2. I don’t trust Mahaloth here (see 4 in a minute) and part of what I do that I find hard to articulate is to see how certain individuals react to other certain individuals. For example me and Vanta- if I’m town and we’re arguing really hard, he’s almost certainly going to flip town. That’s why I unvoted him and I was right about that.

3. I don’t think you’re scum here. If I’m wrong I have egg on my face and the thing gives me pause is that Meeko who knows you better and whom I think is town does, but I just don’t. So part of my equation is how people are reacting to you, and if you’re town, TexCat not pushing you makes her look townie to me. (If I’m wrong about you then I would think TexCat is a scum mate from this.)

4. I don’t like the run up on her now and I liked her reaction to Charlie’s flip, it seemed real to me.

5. I absolutely think the thing from Vanta was a breadcrumb. That’s breaking my mind right now because it makes me think I need to vote you but I don’t want to.

6. If I’m not voting you I have to either vote TexCat strategically, because she said she’s not a town power, or vote guiri because he’s been coming for you the whole game. Part of me wants to vote guiri because he can always fool me.

7. Or I could vote Mahaloth because I think he’s just scum here. But there are no votes for him and I am town and I need my vote to matter toDay.

[Archangel]

And I’ll check in and update but my participation will NOT be high today.

I have a lot of work to do today and my office is still in an uproar, we had actual physical violence there (for which I was present but did not participate, because I’m sure some of you would wonder &#128514 and the repercussions have been serious, and I have been tasked with making many of them happen.

[Archangel]

Also Re my comments on guiri, this is going to be brief because I’ve once more made myself late to work because of hyperfocusing on Mafia.

I don’t think guiri is scum with teammates. He’s got fluidity of thought which doesn’t indicate PIS.

I do think he might be 3P.

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by Eristic Widgeon

Yes, if Vanta hid behind town that was killed by scum, he would die. If he hid behind town that was investigated or protected or whatever, he would also be investigated, etc.

Or if he hid behind scum, he would die.

But if he hid behind town and HE was targeted by scum, he would live. Likewise any other powers targeting him directly would fail.

And yeah, he did clear it up, so pardon me doing the redun-dance earlier. But I think I'm right to be positive on Archangel in light of all this. Seems like a sincere enough effort to suss things out.

-----

And then we get to Meeko's battery of posts.

Which I felt my heart drop reading, for several different reasons.

OOG :: I must absolutely, positively level with you here @Meeko.

Not a single thing I say in this indent will be fake, cap, bullshit, hogwash, or hot-chip-eating lies. I promise you.

You are absolutely valid, first of all. And I can tell you have a good heart. (the real you, of course, not the tangentially related character you have to play in an IM/UR game.)

It is never too late to start asking the important questions. It is never too late to stop blaming yourself for being stunted by those who've had power over you, and aimed to keep you small.

Nobody should be able to define you except YOU. If someone can't parse the fact that your body and your identity are yours to shape however you wish, that is THEIR problem, and it is absolutely unconscionable and disgusting that a minority of reactionary fuckheads are intent on making it everyone else's problem.

I do like you, and have enjoyed playing with you so far.

I have the utmost respect and sympathy for what you're going through, b/c I'm going through it too.

I feel the hopelessness, the rage, the apathy, the feeling of being lost and alone with a violent storm rolling over the horizon.

I understand completely how this comparatively trivial and silly role-playing guessing game can look in the face of all that. How you could think this is a dumb-ass waste of time that gets you no closer to shelter or peace, and how it could even get in the way of that.

At the very least, I think it's very visible how much of a slog this game has become for me.

But look what I've been able to do in spite of that.

And look at what you're doing in this post.

I can 100% understand being wary of being pocketed, and/or wanting to question a core read of yours, because shit has visibly gone pear-shaped for town. This is a button you should always be willing to press in this situation.

I can 100% understand how, based on a sound reevaluation, you can later decide that Vanta Black left a crumb that spews me wolf, and therefore it's optimal play to get me dead immediately.

But when I ask for clarity on the re-evaluation, the core of this read change, and you give me nothing but mud in response, that's a problem.

And it's baffling, b/c you acknowledge that this is mostly your baggage. You acknowlege that "this is not how things work", so I assume you're familiar with gambler's fallacy.

And yet.

AND YET.

You claim the core of your flip onto me is, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Meeko

I did not get a scum role this game. I'm thinking that you, Kaiveran, got """my""" scum role.

With all due respect, this is not a sound re-evaluation. This is utter fantasyland nonsense.

If you were not in any condition to actually articulate your reasoning, fine. But if you're town, I was hoping you'd at least be honest about that. You'd have said "nope, rational brain gone fishin', try again later."

But you didn't. And with your latest posts pushing for my death literally as hard as possible based on this, allowing no mercy and no quarter...it's just plain bad, hun. There's no other way to slice it.

Which, as painful as this is to admit, tells me your IM/UR alter-ego is probably not living in the realm of truth. Not this game. Vegas!Meeko does not have solid ground to stand on.

-----

Originally Posted by Archangel

In my experience BC comes across sounding snippy when he's town.

Here's the quote for that specific question:

When I reread it though it sounds less snippy than cautious.

So I don't agree with my initial read on BC without further input from him. Downgrading him to neutral because this could go either way.

I guess the process looks pretty good here. Honestly I am really drained after that last response. But goddammit, I'm committed to see this through now, at least until BC posts a bunch later.

NETA :: And maybe to respond to the latest menchie.

----

Originally Posted by Meeko

With no offense intended to Kai I am still largely questioning my gender. I have leading candidates for answers, but havent moved into them.

Does anyone have the link to our playgroup's spreadsheet? Gender is advised on that, and I feel as if Kai would like to see it. Possibly fill it out emself

I really hope I didn't piss in eir oatmeal too much.

Trust me, I can piss in my own oatmeal just fine.

I mentioned making a cold sheet earlier as an idle suggestion. I do not have the wherewithal to make one nor do I know the site policy on linking to changeable media like Gdocs.(nudge nudge @Eristic Widgeon). Maybe tomorrow.

[Kaiveran]

Originally Posted by Archangel

And I’ll check in and update but my participation will NOT be high today.

I have a lot of work to do today and my office is still in an uproar, we had actual physical violence there (for which I was present but did not participate, because I’m sure some of you would wonder &#128514 and the repercussions have been serious, and I have been tasked with making many of them happen.

Sweet mother of fuck, I do hope things calm down over there.

*whiny purry hug*

[Kaiveran]

i'm going to throw up

[guiri]

Originally Posted by Archangel

5. I absolutely think the thing from Vanta was a breadcrumb. That’s breaking my mind right now because it makes me think I need to vote you but I don’t want to.

Can you offer a world where he made that breadcrumb but did not hide behind scum Kaiveran?

FWIW I'm still not 3rd party.